Who Uses Human Shields - Hamas or Israeli Soldiers?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Now, I've heard the arguments against the Hamas, & they're understandable at times. There's the idea that they're anti-semitic, which they've shown cartoons that were made that showed opposition against the Zionists. Though, I think we've already pointed out how there's a difference between being anti-semitic & anti-zionist. So that's out of the bag. The main argument I've heard against the Hamas is that they use human shields during a line of fire. I've seen a couple videos that supposedly shows such actions, though the first one doesn't really make it clear who these armed militants are & only shows them pushing a kid forward. Another one is when a guy in a jacket, covering his entire face of course, is running away from someone while he grabs a child by his book bag & carries him as the use of a human shield it seems. Two things I want to point out, 1) is he really using the child as a human shield or to get the kid to safety? 2) how in the hell can they tell that was a member of the Hamas? Here's the video I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J08GqXMr3YE

So the idea that they're using human shields is really sketchy & I haven't seen much evidence to even prove such is taking place. Though, when it comes to the Israeli soldiers using human shields during a line of fire, there's no debating about this. We know, for a fact, that this is going on & has been going on, despite the fact that it's illegal to do so. Here's a video reporting it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNf0xM942dM&feature=related

[ZombieGrits]

I don't think either of those videos shows Hamas using children as human shields, though I wouldn't put it above them... In the first one the guys have the kid in between them and a crowd of unarmed bystanders, which the video refers to as IDF soldiers :D In the second one the guy's not even holding the kid over himself; is it still a human shield if it doesn't shield anything?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Very true, Comrade.

Can anyone even really make of who the first guys may be, whether it be Hamas, or anybody else?

[Scary Monster]

I don't think either of those videos shows Hamas using children as human shields, though I wouldn't put it above them... In the first one the guys have the kid in between them and a crowd of unarmed bystanders, which the video refers to as IDF soldiers :D In the second one the guy's not even holding the kid over himself; is it still a human shield if it doesn't shield anything?

Lol exactly. In addition to that, absolutely any statement the IDF or Israeli government has made about Hamas using women and children as human shields is just libel. There is no evidence at all to support this. Journalists arent even allowed in IDF-occupied territory at all, so these claims cant be substantiated at all. It's just another attempt to demonize Hamas. But what i know is perfectly substantiated, as we all know already, is the fact that IDF soldiers had t-shirts depicting pregnant Palestinian women being shot in the belly. Kinda shows how much the IDF themselves care about civilians, eh?

[Scary Monster]

Very true, Comrade.

Can anyone even really make of who the first guys may be, whether it be Hamas, or anybody else?

Well they werent in combat, thats for sure. Civilians were just walking around casually, because nothing was happening. If he was really under fire (the second guy in the first vid), or if there was fire nearby, all the 20 other civilians would have been ducking or running away.

[Robocommie]

The Israelis care so much about Palestinian civilians, they don't let humanitarian convoys or supplies in to Palestinian areas, and go on bombing campaigns of dense civilian areas.

I mean hey, the Palestinians fight in civilian areas because that's what they're trying to defend. They're defending their homes and their lives from those Zionist bastards. I mean shit, you look at that second clip where an Israeli soldier, in the most self-righteous of possible ways, points out how the Palestinians are monsters because of their disregard for the lives and property of civilians, but then later in that same clip it's explained from sources as credible as the fucking BBC that even though the Israeli's own Supreme Court ordered them to stop using Palestinian civilians (and kids!) as human shields, they still do it. And this IDF, the bastards who use kids as human shields, we're supposed to trust them when they say, "Hay guys, we found this map that shows Palestinians are bad. I promise we didn't draw it ourselves."

Fuck the IDF.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Lol exactly. In addition to that, absolutely any statement the IDF or Israeli government has made about Hamas using women and children as human shields is just libel. There is no evidence at all to support this. Journalists arent even allowed in IDF-occupied territory at all, so these claims cant be substantiated at all. It's just another attempt to demonize Hamas. But what i know is perfectly substantiated, as we all know already, is the fact that IDF soldiers had t-shirts depicting pregnant Palestinian women being shot in the belly. Kinda shows how much the IDF themselves care about civilians, eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4-kWMb2zpI

[ZombieGrits]

The Israelis care so much about Palestinian civilians, they don't let humanitarian convoys or supplies in to Palestinian areas, and go on bombing campaigns of dense civilian areas.

