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Saorsa
26th April 2010, 03:26
A comradely critique.

http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/4197


Nepal

The recent experiences in Nepal bear out the analysis of the CWI and our approach to guerrillaism, peasant war and the stages theory which are usually linked together by the supporters of guerrilla struggle and peasant warfare as the primary means of struggle.

For more than a decade a peasant war in the countryside was waged by the PLA and CPN –M and conquered over 75% of the countryside. A country where 92 different languages are spoken and the population made up of 59% Hindus, 31% indigenous Janajatis and 5.5% and 4.3% Newars and Muslims, Nepal was one of the poorest countries in the world where only 15% of the population lived in urban centres.

Yet even here the working class was to play a the decisive role as the CWI anticipated in contrast to some others on the left who dismissed the potential of the working class in such countries. In March 2006 the Pakistani section of the CWI, Democratic Socialist Movement Pakistan, published the Urdu edition of this book on Che Guevara. In an introduction to that edition we argued that in Nepal the working class, although small in number had grown and was destined to play a crucial role. The percentage of the workforce working in manufacturing had grown from 1.1% in 1971 to 8.8% in 2006. Those employed in industries other than manufacturing had grown from 0.1% to 4.5%. Add to this those employed in the public sector and the working class was larger, in percentage terms, than in pre-revolutionary Russia -albeit in much smaller work places.

I’ll make a brief point here. It’s good that the CWI noted the size of the workplaces, as while it is technically true (in percentage terms) that there are more proletarians in Nepal than there were in Russia, the nature of the Nepali proletariat is totally different. Russia had centres of modern medium and heavy industry. Nepal does not. There is no Putilov in Nepal, and it’s industrial economy is well behind what Russia had in 1917. The important thing about large factories like the Putilov works is the way they allow large numbers of workers to come together, talk and share ideas, organise collectively and take action at the point of production. Nepal doesn’t have this. As compared to Russia with it’s enormous metalworks, Kathmandu is scattered with small metal fabrication workshops that are little more advanced than your average mediaeval blacksmith. So while the Nepali proletariat is a greater percentage of Nepal’s population, it is far weaker organisationally than Russia’s was, and is operating in a country far more backward.


In April 2006 a massive general strike broke out. Many of the elements of a classical revolutionary situation existed. This movement eventually resulted in the Maoists emerging as the largest parliamentary force.

I’m aware that the CWI was writing the intro to a book, which requires brevity. But to sum up the second Janaandolan and the subsequent emergence of the Maoists as the most popular party in the country in these two sentences is just ahistorical and inaccurate. I’ll make a few points here;

1. The Janaandolan was much more than just a general strike. To describe it as that, the CWI implies that it was primarily a movement that emerged when workers in Kathmandu downed tools. This would fit in with the CWI analysis and would be very convenient, if only it were true... but it isn’t. The Janaandolan encompassed most of the country and much wider sectors of society than just Nepal’s small urban proletariat, although admittedly the focus was always on Kathmandu, the power centre. Strikes and bandhs played a crucial role in the Janaandolan as a tactic, but to describe it as a general strike and leave it at that is very misleading. This incredibly important historical event deserves more in depth analysis than that.

2. The second Janaandolan did not just ‘break out’. Again, this is extremely misleading language. The Janaandolan was a political movement called and brought into existence by the Maoists and the Seven Party Alliance (the alliance of the banned bourgeois democratic parties). The Maoists and the SPA announced a general strike and the trade unions affiliated to them, along with the other wings of the various parties involved, prepared the ground for it and enforced it. The masses responded with great enthusiasm, but to say a ‘massive general strike broke out’ implies that this was a spontaneous wave of workplace strikes. That is not the case.

3. While the focus of the Janaandolan was in Kathmandu, as previously mentioned it was not limited to there. And a very important point which many people fail to understand is that a very large percentage (it is impossible to know the exact numbers) of the protesters in the streets of Kathmandu were not residents of Kathmandu, but were from villages in the nearby valleys and surrounding countryside who had been bussed in by the Maoists. This was a massive operation – in many of the liberated areas, it has been reported that the Maoists requested one member of each household to travel to Kathmandu. So to imply that the People’s Movement in the cities emerged independently of the People’s War is simply ahistorical. The Maoists had Kathmandu blockaded. They lifted the blockade in order to flood the city with their supporters from around Nepal. The King was overthrown by the Maoists, not by a spontaneous proletarian movement that had nothing to do with them.

4. While it is true that many elements of a ‘classical revolutionary situation’ existed, many crucial elements did not. The 2006 movement was similar in many ways to the current situation in Thailand – society was radically polarised, the masses were fighting in the streets to defend democracy, but the working people (particularly those in the cities) had not yet come to the conclusion that outright revolution to smash the state was necessary. There is no way of getting around this. Many foreign leftists have assumed that the only reason the 2006 uprising didn’t lead to an outright revolution is because of Maoist treachery. In fact, it is more accurate to say that the 2006 uprising only had the success it did thanks to the organisational capacity and support base of the Maoists, and their alliance with the bourgeois parties against the monarchy. At a time when they were able to split the parties from the King and together eliminate the main obstacle to revolutionary change in Nepal, the monarchy, why would they have forced the bourgeois parties back into the monarchist fold? The Congress, the UML, the various other bourgeois parties still had support. They still had political bases, particularly in Kathmandu and other urban areas. The Maoists did not want to force their authority on the masses at the point of a gun, and did not feel they could conquer Kathmandu militarily without causing an absolute bloodbath and inviting foreign intervention. So they changed their tactics and have spent the past four years manoeuvring the bourgeois parties into isolation from the masses and working to split the army. The masses in the cities were too politically divided and had not yet come to the conclusion that it was necessary to smash the state, rather than to ‘preserve democracy’. This was the Maoist analysis of the situation, and their work for the past four years has been devoted to changing this and preparing the masses for a revolt.

5. It is simply not the case that the Janaandolan ‘eventually resulted in the Maoists emerging as the largest parliamentary force’. It implies that their success in the Constituent Assembly elections was due to events during and after 2006, and that they somehow overcame their previous lack of support to worm their way into power. In actual fact, the Maoists have used parliament as an arena of struggle for their entire existence, with success from the start. In the early 90s, the Maoists were organised in a party called the CPN (Unity Centre), the predecessor of the CPN (M). It had an above ground front called the United People’s Front. The UPF took part in elections and won in places like Rolpa and Rukum, underdeveloped and horrifically poor districts of the country. On the basis of this popular support, the Maoists initiated radical social programs in these areas, which were met with fierce resistance by the local elites. In the 1991 elections, the UPF became the third largest force in parliament despite the bloody repression of its cadres. In 1996, when the Maoists presented their 40 demands and launched the armed struggle, they had comrades in parliament. And of course, the Maoists earned their popular support through the People’s War. They transformed Nepal, and the poor peasants flocked to the cause in their thousands. It was this movement that led to the Maoist success in the elections. They were already the most popular party in the country before the Janaandolan, it just took the elections for the rest of the world to realise it.

The 2006 People’s Movement is often brought up as ‘proof’ that the People’s War was a wrong strategy that didn’t lead to the overthrow of the monarchy, and it is often implied that the Janaandolan emerged independently of the People’s War. This is simply not the case. The Janaandolan exploded precisely because of the advance of the PW and the crisis it created for the ruling class.

Gyanendra dissolved parliament because of the advances of the People’s War, which had by that stage liberated 80% of the rural areas. And there are many suspicious things about the palace massacre that led to Gyanendra coming to power in the first place, which lead a lot of Nepalis to doubt the official version of events (that the crown prince went on a drug fuelled rampage) and to suspect that Gyanendra had the royal family murdered to facilitate him taking the throne. There is some basis for this. Gyanendra and King Birendra represented different factions of the ruling class, which was divided over how to deal with the Maoists. Gyanendra called for the army (generally seen as ceremonial) to be unleashed on the rebels, while Birendra resisted this and insisted it was a police matter. History is full of plenty of examples of warring factions within the ruling class engaging in violent conspiracies against each other. The significance of this is that Gyanendra’s rise to power and his subsequent actions were entirely due to the success of the Maoist rebellion, whatever you believe about the palace massacre. The Janaandolan took place because of and in the context of the People’s War.


