Are we socialists classist?

[AK]

Are we classist? Classism refers to discrimination, prejudice or a feeling of superiority on the grounds of social class. Do you think we are classist? Or do you think we see class relations in purely material terms? An argument for this might be that we seek to remove the material conditions that allow classes to arise - but many do, of course, despise the Bourgeoisie. Do you think that many in the left view the working class as superior, or that we simply wish to erase classes? An argument for this might be that there are some Petit-Bourgeois communists.

[Crusade]

Well, I despise the Bourgeoisie because I believe in Democracy. I mean imagine instead of studying and passing a test yourself you gave 70% of your credits to some guy because he supplied you pencils and notebooks. After a while you just have to ask: "WHY ARE YOU HERE"? I mean in some fields it's better to have a class specialize in administration, such as in combat(imagine democratically voting in the middle of battle XD), but in production, not only are they not necessary, they're actually counter productive when it comes to efficiency and take most of our money. I mean slavery can build pyramids and everything but democracy can shape a world in the image of those who live in it. It's not that my class is "superior", I just think that one class is completely and utterly useless and is a blood sucking leech that needs to stay the hell away from me, that's all.

Oh and *bows to fellow libertarian*

[mikelepore]

Do you think that many in the left view the working class as superior, or that we simply wish to erase classes?

I don't know about many in the left, but Marx's position was:

"When the proletariat wins victory, it by no means becomes the absolute side of society, for it wins victory only by abolishing itself and its opposite."

-- in _The Holy Family_ [1845]

"The condition for the emancipation of the working class is the abolition of every class...."

-- in _The Poverty of Philosophy_ [1847]

[Glenn Beck]

Are we classist?

Yes. Yes we are.

[Sir Comradical]

Petit-bourgeois communists? You mean like Frederich Engels'?

[AK]

Petit-bourgeois communists? You mean like Frederich Engels'?
Yes, and a few members on this very forum. I forget who.

[Velkas]

I despise the bourgeoisie. I do not despise the people within the bourgeoisie, I despise the system that has led to the existence of such a class, the system that has destroyed freedom and equality and instead favors the few, the system that has made the bourgeoisie what it is.

[khad]

No, we're racist. Racist against the rich. :rolleyes:

[x371322]

I advocate equality. True equality. I hope to see this system, which actually gives rise to these unequal social classes, abolished for good. I see the working class as the only one capable of achieving that change. For we are the only one's with nothing to lose. If that makes me a classist, then I'll happily embrace the title.

[lulks]

yes, i do think capitalists are immoral people. i don't see what's wrong with that

[Proletarian Ultra]

Petit-bourgeois communists? You mean like Frederich Engels'?

Wasn't Engels haute?

[Zanthorus]

I don't hate the individual members of the capitalist class. I hate capitalists as a structural category.

[Robocommie]

Wasn't Engels haute?

Yeah, his father owned a factory.

And Karl Marx' wife Jenny von Westphalen was from an aristocratic family, she was the daughter of the Baron of Westphalen. Marx himself was from a professional family, his father was a lawyer. Honestly, it's hard to say whether or not Marx would have been able to get the education that exposed him to German Idealism and the economic theories that influenced him without that background.

[which doctor]

I hate the word classist, especially when used in tandem with words like racist, sexist, etc. because class is an entirely different category than concepts like race and gender. Marxism isn't necessarily about the working-class (a sociological category), but about the proletariat (a political category), and we need to be careful to distinguish the two. Marx didn't make a virtue out of the proletariat because they were the oppressed and toiling masses, but because after 1848, they were the only revolutionary class, and thus the only ones in the position to overcome capitalism. This point is important for a dialectical understanding of the overcoming of capitalism. Capitalism at once provides the precondition for the 'becoming' of the working class in sociological terms, and also for the 'being' of the proletariat in political terms. This is what class consciousness is all about, the proletariat's self-conscious understanding of its 'being' and its role as the only revolutionary class capable of overcoming capitalism. This is what Marx means when he says that society only sets itself such problems as it is capable of overcoming.


Wasn't Engels haute?
Yes, quite. A bourgeois intellectual if there ever was one. He spent his weekends horseback riding around the English countryside. At least he had a working-class girlfriend, if that counts for anything.


