Stop America Bashing!

[Power To The People]

Hello, comrades.

I wanted to say that it is my belief that all this anti Americanism is not only reactionary but it alienates most of the American working class.
For example alot of non politicalpeople parrot things such as Americans are Ignorant and are bad for letting their country invade nations all around the world, this coming from brits whose government have acted more genocidally than any other on earth.

But the worrying thing is communists have this anti american attitude, especially in europe, buti say to them, because workwers in america do not have free health care, dont have free education or benefits that can help as much as us in europe, they are just as if not more oppressed than us and we should join with them and unite in solidarity, not act all snobishly and mock them for apparently lacking culture or being religeous, to do this would be a disservice to socialist ideals, and would tarnish and blacken the movement as a whole, Mao said it best in the red book about uniting with US workers.

[Comrade B]

No one is attacking Americans.

The thing that is evil is the United States, because it doesn't have health care, free higher education and assistance, and it invades countries all over the world.
Also xenophobia and religious zealotry is common here.

America, and its culture are to be damned because it is intolerant, violent, and imperialistic. I don't think any people on here hate Americans in general though.

[RadioRaheem84]

I agree to a large extent but a huge portion of the white working class in America has stubbornly refused to acknowledge that capitalism is the major problem and believe that their interests coincide with the interests of the rich.

This isn't even a matter of excusing their behavior because of propaganda or what not. They've willingly let themselves be bought and sold by corporate interests. After all of the times their leaders were proven to be habitual liars and ignorant pawns, they still want to believe the lies and think that anything to the contrary is a falsehood.

These people are working on religious faith now, not logic or any plain reasoning. Conservatism in America is a religion.

[Power To The People]

Raheem all nations have the same rotten capitalistic belief, that is why we do not have socialism, this is not unique to America, it is more at home in europe, where people who live near me for example believe Britain is great and its imperialism has helped the world, these npeople aint evil, they just havent developed class conciousness yet.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Lowkey said it best. "I'm not anti-American, America is anti-me"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4OI0GUCI_A


Really though, what you call "anti-Americanism" is necessary, would you rather the crimes of the greatest empire of our time go unnoticed? We can either highlight the problems with the USA, or we can ignore them completely, the latter would be irresponsible so the former is the natural choice. We don't hate Americans, we just hate everything your country stands for.

[Power To The People]

Im not saying we shouldnt hate the USA government, but we shouldnt hate the workers, they are exploited and oppressed, i support the people of iraq against imperialism, but i didnt support sadam, i hate the US hegemonic empire but i love and support its working class.

[Robocommie]

Comrade, as an American, I think I can speak for my countrymen in saying that while we appreciate the support and your courtesy, I think in most cases non-Americans understand that the troubles caused by the US are the work of the United States government, and not it's citizens.

[Wanted Man]

Im not saying we shouldnt hate the USA government, but we shouldnt hate the workers, they are exploited and oppressed, i support the people of iraq against imperialism, but i didnt support sadam, i hate the US hegemonic empire but i love and support its working class.

Okay, but who is proposing otherwise?

[Power To The People]

well all my family always make anti american comments, from how they are all fat, to how they have no sense of humor, to how they have a backwards culture, they dont critisize the government, but the workers, which pisses me off.

When i was online about a year ago i was talking to socialists on msn and i first noticed an apparent hatred of the americans, even the workers, which is so counter productive, its just as bad as that 3rd world bullshit that says we are all petty exploiters, yet if you come on my estate i can guarante we dont have all that much.

[gorillafuck]

Who supports them? Duh. Look at them shopping. Smiling. Having fun.
What the hell are you talking about?

I agree with everyone who has responded saying that most (if not all) people here don't actually hate Americans, they just hate the United States government. Though I will point out that once I saw an RCP table with stickers that said "stop thinking like Americans, start thinking about the world!" and that struck me as having a hatred of the people in the USA. But that's just the RCP.

[Crusade]

Comrade, as an American, I think I can speak for my countrymen in saying that while we appreciate the support and your courtesy, I think in most cases non-Americans understand that the troubles caused by the US are the work of the United States government, and not it's citizens.