However, rather than basing themselves on this movement and taking it forward to its ultimate conclusion and the establishment of a workers’ and peasants’ government which would overthrow landlordism and capitalism they entered an interim government. They defended the Stalinist “stages” theory. Firstly, it argues it is necessary to establish a capitalist parliamentary democracy and develop the economy on a capitalist basis and only when this is achieved in the future move towards a socialist alternative.

They have already overthrown landlordism to a large degree, and are in practice overthrowing it more all the time. The land seizures never stopped. It should also be noted however that in most of Nepal, there are not many large landed estates with landless peasants working on them. The country is too poor and the land produces too little surplus to sustain a parasitic landlord class in much of the country. Instead, the contradictions are between loansharks and peasants, government agencies and peasants, and between different castes and ethnicities.

This paragraph claims that the Maoists seek to establish a capitalist parliamentary democracy and develop the economy only on a capitalist basis. This is not the case. The Maoists have been quite clear that what they are fighting for is a People’s Republic, not a bourgeois parliamentary republic, and that the contradiction between those two things is the primary contradiction in Nepal today. I can provide plenty of quotes to illustrate that point, but you’ve probably seen them all before so unless they are specifically requested I won’t bother for now. I don’t think this is a case of the CWI deliberately distorting the facts, rather that the CWI is seeing Nepal through eyes distorted by an outdated analysis. To argue that Prachanda’s approach in Nepal is just a rerun of Stalin’s line on Spain, or China, or whatever is not a historical materialist approach. The CWI divides the workers movement into Trotskyists and Stalinists (a division which is becoming increasingly nonexistent) and having applied the label Stalinist to the UCPN (M), the CWI is forced to analyse their tactical manoeuvrings with a preconceived faith that what they are doing is being done with the intention of institutionalising capitalist parliamentary democracy. The Maoists retain a parallel state structure – they still operate People’s Courts in the countryside, the YCL acts as a second and competing police force and they have over the past year done a lot of damage to Nepal’s parliamentary democracy! They prevented parliament from sitting for over half a year, they have unilaterally announced autonomous states for the oppressed nationalities... their practice has been the exact opposite of a party seeking to ‘establish a capitalist parliamentary democracy’.

And while I have no intention of starting a discussion about socialism in one country... I thought it was impossible? Which would surely make your talk of Nepal moving towards a socialist alternative somewhat unrealistic? The Maoists will do the best they can under the circumstances, but that will require a transitional form of society with both capitalist elements and socialist elements coexisting as Nepal struggles to advance further down the revolutionary road. If you have an alternative, suggest it. World revolution doesn’t seem to be on the cards at the moment.


Yet the experience of the Russian revolution demonstrated that the development of the economy, solution to the land question and the development of the society cannot in the modern epoch be achieved in countries like Nepal or the neo-colonial world by landlordism and capitalism. These tasks are linked together with the question of the socialist revolution and developing the revolution to other countries - in this case, countries like India, Pakistan and others in Asia. Through the establishment of a democratic socialist federation of these countries it would be possible to democratically plan and integrate the economies. On this basis it would be possible to develop the economies and societies and eliminate the grinding poverty and destitution which exists as a consequence of landlordism and capitalism and exploitation by the imperialist powers.

Well yeah, that would be wonderful. And the Maoists are very internationalist – they have done a number of things to support revolutions in their neighbouring countries, such as forming the Coordinating Committee of Maoist Parties of South Asia, and proposing that as revolution spreads their various countries could amalgamate into a regional federation. The Maoist leaders recognise the seriousness of this problem, with senior leader Bhattarai having this to say recently:

This question of socialism in one country is a theoretical question to be debated. This is the era of imperialism and proletarian revolution. Imperialism always consists of uneven and unequal development, so revolution within a country is not only a possibility, it is a must, because revolution won’t break out all over the world at the same time. That’s impossible as long as imperialism remains and uneven development is there. This is a basic tenet of Leninism which still holds true and we should grasp it.

But in the specific case of a small country like Nepal, sandwiched between the big countries of India and China and being dictated over by US imperialism all over the world, if you don’t have support, international support, or there is no strong revolutionary movement, it will be very difficult to sustain the revolution. It may be possible to carry out the revolution to capture state power, but to sustain the state power and develop in the direction of socialism and communism we will need support from the international proletarian movement. That way the level of international support and international proletarian solidarity is important. After the growing influence of so-called globalisation, imperialist globalisation, the reaches of the imperialist power have gone to every corner of the world. If there is no strong international proletarian organisation to fight against imperialist intervention and domination, it will be difficult to sustain the revolution in one small country.

Keeping this in mind, we must however make revolution in our country, this is a must. But to sustain it and develop it further we need the backing of the international proletarian forces. For that we have to give more importance to internet work and the international community. This need is more important in the case of small countries like Nepal. In fact, in recent months we have been discussing this issue. To complete the revolution in Nepal and sustain it and develop it further, at least in the South Asian context, we need to have strong revolutionary solidarity and we need the backing from the international proletarian movement. We feel the events of the international proletarian movement worldwide and some of the institutions that are being developed are all important, like the Revolutionary Internationalist Movement (RIM), the Coordination Committee of Maoist Parties in South Asia (CCOMPOSA) and the World People’s Resistance Movement (WPRM). These type of organisations are very important for the success of the revolution and to gather support at the international level for the success of our revolution.

But while what the CWI is saying here is true and the revolution does need to spread, this will not be achieved through willpower and wishful thinking. The revolution will spread abroad when the objective conditions are suitable for it to do so. A revolution in Nepal will not magically trigger one in India, however much we may want it to. The Trotskyist notion that revolution will spread like wildfire unless it is betrayed by evil Stalinoid leaders is without basis in reality.


The failure of the “stages theory” is now being tragically demonstrated by events in Nepal. As a consequence of this policy Nepal remains in crisis and is currently stuck in a cul-de-sac. The Maoist Prime Minister, Pushpa Kamal Dahal, better known as Prachanda, and the United Communist Party of Nepal –Maoist, UCP-M, have, resigned from the government, leaving a right-wing 20 plus party coalition in power. Any party of the left which joins a capitalist coalition will eventually have to choose between attacking the workers and the poor or being removed. The resignations followed the refusal of the President Ram Yadav, to dismiss the Nepalese army chief, General Rookmangud Katawal who had refused to incorporate the guerrilla forces into the standing army and who remains one of the former Royalist elite.

I take it that the CWI believe the resignation of the Maoists from government, which refused to attack the workers, the poor and the nation, proves that they are very much a ‘party of the left’? Either way, I’ve explained the Maoist entry into government here. It is not in any way proof of the failure of some mythical ‘stages theory’ – rather, it was a tactical move on the part of the UCPN (M) to dispel illusions in the parliamentary system and prepare the ground for the struggles to come.


Following their entry into the “interim government” the Maoists saw some erosion of their support as the revolution failed to advance.

This is not accurate, and there is no evidence to suggest this whatsoever. All the evidence points towards the Maoists having significantly increased their support in the urban areas in recent years, and while it is difficult to ascertain their exact levels of support in the countryside, there is no evidence to indicate they’ve shrunk. The Maoists recently organised massive demonstrations in every single district of the country. They are currently shutting down every single private high school in Nepal. At the last by elections, they started with two out of six seats and ended with three. Workers are switching from UML unions to Maoist unions in the few places where Maoists unions aren’t completely dominant. This is an assertion without any basis in fact.


They are now having to send some of their cadres back to the countryside to try and rebuild their support and are threatening to launch a further rural struggle having lost the opportunity to complete the revolution which broke out in 2006.

These cadre aren’t going back to rebuild lost support, they’re going into the countryside to prepare for the ‘final battle’ and the ‘decisive struggle’ to come. They’re conducting military training, organising donation drives and preparing the party cadres for a massive movement in the streets. They haven’t lost the opportunity to complete the Nepali revolution, and there was never a revolution which ‘broke out’ in 2006. There was a series of massive demonstrations that led to the King resigning from power, but these demonstrations emerged out of the struggles that preceded them, not out of thin air.


