Open letter to the Young Turks

[khad]

Open letter to TYT

Dear TYT,

I was deeply dismayed over your recent segment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIazx1YeU78) on the Frontline documentary on Bacha Bazi (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dancingboys/view/?utm_campaign=viewpage&utm_medium=grid&utm_source=grid), or the enslavement of young boys for sex in Afghanistan. While it is a serious problem that needs to be addressed, your treatment of it simply just gives yet another excuse for Americans to be racist against Afghans and Muslims. You need to start by reviewing your basic history. The child rapists being interviewed in that Frontline episode are NOT Taliban. They were doing "jihad" against the Soviet Union and the PDPA in the 1980s. You have to realize that the Taliban is second generational insurgent movement that emerged to combat what people saw as a corrupt and venal Mujahideen. In fact, the Taliban were responsible for the widespread suppression of Bacha Bazi until the US came in and got the former Mujahideen, now called the Northern Alliance, into power once more.

If you cared enough to watch more of the Frontline episode, the genealogy of the reintroduction of the practice is laid out clearly. According to one of the pedos, Bacha Bazi started among the Mujahideen in Pakistan, who then reintroduced it to Afghanistan. The Taliban emerged from the children in the refugee camps, ie, the group that would have been targeted by these pedophiles for sexual violence and exploitation. This problem is endemic to the entire Northern Alliance structure, and the army and police are some of these slavers' biggest customers, who even imprison the boys on bases built with US money. If you actually cared to watch the Frontline report to the 24 minute mark or so, you would see that UN rep stating that Bacha Bazi is a problem increasingly associated with "military commanders." And if you cared to watch to the 27 minute mark, you will see Afghan police attending a Bacha Bazi party. After seeing this, Cenk's line about "holy warriors" is utterly baffling.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6047938


ANKELA, Afghanistan (Reuters) - As British troops moved into the village newly freed from Taliban control, they heard one message from the anxious locals: for God's sake do not bring back the Afghan police ...

... as they advance, they are learning uncomfortable facts about their local allies: villagers say the government's police force was so brutal and corrupt that they welcomed the Taliban as liberators...

(Mohammad Gul, an elder in the village of Pankela) pointed to two compounds of neighbors where pre-teen children had been abducted by police to be used for the local practice of "bachabazi," or sex with pre-pubescent boys.

"If the boys were out in the fields, the police would come and rape them," he said. "You can go to any police base and you will see these boys. They hold them until they are finished with them and then let the child go."

The Interior Ministry in Kabul said it would contact police commanders in the area before responding in detail.http://paulflynnmp.typepad.com/my_weblog/2010/01/man-lover-thursdays.html


One facet of Afghan life was explained to me today. It comes from a serving soldier. On occasions army units cannot make it back to their barracks. They stay overnight in the compounds on the Afghan Army. They avoid Thursdays if they can. Regular readers will recall the complaint of the elders of the village of Pankela 'liberated' by our soldiers in the Panther's Claw offensive.

The elders said that if the Afghan Police returned they would join the Taliban. It was not just that the Afghan Police are endemically corrupt and live by stealing from the people they were are meant to serve. Their objection was to their use of bachabazi. This is the systematic imprisonment and rape of pre-pubescent boys. The elders showed the troops the compounds where the boys were imprisoned.It is one thing to realistically address these issues on a news program. It's quite another to stir up yet more hysteria about "dirty muslims" who use religion to justify child rape, which is exactly what TYT did in erroneously pinning the responsibility of Bacha Bazi on the Taliban. It is so easy to pin every negative thing on a demonized other, but the real problem is with Americans and their refusal to clean their own outhouse, starting with the Afghan army and police that TYT simply lets off the hook. Imperialism breeds monsters, but not all of those monsters are part of that mythic ENEMY.

I think TYT owe it to their listeners to issue a retraction for this travesty of journalism.

Thank you for your time,

A Reader

[Robocommie]

Good stuff.

[RadioRaheem84]

How do the liberal Turks not even know the difference between Mujahideen and the Taliban?

