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KurtFF8
28th April 2010, 18:29
(Yes this is a headline from today)

Source (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100428/bs_afp/stocksforexbondseurope;_ylt=AtXbZ6aTxWs3tg8LYfv30. Ws0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNuZjkwZnI5BGFzc2V0A2FmcC8yMDEwMD QyOC9zdG9ja3Nmb3JleGJvbmRzZXVyb3BlBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rw b3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDMgRwb3MDNwRwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3 luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDZ3JlZWtmaW5hbmNp)



by Roland Jackson Roland Jackson – Wed Apr 28, 6:06 am ET
LONDON (AFP) – Greece's deepening financial crisis sent stock markets and the euro reeling again on Wednesday after its debt was slashed to junk status, fanning fears of a default.
A fierce global equities sell-off was sparked on Tuesday after ratings agency Standard & Poor's cut Greek debt to junk status, while a downgrade to Portugal also stoked concerns about a widening eurozone crisis.
As the European Union announced that it would hold an emergency summit on Greece, the Frankfurt stock market plummeted 1.93 percent and Paris plunged 2.16 percent in late morning deals.
London fell 0.98 percent, one day after suffering its biggest one-day loss since November.
Lisbon tumbled 5.56 percent and Madrid fell by 2.72 percent, while Athens was down 1.69 percent after massive losses in recent days.
"Any hope that the Greek issue was finally coming under control took a huge blow yesterday with the country's sovereign debt being downgraded to junk," said IG Markets analyst Ben Potter.
The news sparked "a quick run of selling on equity markets across the globe that was reminiscent of the chaos of 2008," he added.
The debt drama also rattled Asian markets, with Tokyo slumping 2.57 percent and Hong Kong diving 1.26 percent in value.
Wall Street shed 1.90 percent overnight, with the Dow Jones Industrial Average finishing under the symbolic level of 11,000 points, as Greece and Portugal downgrades reverberated across the globe.
"The downgrading of Portuguese and Greek debt has spooked investors, as there is a very real fear that other European countries could be downgraded too," said analyst Owen Ireland at ODL Securities.
In the foreign exchange market on Wednesday, the European single currency hit a new one-year dollar low.
The euro plunged to 1.3143 dollars -- a low last seen in April 2009 -- as traders fretted over a debt crisis that could spread to other fiscally-challenged nations like Spain, Italy and Ireland.
In bond market trade on Wednesday, the yield on 10-year Greek sovereign bonds soared to 11.076 percent, the highest 10-year level ever recorded in the eurozone, after 9.73 percent on Tuesday.
"The S&P downgrades to Portugal and Greece brought a fresh bout of fears to equity and credit markets alike, with concerns over contagion effects continuing to rise," said analyst Deidre Ryan at Goodbody's stockbrokers.
"Along with the spike in peripheral euro-area bond yields, the euro also continues to weaken, falling below the 1.32-dollar level to its lowest level in a year."
Reeling from a debt and public deficit crisis, Greece has appealed for emergency loans totalling 45 billion euros (60 billion dollars) from the European Union and the International Monetary Fund.
The funds would be made availaible on condition that Greece implemented tough austerity measures, currently the subject of talks with the EU and the IMF.
The IMF is considering raising its Greek financial aid by 10 billion euros (13 billion dollars), having already offered 15 billion as part of the emergency loans, the Financial Times reported Wednesday.
In response the latest news, the European Union has called an emergency summit on Greece, with eurozone leaders set to meet next month.
EU President Herman Van Rompuy said leaders from the 16 nations using the single currency would meet in Brussels "by around May 10" to try to agree how to set up a massive rescue operation.
Speaking in Tokyo, Van Rompuy said there was "no question" of Greece defaulting.
GFT analyst David Morrison said that German Chancellor Angela Merkel would not want to hold the EU summit prior to this date.
"Of course it is the day after the German regional elections and Angela Merkel dare not OK a Greek bailout before then because she will get hammered," Morrison told AFP.
"But the likelihood is that the bond markets will force quicker action," he added.
Across in Athens on Wednesday, strikes and protests erupted as its crisis-hit economy reeled from another scathing downgrade of its debt and the stock exchange took emergency measures to deter speculators.
Amidst a growing recession, a general strike has been called for May 5 against austerity cuts that the government is enforcing to slash the rampant public deficit and debt worth nearly 300 billion euros (399 billion dollars).
Morrison added: "One thing is for sure -- Greece needs considerably more than the 45 billion euros on offer.
"Having heard that restructuring was not even being considered yesterday, the market has jumped forward and is now looking at outright default."
Oil prices also sank on Wednesday, shaken by the Greek crisis and the strong US currency, which makes dollar-priced crude more expensive for foreign buyers.