In the rural areas some of their forces are now being subject to attack in areas like Tarai through the emergence of armed groups like the Tarai Liberation Front.

True. However they have taken steps to deal with that, forming armed self-defence committees in the Terai and training their cadre in military methods across the country.


This is partly in response to some of the methods used by the Maoists during the civil war and also their wrong approach towards dealing with some of the national groups like the Tarai peoples.

In response to the Maoist’s methods? What does that even mean? The armed struggle has finished, and I very much doubt that many of the mercenaries attacking their cadre are acting in revenge for what they suffered during the People’s War. And even if they are, that would make them a landlord or a reactionary, in which case I find it hard to argue against whatever brutality they received at the hand of the masses. Most peasants aren’t aware of the Geneva Convention. But that aside, this is a strange thing to say and requires some proof to back it up.

As for the second claim, it would be nice to see some elaboration on what this ‘wrong approach’ was and why it was wrong. Groups like the Terai Liberation Front and the various other armed gangs in the Terai at the moment are not authentic liberation armies. They are death squads of the landed elite, set up either by India or the Nepal Army, and they target the Maoists because of the UCPN (M)’s commitment to class struggle between the peasants and the landlords. The Terai is the most agriculturally productive area of Nepal and is one of the few areas with real peasant/landlord contradictions.

The main criticism these groups have of the Maoist approach to the national people’s of the Terai (Madhes, Limbuwan, Kochila, Tharuwan etc) is that they give too much self-determination to the groups of the Terai. These Terai gangster organisations that are currently attacking the Maoist cadre tend to be of Madhesi origin. Madhesis are the largest nationality in the Terai, but by no means the only one. Some Madhesis support the concept of ‘One Madhesh, One Pradesh” which translates as a demand for a single Madhesh state encompassing the entire Terai. They accuse the Maoists, who have supported the rights of the other previously mentioned groups to self-determination and declared them autonomous states, of seeking to divide the Terai and attack Madhesis. This is essentially a conflict between Maoism and it’s commitment to self determination for all people’s, and Madhesi chauvinism. So to assume from the fact that some ethnic sounding groups are attacking the Maoists that the Maoists have taken a ‘wrong’ approach to the Terai is, to put it bluntly, bad journalism.


The erosion of their support escalated following their entry into the “interim government”. The “stages theory” and methods used by the Maoists forces have taken the Nepalese struggle into a dead end. The on going social and political crisis however will certainly mean new social explosions can erupt again.

As I’ve pointed out, there is no evidence to indicate an erosion of support. After all, the CA elections took place well after the Maoists entered into the interim government, and they did pretty well in them! Time will tell whether their strategy is a dead end.


Trotskyism and New Discussions

The crisis, in Nepal, and dead end of the “stages theory” and Maoist ideas have begun to open discussion about the lessons of the struggle. Significantly, reflecting its growing relevance, the question of Trotskyism has been raised in this discussion. A leading Maoist, Baburham Bhattarai, a member of the politburo of the UCPN (M), and former Minister of Finance, has invoked the question of Trotskyism. Writing in July 2009 in the UCPN (M) journal ‘The Red Spark’ he commented: “In this context, Marxist revolutionaries, should recognize that in fact in the current context, Trotskyism, has become more relevant than Stalinism to advance the cause of the proletariat”.

We shouldn’t read too much into this. For one thing, I don’t believe there is a journal called the Red Spark. There’s the Red Star, but no spark. This should indicate some of the translation issues here. Bhattarai almost certainly didn’t say that in Nepali. But even if he did, this doesn’t indicate that the UCPN (M) is preparing to adopt Trotskyism or anything like that. What it indicates is that Bhattarai is a very well read guy who’s engaged with a wide variety of ideas. He’s quote Rosa Luxembourg a number of times before – does this indicate that Bhattarai is a council communist? This single quote is not very significant at all.


Bhattarai has not drawn the correct conclusions or understood the essence of Trotsky’s ideas. He has distorted them and used them to justify a more right-wing social democratic position. However, it is extremely significant that a Maoist leader should invoke Trotskyism. Genuine Trotskyism stresses the need to break decisively with capitalism as well as feudalism-monarchism, even in a poor, neo-colonial society like Nepal. Only by taking such measures would it be possible to develop Nepal economically and socially and break the constraints imposed on it by imperialism, capitalism and land-lordism.But to defend and implement a revolutionary socialist agenda, of nationalisations under workers’ control, radical land reform, full equality and self-determination for the national minorities, a workers’ and poor peasants’ government in Nepal would have to appeal to the exploited masses and especially the proletariat of India, China and the entire world, and to spread the revolution globally. This is a completely different conception of the tasks facing the movement in Nepal compared to Bhattarai, who seeks to lower his followers’ expectations and confine the struggle to ’bourgeois democracy’.

Bhattarai does not seek to confine the struggle to that at all, and it is extremely misleading to put ‘bourgeois democracy’ in quotes as if you’re quoting from somewhere that he does advocate that.

Bhattarai recently summed up his views on how democracy should be practiced after the revolution:

The practice of democracy in imperialist counties is a form of bourgeois democracy, a ritual that deceives the masses of people and perpetuates the rule of their class state. But what we are talking about is not organising elections within the bourgeois state, we are talking about after the revolution in a New Democratic or socialistic framework, where there will be certain constitutional provisions whereby the reactionaries, imperialists and criminal forces will not be allowed to participate. Only the progressive forces, the democratic forces and people will be allowed to compete. That is the competition within the New Democratic or socialist framework we are talking about. This is a basic difference. After the revolution, the first thing we will do will be redistribution of property. There will no longer be rich and poor, a big gap between the haves and the have-nots. That way when we organise competition there will be an equal chance for people to compete. But in the given framework of the imperialist and bourgeois democratic system there is a huge gap between the propertied and property-less working class. The competition is so uneven that the property-less working class can never compete with the propertied, the bourgeois and imperialist class. That way, only after carrying out this redistribution of property in a socialistic and New Democratic manner can you organise political competition where there will be a fair chance of everyone to compete on an equal footing. Our idea of competition in a New Democratic and socialist framework is therefore fundamentally different from the formal competition and practice in a bourgeois democratic and imperialist state. The difference in the class nature of the state should be appreciated.

Crux
26th April 2010, 03:57
I'll try and get into writing a response tomorrow.

Saorsa
26th April 2010, 05:22
Look forward to it :-)

Devrim
26th April 2010, 05:36
I don't want to get into a long discussion about Nepal, which I know very little about, but I would like to raise two points:


I’ll make a brief point here. It’s good that the CWI noted the size of the workplaces, as while it is technically true (in percentage terms) that there are more proletarians in Nepal than there were in Russia, the nature of the Nepali proletariat is totally different. Russia had centres of modern medium and heavy industry. Nepal does not. There is no Putilov in Nepal, and it’s industrial economy is well behind what Russia had in 1917. The important thing about large factories like the Putilov works is the way they allow large numbers of workers to come together, talk and share ideas, organise collectively and take action at the point of production. Nepal doesn’t have this. As compared to Russia with it’s enormous metalworks, Kathmandu is scattered with small metal fabrication workshops that are little more advanced than your average mediaeval blacksmith. So while the Nepali proletariat is a greater percentage of Nepal’s population, it is far weaker organisationally than Russia’s was, and is operating in a country far more backward.

While there is a point to what you say about the size of workplaces, I don't think that you comparison helps your argument when you compare it to medieval blacksmith's. I would imagine that most medieval blacksmith's were run by an artisan with an apprentice, possibly his son. I would imagine that many small workshops in Nepal are bigger than that, say a boss and up to ten workers. On a technological level, I don't imagine many mediaeval blacksmith's had electricity or arc-welding, but I would imagine that most small workshops in Kathmandu do. Of course some of the factories will be bigger, I would imagine in the textiles sector.

While it is important not to exaggerate the level of development, it is equally important not to underestimate it.


