the Crass legacy, a postive or an negative?

[Foldered]

I always felt like Crass did a pretty good job of not falling prey to the capitalist nature of the recording industry.
Of course the music industry is dominated by money; at this point, any industry is, that's capitalism. I think at this point it is crucial that bands not fall into the hands of huge labels, etc.

[Sasha]

I always felt like Crass did a pretty good job of not falling prey to the capitalist nature of the recording industry.
Of course the music industry is dominated by money; at this point, any industry is, that's capitalism. I think at this point it is crucial that bands not fall into the hands of huge labels, etc.


too bad they fell for the pacifist nature of being total useless counter-revolutionairy wankers. Like mark barnsley said, nothing did more damage to the revolutionary potential of punk than fucking crass.

[Foldered]

too bad they fell for the pacifist nature of being total useless counter-revolutionairy wankers. Like mark barnsley said, nothing did more damage to the revolutionary potential of punk than fucking crass.
That's a bit of an exaggeration, if you ask me.

[Sasha]

discussion splitted from here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/radical-hardcore-anarchist-t133400/index.html?p=1732585#post1732585



from the biografy of the dutch punk band the rondo's:



Around that time Peter from Backstreet showed us a bizarre LP from London: The feeding of the 5000 by Crass. We were overwhelmed. An enormous noise, driven by the beat of a drum and accompanied by serious ranting and raving, lasting the entire two sides of the album. We’d never heard the word ‘fuck’ that often on one record before. In Huize Schoonderloo we held our breaths as we listened to Crass’ anti-musical music many times over. Something that resembled tracks started to take shape. We read the lyrics and looked closely at the sheet covered in fascist-like symbolism. They were great! Better than us!
We sent them an enthusiastic letter, some of our issues and a single. We immediately got a very nice letter in return, with Crass buttons we should by no means feel obliged to wear and a Crass lyrics book, handmade and stencilled. They wondered if we wanted to come to England to perform together. We sure did. We decided to take a trip to England. Dick and Mildred filmed our departure from Hook of Holland. We saw a Crass concert in London. What an experience. The whole thing soon degenerated into a fight, initiated by a gang of skinheads who were violently terrorizing the venue. To our utter amazement Crass initially played on as if nothing was happening.
The following day we visited Dial House in the countryside on the outskirts of London. Penny Rimbaud, Crass’ drummer and clearly its source of inspiration too, gave us a warm welcome. He’d been in the kitchen all day and had baked all kinds of vegan vegetable pies, especially for us. Were we hungry? We told him it was kind of him but we’d just scoffed some hamburgers in London somewhere. Vegetarianism was still one step beyond us. Crass were surprised we weren’t fifteen-year-olds. That is how our music had sounded on the single we sent them. What do you say to that? To make things better G. said it was meant as a compliment. Rather sweet.
We were invited to perform with Crass and Poison Girls in London the following September. We were already looking forward to it. They asked if we could leave the hammer and sickle at home, because they were likely to have the wrong effect on the skinheads who faithfully frequented Crass’ gigs. We agreed to everything.
We returned to London in September. We were wearing nice black suits with red Politischer Schutzhaftling (‘political activists in protective custody’) triangles. Admittedly inspired by Crass’ militant uniforms. Up to then we’d usually worn cheerful, colourful football shirts bought on flea markets. But by then everybody was doing that, you see.
The Crass members lived and worked together for the good cause like we did. They were incredibly friendly, a little older and a little more intellectual. And the ladies were rather feminist. “We pay with our bodies.” We were still boyish and open-minded, but certainly not stupid. We got on straight away, especially with Penny who just seemed incredibly old to us. He had to be almost forty! He was very friendly, however, and had clearly been influenced by oriental philosophy. Zen, if you like. We spotted modest Buddha statuettes here and there in the beautifully decorated country home and in the middle of a conversation he suddenly pointed at the wooden coffee table and said: “This teapot is borrowed from the universe.” Everyone fell silent. You could have heard a pin drop and we all stared at the teapot on the table that looked very normal to us. We’d not seen that one coming.
We stayed the night. They willingly put their rooms and beds at our disposal. The day of the concert arrived, a benefit concert for anarchist prisoners in England. Crass practised the transitions between the songs, which they played without pausing, like they did on their records. We hung around in their delightful garden. Steve Ignorant, Crass’ brilliant singer, polished everyone’s Dr. Martens boots. He asked how we could remain so calm just before a performance. We smiled, because we didn’t understand the question. He told us he kept running to the toilet with nerves all day. We raised our eyebrows. That afternoon we arrived at the Conway Hall in Crass’ van. The place was swarming with skinheads. The fascist National Front had just held a big meeting. In the Conway Hall, of all places.
The atmosphere in the venue just before that night’s performance was vicious. Fights broke out near the toilets in the corridor between different groups of skinheads supporting different football clubs. They marched ostentatiously into the room, with bloody hands and faces. They raised their arms in the Nazi salute. The Rondos played. Apart from the odd broken string the gig went perfect. We got good reactions. Poison Girls played. There was a lot of Hex-like behaviour from female fans. Their vocals were rather theatrical, but still it was a great show, supported noisily by a gang of Westham skins thrashing the balcony.
Then all hell broke loose. It all happened very fast. People were getting punched and kicked. Panic broke out. The audience scattered. We lifted small skinheads on to the stage so they wouldn’t get trampled. They cried with shock and fear and were barely eleven or twelve years old. People were lying on the floor. The police arrived and cleared the room. The skins were told to hand in their shoelaces. Peace returned and staff scrubbed the floor and mopped up the blood. Apparently, members of the Anti Nazi League and the Socialist Workers Party (SWP) had clashed with skinheads of the British Movement and the National Front, who had stayed behind in pubs around the Cornway Hall after the NF meeting to come to Crass’ gig that evening. A Jewish activist from the SWP walked up to the stage and pointed his finger at Crass. Your fault!

