Blacks & Civil Rights

[Jacobinist]

Now we've all heard of the recent draconian and coercive (and predudice) immigration law recently enacted by the Arizona legislature. Most, I think, would agree that its a race 'thing,' brought to the forefront by the ever growing number of latinos in the United States. I think most would correctly assume that white resentment is the backbone of that attempt. I also think most on this website would be against such a law that specifically targets and detains 'suspicious' people.

But, what about mainstream blacks in the United States? Its been only a few days since the law hit the national media, and many of my black colleagues already have formed an opinion; based on sound bites from the local news aired during Laker game commercials of course. But the general consensus among blacks worries me. And that general consensus is, summed up in one word, good.

Many argue that SB 1070 its not a Jim Crow type law. Many argue that 'wetbacks' are taking our jobs. Many have said 'its about time.' Many have told me, 'it your guys' turn now.' Most dont see it as a civil rights issue. Most forget that many latinos are black or mullato. Which brings me to a point. Do blacks really understand civil rights? Or has the way civil rights is taught in schools, narrowed their perspectives?

Back in 08 during the national elections that gave us Obama, California state had a proposition titled Prop 8; that would ban gay marriage. At the time, gay marriage was happening in Cali, and society was NOT falling apart, believe it or not! Blacks if I recall correctly, flocked to the polls in order to cast a vote (presumably) for the countries first ever black president. In the subsequent following days, I was shocked when the Los Angeles Times reported that aside from voting for Democrats, blacks were otherwise very conservative. http://articles.latimes.com/2008/nov/08/local/me-gayblack8
*On edit: Oh, and btw, Blacks in California overwhelmingly voted against gay marriage.

Which confuses the fuck out of me. Blacks dont consider gay rights a civil rights issue. Blacks dont consider laws drafted by cowboys targeting Latinos as being a civil rights issue. Black civil rights leaders have remained, curiously, quiet on the whole immigration issue. The way I see it, most blacks only consider an issue, a civil rights dilemna only if it concerns black people.

My understanding of civil rights are the privilleges granted to minorities by the uber majority. What do you consider civil rights, and about Black apathy towards modern discrimination. This whole post is kind of a rant, but I had to get this off my chest. WAKE THE FUCK UP BLACK PEOPLE!!!

[The Douche]

I'm not gonna touch this thread with a ten foot pole...

[Jacobinist]

I'm not gonna touch this thread with a ten foot pole...

Why not? Im presenting facts about the current issues facing the United States.

What is this bullshit? Dont talk about black people? As always, its offensive to speak or question blacks in the US. Even when you're obviously questioning them over their actions and words.:rolleyes:

[The Douche]

You sound like a racist, not saying you are, just saying, maybe you ought to calm down (you seem a little excited) and rethink this, then come back and post it again in a manner that doesn't make you sound like you're at a tea party.

[Robocommie]

"Do blacks really understand civil rights?"

Fucking unreal.

[x371322]

African Americans, just like everyone else, come it all political flavors. They're liberals, conservatives, libertarians, tea baggers(like one or two maybe), socialists, communists, anarchists, and maybe even a few nazis here and there (which would be quite strange). Anyway, they have a right to have their own unique political opinions, and we shouldn't just assume they should have a certain perspective simply because they're black. Let's leave race out of it for a moment. It's fine to question someone's opinion, but don't expect that opinion to be shaped entirely by race. I firmly believe that the majority of people, white or black, who support this bill are genuinely not racists. They're just conservatives, and maybe even a few liberals, who are supporting their party line. They don't see it as a racial issue.

Just my opinion.

[Jacobinist]

You sound like a racist, not saying you are, just saying, maybe you ought to calm down (you seem a little excited) and rethink this, then come back and post it again in a manner that doesn't make you sound like you're at a tea party.

I will concede that I was heated when writing the OP. But after re-reading it, I disagree with you. Where is it racist? Im pointing out contradictions among blacks that see black issues as civil rights, while everything else, is something and somebody elses' problem.


Fucking unreal.

Is it unreal to ask whether black americans FULLY understand civil rights when civil rights in our schools is largely taught around black issues? What about gays? Women? Latinos? American Indians? Etc

[Jacobinist]

African Americans, just like everyone else, come it all political flavors. They're liberals, conservatives, libertarians, tea baggers(like one or two maybe), socialists, communists, anarchists, and maybe even a few nazis here and there (which would be quite strange). Anyway, they have a right to have their own unique political opinions, and we shouldn't just assume they should have a certain perspective simply because they're black. Let's leave race out of it for a moment. It's fine to question someone's opinion, but don't expect that opinion to be shaped entirely by race. I firmly believe that the majority of people, white or black, who support this bill are genuinely not racists. They're just conservatives, and maybe even a few liberals, who are supporting their party line. They don't see it as a racial issue.