Well there's really no question that the Zionist regime is a human-rights disaster... They just do their best to exploit Western biases to try to justify their brutality against the Arabs. Something like "sure we're bad, but they're worse"

[Robocommie]

Well there's really no question that the Zionist regime is a human-rights disaster... They just do their best to exploit Western biases to try to justify their brutality against the Arabs. Something like "sure we're bad, but they're worse"

Or at the very least, that the bad things they do are justified because they're doing it all in self-defense. And it works very well, because Europeans, and Americans to some extent, have in the past persecuted Jews to a horrible extent, so we feel guilty, and the we find this idea, that Jews are always victims and never aggressors themselves, to be easy to swallow.

[ZombieGrits]

Bah. The conduct of the Zionist reactionaries almost makes me want to support the Islamist reactionaries! :(

[Scary Monster]

Bah. The conduct of the Zionist reactionaries almost makes me want to support the Islamist reactionaries! :(

Like i always say, it's a choice between being exterminated (at the very least, displaced and forced to move to another country or subjugated under US and Israel's rule etc.) under Israel, or being under the rule of Islamist reactionaries, but at least having a chance to overthrow them after they gain sovereignty from Israel. But thats considering Hamas has an ulterior motive behind their current welfare state for the Palestinian people, as some folks here speculate.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Like i always say, it's a choice between being exterminated (at the very least, displaced and forced to move to another country or subjugated under US and Israel's rule etc.) under Israel, or being under the rule of Islamist reactionaries, but at least having a chance to overthrow them after they gain sovereignty from Israel. But thats considering Hamas has an ulterior motive behind their current welfare state for the Palestinian people, as some folks here speculate.

I think it's safe to say the Hamas is leading themselves in the right direction. Especially with the talks, whether it's been confirmed or not, between them & the PFLP about conjoining forces against the Zionist State.

[TheSultan]

The Israelis care so much about Palestinian civilians, they don't let humanitarian convoys or supplies in to Palestinian areas, and go on bombing campaigns of dense civilian areas.

I mean hey, the Palestinians fight in civilian areas because that's what they're trying to defend. They're defending their homes and their lives from those Zionist bastards. I mean shit, you look at that second clip where an Israeli soldier, in the most self-righteous of possible ways, points out how the Palestinians are monsters because of their disregard for the lives and property of civilians, but then later in that same clip it's explained from sources as credible as the fucking BBC that even though the Israeli's own Supreme Court ordered them to stop using Palestinian civilians (and kids!) as human shields, they still do it. And this IDF, the bastards who use kids as human shields, we're supposed to trust them when they say, "Hay guys, we found this map that shows Palestinians are bad. I promise we didn't draw it ourselves."

Fuck the IDF.

These are pretty much my sentiments exactly. They get away with so much more than they or anyone else in this world should. The war crimes they've committed will just continue to pile up. I recall Israel using white-phosphorous bombs on dense civilian areas as well as the United Nations school for which they had the GPS-coordinates. They knew very well what they were doing and denied using white-phosphorous until after the conflict had ended. Yet nothing has been done about this.

[ZombieGrits]

Especially with the talks, whether it's been confirmed or not, between them & the PFLP about conjoining forces against the Zionist State.

Really now? I'd like to hear more about this, have you got any more information?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Really now? I'd like to hear more about this, have you got any more information?

well, this is an '06 article, but it shows how they've been in talks before: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3218994,00.html

I don't think they'll join up, only because the PFLP has spoken clearly how they're against the Hamas' nationalistic views, but it was on offer at one time.

UPDATE: Actually, it seems that the Hamas & the PFLP are still in a oppositional stance. There's a recent interview made with a member of the PFLP who spoke clearly how they're against the Hamas' political views: http://www.anarkismo.net/article/16137

[black magick hustla]

Now, I've heard the arguments against the Hamas, & they're understandable at times. There's the idea that they're anti-semitic, which they've shown cartoons that were made that showed opposition against the Zionists. Though, I think we've already pointed out how there's a difference between being anti-semitic & anti-zionis

Lets be clear. Hamas is antisemitic. Have you ever spoken to any arab on the issue of jews and zionists? A ton of arabs are antisemitic. I dont think Hamas is absolved of this. I think you give to much credit to normal people's political belief. Most people are not as nuanced to distinguished antizionism from antisemitism, including palestinians and arabs.