We grabbed our things and got in the van. We were packed together and very quiet. We went by a Chinese take-away for some vegan spring rolls. At Crass’ place a discussion ensued. The tone was friendly, but still. Shouldn’t you protect yourself from this kind of violence? They frequently wrestled with these problems. Crass had become a target for skinheads who were attracted to their furious music, militant appearance and swastika-like symbols, but who rejected anarchist and pacifist ideas. Crass refused to employ bouncers or let the venue hire them, even though that was a common thing in London in those days. It was a question of principles but should the audience be put through all this? You do invite them to come to your gigs, after all. Is it fair to deliver them unprotected to hordes of skinheads, fascist or not, while you are safely on the stage? It was fair, said Crass, for that was simply the situation in London at that time and they didn’t want to be ‘anti’. Crass said we didn’t understand, coming from the peaceful Netherlands. Crass’ pacifist anarchism, although admirable, opposed The Rondos’ more militant attitude.
We said goodbye the next day. We agreed to do more concerts in England together, organize a common tour of the Netherlands and there were plans to record an LP with Crass’ help. We’d talk about it all later. In the meantime the newspapers in England were full of the Conway Hall battle. The only venue, by the way, that had offered the National Front a space to meet, from the fundamental conviction that everyone has the right of assembly.
When we got back home to peaceful Huize Schoonderloo Andy, Crass’ guitar player, telephoned us. They had decided not to collaborate with us after all. Yes, we did do the same thing and yes, personally they thought we were very nice and sympathetic, but still. Later we received a letter from Penny. They didn’t want to confuse the audience by playing with a band that had different views. Besides, we had some sympathy for the People’s Republic of China. Also a difficulty.
We were rather baffled. Obviously we understood that they were under direct physical threat from National Front skinheads. If they’d taken that as an argument, we would’ve immediately endorsed and appreciated it. But they were turning it into an ideological issue. They just didn’t want to be seen with us. Letters were sent both ways. No results. Still we didn’t give in. Raket published vicious articles we wrote about the Crass vs. Rondos controversy. We thought it relevant because in the Netherlands too, the Crass ideology was spreading and racism, propagated by different neo-Nazi groups, was emerging and poisoning the punk scene. The issue simply had to be addressed. In hindsight we may have been too bitter and disappointed, and thus let things get too tense. We did, however, get votes of sympathy from London punks who were tired of the skinhead terror and wanted to strike back, but felt hindered by Crass. The discussion spread across the Dutch punk scene. You can look it all up in Raket.


ian bone also wrote exstensivly about the problems with crass their pacisfism/cowardice, ill look it up...

[Pirate Utopian]

With the exception of a few songs, Crass is shit.

[Timelord]

I agree with a lot of the things Crass said, but not the Pacifism. Also, their condemnation of the Oi! movement was bullshit.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

How much revolutionary potential was there to punk before Crass, though? FWIW, this site has some good texts on the subject (http://www.uncarved.org/music/apunk/index.html).

[Timelord]

None. Before Crass, Punk was just about being anti-authority. It was something to shock your parents and teachers. Crass were certainly the first 'Political' punk band and that was carried on by Conflict.

[Foldered]

I guess my perspective is is that I like a lot of where they're coming from, musically. Their songs are charged. If you're not pacifist (which I'm not), then I understand why it's hard to understand them, or at least easy to say that they didn't stand up when they had a chance (especially in the case of this article/situation).
And albums like Penis Envy were really ahead of their time with regard to women's rights and more postmodern perspectives of feminism.
These are, in my opinion, types of achievements. No, they weren't perfect, and obviously they should have shifted their pacifism a bit, but I still think their positive impacts are more important than the negatives.