Keeping this in mind, we must however make revolution in our country, this is a must. But to sustain it and develop it further we need the backing of the international proletarian forces. For that we have to give more importance to internet work and the international community. This need is more important in the case of small countries like Nepal. In fact, in recent months we have been discussing this issue. To complete the revolution in Nepal and sustain it and develop it further, at least in the South Asian context, we need to have strong revolutionary solidarity and we need the backing from the international proletarian movement. We feel the events of the international proletarian movement worldwide and some of the institutions that are being developed are all important, like the Revolutionary Internationalist Movement (RIM), the Coordination Committee of Maoist Parties in South Asia (CCOMPOSA) and the World People’s Resistance Movement (WPRM). These type of organisations are very important for the success of the revolution and to gather support at the international level for the success of our revolution.

Whatever we think about the class nature of Maoism, it is clear that the Nepalese Maoists are serious people, and as such recognise the importance that the internet has in today's world. Of course communist organisations have to make use of the internet. Maybe with this we will see an end to comments like 'keyboard revolutionary', but I doubt it.



Yet the experience of the Russian revolution demonstrated that the development of the economy, solution to the land question and the development of the society cannot in the modern epoch be achieved in countries like Nepal or the neo-colonial world by landlordism and capitalism. These tasks are linked together with the question of the socialist revolution and developing the revolution to other countries - in this case, countries like India, Pakistan and others in Asia. Through the establishment of a democratic socialist federation of these countries it would be possible to democratically plan and integrate the economies. On this basis it would be possible to develop the economies and societies and eliminate the grinding poverty and destitution which exists as a consequence of landlordism and capitalism and exploitation by the imperialist powers. But while what the CWI is saying here is true and the revolution does need to spread, this will not be achieved through willpower and wishful thinking.

Alistair is right here. The CWI, which I think can be typified not unreasonably as a pragmatic left Social Democratic party, does have these flights of fancy, and tend to come out with little bizarrities like this:


in this case, countries like India, Pakistan and others in Asia. Through the establishment of a democratic socialist federation of these countries it would be possible to democratically plan and integrate the economies.They do a similar thing in the Middle East. Of course it is just a really empty slogan.

Devrim

Edith Lemsipberg
26th April 2010, 12:20
Just a quick one on the size of workplaces. France in the 19th century was dominated by small workplaces, only in parts of France was there the development of larger scale workplaces (the northwest in particular). Yet it was from amongst the workers of these small workplaces that some of the most militant actions developed. It simply a different way that the working class culture developed - and I think retains an influence today in the way that radical/socialist political movements are less connected to trade unions than is the case historically in Britain and Germany.

vyborg
26th April 2010, 12:57
I think some critics makes sense other a lot less.
Anyway I would like to agree on one major political point. After the collapse of the USSR and the demise of China as example for the toiled masses on a world scale, any stalinist/maoist leadership has been compelled to think on its own. Where this leadership were less corrupt and more active, where the pressures from below were stronger, this meant that they started to move to the left even without analysing the new situation theoretically.

This means that, in a sense, the difference between marxists and stalinists can be reduced in the practice, because nowadays stalinism is not a ready made handbook to derail revolutions but has disintegrated in hundreds of different practices.

So the marxists have the duty to criticize fraternally workers party leaders without using a pre-determined label ("maoist") that risks to preclude any discussion.
Friendly in the method but inflexible in the principles.

Andropov
29th April 2010, 18:54
I'll try and get into writing a response tomorrow.
Still waiting on a CWI response to this??

Saorsa
30th April 2010, 05:09
^ This. Anyone from the CWI prepared to defend their article?

The Vegan Marxist
30th April 2010, 05:21
^ This. Anyone from the CWI prepared to defend their article?

I guess he lost track of time :rolleyes:

Saorsa
30th April 2010, 05:36
I'm not attacking Mayakovsky personally, real life takes precedence over internet debates. But there's at least half a dozen CWI supporters who regularly post on this site, and I've pointed out the factual errors and flaws in analysis in their article. They should be prepared to defend it.

The Vegan Marxist
30th April 2010, 05:39
Oh I'm not attacking Mayakovsky personally, real life takes precedence over internet debates. But there's at least half a dozen CWI supporters who regularly post on this site, and I've pointed out the factual errors and flaws in analysis in their article. They should be prepared to defend it.

Oh I'm aware of this. But that's one of the main reasons why I never joined the CWI because of their lack of bringing forth valid arguments to back up the claims they present.

Q
30th April 2010, 07:39
I'm not attacking Mayakovsky personally, real life takes precedence over internet debates. But there's at least half a dozen CWI supporters who regularly post on this site, and I've pointed out the factual errors and flaws in analysis in their article. They should be prepared to defend it.

I consider myself too uninformed to make a valuable contribution to this discussion, so I'll eagerly await more informed CWI comrades to step forward and as Mayakovsky already offered to write a response, I'll not interfere with that.

Tower of Bebel
30th April 2010, 09:12
This paragraph claims that the Maoists seek to establish a capitalist parliamentary democracy and develop the economy only on a capitalist basis. This is not the case. The Maoists have been quite clear that what they are fighting for is a People’s Republic, not a bourgeois parliamentary republic, and that the contradiction between those two things is the primary contradiction in Nepal today. I can provide plenty of quotes to illustrate that point
Notwithstanding your quotations archive, why did they join an interim government?

Palingenisis
30th April 2010, 09:50
This means that, in a sense, the difference between marxists and stalinists can be reduced in the practice, because nowadays stalinism is not a ready made handbook to derail revolutions but has disintegrated in hundreds of different practices.

So the marxists have the duty to criticize fraternally workers party leaders without using a pre-determined label ("maoist") that risks to preclude any discussion.
Friendly in the method but inflexible in the principles.

Considering that the "Stalinists" have shown themselves all over the world more than happy so to speak to confront capitalism and imperialism head on while as oh revolutionary Trotskyism is much more at home in the first world official "Labour" movement and conistently served as the "Left" (actually I think you will find outside of the popular front period and even than only to a certain degree Trots have been to the "Right" of the revolutionary Communist movement) critic of the revolution you have some cheek in writing that.

There is a class line between us and nothing "fraternal" linking us together. Its pretty obvious from your slandering of the IRSP and Comrade Alliaster's reply to the waffle you wrote about Nepal (the Trotskyite school of falsification at its best or should I say worst) the CWI is an agent of capitalism and imperialism.

Palingenisis
30th April 2010, 10:13
Notwithstanding your quotations archive, why did they join an interim government?

The great leader of the Irish working class who was murdered by cyrpto-Trotskyite revisionists probably in co-operation with the capitalist state explains why Leninists participate in bourgious parliments from 0:24 to 0:50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyytiL75ELo&feature=player_embedded

It should be pointed that the CWI was part of the British Labour Party when it was in goverment and overseeing the extensive use of torture in Ireland. No such allegation can be made against the Maoists in Nepal.

Jolly Red Giant
30th April 2010, 10:14
Like Q - I would not regard myself as having sufficient knowledge to answer the detailed opening post (and unfortunately other work prevents me researching it sufficiently)



There is a class line between us and nothing "fraternal" linking us together. Its pretty obvious from your slandering of the IRSP and Comrade Alliaster's reply to the waffle you wrote about Nepal (the Trotskyite school of falsification at its best or should I say worst) the CWI is an agent of capitalism and imperialism.
The fact that you do not understand the difference between a mass largely peasant based movement in a semi-feudal poverty sticken third world country - and - a small band of nutcases (who spent a large amount of time shooting one another) operating a sporadic campaign of individual terror in a highly urbanised wealthy statelet - clearly demonstrates that your understanding of Marxism ranks up there with that of Thomas the Tank Engine.

You politics can be summed up as follows -
He/she has a gun - he/she shoots people I don't like - he/she is a revolutionary.

Palingenisis
30th April 2010, 10:20
The fact that you do not understand the difference between a mass largely peasant based movement in a semi-feudal poverty sticken third world country - and - a small band of nutcases (who spent a large amount of time shooting one another) operating a sporadic campaign of individual terror in a highly urbanised wealthy statelet - clearly demonstrates that your understanding of Marxism ranks up there with that of Thomas the Tank Engine.

You politics can be summed up as follows -
He/she has a gun - he/she shoots people I don't like - he/she is a revolutionary.