Just my opinion.

Isnt that the problem though? Is that it is a racial issue? If people were sincerely worried about illegals, why is nobody calling for stricter employer penalties to those who employ illegals in the first place? Why is noone telling people that outsourcing/NAFTA is the number one reason you're probably unemployed.

My OP is based on some articles, but mostly personal experience. That is what I've dealt with, like it or not.

[x371322]

Isnt that the problem though? Is that it is a racial issue? If people were sincerely worried about illegals, why is nobody calling for stricter employer penalties to those who employ illegals in the first place? Why is noone telling people that outsourcing/NAFTA is the number one reason you're probably unemployed.

My OP is based on some articles, but mostly personal experience. That is what I've dealt with, like it or not.

Oh I know it's a racial issue, very much so. I'm not saying it's not. I'm just saying that most people who support it, don't necessarily see it that way. I think if they did see it as a racial issue, then a lot more people would be on our side. You're right though, that is the problem here. This bill is going to allow racism to be used by law enforcement, LEGALLY. That is just absurd.

[Jacobinist]

Oh I know it's a racial issue, very much so. I'm not saying it's not. I'm just saying that most people who support it, don't necessarily see it that way. I think if they did see it as a racial issue, then a lot more people would be on our side. You're right though, that is the problem here. This bill is going to allow racism to be used by law enforcement, LEGALLY. That is just absurd.

Exactly. And blacks, for the most part, approve of it!!!! I assume, because they feel it wont affect them as much as the latino family next door.

There are some class concious blacks who hate this bill for the right reasons. But Ive heard a lof of nonsense in recent days, is all.



But, back to the original question, do American blacks fully comprehend that civil rights affects everybody? I think they dont.

[Muzk]

Well, skin colour has nothing to do with one's attitude...

So yeah, being one of the "discriminated" people doesn't magically make you leftist in all points.

[Bilan]

Exactly. And blacks, for the most part, approve of it!!!! I assume, because they feel it wont affect them as much as the latino family next door.

There are some class concious blacks who hate this bill for the right reasons. But Ive heard a lof of nonsense in recent days, is all.

African-Americans are no different from anyone else. As pointed out above, they can come to rational political positions, or irrational ones. Being oppressed doesn't mean you look on all oppression indignantly. It doesn't work like that.

The distinctions between the Civil Rights movement of the 60's and this can be made quite clear, in the sense that, the only real similarity is that it involves people of colour.
The issue here is to do with immigration, which is not what the core issue for the Civil Rights movement was.

You're on the wrong track, mate. You shouldn't be indignant because "they're black" and because of the civil rights they should "just get it". Xenophobia is a huge problem in the West (and presumably in the East as well, but I know a lot less about that TBH). It is not unsurprising that "blacks" support this bill anymore than if anyone else did.
Plus, America has huge problems with unemployment and, as per usual, foreigners are a common scapegoat. And "blacks" are just as capable as everyone else at succumbing to the influence of prejudice, and utilising scapegoats.

[Robocommie]

Is it unreal to ask whether black americans FULLY understand civil rights when civil rights in our schools is largely taught around black issues? What about gays? Women? Latinos? American Indians? Etc

It's fucking condescending as shit, you moron, to talk about blacks like they're children who don't properly understand civil rights, not like YOU do, you the enlightened one, even though black folks in this country have historically been viciously oppressed.

And since African-Americans are not the ONLY minority group in this country who are more concerned about their own struggle than with that of others, your position is complete hypocritical bullshit. There's a lot of tension among Latinos towards blacks as well, and a lot of affluent white gays can be disgustingly racist.

[Jacobinist]

African-Americans are no different from anyone else. As pointed out above, they can come to rational political positions, or irrational ones. Being oppressed doesn't mean you look on all oppression indignantly. It doesn't work like that.

The distinctions between the Civil Rights movement of the 60's and this can be made quite clear, in the sense that, the only real similarity is that it involves people of colour.
The issue here is to do with immigration, which is not what the core issue for the Civil Rights movement was.

You're on the wrong track, mate. You shouldn't be indignant because "they're black" and because of the civil rights they should "just get it". Xenophobia is a huge problem in the West (and presumably in the East as well, but I know a lot less about that TBH). It is not unsurprising that "blacks" support this bill anymore than if anyone else did.
Plus, America has huge problems with unemployment and, as per usual, foreigners are a common scapegoat. And "blacks" are just as capable as everyone else at succumbing to the influence of prejudice, and utilising scapegoats.