[Sasha]

I agree with a lot of the things Crass said, but not the Pacifism. Also, their condemnation of the Oi! movement was bullshit.

funny thing is that apperantly in the current line up of the current crass tour the ex-guitarist of the buisiness is playing aswell. i think its typical of their hypocrisy, they always clouded their cowardice and ignorance with pseudo politics.

i will offcourse still go and see them when they play my work this summer btw

[Sasha]

How much revolutionary potential was there to punk before Crass, though?


bands like MC5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MC5) where already political punks way before punk was invented.

[Foldered]

bands like MC5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MC5) where already political punks way before punk was invented.
Definitely going to look into this. Thanks.

[Red North]

I always felt like Crass did a pretty good job of not falling prey to the capitalist nature of the recording industry.
Of course the music industry is dominated by money; at this point, any industry is, that's capitalism. I think at this point it is crucial that bands not fall into the hands of huge labels, etc.

I've always viewed the big labels as sort of a catch 22. On one hand, a leftist band signing to a big label brings more money into the pockets of greedy capitalists and goes against everything we believe in. But on the other hand, on a big record label the music is gonna reach alot more people, effectivly spreading leftist ideals to a broader range of people than is usually possible on a small or independent label (there are exceptions to this of course). Its a pretty unfortunate trade off either way.

[BAM]

I don't know too much about Crass. As a band, they're not really my thing. However, a band on their record label, Zounds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zounds), did record some excellent material. They have more of a post-punk/new wave sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8w14IaS8Us

[The Ungovernable Farce]

i will offcourse still go and see them when they play my work this summer btw
I don't think I'd go and see them today, although if I was getting paid to do it I probably would. Didn't even realise they were touring. Anyway, I think this article gives a really good summing-up of both why they were incredibly problematic and why they were still worthwhile (http://lucidfrenzy.blogspot.com/2008/05/ill-make-no-subscription-to-your.html).

[Timelord]

'The Curse Of Zounds' is a great album. And also the 'Can't Cheat Karma.' 7" EP. And they are back touring.

[khad]

Worthless is the only way to describe them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivJyD9sz-qM&NR=1

You talk about your revolution, well, that's fine
But what are you going to be doing come the time?
Are you going to be the big man with the tommy-gun?
Will you talk of freedom when the blood begins to run?
Well, freedom has no value if violence is the price
Don't want your revolution, I want anarchy and peace

[Foldered]

Being against violence doesn't make you worthless.

[BAM]

'The Curse Of Zounds' is a great album. And also the 'Can't Cheat Karma.' 7" EP. And they are back touring.

Yeah I have both the LP and the EP plus the This Land/Alone 7". I may have to catch them live if they are playing near me ... I can't understand why they aren't more well known. The had a great set of songs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3B0vgs1KUc

[brigadista]

crass were hippies in punk clothes

[gorillafuck]

Crass had stupid/kind of annoying views but a lot of their music sounds pretty good.

[khad]

Being against violence doesn't make you worthless.
The last person on revleft to use such a line against revolution was an FBI trainee.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/violence-vs-nonviolence-t133272/index.html?p=1722457#post1722457

[Foldered]

The last person on revleft to use such a line against revolution was an FBI trainee.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/violence-vs-nonviolence-t133272/index.html?p=1722457#post1722457
Just because I can sympathize with pacifists doesn't mean I'm an FBI trainee, but thank you for assuming the worst about me.
What I'm saying sure as hell doesn't sound like "and if you're going by the accepted definition it's terrorism. durrrr...."

Fuck that.

EDIT: And I don't want to disrespect you or anything, but I think initially comparing me to an FBI in training based on saying that non-violent people aren't worthless is a little bit of a low blow. I do understand where you're coming from though, obviously, but again, I find the comparison a little insulting.

[soyonstout]

I used to be really into CRASS. I think musically I'm definitely on board with the sometimes atonal, sort of droning style and the aggression of it, but I do think most of their songs are basically moralistic and idealistic in that they attempt to convert people to being "against the system" because it is unjust, rather than for material, class reasons.

I also think generally that the idea of "doing politics" through pop music is both too easy and also a dumb way of choosing a target audience (as opposed to the working class, CRASS chose to polemicize to people who were part of a somewhat nihilistic and basically middle-class, alientating/alienating sub-culture).

Lastly, their general message is about "being anarchist" on the margins of society, i.e. not something everyone can do--dropping out to protest, eat garbage, and not "take part" in "the system" of work, war, etc., but the thing about the working class that Marx identified as revolutionary was that they were at the heart of the system and could not "drop out" or quit to go live a more anarchistic life. They're stuck working for the man which both gives them a motivation to revolt and power in their revolt to actually transform the system from it's heart, rather than trying to build something in the ever-shrinking margins of the system. This detachment from class politics and class struggle I think lead to a lot of the other bad politics (lack of concern for class and/or lining up with inter-classist fronts, and idealist conceptions of change rather than materialist ones).

