Non-Marxist Socialism

[Crunkenstein]

An interest in socialism bound the original friendship of Marx and Engels together, a friendship that intensified the activity of the other man involved. Marx's works on economics and communism are well respected classics, even the by those most opposed to Marxism. I'd like to understand what socialism was like before Marx, if there are any traditions of socialism that either never underwent the Marxist transformation or rejected his notions upon encountering them, and if any of those traditions are found to this day. What are their names, what books describe them well, what books describe socialism before Marx well? Opinions and reading suggestions are welcome.

[Zanthorus]

Before Marx was what is usually referred to as "utopian socialism" in Marxist ciricles. This consisted mostly of individuals like Robert Owen, Charles Fourier and Henri de Saint-Simon and their followers. The utopians often had grand sweeping visions of what a rational society would look like and thought that as soon as people realised how awesome their ideas were everyone would convert.

There were also people like Gracchus Babeuf and August Blanqui who were revolutionary communists but used conspiratorial organisational tactics.

Proudhon is probably the major pre-Marxian socialist whose ideas still resonate. I find most of his work quite tedious personally and he engages in an essentially moralistic and legalistic criticism of capitalism. Although his arguments are often misrepresented. For example, Marxists like to claim that Proudhon opposed strikes. However his actual argument was merely that strikes were useless within the capitalist system for improving conditions for workers.

[Palingenisis]

I get the impression that a lot of modern than Anarchism is very influenced by Council Communism...Is that unfair to say?

[Zanthorus]

I get the impression that a lot of more than Anarchism is very influenced by Council Communism...Is that unfair to say?

That's probably a fair assesment for some in the anarchist movement (Me included admittedly :p ) although others not so much. Although even those who are influenced by CC probably take influence from other sources. A lot of CC'ers were still quite scathing toward anarchism. I forget the precise wording but even in Pannekoek's later work where he adopts more anti-organisationalist positions he says that anarchism is a product of the radical petit-bourgeoisie. IIRC some CC'ers where still quite vanguardist even long after the break with the third international.

[Palingenisis]

. A lot of CC'ers were still quite scathing toward anarchism. I forget the precise wording but even in Pannekoek's later work where he adopts more anti-organisationalist positions he says that anarchism is a product of the radical petit-bourgeoisie. .

Well some anarchism is and some anarchism isnt.

[Palingenisis]

http://afed.org.uk/publications/pamphlets-booklets/115-council-communist-pamphlets-republication.html

Why does the Anarchist Federation in England promote Council Communist writings if they dont feel its part of their tradition?

[Zanthorus]

http://afed.org.uk/publications/pamphlets-booklets/115-council-communist-pamphlets-republication.html

Why does the Anarchist Federation in England promote Council Communist writings if they dont feel its part of their tradition?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that some members of AFed are ex-members of a british council communist organisation. In fact if you read their "in the tradition (http://www.afed.org.uk/org/issue52/roots.html)" series they explicitly state that they take council communism as one of their influences.

[Palingenisis]

I think Subversion which was sort of Council Communist joined the Anarchist Federation.

I think Class War was much cooler though.

[syndicat]

I get the impression that a lot of modern than Anarchism is very influenced by Council Communism...Is that unfair to say?

This is more true in the UK than in the USA, where council communism has less influence.

[Proletarian Ultra]

Besides the utopians, there was Proudhon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Joseph_Proudhon) and the Ricardian socialists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardian_socialism), among others. They had some cool stuff. IMHO they were much better at understanding the full phenomenological import of the labor theory of value than Marx was.

[BAM]

they were much better at understanding the full phenomenological import of the labor theory of value than Marx was.

what do you mean by that? What is the "phenomenological import" of the labour theory of value? Which labour theory of value are you talking about?

[flobdob]

I think these movements were very interesting, and sometimes still make good resonant arguments which can be used by modern Marxists to argue for socialism. For instance, William Thompson, the irish utopian socialist, wrote his magnum opus An Inquiry into the Principles of the Distribution of Wealth as a utilitarian critique of capitalism, highlighting the injustices of the capitalist system from a very accessible perspective. Similarly, some of the great popularisers of the English socialist movement (post Marx and Engels utopians) like William Morris and Robert Blatchford, although the latter was a massive conservative and imperialist in later life. None of the arguments they make are the deep incisive arguments of Marx, Engels, Lenin etc, and definately not an iota of analytical content to match them, but they are certainly pretty good populist-socialist arguments...

[Red Commissar]

There are strands of non-Marxist socialism including but not limited too,

-Reformist strands: While most of these were birthred out of former Marxists, they have taken on a different from. They were mostly described as "Democratic Socialists". In turn this gradually birthed the ideology of social democracy which is an ideology all its own.

-Anarchist strands: Most anarchists by definition were opposed to Marxism. While some tendencies of Anarchism share the same goal of communism, they disagree on the means that Marxists pose to reach that.

-Syndicalism: This arose parallel to Marxist and Reformist strands, attempting to find a more decentralized form of socialism as opposed to nationalization. As the name suggests it came out of the labor movement. Parts of this thinking have been incorporated by other variants of socialism.

-Utopians: As mentioned these were people attempting a form of socialism that often led to short-lived success or failure. They would try to make small communities- French utopian socialists attempted this alot, like the Saint-Simonians and Reunioners.