[khad]

How do the liberal Turks not even know the difference between Mujahideen and the Taliban?
They apparently need geography lessons too. That city of Takhar where Frontline did their investigation is in the north, where very few Taliban operate. The Northern Alliance pedophiles are entrenched on every level of governance there. It is revealed at the end of that report that the pedophile and pimp that Frontline interviewed were supposedly captured in a police sting, only to be released a month or so later.

[Andropov]

Jesus christ, its fucking disgusting.
Those degenerates should be lined up against a wall.
Reminds me of what the Clergy did here for decades with their depravity in the Industrial Schools.

[Robocommie]

Out of curiosity, Is it your intention to call attention to and criticize unnuanced condemnations of the Taliban, or rather to call attention to attitudes which can lead to general anti-Muslim hysteria?

[khad]

A look into the mind of one of these US-sponsored pedophiles, interviewed sitting by a lakeside where partially disrobed young boys are swimming.

Frontline: How did Bacha Bazi, which almost died out in Afghanistan, get reintroduced?

Dastager: I did Jihad, and became a commander. It was against the Russians, a terrible war. Bacha Bazi comes from Pakistan. When the Russians invaded, the mujahideen went over there. When they had nothing to do, they started Bacha Bazi.

Frontline: How long have you been doing Bacha Bazi?

Dastager: About 20 years.

Frontline: What do you say to the boys?

Dastager: What can I say? If there's money and power, then boys will be ready.


Out of curiosity, Is it your intention to call attention to and criticize unnuanced condemnations of the Taliban, or rather to call attention to attitudes which can lead to general anti-Muslim hysteria?
Both. Liberals always like to rationalize away Taliban support as feudal "Islamic" savagery, but they refuse to see the absolute depravity that the West supports through imperialism.

[Robocommie]

Both. Liberals always like to rationalize away Taliban support as feudal "Islamic" savagery, but they refuse to see the absolute depravity that the West supports through imperialism.

That's fair enough, and it's true that people seldom analyze the crimes they are complicit with in their support. That said, it IS hard to forget the imagery of Taliban gunmen shooting women in the head in soccer stadiums, and the extreme lengths they went banning all pictures of people or animals, banning soccer, music, etc.

PS: Answer yer private messages, damnit

[red cat]

That's fair enough, and it's true that people seldom analyze the crimes they are complicit with in their support. That said, it IS hard to forget the imagery of Taliban gunmen shooting women in the head in soccer stadiums, and the extreme lengths they went banning all pictures of people or animals, banning soccer, music, etc.

PS: Answer yer private messages, damnit

As far as I know, the present Taliban fighters come from the broad masses from their natural anti-imperialist tendency. Most of them have nothing to do with the old islamic fundamentalists. The Afghan masses will have little difficulty in choosing between their own men and armed foreigners who among many other crimes commit random rapes in a regular manner.

[khad]

That's fair enough, and it's true that people seldom analyze the crimes they are complicit with in their support. That said, it IS hard to forget the imagery of Taliban gunmen shooting women in the head in soccer stadiums, and the extreme lengths they went banning all pictures of people or animals, banning soccer, music, etc.
Well, it may surprise you, but the Taliban has run into trouble in many conservative areas, because Pashtun tribal customs often forbid women from claiming their inheritance rights that are supposedly guaranteed in Islam.

The imagery overpowers any rational debate. Afghanistan is a place that has not had a functioning state for almost two decades. So the Taliban may have done punishment killings. The Northern Alliance fought a civil war in the streets of Kabul that massacred, raped, and looted the population.

It would surprise Western liberals that "Islamism" is not an outlier when it comes to the Afghan political matrix, and it's by no means the most reactionary force out there.

It's not rocket science people, there are very real material reasons that groups like the Taliban continue to get support. And it doesn't have everything to do with "primitive" religious irrationalism.


As far as I know, the present Taliban fighters come from the broad masses from their natural anti-imperialist tendency. Most of them have nothing to do with the old islamic fundamentalists.
Actually, they are MORE Islamic than many of the "Islamic" mujahideen who were little more than mercenaries for Pakistan/China/US. There's no getting around that fact. The Taliban are a movement that intended to purge the corruption of the Mujahideen by going back to the holy book.