You didnt even read the OP, I can tell based off of your post.

I could care less about blacks not being communist. No, no, no, no. Thats now what Im saying. SB 1070 is a law enacted by a white legislature, purposely to give latnos in Arizona the role of second class citizen. Its not just about immigration, because the bill targets anyone who is #1 Suspicious #2 Latino. Blacks and whites, will be mostly left alone by the police agencies, while any US citizen latino has to fear being detained or rounded up simply for not carrying his passport. Fuck that, if you dont see whats wrong with the law, and assume it only blasts illegals, guess again kiddo.

Which one is the illegal:

http://stoptheinvasionoforegon.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/garibo.jpg
http://stoptheinvasionoforegon.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/pineda-vargasramiro.jpg
http://vvoice.vo.llnwd.net/e12/ask-a-mexican-voting-is-gay.2681742.40.jpg


Which one is more 'suspicious?'

[Robocommie]

But, back to the original question, do American blacks fully comprehend that civil rights affects everybody? I think they dont.

You know, you should really stop trying to stress how ignorant black folks are on racism and civil rights, since they're not alone in their support of this idiotic bill. You're separating them and their opinion based solely on their skin tone, that's fucked up.

[Jacobinist]

It's fucking condescending as shit, you moron, to talk about blacks like they're children who don't properly understand civil rights, not like YOU do, you the enlightened one, even though black folks in this country have historically been viciously oppressed.

And since African-Americans are not the ONLY minority group in this country who are more concerned about their own struggle than with that of others, your position is complete hypocritical bullshit. There's a lot of tension among Latinos towards blacks as well, and a lot of affluent white gays can be disgustingly racist.

I dont know about you, but a gay racist white has the right to marry. Blacks historically oppressed? What the fuck are you talking about? Yes, everything you've read about them is true. But have Latinos not been oppressed? American Indians ring a bell? You must be the moron, first for using moron, second for failing to realize that whites always have an inner fear of critizing blacks in fear of being labeled a racist. I however, have no such fear.

If you are concerned about your struggle, and could care less about others struggles, then FUCK YOU. I wouldnt be comrades with an ignorant dick like that.

[Jacobinist]

You know, you should really stop trying to stress how ignorant black folks are on racism and civil rights, since they're not alone in their support of this idiotic bill. You're separating them and their opinion based solely on their skin tone, that's fucked up.

I only say they're ignorant about civil rights because of their voting record. And about skin tone, no, thats not what Im doing. As of matter of fact, because of their skin tone, they should be totally opposed to laws drafted regarding skin tone. Dont cha think comrade?

[Robocommie]

I dont know about you, but a gay racist white has the right to marry. Blacks historically oppressed? What the fuck are you talking about? Yes, everything you've read about them is true. But have Latinos not been oppressed? American Indians ring a bell? You must be the moron, first for using moron, second for failing to realize that whites always have an inner fear of critizing blacks in fear of being labeled a racist. I however, have no such fear.

If you are concerned about your struggle, and could care less about others struggles, then FUCK YOU. I wouldnt comrades with an ignorant dick like that.

The point, Slappy, is that by going after blacks on this issue, you're choosing the wrong target. You're attacking the symptoms, not the cause, and in the process talking down to black folks, and calling them ignorant.

[Jacobinist]

The point, Slappy, is that by going after blacks on this issue, you're choosing the wrong target. You're attacking the symptoms, not the cause, and in the process talking down to black folks, and calling them ignorant.

Pointing out how hypocritical many blacks are in regards to civil rights is not talking down to blacks. Its called stating the obvious stupid.

[Jacobinist]

If you disagree with OP, then answer this.

Should blacks in the US support a bill such as SB 1070? Why or why not?

[Bilan]

Jacobinist, should anyone support this legislation?

[Jacobinist]

Jacobinist, should anyone support this legislation?

In my opinion, absolutely not. Because it is an obvious attempt at a modern Jim Crow law that will relegate legal US citizen latinos to secondary status.

Which is why Im shocked that many blacks would support such a racist bill drawn up by cowboy ex-Texans. But then, again I felt the same way about gay marriage and Prop 8. A bill that was passed with 70% approval among black voters. Point being, Blacks should not ignore others civil rights problems. Or even yet, are they aware that gay, latino, womens problems etc are usually civil rights issues as well?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/raymond-leon-roker/stop-blaming-californias_b_142018.html

[Franz Fanonipants]

Blacks in the US identify more with their oppressors due to the Black-white spectrum of race that white supremacy initially needed to succeed.

As such, they're kinda "ignorant" about Latinos. From my limited experience as a Latino interacting with Black folk.