[Robocommie]

Lets be clear. Hamas is antisemitic. Have you ever spoken to any arab on the issue of jews and zionists? A ton of arabs are antisemitic. I dont think Hamas is absolved of this. I think you give to much credit to normal people's political belief. Most people are not as nuanced to distinguished antizionism from antisemitism, including palestinians and arabs.

I think it's a pretty tricky and problematic thing to condemn Hamas and Arabs for their anti-Semitism, when in the Palestinian context, they are the persecuted group, not the Jews. That's not to say racism or prejudice is acceptable, but I think Palestinians are anti-Semitic implies that they are in any way in a position of power from which they can persecute Jews.

And I guess to be really technical, Arabs are a Semitic people themselves, anyhow.

[fionntan]

The occupying British forces in Ireland have always used human shields.

[black magick hustla]

I think it's a pretty tricky and problematic thing to condemn Hamas and Arabs for their anti-Semitism, when in the Palestinian context, they are the persecuted group, not the Jews. That's not to say racism or prejudice is acceptable, but I think Palestinians are anti-Semitic implies that they are in any way in a position of power from which they can persecute Jews.

And I guess to be really technical, Arabs are a Semitic people themselves, anyhow.

I am not condemning anybody. I am disputing the fact that Hamas is not antisemitic. This is a leftist dream and lie, and it comes from people who never interact with arabs. I think their antisemitism is understandable. Its not correct though. Its even worse to think that antisemitism is not a reality with arabs, which is really strong.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I am not condemning anybody. I am disputing the fact that Hamas is not antisemitic. This is a leftist dream and lie, and it comes from people who never interact with arabs. I think their antisemitism is understandable. Its not correct though. Its even worse to think that antisemitism is not a reality with arabs, which is really strong.

Well, you may be right. In which you could possibly prove. But what's in question right now is whether they use other people as human shields during the line of fire. We're not here to defend the Hamas on everything they do, in which would be a mistake, given that the PFLP is a far better organization, because of their Marxist views.

[Chambered Word]

That video supposedly proves Hamas is using children as human shields? You'd have to be smoking crack to believe that.

[Andropov]

The occupying British forces in Ireland have always used human shields.
Yup, its no coincidence squadies went on patrols when children were getting out of school.

[Sam_b]

given that the PFLP is a far better organization, because of their Marxist views.

Aah, the usual stereotyped leftist outcry because the PFLP are apparently 'Marxist'. Why if the PFLP a 'far better organization' despite it being open to a two state solution, and shamelessly siding with Fatah in 2006 in its attempts to overthrow the democratically elected Hamas government?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Aah, the usual stereotyped leftist outcry because the PFLP are apparently 'Marxist'. Why if the PFLP a 'far better organization' despite it being open to a two state solution, and shamelessly siding with Fatah in 2006 in its attempts to overthrow the democratically elected Hamas government?

Actually, in 2006, the PFLP were trying to get the Fatah & the Hamas to join forces with them so that they could have much larger numbers against the Zionist state. But, if you would just look up recent articles on the PFLP, you'd notice that they are highly critical against the Fatah & the Hamas & are now distancing themselves away from them.

[Barry Lyndon]

Lets be clear. Hamas is antisemitic. Have you ever spoken to any arab on the issue of jews and zionists? A ton of arabs are antisemitic. I dont think Hamas is absolved of this. I think you give to much credit to normal people's political belief. Most people are not as nuanced to distinguished antizionism from antisemitism, including palestinians and arabs.

I have lived in the Middle East and actually know a lot of Arabs, and only a handful in my experience are actually prejudiced against all Jews, most are justifiably very angry and upset with Israel and Zionism. Stop using 'Hamas' and 'Arabs' interchangeably. 'Hamas' is one political organization that doesn't speak for all Palestinians, much less 400 million Arabs. That's rather despicable for you to pass sweeping judgement on hundreds of millions of people blanketly.
Although I agree, Hamas is anti-Semitic, its charter claims that a Jewish conspiracy was behind both world wars and they publish Arabic-language copies of 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'.