Basically, I think "do they owe us a living?" is one of the few songs I can actually get behind as a coherent political statement--but the rest is a bit more dicey, if not totally disagreeable.

Have you ever read "White Punks on Bordiga"? It's a pretty interesting assessment of the contradictions involved in being an anarchist pop group, although I don't think it addresses many of the concerns I outlined above, it definitely goes into other criticisms one could make generally of the idea of a revolutionary rock band.

uncarved.org/music/apunk/wpob.html

(sorry for the lack of https, but I still can't post links)

-soyons tout

[Sasha]

The last person on revleft to use such a line against revolution was an FBI trainee.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/violence-vs-nonviolence-t133272/index.html?p=1722457#post1722457


Just because I can sympathize with pacifists doesn't mean I'm an FBI trainee, but thank you for assuming the worst about me.
What I'm saying sure as hell doesn't sound like "and if you're going by the accepted definition it's terrorism. durrrr...."

Fuck that.

EDIT: And I don't want to disrespect you or anything, but I think initially comparing me to an FBI in training based on saying that non-violent people aren't worthless is a little bit of a low blow. I do understand where you're coming from though, obviously, but again, I find the comparison a little insulting.

Khad, that was out of line, behave, verbalwarning

[Glenn Beck]

Crass is an even more reactionary band than Rush, and Rush were a bunch of Ayn Rand fanboys

I simply can't get over how horribly shitty that song "Bloody Revolutions" is

[NGNM85]

I think Crass are a seriously mixed bag. The best I can say is they introduced a lot of people to radical politics. However, I think a lot of their ideas were fairly dubious and they could be major hypocrites, like constantly slagging off the Pistols and the Clash (Which were far superior bands.) while imitating their sound and style. They were also essentially 'lifestyle anarchists' to use Bookchin's phrase, which I think is really just sort of a pose. Musically, even for stripped-down, bare bones streetpunk it's really bad. The Germs and the Dead Kennedys weren't exactly virtuosos, but they were better than that.

[Foldered]

However, I think a lot of their ideas were fairly dubious and they could be major hypocrites, like constantly slagging off the Pistols and the Clash (Which were far superior bands.) while imitating their sound and style.
The Pistols were trash and were the ones imitating sound and style. They had no politics in their music, let alone bad politics (which is why a lot of people are not into Crass here). They simply hopped on the band wagon because they could see a trend starting.

[No pasarán]

I think Crass are a seriously mixed bag. The best I can say is they introduced a lot of people to radical politics. However, I think a lot of their ideas were fairly dubious and they could be major hypocrites, like constantly slagging off the Pistols and the Clash (Which were far superior bands.) while imitating their sound and style. They were also essentially 'lifestyle anarchists' to use Bookchin's phrase, which I think is really just sort of a pose. Musically, even for stripped-down, bare bones streetpunk it's really bad. The Germs and the Dead Kennedys weren't exactly virtuosos, but they were better than that.

I agree with most of this, though some members of crass were and still are serious anarchists. I know Penny Rimbaud (who wrote many of the lyrics) has since reevaluted some of his views (see the new introduction to 'last of the hippies') and is not as much of a pascifist. Still they have largely stuck by there values, which bands such as The Clash failed to at times.

Most Clash songs bore me, but they have there occasional moments and I think they deserve some credit for really introducing some heavier polotics into punk.

[NGNM85]

The Pistols were trash and were the ones imitating sound and style.

Then Crass are hypocrites imitating imitators while slagging them off.


They had no politics in their music, let alone bad politics (which is why a lot of people are not into Crass here). They simply hopped on the band wagon because they could see a trend starting.

I'm going to have to go and disagree with you there. The American punk and proto-punk scenes, and the British punk scene which emerged in London from the Sex Pistols had fundamental commonalities, they shared characteristics, but were essentially two distinct epochs. It wasn't until afterwards that the link was solidified and it became an international community.

Sid Vicious was really into the New York Dolls and the Velvet Underground, however, John Lydon was either indifferent to, or actively disliked most of the early American punk and proto-punk bands. He was really ecletic, he was really into Captain Beefheart, Hawkwind, the Doors, and he loved reggae, which was the preferred music in the early english punk scene because none of the bands had put out records yet. I can't recall any substantial evidence or testimony John Lydon was influenced by any of the early punk stuff. Most of the band's style, which is still present in modern punk rock, was really just his own offbeat, idiosyncratic style. He was walking around london wearing tattered clothes with green hair before he even joined the band.

The Pistols were extremely political, but they were political in the sense of the personal being political, they weren't ideological. However their music is filled with themes working-class rage, urban alienation, the intellectual and ethical poverty of consumer culture, the insanity of the cold war, hatred of authority, etc. It was more of a cultural rebellion.