That said, PoCs hating on gays tends to be a mixture of homophobia and class hatred. I'll even admit that as a barely out of lumpen Mexican-American, I kinda resent gay men's money.

EDIT

This isn't to say Latinos are all roses when it comes to Black folk. omg.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

That said, PoCs hating on gays tends to be a mixture of homophobia and class hatred. I'll even admit that as a barely out of lumpen Mexican-American, I kinda resent gay men's money.


Eh, what? So they have this money by virtue of them being gays, not unrelated economic conditions?

If that's so, where's my money? :confused:

[Franz Fanonipants]

Eh, what? So they have this money by virtue of them being gays, not unrelated economic conditions?

If that's so, where's my money? :confused:

Obviously the unrelated economic conditions are the majority supplier of said funds (being a white dude p. much sets you up), but there are issues with being a part of a double male income household.

Of course, I recognize that resentment I have is wrong, vestiges of my own homophobia, and something I've gotta fight against to achieve true solidarity.

But it's still there.

[Revy]

Obviously the unrelated economic conditions are the majority supplier of said funds (being a white dude p. much sets you up), but there are issues with being a part of a double male income household.

Of course, I recognize that resentment I have is wrong, vestiges of my own homophobia, and something I've gotta fight against to achieve true solidarity.

But it's still there.

gay Latinos and gay blacks don't have the privilege of being white. And being gay is something coming with its own oppression and discrimination. both social and economic. there was a study that showed that going on sexual orientation alone, LGBT's are more likely than heterosexuals to be impoverished and unemployed.

double male income? why don't you go look at rich people and upper middle class ? the vast majority of them all are heterosexual. you might be talking about the extra money needed to raise children, but many gay couples adopt. also there are lesbians you know.

homophobia has nothing to do with gay people supposedly having a lot of money. It has to do with prejudice against people who are different. it doesn't matter if a gay person is homeless and starving. homophobes would still hate them...

[Glenn Beck]

Obviously the unrelated economic conditions are the majority supplier of said funds (being a white dude p. much sets you up), but there are issues with being a part of a double male income household.

Of course, I recognize that resentment I have is wrong, vestiges of my own homophobia, and something I've gotta fight against to achieve true solidarity.

But it's still there.

It's good that you recognize that these attitudes are wrong, but it's understandable how people can get these false impressions. It's the classic divide and conquer strategy exploiting the mutual ignorance of different groups.

I think that a lot of it has to do with the depiction of homosexuals in the mainstream media. The stereotype is always of white male yuppie 30-something gay dudes with nice middle class jobs that allow them to afford a spacious luxury apartment in Manhattan or San Francisco and all sorts of frivolous expenses. If you really think about it a lot of homophobic stereotypes about gay men rely on ascribing bourgeois behavior to them like consumerism, vanity, and preoccupation with irrelevant and superficial things. The reality is that homosexuality cuts across every demographic and one of the reasons rich white male homosexuals are more visible is because rich white males are more visible in general. If you're female or a minority you're already less socially emphasized, and if you're gay on top of that it just makes you even less visible.

It's also politically convenient for both the establishment and liberal LGBT groups to try to portray an image of rich white men as representing LGBT people in general. All those Democrat-loving gay rights groups want to look as safe and respectable as possible, for PR reasons. Entertainment media producers want to cash in on both controversy and the chance to look "socially conscious" without pushing the envelope with realistic portrayals of gay people: realistic depictions of straight people are controversial enough as it is and that kind of controversy hurts business. I'd imagine even homophobic Conservatives stand to gain from this stereotype: after all if gay people are seen as privileged then they can get easy populist cred by attacking them while keeping the debate as far away from real class issues as possible.

It's important to be aware of these biases and agendas and not buy into the hype that's just there to distract & divide us.

[Glenn Beck]

Why not? Im presenting facts about the current issues facing the United States.

What is this bullshit? Dont talk about black people? As always, its offensive to speak or question blacks in the US. Even when you're obviously questioning them over their actions and words.:rolleyes:

I originally only caught the tail end of this thread when I posted my reply.

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt with the OP and just chalk it up to frustration, but THAT SHIT ^^^ up there is racist, the typical "reverse racism omg you are playing the race card" bullshit. And that bullshit is offensive.

All in all your shit isn't constructively dealing with the issue of misunderstanding and lack of solidarity between repressed groups. And you are seriously exaggerating the lack of consciousness among blacks in the US. In my experience black people are consistently the most "tuned in" group of people I've interacted with, judging from the overall sum of my experiences with different groups of people. And I've heard members of that group say some ignorant shit, but without a doubt far less than any other group. I've met a lot of black folk that are more supportive of civil rights for latinos than some other latinos I've known! It's been very rare for me to catch any kind of shit from a black person, meanwhile I've seen latino people non-jokingly call eachother wetbacks and uncritically accept the idea that right-wingers only have a problem with "illegal" immigrants.