[black magick hustla]

I have lived in the Middle East and actually know a lot of Arabs, and only a handful in my experience are actually prejudiced against all Jews, most are justifiably very angry and upset with Israel and Zionism. Stop using 'Hamas' and 'Arabs' interchangeably. 'Hamas' is one political organization that doesn't speak for all Palestinians, much less 400 million Arabs. That's rather despicable for you to pass sweeping judgement on hundreds of millions of people blanketly.
Although I agree, Hamas is anti-Semitic, its charter claims that a Jewish conspiracy was behind both world wars and they publish Arabic-language copies of 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'.

90% of my family is middle eastern. So yes, this is an exchange of anecdotal evidence. But I think I can say with certainty that if not most, a lot of arabs are antisemitic. You might find that statement despicable, but I am sorry. Its as factual as saying a lot of pakistanis hate indians.

[Devrim]

I have lived in the Middle East and actually know a lot of Arabs, and only a handful in my experience are actually prejudiced against all Jews, most are justifiably very angry and upset with Israel and Zionism. Stop using 'Hamas' and 'Arabs' interchangeably. 'Hamas' is one political organization that doesn't speak for all Palestinians, much less 400 million Arabs. That's rather despicable for you to pass sweeping judgement on hundreds of millions of people blanketly.

I live in the Middle East, and am actually an Arab national. I now live in Turkey, but previously lived in an Arab country, and have visited most of the countries in the region. In my experience anti-Semitism is widespread in Arab countries. Then again, I would be really surprised if it wasn't. Acknowledging the facts isn't in any way 'despicable'.

Devrim

[bricolage]

Then again, I would be really surprised if it wasn't.

How so?

[black magick hustla]

How so?
Israel.

[bricolage]

Israel.

Oh right yeah.
I remember seeing as quite by Olmert or Barak I can't remember who about the war in Lebanon saying something "I believe this is a war being fought by all Jews". I suppose when the Israeli states claims to be synonymous with the global Jewish population it is hardly surprising when its enemies do too.

[Robocommie]

Oh right yeah.
I remember seeing as quite by Olmert or Barak I can't remember who about the war in Lebanon saying something "I believe this is a war being fought by all Jews". I suppose when the Israeli states claims to be synonymous with the global Jewish population it is hardly surprising when its enemies do too.

Yeah, Israel has a lot of blame for the anti-Semitism that has developed in the Middle East, and not just because they're Jews and aggressors, but because they do so much to define the situation in Palestine as a war between all Jews, and the Arabs who want to murder them in their beds.

They justify whatever they want to do by borrowing credibility from the legitimate grievances of Jews around the world, and throughout history.

[RadioRaheem84]

90% of my family is middle eastern. So yes, this is an exchange of anecdotal evidence. But I think I can say with certainty that if not most, a lot of arabs are antisemitic. You might find that statement despicable, but I am sorry. Its as factual as saying a lot of pakistanis hate indians.And a lot of Americans hate Mexicans. And a lot of Chileans hate Peruvians. And a lot of Chinese hate Japanese.

It's fair to say that a lot of nationalities hate other nationalities, that is the only certainty.

The point here is that despite the perceived antisemitism in Arab countries, there is a justifiable anger toward Israel's near genocidal policy against the Palestinians. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't work peacefully with some political groups in the Arab world that don't use antisemitism as a way to understand the reality of the situation and thus do not distract from assessing Israel's record of crime in the Gaza Strip.

I just don't think you're being fair using words like "most" if not "all" when trying to assess the dissatisfaction Arabs have toward the Israeli state. Some of them just might be anti-Semitic but you cannot just say that most are just Jew-haters.

[black magick hustla]

And a lot of Americans hate Mexicans. And a lot of Chileans hate Peruvians. And a lot of Chinese hate Japanese.

Yes. What is your point?