So the Greek crisis is far from over, and it seems to be spreading to the broader Eurozone (Portugal seems to be the next spot of crisis).


This is quite an interesting development and shows that the global financial crisis is far from over.

Delenda Carthago
28th April 2010, 19:13
First of all,dear revolutionary comrade...

Its not Greek crisis.It is THE crisis that is hidden under the carpet.Greece just happened to be the first to take the weight on our shoulders.Why?Because its easy to blame a country that is already fucked up for it.But us revolutionaries should not fall into the trap.

Secondly,hell no its not over.Speads are on the loose, and nothing seems to can stop it.Goldman Sachs,Germany and IMF are playing their game and they need to be sure about it.

Its gettin really ugly...This I m tellin you.I dont know what is going to happen in the next months...

Jacobinist
28th April 2010, 19:29
First of all,dear revolutionary comrade...

Its not Greek crisis.It is THE crisis that is hidden under the carpet.Greece just happened to be the first to take the weight on our shoulders.Why?Because its easy to blame a country that is already fucked up for it.But us revolutionaries should not fall into the trap.

Secondly,hell no its not over.Speads are on the loose, and nothing seems to can stop it.Goldman Sachs,Germany and IMF are playing their game and they need to be sure about it.

Its gettin really ugly...This I m tellin you.I dont know what is going to happen in the next months...

Wasnt Iceland the first then?

Delenda Carthago
28th April 2010, 19:34
Iceland was the first,but this was on a previous phase.In this one,its a different thing, because now the crisis is going to explode into their hands."First we take Berlin,then we take New York".

Now its "first we take Athens,then we take Lisbon,then Germany gets out of the eurozone and everyone else gets fucked in the butt"

Ligeia
28th April 2010, 19:35
First of all,dear revolutionary comrade...

Its not Greek crisis.It is THE crisis that is hidden under the carpet.Greece just happened to be the first to take the weight on our shoulders.Why?Because its easy to blame a country that is already fucked up for it.But us revolutionaries should not fall into the trap.

Secondly,hell no its not over.Speads are on the loose, and nothing seems to can stop it.Goldman Sachs,Germany and IMF are playing their game and they need to be sure about it.

Its gettin really ugly...This I m tellin you.I dont know what is going to happen in the next months...
Agree.
But with "Germany" you're talking about its government, its capitalists,right?
Cause I don't think the working class in Germany will be speared of similar measures.
It's right, it's not the Greek crisis, it's the crisis because other countries will probably follow and the only reason why they are blaming the Greek is to divide the working class across the continent and also to distract that it's only happening to one country so that others think that they are safe.

Delenda Carthago
28th April 2010, 19:35
We are coming to a new era of human history where Germany,USA and the socialfascist Axon of Russia-China are going to take charge.

Jacobinist
28th April 2010, 19:36
Iceland was the first,but this was on a previous phase.In this one,its a different thing, because now the crisis is going to explode into their hands."First we take Berlin,then we take New York".

Now its "first we take Athens,then we take Lisbon,then Germany gets out of the eurozone and everyone else gets fucked in the butt"

Ok, but who's they? International bankers, industrial capitalists, who? If you could be specific, that would really help.

Also, what are the potential rammifications of the EU not bailing out Greece?

Delenda Carthago
28th April 2010, 19:38
Agree.
But with "Germany" you're talking about its government, its capitalists,right?
Cause I don't think the working class in Germany will be speared of similar measures.
It's right, it's not the Greek crisis, it's the crisis because other countries will probably follow and the only reason why they are blaming the Greek is to divide the working class across the continent and also to distract that it's only happening to one country so that others think that they are safe.

No.I am talkin about the German Race.Everyone who has German blood in his vains is responsible and has to die.:thumbup1:

Delenda Carthago
28th April 2010, 19:44
what is rammification?

Ligeia
28th April 2010, 19:45
what is rammification?
Consequences.:)

BAM
28th April 2010, 19:47
It's Spain that's next.

Standard and Poor's credit rating agency has downgraded Spanish government bonds a notch this evening.