Also what about this shit: http://www.revleft.com/vb/converse.php?u=11225&u2=28305


"Blacks voted in favor of banning gay marriage.

Blacks are in all likelyhood in favor of SB 1070, simply because they assume it wont affect them.

Whites are afraid to say such things because of guilty consciences. Like yourself."

What the fuck is that? What about the white people who voted in favor of banning gay marriage, do they get a pass? Damn right they do in your book because white people are immune to being judged as a mass. What the fuck basis do you have to say that black folk are in favor of that fascist bill? You got a few scientific polls? Even if a lot of them are, again, what about the overwhelming majority of the people who support that bill, you know that most of them are white.

You know what % of Arizona is black? I just looked it up: 3%. They aren't going to make a political different either fucking way, why do you give them so much attention?

I'm just going to call a spade a spade: you're fucking racist against black people. And to be honest your complaints about black solidarity are hypocritical as shit, considering that you are one of many latinos (including some of my relatives, to my shame and theirs) who are disgustingly biased against the black population of this country.

[Robocommie]

I don't even fucking get what purpose this could serve to post this thread here, unless it was to drum up support on the forum for the general sentiment, "Gosh gee Jacobinist, you're right, black folks really are kinda dumb about civil rights! What the hell!"

Certainly he wasn't asking for us to assuage his fears.

As I had said earlier, this isn't a black thing - having difficulty looking past the issues facing your own community is extremely common for human beings. But harping on blacks for doing this, and then dragging in Prop 8, which happened MONTHS ago, seems to serve no other purpose than to paint a picture of how in general, blacks are pretty terrible.

[Robocommie]

I think that a lot of it has to do with the depiction of homosexuals in the mainstream media. The stereotype is always of white male yuppie 30-something gay dudes with nice middle class jobs that allow them to afford a spacious luxury apartment in Manhattan or San Francisco and all sorts of frivolous expenses.

That's a really good point; the media also tends to portray gay men as being incredibly shallow, and fixated on image and material things. The idea that a gay person is a complicated human being, not merely defined by consumerism, and someone who is free to simply have bad taste in clothes or whatever, not to mention a complicated personality and identity, is often completely absent.

[The Inquisitor]

If you disagree with OP, then answer this.

Should blacks in the US support a bill such as SB 1070? Why or why not?


If they want to support the bill, then let them. What's wrong with people expressing themselves?

[Endomorphian]

African Americans, just like everyone else, come it all political flavors. They're liberals, conservatives, libertarians, tea baggers(like one or two maybe)[..]

Good show. I nearly laughed in the middle of night at this statement.

[Jacobinist]

I originally only caught the tail end of this thread when I posted my reply.

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt with the OP and just chalk it up to frustration, but THAT SHIT ^^^ up there is racist, the typical "reverse racism omg you are playing the race card" bullshit. And that bullshit is offensive.

All in all your shit isn't constructively dealing with the issue of misunderstanding and lack of solidarity between repressed groups. And you are seriously exaggerating the lack of consciousness among blacks in the US. In my experience black people are consistently the most "tuned in" group of people I've interacted with, judging from the overall sum of my experiences with different groups of people. And I've heard members of that group say some ignorant shit, but without a doubt far less than any other group. I've met a lot of black folk that are more supportive of civil rights for latinos than some other latinos I've known! It's been very rare for me to catch any kind of shit from a black person, meanwhile I've seen latino people non-jokingly call eachother wetbacks and uncritically accept the idea that right-wingers only have a problem with "illegal" immigrants.

Also what about this shit: http://www.revleft.com/vb/converse.php?u=11225&u2=28305



What the fuck is that? What about the white people who voted in favor of banning gay marriage, do they get a pass? Damn right they do in your book because white people are immune to being judged as a mass. What the fuck basis do you have to say that black folk are in favor of that fascist bill? You got a few scientific polls? Even if a lot of them are, again, what about the overwhelming majority of the people who support that bill, you know that most of them are white.

You know what % of Arizona is black? I just looked it up: 3%. They aren't going to make a political different either fucking way, why do you give them so much attention?

I'm just going to call a spade a spade: you're fucking racist against black people. And to be honest your complaints about black solidarity are hypocritical as shit, considering that you are one of many latinos (including some of my relatives, to my shame and theirs) who are disgustingly biased against the black population of this country.