Where did I say that there were not huge differences between Ireland and Nepal or even that there were not big enough differences between the Maoists in Nepal and the IRSM? No where...However both come from the people and both have given their life's blood for the people. And comparing the INLA which was part of broad based national liberation movement as "individual terrorists" who were basically the same as late 19 th century anarchists is just nuts.

Jolly Red Giant
30th April 2010, 10:21
The great leader of the Irish working class who was murdered by cyrpto-Trotskyite revisionists probably in co-operation with the capitalist state explains why Leninists participate in bourgious parliments from 0:24 to 0:50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyytiL75ELo&feature=player_embedded


I was going to ask what are you smoking - but its pretty obvious.

One small point of correction. The video states that Costello called the party after Connolly's party - not correct.

Connolly formed the Irish Socialist Republican Party

Costello named his the Irish Republican Socialist Party

subtle but important difference - not that you would remotely understand why.

Palingenisis
30th April 2010, 10:21
highly urbanised wealthy statelet - .

Highly urbanized yes, but the six counties cant really be considered wealthly and is certainly poor by European standards.

vyborg
30th April 2010, 10:33
(actually I think you will find outside of the popular front period and even than only to a certain degree Trots have been to the "Right" of the revolutionary Communist movement) critic of the revolution you have some cheek in writing that.

I dont pretend to lecture on the whole world. But I can speak for Italy, where the stalinist huge CP derailed at least 2 if not 3 revolution and where 90% of its leadership ended in a liberal bourgeois party. Popular frontism in Italy started in the 20s and never ended. The stalinist tendencies inside Rifondazione are the most right-wing and moderate you can find.


Its pretty obvious from your slandering of the IRSP and Comrade Alliaster's reply to the waffle you wrote about Nepal (the Trotskyite school of falsification at its best or should I say worst) the CWI is an agent of capitalism and imperialism.

I understand that you read rapidly in here, in order to come back to the barricades, but please read carefully our posts. I'm not a member of the CWI, neither I never spoke about the IRSP. The CWI comrades criticized my organization (the IMT) exactly because we discuss with some comrades from the IRSP.

Jolly Red Giant
30th April 2010, 10:34
Highly urbanized yes, but the six counties cant really be considered wealthly and is certainly poor by European standards.
Please allow me to educate you a little

wealthy = Northern Ireland
poverty stricken = Nepal

vyborg
30th April 2010, 10:40
It should be pointed that the CWI was part of the British Labour Party when it was in goverment and overseeing the extensive use of torture in Ireland. No such allegation can be made against the Maoists in Nepal.

It is correct, the Nepali maoists never tortured Irish prisoners.

On the contrary, the leaders of the Militant before 79 (after it the BLP was not in power until the Militant split from the BLP itself) were personally responsible for the torture of irish prisoners as anyone knows in UK.

There is a pic with Ted Grant and Peter Taaffee hitting a Irish prisoner with a golf club. You can find it somewhere in e-bay

Palingenisis
30th April 2010, 10:54
I dont pretend to lecture on the whole world. But I can speak for Italy, where the stalinist huge CP derailed at least 2 if not 3 revolution and where 90% of its leadership ended in a liberal bourgeois party. Popular frontism in Italy started in the 20s and never ended. The stalinist tendencies inside Rifondazione are the most right-wing and moderate you can find.
.


The Italian CP stopped being "Stalinist" in the 1950s though their were revisionist trends before that.

vyborg
30th April 2010, 10:57
The Italian CP stopped being "Stalinist" in the 1950s though their were revisionist trends before that.

The Italian CP, as any western CP, was always half stalinist half reformist. But this is exactly the point: 99% of western stalinist became reformist if not open reactionary. This is where the popular front landed them.

Palingenisis
30th April 2010, 11:00
The Italian CP, as any western CP, was always half stalinist half reformist. But this is exactly the point: 99% of western stalinist became reformist if not open reactionary. This is where the popular front landed them.

The Stalinists of Brigada Rossa took on the Italian state...Examples of Trots doing the same?

Gauche Proletarainne was banned in France....Examples of the French State banning Trot organizations?

Jolly Red Giant
30th April 2010, 11:05
The Stalinists of Brigada Rossa took on the Italian state...Examples of Trots doing the same?

Gauche Proletarainne was banned in France....Examples of the French State banning Trot organizations?
Just out of interest - have you ever even held a gun?

You cheerleading for every leftie willing to pull a trigger smacks awfully of internet warrior-ing.

vyborg
30th April 2010, 11:14
The Stalinists of Brigada Rossa took on the Italian state...Examples of Trots doing the same?

The Red Brigade was a perfect excuse to attack all the movement...they didnt take on anything, they were simply pistoleros that had the illusion to kill someone to change something. As always individual terrorism took the movement to a disaster with the complicity of reformist and stalinist leaders.

Tower of Bebel
30th April 2010, 13:12
The great leader of the Irish working class who was murdered by cyrpto-Trotskyite revisionists probably in co-operation with the capitalist state explains why Leninists participate in bourgious parliments from 0:24 to 0:50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyytiL75ELo&feature=player_embedded

It should be pointed that the CWI was part of the British Labour Party when it was in goverment and overseeing the extensive use of torture in Ireland. No such allegation can be made against the Maoists in Nepal.
You troll.

PARLIAMENT =/= GOVERNMENT
LABOUR MP =/= LABOUR MINISTER

And I made my point earlier about The Militant in recent threads: I'm not fond of bourgeois phraseology (see the Gotha critique).

Palingenisis
30th April 2010, 13:21
You troll.

PARLIAMENT =/= GOVERNMENT
LABOUR MP =/= LABOUR MINISTER

And I made my point earlier about The Militant in recent threads: I'm not fond of bourgeois phraseology (see the Gotha critique).

I notice that hurling personal abuse ("nutter", "troll", etc) seems to be part and parcel of being or supporting the CWI.

The CWI were members of a party and campaigned to help that party get elected into goverment. I never said they were actual ministers.

Tower of Bebel
30th April 2010, 13:57
This has nothing to do with the CWI, Palingenisis. I'm not the hardline guardian of the CWI. This is my first "abuse" in months. Maybe Red Cat is the exception, but at the time his Hegelian unity of the Will (i.e. one one goal, one ideology, one truth) was as anyoing as his debating skill. Anyway, my repsonse had something to do with your post. I asked why the Nepalese communists joined a government and you come in writing about revisionism, parliaments and the Labour Party?! Hardly a positive answer and most certainly not the most advanced negative answer I've ever heard.

Palingenisis
30th April 2010, 14:14
I asked why the Nepalese communists joined a government and you come in writing about revisionism, parliaments and the Labour Party?! Hardly a positive answer and most certainly not the most advanced negative answer I've ever heard.

And I posted a youtube video with the explanation of why Leninists sometimes do these things...To expose before the masses the real nature of capitalist parliments and bring them tumbling to the ground. You are a member of a counter-revolutionary organization and I thought it was important that that should be pointed out, your question was no more innocent than your organization convinently getting so much wrong about the situation in Nepal.

red cat
30th April 2010, 14:15
Will someone please remind me in which reactionary measure of the government the UCPN(M) has actually taken part in and who organized the land-snatching movement of poor Nepali peasants last December ?

MarkP
30th April 2010, 15:16
The Stalinists of Brigada Rossa took on the Italian state...Examples of Trots doing the same?

Saor Eire are a good example of alleged "Trotskyists" taking part in the same kind of futile adventurist stupidity as the Red Brigades. It's not something to be proud of.


Gauche Proletarainne was banned in France....Examples of the French State banning Trot organizations?

Dozens perhaps hundres of Trotskyist organisations have been banned by the state. The French state banned the LCR at one point and I believe also the predecessor of Lutte Ouvrier.

I repeat: You are a delusional mentalist.

MarkP
30th April 2010, 15:17
And comparing the INLA which was part of broad based national liberation movement as "individual terrorists" who were basically the same as late 19 th century anarchists is just nuts.

Well, yes. The 19th Century Anarchists were better at it.

