The Anti-Germans...are they Leninists or Councilists?

[Palingenisis]

Someone told me that the Anti-Germans come out of "council-communism" but I saw in another place that they emerged from the "anti-revisionist" movement...Or is it at case that they have various roots and if so what can most of them be considered now?

[Devrim]

No, they don't come out of council communism. I think, but I am not sure that their roots are in Maoism. I don't think it is that big a step from Maoism actually. All you have to do is change you analysis of who is an oppresed nation, but not your basic anaylsis.

There is a group that made a similar switch in Turkey. One minute they were pro-PKK, and the next they were organising together with the fascist 'Grey Wolves'. The interseting thing was that they did it without changing their political theory. The only change that was neccesary was to decide Turkey was an oppressed nation.

Devrim

[Palingenisis]

PrincipiaDialecta which is alligned I think to at least some of the "Anti-Germans" if far from Maoism, more a Situationism without redeeming features and situationism does come (or at least see's itself coming from) the faction of the KAPD around Otto Ruhle. Not all "Anti-Revisionism" is Maoist as seen from the fact that most of the Anti-Revisionist movement in Europe was more in line with Albania than China.

There was an "Anti-Revisionist" group in Ireland called BICO which came up with the "two nations" theory and supported the UVF, etc on that basis. "Crossing in the border" is supposed to be very influenced by their work (they had a huge influence both on Unionism and the Pro-British faction of the southern Capitalists...but where just to over the top for most people to admit that they were influenced by them). Their hatred of what could be called "organic culture", praise of industrialism and love affair with their country's traditional enemies certainly had a lot in common with the "Anti-Germans". BICO has switched over to supporting Catholic nationalism now (I mean something specific by that...a nationalism based around religion, zenophobia and anti-communism such as Libertas drew on).

[Palingenisis]

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/the-irish-left-archive-workers-weeklyworkers-association-british-and-irish-communist-organisation-july-1974/

[Devrim]

PrincipiaDialecta which is alligned I think to at least some of the "Anti-Germans" if far from Maoism, more a Situationism without redeeming features...
I don't think that PD are at all 'anti-German'. I think that the Anti-German' thing is a peculiar German national current. PD are more like pseudo-situationists who have been caught up in anti-Muslim propaganda.


and situationism does come (or at least see's itself coming from) the faction of the KAPD around Otto Ruhle.

I don't think it did really.


Not all "Anti-Revisionism" is Maoist as seen from the fact that most of the Anti-Revisionist movement in Europe was more in line with Albania than China.

But Hoxhaism is just another form of Maoism. I don't think that is that much of a difference between them, just a question of which state was paying the bills. Revisionism in the modern sense (i.e. not Bernstein's revisionism) is a Maoist concept. You never hear Trotskyists going on about 'revisionists' for example. I think that revisionism is by definition Maoist, or some sub-sect of Maoism.

Devrim

[Palingenisis]

But Hoxhaism is just another form of Maoism. I don't think that is that much of a difference between them, just a question of which state was paying the bills. Revisionism in the modern sense (i.e. not Bernstein's revisionism) is a Maoist concept. You never hear Trotskyists going on about 'revisionists' for example. I think that revisionism is by definition Maoist, or some sub-sect of Maoism.

Devrim


"Council communist ideas have since been taken on by many libertarian communists around the world with groups like Socialisme ou Barbarie (http://libcom.org/library/socialisme-ou-barbarie) and the Situationist International (http://libcom.org/library/situationist-international) being greatly influenced by them."

http://libcom.org/thought/council-communism-an-introduction

They also re-published some old Councilist texts. The ICC though dont seem to like Socialisme ou Barbarie or the Situationists much.

Also the leading Hoxhaite theortician in the English speaking world was saying that China was capitalist and unlike the USSR had never had a working class in power back in the 1960s. Hoxhaites are pretty anti-Mao for various reasons.

[Palingenisis]

No, they don't come out of council communism. I think, but I am not sure that their roots are in Maoism. I don't think it is that big a step from Maoism actually. All you have to do is change you analysis of who is an oppresed nation, but not your basic anaylsis.


"In its first few years of existence, the journal Bahamas served as a pluralistic journal for a variety of currents of the radical left united by a common opposition to German nationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationalism), racism, and anti-semitism, as well as against apologetic currents within the left which sought to relativize such issues. Gradually, this diversity of perspectives gave way to a tendency oriented towards a Freiburger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiburg_im_Breisgau) organization known as the "Socialist Forum Initiative (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Socialist_Forum_Initiative&action=edit&redlink=1)" (Initiative Sozialistisches Forum), a radical left formation mixing elements of council communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_communism) and elements of Critical Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Theory), particular Theodor W. Adorno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_W._Adorno) and the Frankfurt School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School). At around the time of this shift in perspective, many of the former KB members left the editorial circle of the journal. In 2007 Haaretz described Bahamas as "the leading publication of the hardcore pro-Israel, Anti-German communist movement."[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current)#cite_note-haaretzanti-7)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current)

But Wikipedia isnt always to be trusted...

[bricolage]

They also re-published some old Councilist texts. The ICC though dont seem to like Socialisme ou Barbarie or the Situationists much.

I actually just asked a question about this on the left communist group here.
Personally I don't agree with that position at all, I think both represent a genuine and commendable political trajectory.

