The Libertarian Movement

[ontheyslay]

I'm not even really sure why I'm asking this question, because I know the answer. But do you people think that a Libertarian Government is better than the one we have now?

It's no secret our government (mainly speaking to those that live in the States) is controlled by corporate interests, but if a Libertarian government were to be elected both in the executive and congressional branches, would we the people be better off? If they did, by some stroke of genius, end the corporate control of government, and eliminate tort laws, eliminate corporate protections such as limited liability or even corporations all together, etc., would we, the working class, prosper?

Even if we did, would that hurt our radical movement? I'm curious as to what others think on this subject.

[Zanthorus]

The reason the corporations set up the whole welfare state thing was to stop the whole system from collapsing, not because the free market is antithetical to the welfare of corporations. If they'd let capitalism try and self-correct we'd probably have never managed to get out of the great depression.

[Proletarian Ultra]

The thing that sincere libertarians don't take into account is that economic power is also political power. They think there's some way you can just legislate that the wealthy will not hijack the state for their own gain. In fact they do and always have - the Non-Agression Principle is not something they believe in.

So...if they can show me the magic pixie dust that will make the wealthy behave, I'll be all for it. Otherwise, the only real solution is to eliminate the wealthy as a class.

[Obrero Rebelde]

The other solution might be to make everyone equally wealthy.

That would be socialism, wouldn't it?

[RED DAVE]

I'm not even really sure why I'm asking this question, because I know the answer. But do you people think that a Libertarian Government is better than the one we have now?

It's no secret our government (mainly speaking to those that live in the States) is controlled by corporate interests, but if a Libertarian government were to be elected both in the executive and congressional branches, would we the people be better off? If they did, by some stroke of genius, end the corporate control of government, and eliminate tort laws, eliminate corporate protections such as limited liability or even corporations all together, etc., would we, the working class, prosper?(emph added)

What makes you think that libertarians would end corporate control of government? It's just the opposite. Libertarians would end whatever feeble controls government has over the corporations, for the benefit of the corporations. Libertarians are shills for the corporations.

RED DAVE

[BAM]

The reason the corporations set up the whole welfare state thing was to stop the whole system from collapsing, not because the free market is antithetical to the welfare of corporations. If they'd let capitalism try and self-correct we'd probably have never managed to get out of the great depression.

what got "us" out of the Great Depression was the war. The rate of profit was only fully restored after the Second World War was over. The New Deal itself did not turn around the American economy. Between 1933-37 there was only a partial restoration of the profit rate. Then there was another recession. Libertarians like to say that the recession "proved" the inadequacy of state intervention, but arguably state intervention did not go far enough. In any case, their solution - wage cuts and a fall in prices - had already occurred. Wages and prices were falling from 1929 onward but this had done nothing. Indeed the problem had worsened.

[BAM]

The thing that sincere libertarians don't take into account is that economic power is also political power. They think there's some way you can just legislate that the wealthy will not hijack the state for their own gain. In fact they do and always have - the Non-Agression Principle is not something they believe in.

The non-aggression principle is violated first of all if you accept Marx's theory of value. If the source of profit, interest and rent is unpaid labour, if someone is worked for more marketable products than the equivalent they receive in payment for their subsistence, then this constitutes a massive violation of the principle! Needless to say, that's why we find libertarians the most vocal opponents of any labour theories of value. However, if you apply it properly, a subjective theory of value heads straight for the labour theory of value anyway. What is the measure of how much you "value" something if not the amount of effort you are prepared to put into getting it?

Also, libertarianism completely falls flat when you take externalities into account. This is confined not merely environmental externalities, but to the whole social context of wage-labour. Employers, if they choose not to employ, deny that portion of society the opportunity to work. Because wealth is created by natural resources plus labour, the wealth of the whole of society is curtailed. The libertarians' thesis that mutual trade is always beneficial is undermined by the fact that, by entrepreneurs not trading because it is not profitable for them, ie in terms of exchange-value, society at large misses out on the "multiplier effect" of productivity, in terms of use-values.