[Robocommie]

As far as I know, the present Taliban fighters come from the broad masses from their natural anti-imperialist tendency. Most of them have nothing to do with the old islamic fundamentalists. The Afghan masses will have little difficulty in choosing between their own men and armed foreigners who among many other crimes commit random rapes in a regular manner.

Is that so? That's quite interesting, actually.


The imagery overpowers any rational debate. Afghanistan is a place that has not had a functioning state for almost two decades. So the Taliban may have done punishment killings. The Northern Alliance fought a civil war in the streets of Kabul that massacred, raped, and looted the population.

It would surprise Western liberals that "Islamism" is not an outlier when it comes to the Afghan political matrix, and it's by no means the most reactionary force out there.

Well, similarly, I was quite dismayed when the US and Ethiopia intervened when the Islamic Courts were managing to come to power in Somalia because they seemed to represent the best chance at a stable government in Somalia for a long time now. But, assumedly because they were Islamist and thus not likely to play along with all the US games, they intervened and fucked it all up for the sake of the nominal government which only controls Mogadishu. I think there's something to be said about the Taliban representing the same potential for Afghanistan, which has seen far, far too much war.



It's not rocket science people, there are very real material reasons that groups like the Taliban continue to get support. And it doesn't have everything to do with "primitive" religious irrationalism.


Point in fact, I tend to be rather pro-religious irrationalism.

[RadioRaheem84]

Liberal moralizing is sometimes worse for the world than anything else. They love to paint themselves as the 'moral center' while children die due to their apparent apologizing of Western Imperialism and their Clients or the reluctance to get involved with democratic movements that are to the left of them (India, Nepal, Venezuela).

I oppose the Taliban with every fiber of my being but realize that waging war against them is a kin to genocide against the native Pashtun and to indirectly support the worst elements of war lord-ism and tribal factionalism. Yet, isn't it also true that the Taliban is split among total reactionaries and moderates? Not that that's saying much but shouldn't these things be addressed when comparing them to what the US reinstated?

Northern Alliance = Contras x 10.

Anyone have any info of the "National Hero" according to Hamd Karzai; Prince Massoud, Lion of Panjshir?

[khad]

Well, similarly, I was quite dismayed when the US and Ethiopia intervened when the Islamic Courts were managing to come to power in Somalia because they seemed to represent the best chance at a stable government in Somalia for a long time now. But, assumedly because they were Islamist and thus not likely to play along with all the US games, they intervened and fucked it all up for the sake of the nominal government which only controls Mogadishu. I think there's something to be said about the Taliban representing the same potential for Afghanistan, which has seen far, far too much war.
Personally, I don't think they represent a path out, but they do reflect the huge ways in which the Afghan government is a complete failure, run by pedophiles and drug lords who've completely alienated the population. They were the wrong people to back for all the wrong reasons. There are apparently former Parchamis, very decent men by all accounts, who are making strong showings in local elections, but it's obvious that Karzai and the US are continuing to conspire to rig votes and repress them.


Anyone have any info of the "National Hero" according to Hamd Karzai; Prince Massoud, Lion of Panjshir?
A mere Tajik factionalist. One look at his youtube videos, and you'll see the level of inter-ethnic hatred and flaming. Search "massoud shows his real face."

The previous election with Karzai and Abdullah is just another reflection of this ethnic factionalism. Karzai worked for the Pashtun Mujahideen, while Abdullah worked under Massoud. Their political platforms were more or less identical, but somehow the election became a life and death struggle for both of them.

Massoud's brother's made peace with some leftists in his united opposition bloc against Karzai, but I seriously doubt that party has any long-term potential due to its huge internal contradictions.

[Glenn Beck]

I guess the knowledge that the U.S.'s allies in the war Obama has adopted as his own make a pastime out of enslaving and fucking little boys would cause so much cognitive dissonance in the average liberal's mind that they simply tell themselves it's all the Taliban's fault to preserve their sanity.

[khad]

It is worthy to note that Cenk from TYT--in the very same fucking broadcast--bashed Morales for supposed homophobia. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8rjaRaVpBw)

Where're all the liberals bashing down the doors for Cenk to apologize for falsely accusing the enemies of America of deviant sexuality? Huh?