And we voted these people into office. If we're a "democracy" and everything, I'd assume we'd be held accountable for putting these people in power. Not implying that we're a democracy, but that's what we brag about abroad so I'd assume people would believe we're at fault for them being in power.

[Power To The People]

Democracy is the greatest shell for capitalist tyranny

Capitalism and democracy are not synonymos, thats what i say when an american workers says he lives in a democracy, i say vote for the democrats, if you want a democracy for those rich enough to take part in it

[jake williams]

No one is attacking Americans.
Bullshit, lots of people do.

I'm not saying that there aren't plenty of people, inside America and outside, who understand quite clearly that the government is not the fault of the people, and that in fact the people are a major, though not the primary, victim of the government. But that doesn't mean there aren't a whole lot of people, on the radical left included, who in fact target a lot of their hate at American people as such. One might consider, for example, those who believe, I'm tempted to argue as a consequence as opposed to rationally, that the "first world" working class is totally hopeless as a revolutionary class.

[Crusade]

Everyone should check out the documentary 'Why We Fight'

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=9219858826421983682&ei=XC9CS7bOOIvM-AbJxK3vCw&q=why+we+fight+2005&hl=nl&view=3&dur=3#

Says a lot about the American empire and the military industrial complex. :)

[Power To The People]

The only reason i brought this up comrade is because i think if the left carries on with its anti american ways it will make the american socialists movement impotent and with Avakians mob slamming religeon every 5 minutes the left just screams alienation.

[Argument]

I don't hate Americans, I don't even dislike them. Some are nice, some aren't, just as some Swedes are nice, and some aren't. My problem is the government, the state, and how it cooperates with the capitalists, how it oppresses its citizens and how it attempts to nearly destroy the rest of the world with its imperialistic politics.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

What the hell are you talking about?

I agree with everyone who has responded saying that most (if not all) people here don't actually hate Americans, they just hate the United States government. Though I will point out that once I saw an RCP table with stickers that said "stop thinking like Americans, start thinking about the world!" and that struck me as having a hatred of the people in the USA. But that's just the RCP.

I don't think that is necessarily hatred of everyone in the U.S.; it is a fact that a lot of reactionary ideas are a bit more popular in parts of the U.S. than elsewhere, and that what can be generally thought of as the "american mentality" is one of individualism, at times religious fundamentalism, ignorance, and so on, but I think everyone well realises - at least here - that this is a gross simplification and that the prevalence of these kinds of reactionary thought are not something we should blame the workers and people themselves for.

American culture is rotten, most culture today is rotten, but again, I don't think anyone is blaming the people themselves for this; this is the product of capitalism and the system it carries and so on, not any particular fault of the people living in the U.S.

It's just that the U.S., by virtue of being the central bastion of capitalism and imperialism, becomes the primary target of criticism (even the UK is but a loyal follower). News come to revolve, even in far-off places, a lot about things that happen in the U.S., because the dominance affects even things not directly related. Sometimes some elitist somewhere might argue that this is all the result of the people in the U.S. just being "stupid", but this ignores obvious material realities.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I fucking love America.

That said I don't feel much hatred here, it's not like much offensive is said here towards different peoples.

[khad]

I got two words for you: Odnochnoye plavanye (Solo Voyage)

This 1985 film was the only film in history in which Soviet soldiers were depicted fighting Americans. Often called the "Soviet Rambo" by smug Westerners who want to suggest that there's some degree of moral equivalency between the two.

Reality check: In that film the USSR was stepping in to save the United States from a madman traitor who was killing Americans.

And this is the ONLY FILM IN SOVIET HISTORY that showed combat between Americans and Soviets.

When even the USSR upheld American nationalism, I say there isn't enough America bashing.

[Dimentio]

It is true that there is a segment of people who heavily dislike America, christianity and other symbols of western culture. These people should not be equated with everyday leftists, even if a lot of them are having left-liberal attitudes, and often are found within the academic establishment or cultural sector in Europe and America. Especially during Bush's days, everything was about the USA being patriarchal, imperialistic and supporting genocide everywhere.