Tower of Bebel
30th April 2010, 16:05
And I posted a youtube video with the explanation of why Leninists sometimes do these things...To expose before the masses the real nature of capitalist parliments and bring them tumbling to the ground. You are a member of a counter-revolutionary organization and I thought it was important that that should be pointed out, your question was no more innocent than your organization convinently getting so much wrong about the situation in Nepal.
Again, PARLIAMENT =/= GOVERNMENT. I don't know anything about the coalition government, but in most cases, unlike parliament, a government means compromise over policy (unless the government agrees with the communist programme). If you want to expose bourgeois parties you should not expose yourself. In parliament you don't need to compromise because you can defend you own programme. A government is a different case, except, I write it again, when other coalition parties agree with your programme. But the latter would be strange if their are bourgeois or landlord parties involved.


So, again, why did they join a coalition government? what kind of policy did this government as a whole agree with? I'm not talking about exposure. I want to know how it was possible for communists to join a government. Or wasn't their any agreement - no compromise - at all (which would be strange to hear), and was the party able to do all it wanted to do?

bricolage
30th April 2010, 16:07
There is a pic with Ted Grant and Peter Taaffee hitting a Irish prisoner with a golf club. You can find it somewhere in e-bay

Is this true?

vyborg
30th April 2010, 16:31
Is this true?

Of course! And there is also a pic where Alan Woods nails a poor rish prisoner to a wall while the NEC of th Militant laughs and cheers

Crux
30th April 2010, 16:45
Okey, Palingesis, Shut The Fuck Up. You get boring pretty quick and your relelvance, to this thread and in general, is less than nil.

As I said I will get into writing a response to the OP. Have been a bit busy lately though getting attacked by fascists and whatnot, but I'll get to it ASAP, maybe even tonight.

bricolage
30th April 2010, 20:31
Of course! And there is also a pic where Alan Woods nails a poor rish prisoner to a wall while the NEC of th Militant laughs and cheers

Jesus.

vyborg
30th April 2010, 20:36
Jesus.

Those damned trotskysts....and they are allied of the UK imperialism since the time of Henry the VIII....I heard it in a bar during a brawl among stalinists

Q
30th April 2010, 20:49
vyborg: Stop posting useless "sarcasm" posts.
Palingenisis: Shut the fuck up, fucking troll.
Rest: This is about the post in the OP, let's concentrate on that.

Sorry, this had to steam off.

chegitz guevara
30th April 2010, 23:00
Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel?

The Grey Blur
30th April 2010, 23:50
vyborg: Stop posting useless "sarcasm" posts.
No way, those posts are hilarious. The best thing is the other poster is taking them seriously.

BrazilianTrotskyist
1st May 2010, 02:27
Just me and Alastair are the only ones interested in the position of the CWI about the Nepalese Revolution? (And please, support the Nepalese revolution is not the same as supporting the Maoists. And that's a good point!)

Crux
1st May 2010, 04:41
Yes. We need to support the invisible Trotskyists of Nepal.:rolleyes: Sorry, but I'm tired of such delusional posters who imagine there is some kind of Trotskyist presence in Nepal or other countries where the real struggles are being fought and won by the masses. There seems to be a real mental problem with certain people who seem to be out of touch with reality.
And your trolling should have gotten you banned ages ago.

Crux
1st May 2010, 04:54
How is pointing out your delusions "trolling". If anything, its you're making an ad hominem attack against me for pointing out your delusions.
No, "comrade", what you do is making a troll post and a straw man attack.
But I don't expect you came to this thread to actually argue. Your signature alone shows what a massive waste of space and time you are. Don't expect any further response to your trolling and I expect a moderator will take care of you shortly.

I am not on my own computer ATM but I have a response in the making at my home comp. Sorry for the long wait. If any other CWI comrades want to make any comments in the meantime, feel free to do so, as I won't be home until sunday evening.

Crux
1st May 2010, 05:14
You need to calm down and stop making personal attacks against me. If BrazilianTrotskyist meant something else when they said: "http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1736150#post1736150) please, support the Nepalese revolution is not the same as supporting the Maoists.", then I await with baited breath for a clarification from them.
So if we imagine a country with no marxists, where, say, anarchists are leading the revolution, would it be delusional to argue for marxism as the correct method in that country?
Or would you hop on the anarchist train then?

Crux
1st May 2010, 05:22
Yes, I would as I'm not so hung up on labels, its the working class/peasantry that matters for me.
I bet you would. So if that's the way you view ideology why don't you go ahead and become a liberal right now? Or a conservative? After all those sentiements are by far the most popular among all the masses of the world, currently that is.

Crux
1st May 2010, 05:41
I do not go by popularity, but by the military and economic gains of the working class/peasantry. If you think that liberals/conservatives are for working class rule, then I'm sorry for you.

And, I seriously doubt that people voting for liberals/conservatives actually believe in their BS.
As do I incidentally, however I have an ideology and a method, called marxism, through which to interpret such gains. Something which you seem to lack.

Crux
1st May 2010, 06:02
Yes. You're the only true Marxist around.:blink:
Your words, not mine. Now go troll somewhere else.

The Grey Blur
1st May 2010, 07:00
Yes. We need to support the invisible Trotskyists of Nepal.:rolleyes: Sorry, but I'm tired of such delusional posters who imagine there is some kind of Trotskyist presence in Nepal or other countries where the real struggles are being fought and won by the masses. There seems to be a real mental problem with certain people who seem to be out of touch with reality.
Actually I thought that was a really good point and in the end pointed out the contradictions within the 'Maoist' movement itself - the conflict between the elements of the movement who want a reconciliation with the ruling class and the revolutionary workers & peasants. And the point is also that the Nepalese revolutionaries aren't really 'Maoist' or 'Stalinist' these are kind of meaningless terms without the corresponding grotesque faux-socialist states would supported them and lent them ideological and practical power...the Maoists have no blueprint for the creation of socialism, and if the working classes come to the fore then we may see a further radicalisation of the movement in terms of its demands and aims. You could even see 'Trotskyist' demands - a refusal for compromise with the bourgeois/landowing class for example. May day will certainly be interesting anyway and the Nepalese situation with its relation to what is going in Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland & Latin America makes me hopeful for the near future.

Palingenisis
1st May 2010, 08:20
And the point is also that the Nepalese revolutionaries aren't really 'Maoist' or 'Stalinist' these are kind of meaningless terms without the corresponding grotesque faux-socialist states would supported them and lent them ideological and practical power...the Maoists have no blueprint for the creation of socialism, and if the working classes come to the fore then we may see a further radicalisation of the movement in terms of its demands and aims. .

They uphold Stalin and Mao....So yes they are "Stalinist" (a meaningless term as comrade Stalin was not that an original thinker and just followed Lenin's legacy) and Maoist (they uphold Maoism as the third stage of Marxism). And yes they do have a blue print for the creation of socialism...The experiances of the USSR, China, Albania and the bases areas of the Indian and Peruvian revolution. To be pretend that they are really confused Trotskyites is laughable. Pretending that Maoism is somehow a reformist movement shows no knowledge of its history.

The Grey Blur
1st May 2010, 09:25
I'm not implying that the revolutionary workers & peasants in Nepal are 'Maoist' or 'Trotskyist' or any defined left ideology - my point was that the weight of Stalinism is gone, the ideas of the popular front class collaboration, the massive controlling intelligence bodies etc are gone, which really makes the situation more interesting- without these trappings what then does it really mean to be Maoist? Do you think the workers and peasants in Nepal are fervently in support of Mao Zedong Thought and the New Democracy or whatever other Maoist apocrypha you can conjure up? No, obviously not, they are not motivated by some orthodox stalinism but rather a genuine desire for revolution. As the working classes in Nepal become more involved in the struggle as is happening now you will also see their leadership coming to the fore, exacerbating the divides in the party as well as contributing to a more revolutionary outlook.


Pretending that Maoism is somehow a reformist movement shows no knowledge of its history. I'm no student of Nepalese revolutionary history but these are the same Maoists that entered the bourgeois government a few years ago, right? Who's leaders speak about a 'reconciliation with capitalism' along the lines of the chinese model. So it's quite obvious that there are contradictory trends within the party, which like I said reflects its own confused class make-up.