Delenda Carthago
28th April 2010, 19:49
Well,the most of the left here is pro-leaving the EU and say that we can have an indipentend economy.I think that without IMF and EU we will still get fucked,but at least we will build something for the future.

Its socialism or barbarism today comrades...And not only Greece.The crisis will hit your door too...you better be ready for it,cause its gonna come.

Jacobinist
28th April 2010, 19:52
Well,the most of the left here is pro-leaving the EU and say that we can have an indipentend economy.I think that without IMF and EU we will still get fucked,but at least we will build something for the future.

Its socialism or barbarism today comrades...And not only Greece.The crisis will hit your door too...you better be ready for it,cause its gonna come.

I dont get it though comrade.

Do you think the EU is in trouble or heading towards collapse? Will the former currencies be re-introduced?

BAM
28th April 2010, 20:07
There's no question of Greece defaulting on its debt. It's just that there are elections in Germany at the moment and any talk of bailing out Greece could result in losses for Merkel's party.

Usui
28th April 2010, 20:11
No.I am talkin about the German Race.Everyone who has German blood in his vains is responsible and has to die.:thumbup1:

That's awful racist of you.

RadioRaheem84
28th April 2010, 20:15
It's Spain that's next.

Standard and Poor's credit rating agency has downgraded Spanish government bonds a notch this evening.

Portugal first.

BAM
28th April 2010, 21:44
Portugal first.

The report linked to in the top already mentioned Portugal, whose government debt was also downgraded, just not to junk status, unlike the Greek government.

Delenda Carthago
28th April 2010, 22:09
That's awful racist of you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF7MroTLDfU

Delenda Carthago
28th April 2010, 22:15
I dont get it though comrade.

Do you think the EU is in trouble or heading towards collapse? Will the former currencies be re-introduced?
Yes. EU was apparently a project that failed.Probably because
A. it tried to include countries with a big variety of economic statuses(and believe me,Greece is one of the biggest economies in EU)
B.there where no solidarity between the members of the union.what happened was that Germany(THE STATE AND THE CAPITALISTS,NOT THE WORKERS!DAAA?) tryed for the 3rd time in a century to conquer Europe.And as it seems,they pulled the right strings this time.Germany is the political and economical heart of Europe and is the only country that managed to get stronger with Euro and that will benefit if the Euro gets destroyed...

The Gallant Gallstone
28th April 2010, 22:21
If the EU can hang in there for another 5 to 6 years, they may catch a break.

I understand that IFRS (International Financial Reporting Standards) adoption in the US will give the EU some meager advantages.

As for the sarcasm thing, I don't really know AttackGR well enough to say one way or the other. What I do know is that humor is frequently used as a contingent sanctuary in the event a controversial statement goes the wrong way.

Lyev
28th April 2010, 22:23
I have an inkling that maybe there's worse to come. This recession ain't over yet. There's even been speculation that Britain's triple AAA status could go down the drain. In the run up to the election, none of the three main parties have given anything substantial on the economy, because they all care too much about getting votes.

KurtFF8
30th April 2010, 01:52
First of all,dear revolutionary comrade...

Its not Greek crisis.It is THE crisis that is hidden under the carpet.Greece just happened to be the first to take the weight on our shoulders.Why?Because its easy to blame a country that is already fucked up for it.But us revolutionaries should not fall into the trap.

Secondly,hell no its not over.Speads are on the loose, and nothing seems to can stop it.Goldman Sachs,Germany and IMF are playing their game and they need to be sure about it.

Its gettin really ugly...This I m tellin you.I dont know what is going to happen in the next months...

When the hell did I blame Greece for the crisis that Greece is in? I say the "Greek Crisis" because Greece is in crisis! Nowhere did I place blame on Greece for the situation its in, that much should already be quite obvious.

It's a global financial crisis (as I believe I said in my OP, perhaps I didn't)

RadioRaheem84
30th April 2010, 02:00
How bad of a shape is the whole EU? I was thinking about at least living there for some time and am wondering if this is just not the best time to look for work there.

KC
30th April 2010, 05:43
While this crisis is incredibly profound and while we have not seen anything in the entire history of capitalism that even comes close to rivaling it, I am incredibly skeptical and worry that people are going to blow this out of proportion and predict the "collapse of capitalism". Yes, this crisis is even worse than the Great Depression in terms of the extent of damage that it caused, but the fact of the matter is that nowadays the system has been improved upon to such an extent where there are a series of safety valves, emergency contingency plans, buffers, etc... that make capitalism much more flexible and "loose" and therefore much more adaptable to withstand these types of crises. So yes, we have seen a quantitative level of destruction that is unrivaled but we will not see the qualitative changes in the fundamental workings of capitalism as we saw them after the Great Depression.