Nevertheless, I do not think anti-americanism is a general trait of leftism. I rather think that attitude is a result of a mixture between snobbyism and a permanentised adolescent revolt against symbols of power. I also think it is terribly destructive and not one bit constructive to focus all energy on just hating one country, one religion or one human culture. It is anti-intellectualism disguised as intellectualism.

As khad has written above here, anti-americanism was never prevalent in the Soviet Union. Actually, ordinary Russians probably more viewed West Germany as the prime enemy. It was first with the Kosovo War in 1999 when anti-americanism became fashionable in Russia, and then in nationalist circles.

[Spawn of Stalin]

The only reason i brought this up comrade is because i think if the left carries on with its anti american ways it will make the american socialists movement impotent and with Avakians mob slamming religeon every 5 minutes the left just screams alienation.

So should we change our politics? We are communists, naturally most communists are 1. against imperialism, and 2. against religion. I don't see anything anti-American about what we do

[Power To The People]

Your not listening comrade, my point isnt that leftists denounce state imperialism and organised religeon its that , some communists seem to have a hatred of the American workers,, that what my thread was aimed at.

[The Vegan Marxist]

As an American, I will say this. Yes, I am anti-America. As I am anti-Russia, anti-China, anti-Yugoslavia, etc. etc. I am not anti-people, though. I am anti-borders, anti-countries, anti-flags. Anything that supports the nationalist views of the separation of people I will go against it.

[Power To The People]

again what does that have to do withmy thread brother, im not arguing with that.

[turquino]

Though I will point out that once I saw an RCP table with stickers that said "stop thinking like Americans, start thinking about the world!" and that struck me as having a hatred of the people in the USA. But that's just the RCP.
If a subdued sticker about being a citizen of the world offends a yank ‘socialist’, what does that say about the rest of them?

[Obrero Rebelde]

again what does that have to do withmy thread brother, im not arguing with that.

As an American, I think people from other countries outside of the USA have a resentment against our government and economic empire for good reason. As to whether they hate Americans in general or American workers in particular?

I think hatred for Americans in general is probably earned. Everyone else in the world suffers so that Americans can live well and happily.

In the USA, non-whites suffer so that whites, including white workers, get to have white skin privileges, living better and more happily than non-whites.

Power to the People, where are you coming from and where do you want to take this to?

[Power To The People]

You have a anti worker attitude, there are plenty of white ghettos in US, get a fucking clue and stop generalising

[The Inquisitor]

I think hatred for Americans in general is probably earned. Everyone else in the world suffers so that Americans can live well and happily.

In the USA, non-whites suffer so that whites, including white workers, get to have white skin privileges, living better and more happily than non-whites.

What he said, except replace whites with Americans in general and replace non-whites with any kind of immigrant.

[gorillafuck]

If a subdued sticker about being a citizen of the world offends a yank ‘socialist’, what does that say about the rest of them?
It didn't offend me whatsoever. But it's still not constructive and a silly thing to be giving out.

[RadioRaheem84]

People at some point should be upset at some segments of the American people which fundamentally support apartheid like laws and economic policies which make living standards in the world sink. In this sense I am anti-certain Americans not anti-American.

We can say that they're victims of propaganda and the government all we want, I for one am sick of the right wing leaders (and even liberal leaders) constantly being exposed, only to come out of each debacle nearly unscathed with people still believing them regardless of the facts. There are people who want imperialism and revel in American exceptional-ism. They've created a whole alternate world pretty much with it's own logic and history in order to keep their belief of exceptionalism afloat. It is nearly impossible to argue with them and frankly a waste of time. It has become a major clash of presuppositions and a matter of the heart, not the mind.

[gorillafuck]

Raheem: That is a good point.

[The Vegan Marxist]

You have a anti worker attitude, there are plenty of white ghettos in US, get a fucking clue and stop generalising

I grew up in the ghetto, & as a white guy, I've never seen a "white ghetto", because ghettos are an upper-class creation to bring down the minority races. I witnessed first hand what went on in those areas. We never brought in the crack to let people kill themselves in. I never saw it as a coincidence that there was liquor stores on the same block as the gun stores were. The whites are not a "repressive class of races" in this country. Yes, I'm white that lived in the ghetto, but when it comes to the majority of whites, they are not repressed into ghetto's.