Update:
Let's see the liberals ignore me now
http://www.theyoungturks.com/story/2010/4/27/195212/425/Diary/Open-Letter-TYT-s-Bacha-Bazi-piece-a-travesty-of-journalism

[Robocommie]

Fucking hell, you see that asshole's response? Muslims turn into pedophiles because they don't fuck enough?

[RadioRaheem84]

Liberals these days are only a stone's throw away from being cons.

[GPDP]

Liberals these days are only a stone's throw away from being cons.

Well yeah, they kind of have to be. See the point made above about their attempt to avoid the massive cognitive dissonance that comes with being a liberal supporter of the imperialist Democratic party that turns its head when its allies commit atrocities.

[khad]

Fucking hell, you see that asshole's response? Muslims turn into pedophiles because they don't fuck enough?
Yeah, it's pretty clear that the liberals just want to stifle this message in an overflowing mass of hegemonic bullshit.

Baaa baaa taliban bad. Baaa baaa paedo pigs good.

I'm hoping some of you guys will take the opportunity to flame the flamers

http://www.theyoungturks.com/story/2010/4/27/195212/425/Diary/Open-Letter-TYT-s-Bacha-Bazi-piece-a-travesty-of-journalism

And leave some comments in their channel visitor space

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheYoungTurks

[Red Commissar]

The joys of article commenting on the internet. I looked at the thing you posted on their site and none of the comments are even relevant to your open letter. It seems to be coming from the same user too, the ever popular "islam is so evil" shit I'd expect to see on a site like worldnetdaily.

[Robocommie]

Heh, just yesterday a professor of mine was saying the internet was wonderful because of it's democratization of information and opinion, people who were totally silenced before can now have a voice. On the other hand, it also means that "stupid people" can post comments to news stories and say moronically racist or bigoted stuff, and that can now get aired as well.

[khad]

Apparently I pissed off a liberal for calling war supporters liberals. Talk about delusional head-in-sand.

Me: "Guess none of you liberals are capable of admitting that child rape is backed with American money. Dishonesty and racism--I should not have expected more."

EveningStarNM: "You're an idiot. Liberals are the ones who want to get out of Afghanistan. We'd love to stop the bacha bazi and we hate anything that exploits children. So-called conservatives, on the other hand, don't care so much if they can make money from it."

<some time passes, I get into an argument with another liberal>

Me: In fact, the mujahideen coup against Daoud was in part orchestrated by the West, since the pro-American King Zahir Shah had been ousted by the modernizing nationalist Daoud. Those mujahideen were groomed by the ISI and CIA to be the shock troops against the government of Afghanistan under Daoud and later the PDPA.

Without that lifeline, they would have been crushed quickly, and Afghanistan wouldn't have undergone the terrible civil war.

But here's why your call for responsibility is so odious and hypocritical. The United States turned a completely marginal group of rebel pederasts into the national government of an entire country through military assistance spanning decades. And when those pederasts took control of the country, riding on the backs of American troops, the USA simply looks the other way and then gives them more money to perpetrate their crimes.

An American liberal like you has no right telling anyone to "take responsibility."

EveningStarNM: "I assume that you want allies in ridding the world of this obscene practice, but you go out of your way to insult the people who already were on your side. You've criticized exactly the wrong people and missed those who should have been your target completely."

Me: "Allies? You mean the pedophile police?"

EveningStarNM: "Thanks. Now I'm convinced, and I know that I won't find anything interesting in anything that you write ever again."

[RadioRaheem84]

The link to the TYT site isn't working.

[khad]

Tactical shift.

Guys, I need to ask you a favor here. The liberals are definitely trying to ignore and bury this.

I need people to start emailing TYT directly (I've done so twice) to draw their attention to the discussion happening on their blog.

This is the link:
http://www.theyoungturks.com/story/2010/4/27/195212/425/Diary/Open-Letter-TYT-s-Bacha-Bazi-piece-a-travesty-of-journalism

And this is their address:
[email protected]

[Red Commissar]

What specifically do you want us to draw attention to?