The point here is that despite the perceived antisemitism in Arab countries, there is a justifiable anger toward Israel's near genocidal policy against the Palestinians.
Nobody argues otherwise. What I am arguing is against the skewed image leftists have about peoples they deem "opressed". everybody eats the same shit from the capitalists, even the opressed.




I just don't think you're being fair using words like "most" if not "all" when trying to assess the dissatisfaction Arabs have toward the Israeli state. Some of them just might be anti-Semitic but you cannot just say that most are just Jew-haters.

All racism is based on real social issues. Its not only mexican haters, "nigger" ahters, jewish haters, etcetera. The social issue here is probably Israel. What I am protesting is the fact that you folks think most of these people have a political outlook as sophisticated as a communist one to be able to discern between Jews and Israel. They dont, and most people dont for that matter.

[Palingenisis]

90% of my family is middle eastern. So yes, this is an exchange of anecdotal evidence. But I think I can say with certainty that if not most, a lot of arabs are antisemitic. You might find that statement despicable, but I am sorry. Its as factual as saying a lot of pakistanis hate indians.

Yeah but what exactly do you mean by "anti-semitic"?

I honestly have trouble talking to people who I would consider "nationalist" and yet in the ICC's eyes Im sure Im an ultra-nationalist.

[black magick hustla]

Yeah but what exactly do you mean by "anti-semitic"?

I honestly have trouble talking to people who I would consider "nationalist" and yet in the ICC's eyes Im sure Im an ultra-nationalist.

when my dad goes on a rambling about jews controlling the media and then thinks some guy in some shop is ripping him off because he is a jew and that is the jewish thing to do?????????????

[comrade_cyanide444]

I mean hey, the Palestinians fight in civilian areas because that's what they're trying to defend

Exactly. The Gaza Strip is a very dense place. There are only so many places for Hamas to hide. So it's almost impossible to avoid contact with civilians. I think that it's possible that Hamas has used human shields a few times, but there are several accounts of the IDF doing the same much more. Also; remember that these civilians would be slaughtered by the IDF anyways.

I think the only guys who know what they are doing is the PFLP. If all of the resistance unites, they may be far more successful against the IDF. PFLP sided with Hamas for some time, because they were the Rejectionist Front. I don't believe in the destruction of Israel. I believe that Israel should give up 50% of their land to the Palestinians, and keep the rest. Hamas has to stop launching Qassam rockets into civilian centers and start building more accurate rockets to hit military centers before they build anti-rocket technology.

[RadioRaheem84]

Yes. What is your point?

That you didn't have one. It's fair to say that a lot of nationalities hate other nationalities, that is the only certainty.


Nobody argues otherwise. What I am arguing is against the skewed image leftists have about peoples they deem "opressed". everybody eats the same shit from the capitalists, even the opressed.


I can understand to an extent but this sounds like Hitchean moralizing. That we should be wary of certain groups because irrational pathological movements do exist and we shouldn't try to rationalize their behavior.


All racism is based on real social issues. Its not only mexican haters, "nigger" ahters, jewish haters, etcetera. The social issue here is probably Israel. What I am protesting is the fact that you folks think most of these people have a political outlook as sophisticated as a communist one to be able to discern between Jews and Israel. They dont, and most people dont for that matter.

In fact, most of your arguments do sound exactly like Paul Berman/Hitchens ramblings.

I am sure many people in the Arab world distinguish between Jews and Israel, but then again I can see why some don't when Israel keeps proclaiming itself to be the representative state of the Jewish people.

[Devrim]

And a lot of Americans hate Mexicans. And a lot of Chileans hate Peruvians. And a lot of Chinese hate Japanese.

It's fair to say that a lot of nationalities hate other nationalities, that is the only certainty.

Quite a few English people don't like the Germans or the French. I think anti-Semitism in the Middle East is more widespread than that though. Interestingly if I had said that a lot of Czechs are really anti gypsy, which they are, and it really shocked me when I lived there, I don't think it would have got the same response as we have here.


The point here is that despite the perceived antisemitism in Arab countries, there is a justifiable anger toward Israel's near genocidal policy against the Palestinians. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't work peacefully with some political groups in the Arab world that don't use antisemitism as a way to understand the reality of the situation and thus do not distract from assessing Israel's record of crime in the Gaza Strip.