Whereas you divide every revolutionary struggle into a sectarian "one for us" or "one for them" I prefer to apply a Marxist analysis and also to forget about 'Maoist' or 'Trotskyist' but rather apply those ideas - if you want to be orthodox about it what would a 'Trotskyist' program be in Nepal? It would be a Bolshevik-Leninist one, and what would a 'Maoist' one be? Well it appears to be conciliation with the bourgeois. There is a mass movement now in Nepal and which road they take is not a matter of 'Mao' or 'Trotsky' but reform or revolution.

bricolage
1st May 2010, 11:02
Those damned trotskysts....and they are allied of the UK imperialism since the time of Henry the VIII....I heard it in a bar during a brawl among stalinists

Ah...
:blushing:
Time to leave...

red cat
1st May 2010, 11:50
I'm not implying that the revolutionary workers & peasants in Nepal are 'Maoist' or 'Trotskyist' or any defined left ideology - my point was that the weight of Stalinism is gone, the ideas of the popular front class collaboration, the massive controlling intelligence bodies etc are gone, which really makes the situation more interesting- without these trappings what then does it really mean to be Maoist?

Stalinism is now a force greater than what it had been in the past few decades. The UCPN(M) firmly upholds Stalin. The popular front is equated with class collaboration only by armchair-revolutionary Trots like yourself. Now you have come up with the ridiculous theory that the Maoists are not Maoist.


Do you think the workers and peasants in Nepal are fervently in support of Mao Zedong Thought and the New Democracy or whatever other Maoist apocrypha you can conjure up? No, obviously not, they are not motivated by some orthodox stalinism but rather a genuine desire for revolution. Things always happen in a revolution that way. If the revolution in Nepal fails, after a decade or two your tendency will surely come up with more lies claiming how the Nepalese revolution was an orthodox Stalinist one.


As the working classes in Nepal become more involved in the struggle as is happening now you will also see their leadership coming to the fore, exacerbating the divides in the party as well as contributing to a more revolutionary outlook.

I'm no student of Nepalese revolutionary history but these are the same Maoists that entered the bourgeois government a few years ago, right? Participating in the parliament is a part of the revolutionary strategy in Nepal.


Who's leaders speak about a 'reconciliation with capitalism' along the lines of the chinese model. So it's quite obvious that there are contradictory trends within the party, which like I said reflects its own confused class make-up. Difference of opinion prevails in all revolutionary parties. The UCPN(M) is not a pure-Trot party in which all the leaders will agree in practice not to have a revolution.




Whereas you divide every revolutionary struggle into a sectarian "one for us" or "one for them" I prefer to apply a Marxist analysis and also to forget about 'Maoist' or 'Trotskyist' but rather apply those ideas - if you want to be orthodox about it what would a 'Trotskyist' program be in Nepal? It would be a Bolshevik-Leninist one, and what would a 'Maoist' one be? Well it appears to be conciliation with the bourgeois. There is a mass movement now in Nepal and which road they take is not a matter of 'Mao' or 'Trotsky' but reform or revolution.We always hear about what a Trotskyite program would be. Let's see a Trot revolutionary party implementing a Trot program in Nepal.

Die Neue Zeit
1st May 2010, 16:18
Today the Maoists have called for a general strike:

http://www.salon.com/wires/allwires/2010/05/01/D9FE2VM80_as_nepal_maoist_protest/index.html

Tower of Bebel
1st May 2010, 17:10
Does anyone want to answer my question?

Die Neue Zeit
1st May 2010, 20:15
Notwithstanding your quotations archive, why did they join an interim government?

I don't know how to answer this, since the Nepalese working class is so small in comparison to the rest of the Nepalese population.

I know you're trying to critique coalitionism here, but I presume they entered government so they could enact things like land reform.

Saorsa
2nd May 2010, 02:31
Could a moderator please remove the trolling and off topic sectarian attacks from this thread? It's painful to read.

Rakunin, I've put forward my thoughts on your question here. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1683898&postcount=20)

Tower of Bebel
2nd May 2010, 08:46
Your post was informative CA, but it fails to persuade me, not because I'm probably dogmatic, anti-maoist, etc, but because your post (and that of others) doesn't always address the issue.

I'm confused about this part:

It has always amazed me that people in the West can assume that Prachanda, Bhattarai, Kiran and the other leaders of the Nepali revolution were naive enough to think they could push their revolutionary program successfully through a parliament where they did not hold an outright majority. These are not idiots – these are the leaders of the most successful revolutionary struggle in decades, leaders who have been waging struggling blow for blow with the ruling class for decades now. These people know what they’re doing. I believe they entered into the coalition government in the full knowledge that this period in government would end with a collision between them and the reactionary parties.
Are parliament and government the same in Nepal? I think they're not, at least in most places. And you cannot argue by saying that the situation is "different". I don't think that the Bolshevik example of 1917 cannot work in Nepal in 2006-2010 because Nepal is "different".

The Maoists have set out to prove, in practice, before the eyes of all Nepalis, that peaceful change is impossible.Did Maoists have to join a government to prove that? Why not prove it as part of the opposition (in parliament)? That's why "the Bolsheviks" fought to get the workers curia (the Russian Duma had different curia occupied by representatives of different class/estates like the workers' curia). It would be the Bolshevik/workers' platform in parliament to expose the undemocratic nature of the ruling class. But they did not want to join a government unless it would be on the basis of their minimum programme of radical (working class) democracy. That's what was to be learned from the Gotha and Erfurt Critique of Marx and Engels.

So the thing I would like to now is: did the Maoists concede anything to the ruling class(es) of Nepal? Can I find their programme somewhere (so that I can see for myself what i'm dealing with)? I know that they mobilized "the masses" when they were ousted, and that's good, but I don't know what the demands were and how the party (programme) related to these "masses".

Saorsa
2nd May 2010, 10:10
Your post was informative CA, but it fails to persuade me, not because I'm probably dogmatic, anti-maoist, etc, but because your post (and that of others) doesn't always address the issue.

I can but try. The fact that you're willing to have a serious and respectful discussion of these questions in the first place indicates that you're not a completely hopeless dogmatic ;-)


Are parliament and government the same in Nepal? I think they're not, at least in most places.

They're not the same in any part of Nepal. I think you're missing the point I tried to make in that paragraph - that the Maoist tried to push their radical program forward in a situation where they didn't have a parliamentary majority, and thus knew they almost certainly couldn't succeed. They formed a coalition government to prove to the people that they were different to the other parties and were trying to lead the country in order to change the country, as opposed to the corrupt parties of the past who just wanted to line their own pockets. They did this - as Finance Minister Bhattarai cracked down on corruption in the bureaucracy and raised more revenue for the state than any other Finance Minister in history, money which would have financed the radical and ambitious budget he proposed, a budget which was never passed due to the collapse of the Maoist-led government.

Either way, this is not an important point. I never said parliament and the govt are the same thing in Nepal.


And you cannot argue by saying that the situation is "different". I don't think that the Bolshevik example of 1917 cannot work in Nepal in 2006-2010 because Nepal is "different".

Well, there we have to differ. I don't think the Bolshevik example of 1917 will ever or could possibly ever work outside of the Bolshevik example in 1917. Think about what you're saying. Would you have argued in 1917 that all Lenin's deviations from the example of the Paris Commune were evidence of him being counter-revolutionary?

"We don't need a party, we don't need to organise on a national level, we don't need to do all kinds of things... I don't think that the Communard example of 1871 cannot work in Russia in 1917 because Russia is "different"."

We urgently need to get over the idea that we should analyse new revolutionary tactics on the basis of how they compare to what Lenin did in 1917. It's ahistorical, unscientific, unMarxist and fundamentally different to how Lenin actually led the 1917 revolution. He didn't do it by copying the tactics of 1871, he proposed radically new tactics which shocked and alienated large sections of the international revolutionary movement at the time.

If we're going to discuss Nepal, let's discuss Nepal. Let's discuss whether or not we think the Maoist-led government etc has or has not moved Nepal closer to successful and decisive revolution, and let's justify our opinions with both argument and evidence.


Did Maoists have to join a government to prove that? Why not prove it as part of the opposition (in parliament)?