[khad]

What specifically do you want us to draw attention to?
Just say that their reporting on Bacha Bazi missed the point of the frontline documentary altogether and left imperialism off the hook while justifying racism against Afghans and Muslims. The frontline documentary clearly shows that Bacha Bazi is a rampant problem with the Northern Alliance and its soldiers and police, not the Taliban.

And that you want a retraction.

The provide the link to the blog post on their site. It doesn't have to be a long letter.

P.S. Don't copy this word for word. There should be a little bit of variation.

[Red Commissar]

Alrighty, I'll whip up a short letter for what it's worth.

[Robocommie]

Sent them a letter. Hope it'll have an effect.

[Dimentio]

Heh, just yesterday a professor of mine was saying the internet was wonderful because of it's democratization of information and opinion, people who were totally silenced before can now have a voice. On the other hand, it also means that "stupid people" can post comments to news stories and say moronically racist or bigoted stuff, and that can now get aired as well.

Rather, racists and reactionaries have been shown to be very skilled to flood comment fields on articles to give the impression that they have vast popular support. At the same time, the level of cold indifference to human suffering generally espoused on the internet tend to drive away progressives.

[RadioRaheem84]

Rather, racists and reactionaries have been shown to be very skilled to flood comment fields on articles to give the impression that they have vast popular support. At the same time, the level of cold indifference to human suffering generally espoused on the internet tend to drive away progressives.


This is true. Every single political, social, or even satirical site that I visit including left wing sites and such, there is always one or two or even a multitude of right wing posters blathering off racist, elitist crap. I mean if anything the internet has emboldened people to be openly racist when out in the real world, they hide their views.

Yet the right wing is more numerous than we like to think. People hide their views a lot and when you push people's basic button they tend to be reactionary in the United States. Lately, I've found out that people I thought were pretty liberal expressing some right wing views. The blurring of liberal and libertarian is alarming these days. Even liberals are scaling back their attack on the State, defense of welfare and adopting that "get a job you bum" attitude.

[Dimentio]

This is true. Every single political, social, or even satirical site that I visit including left wing sites and such, there is always one or two or even a multitude of right wing posters blathering off racist, elitist crap. I mean if anything the internet has emboldened people to be openly racist when out in the real world, they hide their views.

Yet the right wing is more numerous than we like to think. People hide their views a lot and when you push people's basic button they tend to be reactionary in the United States. Lately, I've found out that people I thought were pretty liberal expressing some right wing views. The blurring of liberal and libertarian is alarming these days. Even liberals are scaling back their attack on the State, defense of welfare and adopting that "get a job you bum" attitude.

I don't think the correlation is entirely correct there, since Swedish websites do suffer from the same problems. Most general political discussion forums in Sweden, including the flagship of the Swedish internet - flashback.info - is dominated by reactionaries, libertarians and fascists. Now, the funny thing is, that the conservative party couldn't win the last election without basically copying the political programme of the social democrats (with the exception of a particularly nasty campaign against the unemployed and sick). The fascist party in Sweden has about 5% support, and the Libertarians are probably not more numerous than two thousand.

If we would judge from Flashback, most Swedes would be reactionaries with libertarian or fascist viewpoints. Yet, nearly every election has proven that Sweden is a left-leaning country.

Despite that the United States has a large right-wing minority, it is not the same as saying that a large right-wing presence on the internet is an indication of a right-wing wave, given that other countries with differing political landscapes in comparison with the USA seems to have similar memes spreading on the internet.

[Red Commissar]

The internet has a habit of amplyifiying the voice of anyone as it allows them to go beyond their limitations. That is why it's popular for many groups.

However the situation with the Young Turks site is not so much from this, it's part of a long tendency of left-wingers in the United States to try and find a common punching bag with right-wingers so that they don't seem to be radical or far-left.

[Guerrilla22]

It is clear that the "Young Turks" are trying to stir up anti-Muslims sentiment. Apaprently even self professed "progressives" aren't above doing this.

[Dimentio]

It is clear that the "Young Turks" are trying to stir up anti-Muslims sentiment. Apaprently even self professed "progressives" aren't above doing this.