#1 Whites in Cali voted for prop 8 (ie to ban gay marriage) 49% in favor, 51% against. Latinos were 53% in favor, 47% against. Blacks however, were 70% in favor, 30% against it. Thats an overwhelming amount of black voters who feel that gays, in this example, DONT DESERVE CIVIL RIGHTS. And coming from the people who have suffered so much at the hands of whites, you'd expect them to be a little more understanding, dont ya think? Calling them out on this hypocritical stance is not being racist.

#2 Reverse racism? Hehe. I have people here on Revleft (robocommie) accepting and conceding that blacks probably see latinos as a threat to their economic/social status. I've heard many of my black friends make fun or crack jokes about real Africans. Ive also heard many latinos do the same about 'real' mexicans. Im not claiming reverse discrimination, Im claiming that so far, black civil rights leaders and groups (as far as Ive noticed) have done next to nothing to condemn SB 1070; a law that enforces and legalizes profilling of mostly brown latinos; eg a law that allows state authorities to profile based on color/ethnicity/culture. Where's Jesse Jackson when you need him?

#3 3% black in Arizona; so fucking what? And what is the percentage of blacks in the country in general? We have groups planning protests here in LA for May Day calling for SB 1070 to be over turned. That is, latino groups (which include many african-americans and black latinos) in California who aren't affected by the Arizona law, standing in solidarity with our comrades in Arizona. Forgive me for asking American-ized blacks to do the same.

#4 Im not racist. I see hypocritical actions, and Im calling them out on it. If the reverse were true, and the law was targeting 'illegal Africans,' and most Latinos didnt care or actually supported the bill (look ^ for Prop 8 example) then my OP post would have been directed at the latino community for being watered down idiots content with what the 'man' has given them.

#5 Robocommie, you're weak.

[Jacobinist]

If they want to support the bill, then let them. What's wrong with people expressing themselves?

Whats wrong?

I find it astonishing that you would post that. Im sure many whites feel the same way about the 60's civil rights movement. :rolleyes:

http://www.oxfordaasc.com/public/features/archive/0507/images/pe0011-01.jpg

http://choward.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/bvbedu.jpg

http://blog.mywonderfulworld.org/2009/02/11/Little_Rock_Desegregation_1957.jpg

http://www-tc.pbs.org/wnet/supremecourt/democracy/images/cooper.jpg

Looks kind of like todays tea parties huh ^



Sad how quickly some people forget....

[CartCollector]

Where's Jesse Jackson when you need him?
He's too busy fighting to put charter schools in poor neighborhoods.

[Jacobinist]

^ hehe, thats pretty funny (but true) Cart.

FINALLY:

Al Sharpton and Lillian Rodriguez Lopez threatens to commit civil disobedience to fight the Arizona immigration bill SB 1070

http://www.aim.org/don-irvine-blog/al-sharpton-to-tackle-az-immigration-law/

[Bilan]

Jacobist, stop posting in huge font - it is really irritating, and no more photos. If you want to make a point, make a point.

I would also like to ad that your characterisation of African Americans is borderline racist. I'm only assuming that you're confused about the issue, hence why it is coming across this way. But I'm starting to have my doubts.

You should stop treating them as if they ought to be revolutionary and support all movements against racism and xenophobia.
Of course they, and anyone else, should. But it's not shocking to realise a lot of people don't.
It's no more surprising than hearing that working class folk vote for Tories, Liberals (Conservative's in Australia), Republicans, or far right parties.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Ok, I will try to adress some of the things you are asking about because I think you are falling for a deliberate line pushed by people in the media and reactionary groups themselves.

I have been organizing in Oakland California for a while now and while I know there are racial tensions, I think they are largly sensationalized and overblown by the media and politicians. I have seen many more examples of class-solidarity across racial lines than racial hostility. I did run into a lot of flack from black Christians when I was doing anti-prop 8 stuff, but even then when I made a civil rights pitch, most of the time I was able to make some ground - other times people just said "it's against god's will" and wouldn't listen to any reasonable argument. But on immigrant rights, I have seen amazing solidarity whereas I have encountered violent hostility in some well-off white neighborhoods while organizing for immigrant rights.

The part that race plays into this, I think is that for the most part working class people can be swayed more easily from the propaganda because of their own life-experiences. White people from suburbs that have not seen and do not belive in racial profiling are simply not going to be swayed by the racial profiling aspect of this Arizona bill - many minorities and young people in urban areas who do see racial profiling have an immediate grasp of what this bill means.

