Propaganda much more ingrained than we think....

[RadioRaheem84]

After subjecting myself to two whole days of arguing with American conservatives on a regular non-partisan forum dedicated to politics, I have come to the conclusion that American right wing ideology is severely ingrained in to the American psyche and almost second nature to many Americans.

There is literally almost no recourse but to be complete ideological enemies with them and foster NO common ground. They have developed a polar-alternate world based on their own beliefs and they are willing to defend it to the very last breath. The situation is so severe in the States that it's past the point to where they represent an opposing viewpoint, it's literally entered the realm of illogical ramblings that bear no semblance of actual real world issues. It's dangerous thinking and they revel in it.

It is literally a waste of time for many liberals to engage them and let them introduce such ridiculous premises as the ones American right wingers harbor. Sometimes I think that they're only allowed on television to engage rational liberal thinkers as a way to keep the political spectrum for going further to the left.

The progression of years and years of imperial defense and American propaganda has culminated into proto-fascist tendencies in the American right, if not full blown fascism.

[The Gallant Gallstone]

I'd absolutely agree that the climate in this country right now is hostile to socialism.

Fortunately for us popular attitudes are hardly static. I see no need to focus excessively on the Teabagger in his late-fifties who thinks the government is the source of all evil yet supports a trillion dollar annual military budget.

We need to focus on his kids instead. We need to think long-term.

[RadioRaheem84]

Yes, we need to focus on the younger generation and liberally minded people.

A huge portion of the nation has not only turned rather hostile to socialism but to reform in general (unless that reform leads to less government and more corporate control).

[Hexen]

I also realize that debating with most USians (and liberals/Right-Wing conservatives or possibly everysingle capitalist) is like debating with 9-year olds that stick their tong out and always retort to ridicule, lies, victim blaming, manipulation, defamation/slandering/libel, ad hominem attacks, character assassinations, straw man fallacies/attacks, and such...(as if they never grown up or simply a child in a adults body...)

Yes they are a complete waste of time and they can't listen/learn nor they cannot be reasoned with and perhaps they'll never will. Like I said before, it definatly takes the term "Stupid American" (or "Dumbing Down America") to a whole new level....

[RadioRaheem84]

Well, I know they're stubborn but their intelligence isn't one to question. They do research stuff but basically look for bias reactionary stuff that defends their view of the world. These people aren't dumb, some are, but not all. They want to be indoctrinated.

It's not a matter of logic, it's matter of the wanting to be blatantly nationalistic.

[CartCollector]

They do research stuff but basically look for bias reactionary stuff that defends their view of the world. These people aren't dumb, some are, but not all. They want to be indoctrinated.

That's called confirmation bias. It's not just the teabaggers that do it, everyone does it to some extent. How often do you go out of your way to read capitalist apologetics from Rothbard or Hayek?

[RadioRaheem84]

How often do you go out of your way to read capitalist apologetics from Rothbard or Hayek?

I just re-read Capitalism and Freedom by Friedman.

I also own a copy of Marxism and A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell.

They're covered in notes!

I read them to understand the presuppositions of the right libertarians.

[Hexen]

It's not a matter of logic, it's matter of the wanting to be blatantly nationalistic.

Hmmm...Maybe it's something to do with American Exceptionalism or something where they had been taught eversince childbirth that "American is the freest in the country in the world" but the contradictions they witness however makes them want to "set thing back what they were before" or "setting America back what the founding forefathers intended" or some shit like that.

I think this concludes that most USians are very prone to be reactionaries due to what they have taught all their lives which is where the main problem lies here.

I think the simple solution is to teach them real history of the US including their idolized "founding forefathers" were not as what they claimed to be is the real strategy here. Not to mention they also need to learn how our system actually operates since alot of them don't even know this either and also learn that the US is not the only "free country" educating them about going on outside in the world or they can simply visit there...

[RadioRaheem84]

Well most nations around the world at least have somewhat of an understanding that socialism has its historical roots in the principles and the values of the Enlightenment and is a kin of liberalism in it's mantra, it just takes these principles to their logical end.

So it doesn't bother people in other countries that there is a Socialist, Labor or even Communist Party competing with Liberal Parties in their Republics.

But in the States, this connection to the history of progressive ideas has been severed. People in States view Socialism and or Communism now the way people in Europe probably view Fascism. That it's some violent outgrowth of liberal democracy that pits hard working people against opportunists who want to enslave them and steal their freedoms. It's as if all historical links of Socialism/Communism being Democratic Movements that took the ideas of the Englightenment to the tenth degree have been totally removed from the history books. Instead it's villianized in the same vein as Fascism and Nazism in the States.

It's really weird.

[Hexen]

Hmmm...maybe it has something to do with the US's individualism or their warped understanding of it or simply the US belief of the "American Dream"?

It strikes as if US society basically convinces people that "anyone can become rich/wealthy if you make it up to the top yourself" which makes people believe that any help from anyone (the government, etc) interferes with their "individuality" of rising to the top and whatever bullshit they believe in? (this is also why the US tends the view people living in poverty as "they didn't make it therefore their utter failures" or just simply "trash"...that explains alot)

Even though in reality, you have to be born into being wealthy since your still going to be stuck in the same class...

I guess most USians or either mentally ill or simply deluded due to their beliefs of "rising to the top"...

In short: Look at the movie "Scarface" for example which pretty much defines the USian psyche in a nutshell that "everyone can rise to the top themselves" or simply Tony Montana is their idol...

[CartCollector]

Hexen, you've pretty much got the understanding of the US psyche down pat. Though I'd like to expand a bit on this:



It strikes as if US society basically convinces people that "anyone can become rich/wealthy if you make it up to the top yourself" which makes people believe that any help from anyone (the government, etc) interferes with their "individuality" of rising to the top and whatever bullshit they believe in? (this is also why the US tends the view people living in poverty as "they didn't make it therefore their utter failures" or just simply "trash"...that explains alot)
True, they see the poor as people that take their money indirectly via government programs paid for by the income tax. This is why you see so much vitriol against the government and the income tax: they see it as a means by which the poor are allowed to be lazy and get drunk and pop out babies while they have to be responsible and work for a living.

Interesting story about this: I had a conservative Tea Party supporter question me about socialism. She said that socialists aren't concerned with efficiency, but only with allocation. As she put it, they want to change how the pie is cut, but not make a bigger pie. I showed how this is false- I pointed out how capitalism is inefficient because it has less than full employment. Under socialism, there is full employment, so therefore every person has to do less work since it's distributed amongst more people. The second point I tried to bring up was that there would be less idle leeches taking money from the workers- this confused her, and she said "no, there'll be more..." and I said "no, there'll be less" and I tried to clarify that these idle leeches were in positions like finance, investment, and management.

As the second part hints, a good segment of America sees that their economic problems can mostly be blamed on government provided welfare for the poor, the taxes that go to pay for it, and the laziness they think it encourages. It's a shame that when people here receive their pay, they see how much of it is taken by the government, but they have no way of seeing the surplus value taken by their employer, which in all likelihood amounts to much more than the government would ever have the gall to take.

Also, American exceptionalism is necessary to hold this view that taxes and welfare are the sole cause of economic catastrophe. This is because, if you try to bring up how most other developed countries have higher taxes and more welfare and are doing fine if not better, they have to have some way to deal with these facts. Hence these countries are labled 'socialist' and aren't really as prosperous and efficient as the good ole USA is.

[Hexen]

I also found a song by Peter Gabriel called "Big Time" which I think this clearly defines the USian psyche in a nutshell of "making it" or "raising to the top"...

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