[empiredestoryer]

any nation who sends its armies to invade another nation deserves bashing

[Comrade_Scott]

when americans stop being willfully ignorant of the fact that there country oppresses millions of persons around the world and even in there own country then i will stop america bashing. i think third world persons have earned the right to bash america as they continue to bash us while her citizens reap the benefits and never ask the questions how many persons suffered so i can have this.

[NecroCommie]

What I hate is when anti-americanism is gaining racist and nationalist elements. I know many people here would like to see american corporations gone because they think finnish customs and corporations are "better", simply because they are finnish.

Personally I even like some aspects of culture in urban hearts of major american cities, but as far as the state goes it holds one of the most vile policies on this earth. I will do my everything to bash U.S. government anyway I can.

i think third world persons have earned the right to bash america as they continue to bash us while her citizens reap the benefits and never ask the questions how many persons suffered so i can have this.
"Allowing" behaviour that borderlines racist and nationalist thought always carries terrible risk. This risk of bashing imperialist countries has been common issue in socialist movements as early as the 19th century, and I think that we should always demand that people differentiate state and it's subjects.

[Comrade_Scott]

"Allowing" behaviour that borderlines racist and nationalist thought always carries terrible risk. This risk of bashing imperialist countries has been common issue in socialist movements as early as the 19th century, and I think that we should always demand that people differentiate state and it's subjects.

i agree but it is hard when all a person has to do i turn on the tv/radio/computer to see what the country does. i am not (i hope) bashing americans for being americans but because of the willfull ignorance. i will give you an example: in jamaica where i live it is a violent hell hole, lots of shootings but... who gave us the guns who destabilized the nation who trained the de facto militias in the 1980's that led us to civil war? the USA.

Now i blame the state for that, but when a person tells me that jamaica is violent for no apparent reason when the information is all around you showing you why the country is violent, you show them the information and they still deny it the next step is only going to be bashing of the people. i am bashing americans for there ignorance and nothing else and i think most persons who are seen as ameica bashing are doing the same. please tell me if i made any sense and correct me where i need correcting

[NecroCommie]

The one and only part that I would correct is when you speak of americans as one entity. Americans, like communists, are not Borg. Such generalizations might be useful in everyday speech, but also dangerous to a potential racist listener.

Even an accurate stereotype is just a stereotype.

[Agnapostate]

"America bashing"? It's a matter of criticism of the United States government, typically the executive branch administration. I was under the impression that anti-government rhetoric was pretty populist. :D

[I.Drink.Your.Milkshake]

well all my family always make anti american comments, from how they are all fat, to how they have no sense of humor, to how they have a backwards culture, they dont critisize the government, but the workers, which pisses me off.

When i was online about a year ago i was talking to socialists on msn and i first noticed an apparent hatred of the americans, even the workers, which is so counter productive, its just as bad as that 3rd world bullshit that says we are all petty exploiters, yet if you come on my estate i can guarante we dont have all that much.


I honestly dont think that theres much of that that goes on here, almost everyone on these boards has nothing against the american worker and everything against the government and the corporate interests it serves.

But i do understand the casual xenophobia about americans being redknecks or uncultured or (a popular slight in Britain) how they dont understand irony. Its something thats deeply irritated me for a long time now (most BRITISH people dont understand irony), and i deeply hate the snobbery and contempt with which a lot of brits hold "yanks".

My argument to most people is that these days you are what you like, in terms of the culture you imbibe. If your interests give you character then for most people this will be predominantly american culture through films and music and TV. A couple of months back i had an argument with a mate about "being proud to be English", to which i countered that most of the cultural artefacts that have affected me most deeply, from literature (Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burrough) to art (Rothko, Pollock, Hopper) to film (Charlie Kaufman, Woody Allen, Kubrick) to Music are American or have an American heritage. Against that lot Fish and Chips every saturday does not St George (that great... uhm.... "Englishman") make.

[Barry Lyndon]

I think that anti-Americanism(attacking Americans in their entirety), as opposed to attacking American imperialism and the capitalist class, arises as an over-reaction to the lethal arrogance and psychotic sense of entitlement that the US government displays toward the rest of the world, and I am sorry to say, many of the people as well. If the US wasn't constantly declaring itself the greatest and most virtuous nation in the world, the tempation toward anti-Americanism probably wouldn't be so strong.