And Karl Marx' wife Jenny von Westphalen was from an aristocratic family, she was the daughter of the Baron of Westphalen. Marx himself was from a professional family, his father was a lawyer. Honestly, it's hard to say whether or not Marx would have been able to get the education that exposed him to German Idealism and the economic theories that influenced him without that background.
I don't think it's hard to say, quite easy in fact. There's no question that he wouldn't have been afforded the privilege to attend university, circulate amongst the Young Hegelians, etc. if he hadn't come from a well off family. Interestingly, Jenny's father was Marx's intellectual mentor when he was young, and the two families were neighbors. But Jenny and Karl lived in poverty nearly all of their life. Jenny had to sell the silver she inherited to be able to support their family and the creditors were always knocking on the door of the Marx family to collect their debts. The inheritance Marx received when his father died was spent to fund the publication of his books and given to workers organizations. The only job Marx ever actually had his entire life, was writing a column for the New York Tribune for a meager pittance, and Engels mostly wrote these articles for him.

[syndicat]

well, it's interesting that our adjective "class struggle", as in "class struggle unionism", would get translated in Spanish as clasista. We advoate classism in the sense of struggle against the dominating classes. We think anger against their authoritarianism and depredations is good. so, I would say, yes, we're classist.

Like which doctor, I also hate the word "classism." It makes it sound as tho the problem with class is that the lower class are looked down upon or discriminated against. That's a liberal way of looking at class.

[this is an invasion]

I'm classist as fuck.

[Nolan]

Using the word "classist" is a new fad among to right to equate anti-inequality with racism or evoke images of racism. It's quite a pathetic tactic.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I hate the word classist, especially when used in tandem with words like racist, sexist, etc. because class is an entirely different category than concepts like race and gender.

I'm sorry, but isn't there a big difference between race & gender too? Also, there's a similarity between the three as well. My race: white; Gender: Male; Class: working class. I was born white, like I was born male, just like I was born within the working class, struggling in the projects & only finding myself moving to another projects, but with different races. So no, I see no difference between classist, racist, sexist, etc.

[which doctor]

I'm sorry, but isn't there a big difference between race & gender too? Also, there's a similarity between the three as well. My race: white; Gender: Male; Class: working class. I was born white, like I was born male, just like I was born within the working class, struggling in the projects & only finding myself moving to another projects, but with different races. So no, I see no difference between classist, racist, sexist, etc.
As Marxists understand it, class is a structural phenomenon specific to capitalism. One's class is defined by the capacity in which they work. For instance, those who have nothing to sell but their labour power are called the proletariat. Things like sex and skin color biologically determined, they are not historically transient categories. Besides, capitalism can work just fine in a society where no one cares about your skin color or genitals, but it cannot do without the concept of class.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I must admit to having entertained "classist" notions at times, as opposed to class strugglism. This "classism" tends to be directed at the One Reactionary Mass of First World petit-bourgeoisie (small business owners), self-employed jocks, cops, lawyers, judges, etc. than at the worst elements of the bourgeoisie, precisely because the One Reactionary Mass is more vocal.

[The Gallant Gallstone]

Using the word "classist" is a new fad among to right to equate anti-inequality with racism or evoke images of racism. It's quite a pathetic tactic.

But is it effective? I think it must be at least partially effective if we've got people asking whether or not we're "classist." If it's an intentional effort by the right, I believe it will backfire... anything that increases class-consciousness (even a label as sloppy as "classist") can only serve to benefit us in the long-term.

To avoid the trap yourself, all you have to do is to take the individual's specific words and actions into account. Individual millionaires can be quite sympathetic to socialism while individual workers can be quite rigorously opposed.

If anything, I'd say "classism" is a trait of those with no firm ideology. I see it frequently in the middle class; they abhor both the perceived extravagances of the wealthy and the "crime and squalor" of the lower-middle and working classes.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I hate the capitalist class because they uphold a fundamentally wrong system which is unequal and unfair. They value profit over humanity.

[anticap]

Believe it or not, in my experience it goes the other way, too. Meaning that not only do socialists view the bourgeoisie with contempt, but that the more educated among us display a palpable... oh, I'll call it "irritability," with regard to the working poor. This claim is usually met with a highly-affected and almost comical incredulity when I raise it, since socialists do, after all, advocate and agitate on behalf of a society democratically controlled by the working class. The problem, though, is that the more educated socialists sometimes appear to have a low tolerance for the less-educated. They don't really seem to like us very much.

If that's all there was to it, I could probably tolerate it by laughing it off. But what's intolerable is when I'm labeled an "anti-intellectual" for daring to suggest such a thing, even though I've experienced it, and so have many of my friends.

anti-snob =/= anti-intellectual