Prop 8:

Voting Statistics: For one thing, statistically, race is not a dividing line in the prop 8 story because if you divide the vote by age, you see that young people regardless of race where pro-gay marriage while people older than middle age where against it. In fact, the breakdown by age or race is statistically the same: of people over 55, 56% voted for prop 8, while for race, 56% of non-whites were opposed to same-sex marriage. So the day after the vote, many newspapers made the argument that race was a factor in prop 8 passing while never mentioning age! Divide and rule is my answer, backed by the following anecdotal evidence.

I live in Oakland in a community where the majority of people are immigrants or children of immigrants mostly from Mexico, Guatemala, and El Salvador. Blacks, whites, and asians make up the remaining 50-45% or so. During the prop 8 campaign, I was flooded with anti-gay marriage information from the proposition coalition (Mormon and catholic backed). The glossy fliers had pictures of only African Americans and had a big picture of Obama with a quote saying that he doesn't support gay marriage... the rest of the flier had pictures from black ministers arguing against gay marriage including one quote that explicitly called it a slap in the face to compare gay rights to black civil rights struggles. While there are many catholic blacks, there are not too many mormons, so why were Oakland residents being sent mailers with all black non-catholic and non-mormon religious figures... hmmm, could this be a targeted campaign to divide people and drve a racial wedge into movements for rights for oppressed people?

At the BART station near where I live, some paid protesters where handing out pro-8 info and a spontaneous group of counter-protesters with hand-made signs showed up to boot them out... most were young black people both men and women.

A old white neighbor of mine put a prop-8 sign on his front door and when I came back after 1 hour, it had already been defaced: "Support Prop 8" to "Don't Support Prop H8".

Arizona:

Well this morning I was on a picket line when I saw some people I knew from the local community college Black Student Union. One of the students is a socialist and was talking to the other BSU students about a rally this Tuesday to pressure Oakland to pass an Arizona Boycott. The students he was talking to had heard about the law and thought it was fucked up - they immediately grasped the racial profiling aspect and one even compared it to Arizona not recognizing MLK day.

Immigrant Rights:

The local media always tries to pit blacks in Oakland against the immigrant rights movement, yet in my community when the first big march happened, I saw two young black men get onto the hood of their car and give black power salutes to the Latino marchers and one of the marchers ran up and cheered with them and said something like: "This is what it's all about, respect for minorities and poor people standing together".

Conclusion:
You are right that bigotry is more complex than white and black relations, but for the most part, this kind of blaming some oppressed people for the oppression of other oppressed people is manufactured. The anti-immigrant groups are overwhelmingly white but do have a couple of token celebrity minorities that they parade out to prove that their anti-Latino-immigrant hysteria is not racially motivated. For the ruling class, divide and rule is their number one trick so anytime they can divide black and white and black and latino or immigrant and native or new immigrant and old immigrant, they will do so because it keeps us fighting over crumbs while they run off with the cake. Finally, and most importantly, radicals are not in the game of blaming workers for oppression; the liberal view of society is that we are a big melting pot of various cultures (races, ethnicity, religions, and even wealth levels) and that these groups fight with each other because of whatever reasons. Radicals, on the other hand, do not blame racism on individual white workers who might hold bigoted or racist views, we look at the role of oppression in society systemically. So to blame black workers or bigoted white workers for the passage of the Arizona law or Prop 8, is just a shallow and impressionistic way to understand oppression, because these workers did not create this society, the scarcity of jobs, national borders and immigration laws - they have only been won over by arguments in favor of oppression, which like the vast majority of the political arguments we hear has come from the ruling class.

[Comrade_Scott]

"Do blacks really understand civil rights?"

Fucking unreal.

as a black man i dont think its unreal.it is a valid point, being in Jamaica a lot of black americans come down to learn about black power etc and when we talk about civil rights and stuff it is almost exclusively black people this and black people that so and when you bring up discrimination against other people (latinos etc) it is not there problem or they should deal with it themselves.

what he is saying and rightfully so is that black persons should be more receptive to others plight especially racial one because the the shoe was and still is on the other (black persons) foot.

p.s he/she did say it in a ranting way so it is understandable why the topic is a bit touch and go

[Jacobinist]

I would also like to ad that your characterisation of African Americans is borderline racist.......

You should stop treating them as if they ought to be revolutionary and support all movements against racism and xenophobia.

Borderline racist? Im not talking about class concious blacks (or politically correct african-americans). Im referring to those who could care less about communism or Marxism, or tendency-ism. The ones, whom thanks to the mediocre and purposefully devised education/media system, have forgotten their own people struggles and victories. What Im saying, maybe not so clearly on this thread, is that if anybody should be anti-racist/xenophobic, it should be african-americans.