I am with RadioRaheem on this as well, with regards to the American public's responsibility for the US empire's crimes around the world. Although it is clear that many Americans mean well and are not directly responsible for what their government is doing, it is also true there is a large mass of 'ordinary people' in this country who revel in ignorance about the rest of the world while simultaneously they celebrate and demand the "right" to reap the benefits of raping the world's resources, as well as the "right" to bomb anyone who objects. I just can't buy the excuses that theres too much propaganda or that people work too much or whatever to challenge the system. People have mounted resistance movements in outright totalitarian states, that no such thing has materialized in the US is an embarassment.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I got two words for you: Odnochnoye plavanye (Solo Voyage)

This 1985 film was the only film in history in which Soviet soldiers were depicted fighting Americans. Often called the "Soviet Rambo" by smug Westerners who want to suggest that there's some degree of moral equivalency between the two.

Reality check: In that film the USSR was stepping in to save the United States from a madman traitor who was killing Americans.

And this is the ONLY FILM IN SOVIET HISTORY that showed combat between Americans and Soviets.

When even the USSR upheld American nationalism, I say there isn't enough America bashing.


REALLY?!?!?! Only one?

Damn, I haven't seen much soviet era films, in fact I think war and peace is the only one I've seen.

This is quite a let down. No T-72s parked on the white house lawn, blowing away columns of resistance? No paratroopers rapelling down the empire state building, gunning down NYPD and whoever gets in there way? No epic beach landings on the california coast?

American Taste in Cinema > Soviet


(this is a joke, take it seriously and die)

[The Inquisitor]

REALLY?!?!?! Only one?

Damn, I haven't seen much soviet era films, in fact I think war and peace is the only one I've seen.

This is quite a let down. No T-72s parked on the white house lawn, blowing away columns of resistance? No paratroopers rapelling down the empire state building, gunning down NYPD and whoever gets in there way? No epic beach landings on the california coast?

American Taste in Cinema > Soviet


(this is a joke, take it seriously and die)

Forget movies man, I'm still waiting for the Russians to make video games where the players can kill Americans. If you look at the war games (i.e call of Duty 6 and battlefield 2) everyone plays these days, it's almost as if we want the Russians to attack us.

[Sendo]

No one is attacking Americans.

The thing that is evil is the United States, because it doesn't have health care, free higher education and assistance, and it invades countries all over the world.
Also xenophobia and religious zealotry is common here.

America, and its culture are to be damned because it is intolerant, violent, and imperialistic. I don't think any people on here hate Americans in general though.

Like the OP, I have little tolerance for Euros trashing Americans, for me especially in regards to intolerance. Switzerland just banned minarets. Now that Europe's witnessing a multi-cultural Europe it's handling it with the same grace and dignity of the USA. It's easy to condemn racists when you're in the majority of a country where the majority has no foreseeable future of becoming merely a plurality. For example, the whitest suburbs have no problem with the one black family whose fully assimilated, but go to towns where blacks might form 30% of the population and you see racism. Likewise it was easy for many Northern abolitionists to come off as high and mighty when there were barely any blacks in the North. But by the 1860s you get enough blacks in the North that the North plays host to some major race riots. As analogy Malcolm X's southern US is to Malcolm X's northern US as today's US is to today's Europe.

You can't blame culture for intolerance; you must blame capitalism. Just compare China to South Korea and Japan. South Korea and Japan always maintain that they are homogeneous and racially pure despite proof otherwise, the silliness of a pure race (what, like a "purebred dog" artificially made by humans?), etc. Meanwhile, until it switched to all-Mao currency to fight counterfeiters (more recognizable currency), China hosted pictures of the various ethnicities. Imagine that in any of our capitalist nations that have always been capitalist.

And in a few decades much (not all) of this crititque of American culture will look as silly as saying that Britain is filled with a genocidal, maniacal citizenry because of the old occupations of India and the like. Or hell, why not blame the continued occupation of Northern Ireland on British culture.