It is not perceived. It really exists.

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

I can understand to an extent but this sounds like Hitchean moralizing. That we should be wary of certain groups because irrational pathological movements do exist and we shouldn't try to rationalize their behavior.


I dont think they are "irrational". They make perfect sense in the cultural logic of today. That is why Dev. said that he would be surprised if arabs were not antisemitic. I would be surprised either if americans werent racist towards latinos.





I am sure many people in the Arab world distinguish between Jews and Israel, but then again I can see why some don't when Israel keeps proclaiming itself to be the representative state of the Jewish people.


I am not moralizing anybody. The whole cultural discourse from the beginning presents Israel as the representatives of the Jews. Most people are not communists/leftists therefore most people don't have that analysis. People are products of their social contexts. And I think I am qualified enough to say, that if not most, a big fucking amount of arabs are antisemitic. Atleast more qualified than you.

[Devrim]

I honestly have trouble talking to people who I would consider "nationalist" and yet in the ICC's eyes Im sure Im an ultra-nationalist.

I talk to lots of people who are nationalists. I have friends who are Kurdish nationalists, Palestinian nationalists, Irish nationalists and even Turkish nationalists.

For us it is a political description. It is not some term of abuse that we use to say we shouldn't talk to people.

I'd like to give a recent example. During the TEKEL struggle in Turkey, the focus of the protests was in Ankara where I live though the workers came from all over the country. Workers were camped outside their union building protesting. Of course, these people needed somewhere to have a shower, and to get a decent night's sleep every few days. We had workers staying in our house who were from the South East and supporters of Kurdish nationalism. Yes, we discussed with them, but it didn't stop us extending our solidarity to them as workers in struggle, and even becoming friends. I have been invited by quite a few people to go and stay with them and will visit in the autumn.

What we say is that nationalist struggle has nothing to offer the working class.

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

Nice to see people who bleat "there are no countries" resort to such blatant racist stereotyping.

Yes, and a ton of Jewish folk are also racist. And most people are actually racist. Especially today, in a period when the class is in the defensive and in some areas mobilized in imperialist war.

So yes.

btw gj stalinotroll

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/File:Stalin_coolface.jpghttp://encyclopediadramatica.com/File:Stalin_coolface.jpg
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/File:Stalin_coolface.jpg

[Scary Monster]

I dont think they are "irrational". They make perfect sense in the cultural logic of today. That is why Dev. said that he would be surprised if arabs were not antisemitic. I would be surprised either if americans werent racist towards latinos.

There are americans racist towards latinos, but there are just as many americans who are not. So everyone would be arguing all day unless we realize that its impossible to speak for an entire population. Judging from what everyone says here, you guys all had different experiences with Arabs. So does what you say in the bolded part mean that americans hating latinos is comparable to arabs hating all jews? Because im american, and ive come across many types of people (ive been in northern california, arizona, nevada, south texas, tex-arkana and i live in southern cali), and i can definitely say that i really have not come across very many people who despise latinos. But there are parts of the US that openly hate against minorities just like there are parts that are very tolerant.

So how would you know if the indiscriminate racism towards all jews by the arabs is prevalent in their population or not? Like i said, we would be arguing this all day unless we personally know the majority of the arabs.

[Devrim]

Nice to see people who bleat "there are no countries" resort to such blatant racist stereotyping.

We don't say that there are no countries. There obviously are. We say the working class has no country. It is not 'racist stereotyping' to say that anti-Semitism is wide spread in the Arab world. Unfortunately it is a fact.

I'd rather live in the real world rather than one where people try to whitewash anything they support.

One can have a certain amount of intellectual respect for those leftists who support Palestinian nationalism because they support national liberation movements as a principle. The ones who can say that "Yes we know HAMAS is anti-Semitic, but we support it because...". I personally have very little for those who feel guilty about those sort of things and try to paint the people they are supporting as very different from how they are.

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

i live in southern cali), and i can definitely say that i really have not come across very many people who despise latinos.

tbh i dont think its a question of despising them. i do think people are wary about the issue of latinos and a lot of people see them as alien and almost inhuman. i dont think its just a matter of being a vitrol filled nazi but the fact that you go to a caf. and you see black folks dining with black folks and mexican folks dining with mexican folks and whites with whites

[Devrim]

Judging from what everyone says here, you guys all had different experiences with Arabs.