In order for capitalism to collapse there are a variety of conditions that must be met:

1. The objective factor: The conditions for the development of revolutionary consciousness must be met. These vary, but so far in this crisis we have not seen that to a significant extent. Yes, there have been some places where there has been a possibility (such as Greece) but these were the exception and not the rule.

2. The subjective factor: The fact is that the vast majority of parties, if not all of them, completely failed during this crisis. That was due to a variety of reasons, some of which I have developed in other posts on this forum, but fundamentally it comes down to party structure, party composition and party action. Sectism has proven to be a complete and utter failure; the revolutionary left got virtually nowhere throughout this crisis and I think that proves that we have to critically analyze what went wrong, and that includes ourselves, our beliefs and our actions. We need to look at theory and determine where it is lacking; we need to look at our organizations and determine what is working and what isn't, and why; we need to look at our actions and figure out where we need to be and how we need to act.

Unfortunately, all I see is more of the same from the left, which really doesn't surprise me. Change is difficult and painful, but it will happen sooner or later (probably later); I'm just worried it might happen too late.

Die Neue Zeit
30th April 2010, 06:06
Sectism has proven to be a complete and utter failure; the revolutionary left got virtually nowhere throughout this crisis and I think that proves that we have to critically analyze what went wrong, and that includes ourselves, our beliefs and our actions. We need to look at theory and determine where it is lacking; we need to look at our organizations and determine what is working and what isn't, and why; we need to look at our actions and figure out where we need to be and how we need to act.

Unfortunately, all I see is more of the same from the left, which really doesn't surprise me. Change is difficult and painful, but it will happen sooner or later (probably later); I'm just worried it might happen too late.

Don't you mean hyper-activism, single-issue campaignism, and all other forms of "direct action"-ism based on programmatic illiteracy on the left and both frontism and coalitionism based also on programmatic illiteracy but on the right (within the left)?

KC
30th April 2010, 06:46
Don't you mean hyper-activism

No idea what this is.


single-issue campaignism

No idea what you're referring to.


and all other forms of "direct action"-ism based on programmatic illiteracy

No idea what you're talking about here.


and both frontism and coalitionism based also on programmatic illiteracy but on the right (within the left)?

No idea what you mean here.

Die Neue Zeit
1st May 2010, 06:56
No idea what this is.

Hyper-activism: activism for the sake of activism. A common trait among hyper-activists is criticizing those non-intellectuals with more theoretical brains but apparently not "active" enough in their view... like you, LZ, and YS on the one hand and a certain "schoolmaster" on the other. :p


No idea what you're referring to.

ATTAC in Germany, Right to the City in NYC, etc. are all examples of single-issue campaign groups.


No idea what you're talking about here.

I'm referring to attempts to agitate the masses into moving without educating them first and recognizing that organization will supercede the agitation.


No idea what you mean here.

Campaigning on an extremely limited platform of extremely limited reforms shows programmatic illiteracy on the part of opportunist elements within the left.

punisa
1st May 2010, 08:08
I'm referring to attempts to agitate the masses into moving without educating them first and recognizing that organization will supercede the agitation.


I completely stand behind this statement and share the view that without systematic education we'll accomplish nothing and the results of this are already visible - we have millions of angry/disillusioned workers, but little trace of revolutionary struggle.
Struggle does not equal to revolutionary struggle, I bet you all know this.

Regarding the topic of Greece/EU,
what do you think will happen with smaller countries that are pushing hard for joining the EU, like Croatia?
Here in Croatia we have entered a phase were virtually everything is been submitted towards joining the EU in 2012.
Laws are changed daily, social welfare is said to be drastically cut, we are "fighting" corruption etc etc.
If the EU as an organization keeps sinking, what will happen to us?
We already abandoned all national development strategies only to pursue this beautiful and magical dream of becoming an EU member.
Considering the state of the crisis, would you say that it would be "wiser" to skip the membership? Or is it something (like many things nowadays) that we don't get to choose?
btw, there were demands for a national referendum to see if the people actually wanna join or not, it was not allowed to take place.
Same thing happened 2 years ago when we joined NATO, many people were opposed to it, but at the end of the day - nobody asked what the people think.