[Ravachol]

"In its first few years of existence, the journal Bahamas served as a pluralistic journal for a variety of currents of the radical left united by a common opposition to German nationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationalism), racism, and anti-semitism, as well as against apologetic currents within the left which sought to relativize such issues. Gradually, this diversity of perspectives gave way to a tendency oriented towards a Freiburger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiburg_im_Breisgau) organization known as the "Socialist Forum Initiative (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Socialist_Forum_Initiative&action=edit&redlink=1)" (Initiative Sozialistisches Forum), a radical left formation mixing elements of council communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_communism) and elements of Critical Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Theory), particular Theodor W. Adorno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_W._Adorno) and the Frankfurt School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School). At around the time of this shift in perspective, many of the former KB members left the editorial circle of the journal. In 2007 Haaretz described Bahamas as "the leading publication of the hardcore pro-Israel, Anti-German communist movement."[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current)#cite_note-haaretzanti-7)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current)

But Wikipedia isnt always to be trusted...

They are to be trusted on this one. The Anti-German current grew out of a mix of Critical Theory and a bizarre inversion of German nationalism. I recommend this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-germansi-t127324/index.html) for more information. It's an interesting discussion.

[Palingenisis]

They are to be trusted on this one. The Anti-German current grew out of a mix of Critical Theory and a bizarre inversion of German nationalism. I recommend this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-germansi-t127324/index.html) for more information. It's an interesting discussion.

I think everyone agrees that they have been influenced by "Critical theory"...Its their relationship to Council-Communism is that is in question.

[hardlinecommunist]

I don't think that PD are at all 'anti-German'. I think that the Anti-German' thing is a peculiar German national current. PD are more like pseudo-situationists who have been caught up in anti-Muslim propaganda.



I don't think it did really.



But Hoxhaism is just another form of Maoism. I don't think that is that much of a difference between them, just a question of which state was paying the bills. Revisionism in the modern sense (i.e. not Bernstein's revisionism) is a Maoist concept. You never hear Trotskyists going on about 'revisionists' for example. I think that revisionism is by definition Maoist, or some sub-sect of Maoism.

Devrim as much as he later tried to play it down Enver Hoxha did come out of Maoism or what was called Mao Zedong Thought at the time but do not let any Hoxhaite hear you called Hoxhaism just another form of Maoism

[Palingenisis]

as much as he later tried to play it down Enver Hoxha did come out of Maoism or what was called Mao Zedong Thought at the time but do not let any Hoxhaite hear you called Hoxhaism just another form of Maoism

Thats not exactly fair I think. Various groups and individuals seperated from the revsionists in the 50s and early 60s. They rallied around China as the largest socialist force but they were basically interested in continuing the CPs as they had been before hand. Im not sure how particularly "Maoist" Enver Hoxha ever was.

[Ravachol]

I think everyone agrees that they have been influenced by "Critical theory"...Its their relationship to Council-Communism is that is in question.

This notion stems from the fact that most of the Anti-D current grew from the 'Initiative Sozialistisches Forum' in Freiburg. The ISF mixed Frankfurter schule theories with Council Communist concepts although their publications seem to be rather schizophrenic. Most publications were printed by 'Ca Ira verlag', the ISF publishing agency which is also the official german publisher of Moishe Postone's work. Interestingly, 'Ca Ira' also publishes neo-conservative texts on Iraq and Israel. Today, however, most anti-D theory seems to pay only lip services to council communists like Cajo Brendel, Pannekoek and Otto Ruhle publishing their pamphlets but drawing most of their theory from identity-politics influenced postmodernists or Labour-Zionist currents.

A lot is summed up in:

Furchtbare Antisemiten, ehrbare Antizionisten (http://www.isf-freiburg.org/verlag/buecher/isf-antizionismus.html)

and

Der kommunismus und Israel (http://www.isf-freiburg.org/isf/beitraege/isf-kommunismus.israel.html)

My personal experiences with Anti-D are mixed. I stood next to a group of moderate Anti-D at an anti-fascist demo who didn't seem to really have any theoretical basis except for the fact that they liked the (quite good, really :p) Anti-D electro band Egotronic.

Another experience was in a Squat in the east of the Netherlands where me and several other anarchists were nearly assaulted by some cookoo-insane hardline Anti-D who went on to rage about our Keffiyehs and the pro-palestine button of one comrade claiming 'Palestine is the most fascist "Nation" in the world' and that only the USA and Israel could set the Netherlands and Germany free from Capitalism and anti-semitism :blink:

[Proletarian Ultra]

They seem to be basically unhinged liberals.

If the Anti-Germans had any integrity they'd be cheering for Erich Honecker, not Israel.

[Leo]

The Anti-Germans organically come from an organization called Der Kommunistische Bund, which started off as a Maoist organization, and then took the side of Albania in the Sino-Albanian split.


Thats not exactly fair I think. Various groups and individuals seperated from the revsionists in the 50s and early 60s. They rallied around China as the largest socialist force but they were basically interested in continuing the CPs as they had been before hand. Im not sure how particularly "Maoist" Enver Hoxha ever was.

This is very naive. Of course all who adopted the line of China after the Sino-Soviet split had to adhere to the official line of China, which was Maoism. This not only includes those such as Enver Hoxha, but also all pro-Chinese parties. There is always an official line in Stalinism. After the Sino-Albanian split, most Maoist organizations had pro-Albanian splits, while some actually adopted the Albanian line and had pro-Chinese splits. There is a pattern here, really, in regards to splits within Stalinism. The same thing had happened in the international Stalinist movement after the Sino-Soviet split.