You are right that bigotry is more complex than white and black relations, but for the most part, this kind of blaming some oppressed people for the oppression of other oppressed people is manufactured. The anti-immigrant groups are overwhelmingly white but do have a couple of token celebrity minorities that they parade out to prove that their anti-Latino-immigrant hysteria is not racially motivated. For the ruling class, divide and rule is their number one trick so anytime they can divide black and white and black and latino or immigrant and native or new immigrant and old immigrant, they will do so because it keeps us fighting over crumbs while they run off with the cake.

I actually agree with your post. Especially the divide and conquer scheme, which is something Im well aware of here in LA. Which is kind of the point Ive tried to make throughout the post (follow my posts). Blacks should stick together and unite with Latinos on this obviously racially driven law. As I posted earlier, Al Sharpton has finally come out of the woodwork and is planning a freedom walk in Arizona; thats what I would love to see more of.

[Lumpen Bourgeois]

#1 Whites in Cali voted for prop 8 (ie to ban gay marriage) 49% in favor, 51% against. Latinos were 53% in favor, 47% against. Blacks however, were 70% in favor, 30% against it. Thats an overwhelming amount of black voters who feel that gays, in this example, DONT DESERVE CIVIL RIGHTS.

I think you should check out this (http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-01-07/bay-area/17199504_1_same-sex-marriage-ban-black-voters-lesbian-task-force) article on black support for proposition 8.


…an analysis of precinct-level voting data on Prop. 8 from Alameda, Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Diego and San Francisco counties, which are home to nearly two-thirds of California's black voters, suggested that African American support for Prop. 8 was more likely about 58 percent.

It seems that black Californians aren't nearly as homophobic as the conventional wisdom suggests.

The figure is still slightly higher than average, but so what? What influences voting behavior is what I think we should be curious about, not which group we should censure for not comporting with our moral sense. Some might wonder how a large majority of Jews can support Israeli aggression against Palestinians, when they've been through so much suffering themselves historically. Should we go around saying "WAKE THE FUCK UP JEWS!!!"? What is that seriously going to accomplish? What do we gain by going around casting condemnation at these groups? Brownie points for eschewing "political correctness"?

One's social views are shaped by a myriad of factors(which has been gone over already in this thread, so I won't dwell on them here) and I don't see why black's would be any less susceptible to them than any other group.

[Jacobinist]

I think you should check out this (http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-01-07/bay-area/17199504_1_same-sex-marriage-ban-black-voters-lesbian-task-force) article on black support for proposition 8.



It seems that black Californians aren't nearly as homophobic as the conventional wisdom suggests.

The figure is still slightly higher than average, but so what? What influences voting behavior is what I think we should be curious about, not which group we should censure for not comporting with our moral sense. Some might wonder how a large majority of Jews can support Israeli aggression against Palestinians, when they've been through so much suffering themselves historically. Should we go around saying "WAKE THE FUCK UP JEWS!!!"? What is that seriously going to accomplish? What do we gain by going around casting condemnation at these groups? Brownie points for eschewing "political correctness"?

One's social views are shaped by a myriad of factors(which has been gone over already in this thread, so I won't dwell on them here) and I don't see why black's would be any less susceptible to them than any other group.

From your article:

"That support among blacks is still well above the 52 percent Prop. 8 received from all voters in the Nov. 4 election"

And its not a good source. It provides no proof. It simply states:

But an analysis of precinct-level voting data on Prop. 8 from Alameda, Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Diego and San Francisco counties, which are home to nearly two-thirds of California's black voters, suggested that African American support for Prop. 8 was more likely about 58 percent.

Ummm, why? What analysis? What was used to determine the factors?


I really dont want to get into arguing over sources or credibility issues, etc. So I wont go any further. But why attack blacks? Im not, at least I think Im not. Class concious blacks, with out a doubt, are not the ones im talking about. A people who have been seen as second class citizens their whole history, should be entirely opposed to subjugating others to such status, agree? Kind of like how blacks usually end up being 95-98% Democrat in elections; that kind of way.

My initial OP came from people I had come across in personal day-to-day experiences. The brothers who understand history and American society with out a doubt agree about the SB 1070 bullshit. But many 'general population' blacks said some fucked up shit, the kind of shit you expect from an ignorant white supramecists, except that these people weren't race supremacists, they were national-supremacist. 'We're Americans,' 'they're taking our jobs,' 'its your guys turn now,' etc.

This wasnt the first time I'd expeienced this with black people too. And hence, why this thread became a Prop 8 debate. Back then too, many blacks (that I talked to personally) resisted the notion that gay rights belong under general civil rights. Sometimes even quoting the bible!!! (which has tons and tons of accepting slave passages).