How does capitalism surive?

[punisa]

Many (even bourgeoise) experts claimed a year ago that the crisis could be so hard that it will bring down the global capitalist system.
In recent months (from media at least) everything seems to be pointing towards how the worst is over and complete recovery is around a corner.

I'm wondering.. how do they do it?
Remember Richard Wolff? Capitalism has hit the fan?
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZU3wfjtIJY)
According to him (and many others), the limits were already reached and further growth is not possible.

So what are we seeing just now? Is the news fake?
such as this one:
Consumers Help Drive U.S. Economy to 3.2% Growth Rate
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/01/business/economy/01econ.html?src=mv

Is it really possible that everything will be "business as usual"?
At this moment, where is the capitalism exactly - what is it doing, how is it morphing itself and what does it all mean?
Opinions are welcome :)

[Dr Mindbender]

Capitalism survives by sustaining scarcity.

If you look at history, whenever capitalism came into crisis it began a war to artifically create scarcity and justify rising prices. The classical example is world war 2, after the wall st crash.

As a last resort the capitalists will also allow the fascists to take over, to protect the class system against revolution as was the case in Italy and Germany. Whenever the workers tire of fascism, capitalism then springs out of hibernation, its appearance looking cleaner than clean when compared to the authoritarian shambles they inherit.

[Teutonic_Battleaxe]

Because capitalism gives everyone a chance at a good life and happiness? :cool:

[RadioRaheem84]

Because capitalism gives capitalists a chance at a good life and happiness? :cool:

Edited for clarity. :thumbup1:

[RadioRaheem84]

Capitalism is able to survive because it incorporates several elements of the state for it's protection/sustainability, and is able to basically adjust life in such a way that people get used to it and think, ce la vie. Republicans in the States are the king of keeping up the appearance. Workers have to adjust their life around each crises and that makes them "tough" Americans who don't complain, while the rich continue to live like parasitic kings. Even though we lose a huge amount of purchasing power with each boom and bust and our wages sink to shit, we're supposed to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and live like the Wild West (surviving by our wits and whatever junk can rain down on us from the capitalist stratosphere).

[GPDP]

Capitalism is able to survive because it incorporates several elements of the state for it's protection/sustainability, and is able to basically adjust life in such a way that people get used to it and think, ce la vie. Republicans in the States are the king of keeping up the appearance. Workers have to adjust their life around each crises and that makes them "tough" Americans who don't complain, while the rich continue to live like parasitic kings. Even though we lose a huge amount of purchasing power with each boom and bust and our wages sink to shit, we're supposed to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and live like the Wild West (surviving by our wits and whatever junk can rain down on us from the capitalist stratosphere).

That, and there's always the old adage: life is hard and getting harder, but at least we're not socialists!

[punisa]

Thanks for the answers comrades.
How about the near future? Can we try and predict where capitalism is heading b the year 2015, 2020?

I agree that fascism is the last line of defence of the capitalist class.
Since there is no real "threat" of a worker's revolution, can we thus conclude that there is no threat of fascism either? At least in the west.

By reading Marx, I figured that capitalism must go and conquer every part of the world in order to keep on growing.
Being a system that will die if growth is stopped.
So in the 90's we had new markets ready for harvest (eastern bloc).
But where to export/exploit now? Middle east?

Surely capitalists are aware that their system needs constant growth in order to breath, how will they maintain it in the years to come?
Destroy some (war) and build again?

Final question: is there any remote chance that capitalist system can perform a suicide? Collapse on its own?
I'm not trying to downplay the importance of the socialist revolution, I'm just a bit curious :)

[Argument]

Capitalism survives because the state survives. The state helps the capitalists, and in turn, the capitalists help the state. Both should be brought down. Capitalism would fall without the aid of the state, workers' cooperatives would defeat the big business when the big business has lost all its privileges, all it's aid from the state.

[RadioRaheem84]

I think that capitalists in the past usually had two choices when the shit hits the fan; social democracy or fascism. Which meant either succumb to concessions with the worker or just totally subjugate the workers.

I think that the option of social democracy is not one that capitalists want to even consider these days or believe they can't. I mean social democrats are seen these days as Bolsheviks so I doubt they would pursue such policies.

So what do capitalists intend to do this time around? The state can only do so much now with the framework they've boxed themselves in.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Social-democrats aren't seen as Bolsheviks, but as "populist rabble."

[mlgb]

Surely capitalists are aware that their system needs constant growth in order to breath, how will they maintain it in the years to come?
Destroy some (war) and build again?

the answer is that they simply dont care. they are perfectly willing to simply let things run their course and (make the workers) deal with the consequences.




Final question: is there any remote chance that capitalist system can perform a suicide? Collapse on its own?

there is a very good chance it will collapse on its own. dont get any ideas about waiting on it to do so. i very much doubt the result will be any sort of socialist utopia. its tempting to picture a capitalist self-destruction like a car running out of gas. a more apt image would perhaps be a car plowing into a wall at substantial speed.