Well actually the people on this thread who have the most experience wişth Arabs, i.e. Maldoror, whose father is an Arab, and myself, an Arab national (though not ethnic Arab) have pretty similar experience.


and i can definitely say that i really have not come across very many people who despise latinos.

I'd believe that completely. I think we are talking about a completely different level. That is why we say it is widespread.


So how would you know if the indiscriminate racism towards all jews by the arabs is prevalent in their population or not? Like i said, we would be arguing this all day unless we personally know the majority of the arabs.

I presume that you don't read Arabic, but if you did I would say tey reading the Cairo, Beirut or Sham press.


So how would you know if the indiscriminate racism towards all jews by the arabs is prevalent in their population or not?

Also it is not just an ethnic thing. There is widespread anti-Semitism in the region, and that includes in Iran, and, less so but still there, Turkey.

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

The question is whether the "nationalism" of the oppressed nationalities deserves to be condemned or supported.

this is not an issue of nationalism, we where talking about racism. i am simply against whitewashing, which is intellectually dishonest.





BTW, it is not surprising to see any mention of class in the above statement. It is the imperialists and the ruling comprador classes in the service of imperialism whose interest lies in continuing the neo-colonial exploitation who are the actual racists, not the "people".

i dont have that analysis of "comprador", to me all bosses are enemies and cannot enact anything progressive anymore. i think bordiga said once that racism is a petit bourgeois phenomenon. i dont necessarily agree. i think racism is a very real thing among all layers of class society, because it is a precondition for some aspects of the functioning of imperialism. the ruling ideas are the ones of the ruling class

[Devrim]

The question is whether the "nationalism" of the oppressed nationalities deserves to be condemned or supported.


First, I don't know why nationalism is in inverted commas because Palestinian nationalism is nationalism pure and simple. Second this is not the question at all. You can argue that this nationalism should be supported and that is a different question. What we are discussing here is whether anti-Semitism is widespread in the Middle East, not the analysis we make of that.

Devrim

[Scary Monster]

tbh i dont think its a question of despising them. i do think people are wary about the issue of latinos and a lot of people see them as alien and almost inhuman. i dont think its just a matter of being a vitrol filled nazi but the fact that you go to a caf. and you see black folks dining with black folks and mexican folks dining with mexican folks and whites with whites

Yeah, but like i said, its just a matter of perspective and personal experiences. I went to the anti-nazi rally in downtown la last weekend, and i saw just as many white people chanting with blacks and latinos "Nazis go suck a d!k!!" while the neo nazis were giving their "speech". There were thousands of people there, all types of people (hundreds of commies and anarchists there too. Even marxist older white folks giving anti-war speeches. I was pleasantly surprised :) ) Have you been to the US? If not, I think youd be surprised. Ive come across racists and all, but judging from my experiences, they really are not that prevalent compared to easy-going, tolerant people.

[black magick hustla]

So, to you, Arabs allegedly hating Jews or Pakistanis allegedly hating Indians is "racism" and has nothing to do with nationalism? I say "allegedly" because according to my experience what you say is false in most cases, except for a few who genuinely believe the ruling class propaganda. Overestimating the strength of the class enemy and their ideology or underestimating the strength of the working class is not something we should engage in.
cool story bro

[empiredestoryer]

the israelis use human shields as do their friends the us army its normal practise

[The Vegan Marxist]

the israelis use human shields as do their friends the us army its normal practise

I try not supporting the actions done by the U.S. army, but can you provide any evidence to the U.S. conducting such acts as well?

[Comrade_Scott]

Lets be clear. Hamas is antisemitic. Have you ever spoken to any arab on the issue of jews and zionists? A ton of arabs are antisemitic. I dont think Hamas is absolved of this. I think you give to much credit to normal people's political belief. Most people are not as nuanced to distinguished antizionism from antisemitism, including palestinians and arabs.

not to nitpick but all of them (people in the mid east and some north africans) are semitic as they share the same genealogy:blushing:, but i do know what you mean and yes the are very anti semitic