It's a fair question. That's what the Indian Maoists advised them to do, so this isn't just a Trotskyist attack on Maoism (before any suggests that to be the case). I don't have any definitive answers to it. But I would like to add that I'm always very wary of assuming that I can tell revolutionaries on the other side of the world what the best tactic is for them to advance their struggle. The Nepali comrades obviously felt that forming a government was the best way to advance their movement towards revolutionary change, and they have explained why they did this several times, most notably in Bhattarai's famous interview with the WPRM. (http://kasamaproject.org/2009/12/12/interview-with-nepals-bhattarai/)

One brief answer I can give is this. One of the main reasons the Maoists went into government was to expose on a massive scale that change could not come through parliament alone, to act out a theatrical rendition of 'Reform or Revolution' that every illiterate Nepali could see and understand. The only way for them to do this was by forming a government. Their aim was to raise people's consciousness, and if they'd stayed in opposition this would not have happened. People would have simply assumed that the reason the radical program could not be pushed forward was because the Maoists were in opposition, and all they had to do was win the next election and lead the government.

The Maoists have exposed the UML, the Congress and all the other parties of the current 22 Party Coalition to the masses. In 2006, in the second Janaandolan, the urban masses took to the streets waving a fairly even mix of Maoist flags, UML flags, Congress flags and so on. That's now changed. The old parties have been swept into irrelevancy, their support base lost to the UCPN (M) and their cadres too scared to walk the streets. Nepal is in a situation of dual power, the the balance of power has shifted to the Maoists. It's shifting every day - the only two things keeping the Nepali reactionary elite in power are the Nepal Army and the hand of foreign interference, notably Indian expansionism. The Maoists are manouvering themselves into a position where they are so strong across the nation that neither of these forces can stop them.


That's why "the Bolsheviks" fought to get the workers curia (the Russian Duma had different curia occupied by representatives of different class/estates like the workers' curia). It would be the Bolshevik/workers' platform in parliament to expose the undemocratic nature of the ruling class.

But that proves my point. That is exactly what the Maoists have done over the past few years. The army refused to accept civilian control. The UML and the Congress, despite losing the election, intervened to protect the insubordinate army chief. The Maoists are now the party of democracy and peace, and the other parties are the parties of reaction and warmongering.

Here's my question - why are we getting so hung up on the issue of forming a government? What eternal principle is there, existing in a theoretical vacuum isolated from social conditions, that prevents revolutionaries from forming a government from a position of strength? It's never been tried before, it's been a new experiment, and so far it appears to have worked. Why all this outrage? The reason Marx and Lenin criticised the entry of small communist forces into bourgeois government's was precisely because they were so small, and it represented the subordination of a working class movement to a particular faction of the bourgeoisie. That is not the case in Nepal. The Maoists awere the dominant force in the government, they set the agenda and the only thing the other parties could do was occasionally say no. And every time these parties said no, it was over an issue that publicly exposed them to the masses as reactionary. Land reform was opposed, these parties became anti-peasant. The radical Maoist union movement was attacked in cabinet meetings, these parties became anti-worker. The government moved to fire General Katawal and (Nepal Congress affiliated) President Yadav stepped in to block it, leading to the collapse of the Maoist-led government and the formation of a UML-led government... and every party involved in that new government became associated with military dominance and anti-democracy.


But they did not want to join a government unless it would be on the basis of their minimum programme of radical (working class) democracy. That's what was to be learned from the Gotha and Erfurt Critique of Marx and Engels.

The Maoist minimum programme was the removal of the monarchy, and at the time of the government being formed there was discussion over whether the monarchy could continue to play a role in Nepali society. The Congress, for example, supported the monarchy playing a symbolic but active role in Nepali politics. If the Maoists hadn't formed the government under their own leadership they could have protested this, but not necessarily prevented it.


So the thing I would like to now is: did the Maoists concede anything to the ruling class(es) of Nepal?

Concessions were made, but they were words on paper for the most part. The end of the armed struggle, the dissolution of the parallel state, the return of the seized land (lol) and so on... these were all real concessions, but only the first one was every truly implemented. As for during their time in government, I can't think of an example of them abandoning their revolutionary agenda to please the ruling class. A lot of uninformed Western leftists assume they reigned in workers struggles to keep the investment climate friendly (something they promised foreign capital), but in reality wages for workers in Kathmandu rose massively during their time in government and the year or so preceding it, due to a combination of large minimum wage hikes and the explosion of the radical Maoist trade union movement. Nowadays, nothing moves in Nepal without the approval of Maoist unions.


Can I find their programme somewhere (so that I can see for myself what i'm dealing with)?

I'm not sure if there's a 'programme' available in English, but there are a number of things I can refer you to.

If you go here (http://ucpnm.org/english/adopted-resol.php), you can find a list of a dozen or so documents they considered important enough to translate and make available online.

Plus there's their election manifesto, a 40 page document that doesn't appear to be online anywhere but which I have a copy of on my computer. I'll be posting it on my blog shortly, I'll link you to it when I do so if you like.

Saorsa
2nd May 2010, 13:01
I've just posted on my blog a document they released in 2008 called "NEW IDEOLOGY AND NEW LEADERSHIP FOR A NEW NEPAL: COMMITMENT PAPER OF THE CPN (MAOIST) FOR THE CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY ELECTION".

It's available here. (http://comradealastair.wordpress.com/2010/05/02/396/)

Die Neue Zeit
2nd May 2010, 16:53
I know I dissed the renegade Kautsky for his take on coalitions in The Labour Revolution, but it should be noted that, like what he said there, the coalition government formed by Prachanda was different from a hypothetical coalition with Prachanda as a junior partner.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1924/labour/ch02_b.htm#sd

Where he went wrong, of course, is to suggest coalitionism for the "labour revolution" itself and not the "middle class revolution."

CA, the reason comrade Rakunin is asking this is because there's a Marxist tradition that opposes coalitionism and mass strike fetishes: this was advocated most especially by the Kautskyan Marxist center.

However, it should be noted to both comrades that Lenin was so enthusiastic in his anti-czarism that he too was entertaining the idea of a coalition with even the f****** liberals to enact the "bourgeois-democratic revolution" - but probably from the position of the RSDLP as the senior partner (since the Russian workers, despite their size, still outnumbered the Russian bourgeoisie). Already this was a Second International taboo to even the reformists.

Tower of Bebel
2nd May 2010, 20:37
On a side note, regarding Lenin, isn't there a difference between bourgeois tasks, as a whole, and simple bourgeois democracy or bourgeois capitalism (commodity production)? Because workers can perform bourgeois tasks (getting rid of feudalism in favor of the freedom of labour f.e.) while simultaniously getting pasted the latter. In that case it would be workers' democracy and workers' commodity production (the day after the revolution).

Die Neue Zeit
2nd May 2010, 21:58
I posted a response in the RevMarx group re. Trotsky and a minimum program. Perhaps it's best if you quote it here in your response. :confused:

Saorsa
5th May 2010, 09:48
On a side note, regarding Lenin, isn't there a difference between bourgeois tasks, as a whole, and simple bourgeois democracy or bourgeois capitalism (commodity production)?

Yes, there is. But you're making the mistake of assuming the Maoists intend to maintain simple bourgeois democracy, when that is in fact what they're currently overthrowing. If you read this (http://comradealastair.wordpress.com/2010/05/05/nepals-revolution-and-the-tasks-ahead/) it's all outlined very clearly.

Commodity production itself is not going to go any time soon. You'd be the first to recognise that socialism in one country is not likely to happen very easily in a country like Nepal. The point is what direction the people of Nepal will be travelling in fairly shortly, and how they will be travelling there. This revolution is going to transform the country in ways we probably won't expect.


Because workers can perform bourgeois tasks (getting rid of feudalism in favor of the freedom of labour f.e.) while simultaniously getting pasted the latter. In that case it would be workers' democracy and workers' commodity production (the day after the revolution).

Well, workers and peasants production in a country like Nepal. And collectivisation won't happen overnight, which means land to the tiller, which means the development of private property relations throughout the countryside. That's the development of capitalism, and it's a necessary part of the revolution in Nepal just like it was for a time in Russia. But as Mao made clear in his writings and in the example of China, the moment the agrarian and democratic revolution is won is the moment the socialist revolution begins. One seamless process.

This is a revolution where the people themselves are in the streets of Kathmandu seizing democracy in their bare hands. What they transform it into will be up to them.