[pranabjyoti]

Capitalism survived by Internationalism, perhaps they have learned well from their strong opponents. As for example, USA was and still is the destiny of "good brains" all around the world. IN THE MY OPINION, IT'S ONE OF THE BIGGEST REASON IT STILL CAN HOLD THE WORLD TOP. Now, other European countries, specially West European countries are taking lessons from USA in this regard. But, though Internationalism is core of Socialism, but countries, where the revolutionary parties come into power, rarely dependent on Internationalism. Rather they take some kind of nationalistic attitude and always try to develop with their own effort. In the middle and late middle part of the 20th century, when the communication isn't so much developed like today, that's may be a reason behind this. But, if that kind of trend will still continue despite the existence and development of Internet, that wouldn't be good for their progress.
India was once a British colony and suffered a lot. But, still if you ask any high educated Indian about his preference, 99% (perhaps more) will answer countries like UK, USA. That is true about most of the third world countries. Actually, this supply of Intellect is one of the root cause of the survival of capitalism and imperialism.
That can be stopped if and only if, countries where some kind of revolutionary progress is going on can take some counter measure. As for example, countries like Venezuela, Cuba or some other. They should be open to good, innovative intellectuals and put some importance on further scientific and technological progress with their help.
If USSR under Stalin can have even the input of brains from the third world countries, it would certainly lag USA far behind in scientific and technological progress and the history of 20th century would be different.

[punisa]

Actually, this supply of Intellect is one of the root cause of the survival of capitalism and imperialism.
I agree very much with this statement.
Even in my country, we have heavy "brain drain"

As wiki puts it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_drain:
"Brain drain is common amongst developing nations, such as the former colonies of Africa, the island nations of the Caribbean, and particularly in centralized economies such as former East Germany and the Soviet Union, where marketable skills were not financially rewarded."

[CHE with an AK]

Some good answers above.

I would add a few points:

1. When on the verge of collapse, Capitalism will also turn to "socialism" for the rich (which is pretty much the system that exists in America).

2. Capitalism also does a good job of infiltrating the proletariat with bourgeoisie notions of "pacifism" and "peaceful change" being not only 'noble' but historically the most effective (I would argue - as Engles would, that is not). What the masters of capital really fear is violent overthrow, peaceful "change" merely allows them to uproot their capital and relocate it to another area of the periphery.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

An unprecedented assault on working class living standards didn't hurt.

[pranabjyoti]

I agree very much with this statement.
Even in my country, we have heavy "brain drain"

As wiki puts it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_drain:
"Brain drain is common amongst developing nations, such as the former colonies of Africa, the island nations of the Caribbean, and particularly in centralized economies such as former East Germany and the Soviet Union, where marketable skills were not financially rewarded."
I am agreeing with you in this regard. Just "Financial reward" isn't the factor, it's how much respected they are in their society. Scientists like Pavlov and Michurin never thought to leave USSR. Despite the brain drain like Gamow, the progress of USSR continued. Actually, it was lack of supply from third world countries that ultimately become the key factor.

[Dr Mindbender]

I agree that fascism is the last line of defence of the capitalist class.
Since there is no real "threat" of a worker's revolution, can we thus conclude that there is no threat of fascism either? At least in the west.



No, we cant. Just because they dont parade around in brownshirts and jackboots anymore does not mean the fascist threat is gone. In western europe at least, it exists in the form of reformed groups with respectable images like the BNP and front nationale. Both of which are enjoying modest successes.

[Sir Comradical]

Thanks for the answers comrades.
How about the near future? Can we try and predict where capitalism is heading b the year 2015, 2020?

I agree that fascism is the last line of defence of the capitalist class.
Since there is no real "threat" of a worker's revolution, can we thus conclude that there is no threat of fascism either? At least in the west.

By reading Marx, I figured that capitalism must go and conquer every part of the world in order to keep on growing.
Being a system that will die if growth is stopped.
So in the 90's we had new markets ready for harvest (eastern bloc).
But where to export/exploit now? Middle east?

Surely capitalists are aware that their system needs constant growth in order to breath, how will they maintain it in the years to come?
Destroy some (war) and build again?

Final question: is there any remote chance that capitalist system can perform a suicide? Collapse on its own?
I'm not trying to downplay the importance of the socialist revolution, I'm just a bit curious :)

I don't think capitalists will ever run out of investment opportunities. There are numerous places capitalists can invest their money but they tend to choose the options that provide the greatest return, hence the obsession with real estate because land is finite and the risk on property is generally low. So surpluses get poured into real estate creating a price bubble (there's no such thing as an "artificial bubble" as bourgeois economists say).

A capitalist crisis cannot cause capitalism to collapse because it does not alter the nature of the relationship between capitalists and workers. When a crisis occurs, it only strengthens some capitalists at the expense of other capitalists who are put of business.