I think it is because "the muslims" are about the only acceptable foreign enemy left (apart from Russians). Look for example at the LOTR films, where they replaced the Haradrim (who were black in the original books) with muslim-looking peoples fighting for Sauron.

[Dean]

It is one thing to realistically address these issues on a news program. It's quite another to stir up yet more hysteria about "dirty muslims" who use religion to justify child rape, which is exactly what TYT did in erroneously pinning the responsibility of Bacha Bazi on the Taliban. It is so easy to pin every negative thing on a demonized other, but the real problem is with Americans and their refusal to clean their own outhouse, starting with the Afghan army and police that TYT simply lets off the hook. Imperialism breeds monsters, but not all of those monsters are part of that mythic ENEMY.

I think TYT owe it to their listeners to issue a retraction for this travesty of journalism.

Thank you for your time,

A Reader

Excellent post but I think that TYT are an incredibly obtuse, petty-liberal group. Every video I've seen is incredibly ignorant of the issues, and just whines from that ignorant, hysterical edifice.

[khad]

Excellent post but I think that TYT are an incredibly obtuse, petty-liberal group. Every video I've seen is incredibly ignorant of the issues, and just whines from that ignorant, hysterical edifice.

Not just obtuse, because that implies mere neglect. On the contrary, it seems that they militate strongly against listening to anything that might put a dent into their liberal worldview.

http://www.theyoungturks.com/story/2010/4/27/195212/425/Diary/Open-Letter-TYT-s-Bacha-Bazi-piece-a-travesty-of-journalism#50

Opiman00: It's difficult to understand your motive or your agenda. What is it you want here? Other than call people names, of course. Is there any other reason? Just curious if you're really that simple.

Me: The motive is quite simple. TYT misrepresented Frontline and erroneously blame Bacha Bazi on Islam. "Holy warriors," in Cenk's words. I fail to see how this is a problem with jihadis when it is the Afghan police and sectors of the Afghan government (as shown in the documentary) that are perpetrating the bacha bazi trade. If anything, these are the most "secular" (by Afghan standards, in any case) institutions in the country.

Cenk misrepresented these facts and therefore created a distorted picture of what is going on. All he has done is to put the blame on "the ENEMY" without seeing how the occupation is complicit in these criminal acts.

What I want is a retraction from TYT for the excuses they made for racism against Afghans and Muslims.

The smug liberals here are all so self-assured in thinking how they're doing good, on the "right side" while the "ENEMY" is embodiment of all earthly evil. The ugly fact is that the war effort feeds the Afghan Army and Police, the main customers of the sex trade in young boys. From most of the responses here, it is apparent that you are more or less on board the Afghan War as the "good war," ie the war to "civilize the savages." It might knock you down a few pegs to realize the need to clean your own outhouse, starting with the Northern Alliance "allies" that are being touted as the vanguard of democracy.

And don't give me that line about how Afghans have been doing Bacha Bazi for centuries. The practice had been declining and was almost gone by the 1970s under the modernist regime of Daoud Khan. If it weren't for the fact that a bunch of Bacha Bazi practicing rebels were given enough guns and missiles by the West to take over Afghanistan, this problem might have just become lost to the book of time.

[Robocommie]

What's annoying as shit is the way they keep harping on about how supposedly abusive and unreasonable you are, when you're the only one making pointed references to history. They merely return with, "Well you're clearly crazy!"

Edit: Though this guy MedfordTim doesn't seem like such an asshole.

[RadioRaheem84]

You should make it known though that you're not a right winger though, Khad. In the States, if you're calling someone a liberal, then by default that person thinks you're a right winger. Make it known that you're a left winger that's sick of liberal moralizing and them thinking they're some sort of righteous, pragmatic moral center.

[Robocommie]

You should make it known though that you're not a right winger though, Khad. In the States, if you're calling someone a liberal, then by default that person thinks you're a right winger. Make it known that you're a left winger that's sick of liberal moralizing and them thinking they're some sort of righteous, pragmatic moral center.

That's very true, the American Manicheanism at play. You're either a liberal or a conservative, I don't know if it occurs to them that you're a socialist - though I doubt that'd win them over immediately if they're this stubborn.