[punisa]

I don't think capitalists will ever run out of investment opportunities. There are numerous places capitalists can invest their money but they tend to choose the options that provide the greatest return
I agree, the biggest possible return and maximizing of the profit is a must in order to survive as a capitalist.
But again, this is exactly why I believe the capitalists will liquidate themselves and "force" proletariat into revolution sooner or later.
Obviously we are still far away from that day, but I see it as inevitable.
Let me give a couple of reasons:
1) New markets must be created, but in this case they may still be reinvented - although this will also run out of options in the future.
2) to maximize profitability you must:
a) downsize the working class (lay off people, so more money remains in your pocket)
b) increase productivity of the employees (exploit them even more) without raising their pay-checks

There are limits on how much productivity you can suck out of the person, regardless of the economic sector.
This is true for an industrial worker in the same way as it is for a computer programmer.
There will be higher and higher demand for productivity until it reaches the point where a worker simply can not provide any more.
At this point - the amount of money invested will not create a surplus of profit, what happens at this stage?

This is happening all over.
A guy I knew used to work entire life in the cargo oversea ship business.
As he told me, since the 70's there was a trend of reducing the number of workers on-board, from 30+ down to 12 today.
Also, the time limit for loading/unloading cargo in the dock has been dramatically reduced.
If the crew fails to load/unload cargo in the given time frame, be it only 30 seconds over - they all face consequences and even have an amount of money deducted from their salaries.

This creates enormous stress and also a greater chance of security risks, despite higher then average payments, job becomes physical and mentally impossible.
He is retired now, but also wonders where this will lead. Eventually it must "snap".

I understand and see everyday how capitalism reinvents itself and creates new business opportunities, but at the end of the day it all comes down to workers and productivity.
Technology is still not so advanced that it can replace every worker, thus this trend of hyper-exploitation will continue.
Especially nowadays considering the amount of unemployed. Those "lucky" ones who still hold a job will be forced to work even harder then before.

I agree with the fact that capitalism developed enormously over the years and is very cautious towards mistakes it made in the past.
Raw, visible exploitation that existed at the turn of the 19/20th century is no more - for obvious reasons capitalism now works hard in dumbing-down the working class, making them lethargic and even hostile towards capitalism's only real enemy - socialism.
By establishing itself as the "only way" it can - so to speak - even collapse, rest for a bit and resurrect again.

Hypothetically speaking, if somehow the global monetary system failed overnight, simply died out, would that open the doors for socialism? I have my doubts.

[Delenda Carthago]

the crisis is far from over.

[Delenda Carthago]

Final question: is there any remote chance that capitalist system can perform a suicide? Collapse on its own?
I'm not trying to downplay the importance of the socialist revolution, I'm just a bit curious :)

You should read some Marx.

[Tifosi]

No, we cant. Just because they dont parade around in brownshirts and jackboots anymore does not mean the fascist threat is gone. In western europe at least, it exists in the form of reformed groups with respectable images like the BNP and front nationale. Both of which are enjoying modest successes.

Arizona! Fascism contiunes to grow during this crisis of capital

[CartCollector]

Social-democrats aren't seen as Bolsheviks, but as "populist rabble."
Well I guess the perception depends on where you live. In the US, if you even dare to speak the heresy that a government run program could be more efficient than a privately run one you're a "socialist." The "populist rabble" rhetoric is ironically more associated with the far right.

[Delenda Carthago]

When a crisis occurs, it only strengthens some capitalists at the expense of other capitalists who are put of business.

No but its the right time to attack the system.Capitalism will not fall while its working.This is why the glorious movements of 60s and 70s where not victorious:because they where fighting the battle on a ideological ground.

Now its time to fight on actual economical ground.

[punisa]

You should read some Marx.
Right, if you actually reffered to something specific Marx's text regarding my question - I would assume you were trying to answer me.
Obviously you are not.

[Delenda Carthago]

Karl Marx's theory is that capitalism will expand as long as he(?) can,and then he will collapse.Of course,the need of a revlutionary movement is obvious,so that after that,we will go to socialism.

But seriously.You should read some Marx.

[punisa]

Karl Marx's theory is that capitalism will expand as long as he(?) can,and then he will collapse.Of course,the need of a revlutionary movement is obvious,so that after that,we will go to socialism.

But seriously.You should read some Marx.

And somehow you came to believe that I've never read Marx did you now?
Just because 160 years after communist manifesto I ask what are the elements which are keeping capitalism afloat?
Actually, let us not get into this.

[Delenda Carthago]

160 years later,the same elements keep capitalism alive.Plus,the fact that this system knows how to absorb new ethics.

in 1960's people believed that if you destroy the moral values of the society,that it will collapse.Today,the new moral values are what the system projects.

as an example lets take sex.back in the 60s people were fuckin like jack rabbits and called it revolution.nowdays the system doesnt give a fuck if you fuck 50 girls in one night.as a matter of fact,today it might call it INDUSTRY!

[Velkas]

Capitalism will survive as long as the people believe that it is necessary, that all other systems would be worse, and that the problems are only in specific varieties of capitalism.