"Stooges" of the state

[Lyev]

This was something bought up by Sam_b in a discussion about the POU; purported stooges of the state. Apparently being part of the Prison Officers Union is something to be reproached with, not mentioned having the head of POU in your party (SPEW). Yet, if the police and prison officers are organs of the state, and if they're there to "defend the status quo", as BobKindles said, why aren't public-sector nurses and teachers considered in the same bracket? Some teachers, for example, have to teach that "Communism" was a failure, and that Lenin and Stalin were ruthless dictators; i.e. fundamentally, teachers teach capitalist propaganda. Or perhaps a nurse is put in charge of healing or sick or wounded soldiers returning from imperialist war. Surely these people are just "workers in uniform"; people that just have a job? For example, a comrade of mine who comes to branch meetings has the of making Apache helicopters, sent to Afghanistan to do capitalists bidding. This doesn't mean he is a die-hard capitalist; it's just his job, he needs to eat and pay the rent like the rest of us.

The quotes and whatnot below are what lead me to post this, they'll help put this into context.



My only disappointment is the continual courting of people such as the head of the Prison Officers Union, which I think is ridiculous.

What exactly do you mean by your last paragraph? What's wrong with the Prison Officers Union?
Because of the very nature of the job, I take the same line as most socialists take towards the police. I agree with Bob's analysis, which can be found here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...7&postcount=22 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1518077&postcount=22)

....The reason the SWP and other organizations on the left object to the SP's description of prison officers as "workers in uniform" and the decisions that flow from that description (such as letting Caton speak at Socialism alongside people like Mark Serwotka) is because prison officers are part of the capitalist state and are responsible for carrying out the decisions of the capitalist judicial system, and as such there is a qualitative difference between these individuals, and, for example, teachers, or nurses, even when they may share the same living standards. During the POA dispute in 2007 the SWP argued that prison officers should be allowed to go on strike and have a union, and we also pointed out that if prison officers were feeling confident enough to defy the government by taking illegal action then there is no reason why other public-sector workers should not do the same, but we also contended that because their role is to uphold the law and order of the bosses, prison workers are frequently pushed towards the most right-wing ideas, and many of them have a proven record of racism and violence. It is evident that whilst working people are punished when they threaten the interests of the bosses by occupying their factories or taking some other form of direct action, prison officers and other groups such as the police who share the same relation to the bourgeois state are able to impose themselves on others and commit acts of violence in defence of the capitalist system without being held accountable for their actions, especially when oppressed groups such as ethnic minorities and political activists are the targets, and this dynamic explains why it is that discrimination and the idea of a structured and regulated society have such an important role in the culture of these armed bodies of men, to take a phrase from Lenin, and why it is that prison officers cannot be considered allies in the class struggle, as I noted above.

[Sam_b]

being part of the Prison Officers Union is something to be reproached with, not mentioned having the head of POU in your party (SPEW)

Why do you have members of the Trade Union bureaucracy in your party anyway? These people are differ greatly from the aims and objectivs of the rank-and-file.


Yet, if the police and prison officers are organs of the state, and if they're there to "defend the status quo", as BobKindles said, why aren't public-sector nurses and teachers considered in the same bracket?

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. Teachers and nurses do not have at their disposal the use of coercion first off. How many nurses did we see breaking up the miner's strike with such sickening brutality?

I can't really add anything more than Bob's analysis, which I believe to be more or less correct.

[Lyev]

Why do you have members of the Trade Union bureaucracy in your party anyway? These people are differ greatly from the aims and objectivs of the rank-and-file.I can't say, as obviously I have nothing to do with who we do and don't recruit. His interests seem to be largely the same as every other leftists, from what I've seen and read about him. He's opposed to privatisation of prisons and opposed to New Labour; Here's an interview with him.
Interview with POA leader Brian Caton
Fighting for the right to strike

Socialist Party industrial organiser Bill Mullins recently interviewed Prison Officers Association (POA) general secretary Brian Caton. Brian has recently decided to join the Socialist Party, after being a member of the Labour Party for many years.

How did you get into the Prison Service?
I come from a family of nine. I was brought up in Barnsley, my Dad worked as a collier. I was always a rebel at school. In fact I've got a school report which says: "If Brian doesn't improve his behaviour he will end up in prison."

My Dad was a union official when he was 16 and active in the 1960s. He was a very principled man. I was in the army for 12½ years and I saw at first hand how devious governments of any colour can be.

My intention when I left the army was to be a probation officer. I was interviewed to be an assistant probation officer, then they scrapped those jobs. They offered me a job in a rehabilitation hostel for drug offenders and alcoholics. But I just couldn't live on the wage. I was living in a council house but I had one child and my wife was heavily pregnant.

I passed the entrance exams for the police, prison and fire services. And because I'd been at Wandsworth prison as a potential probation officer I thought I'd go there. I was a prison officer for 19 years from 1977. I started at Wandsworth and then went to Wakefield. I was on the POA national executive, then in 1996 I left the Prison Service to become an assistant secretary.

What do you think about the privatisation of prisons?
Britain is the current leader in the world in having private prisons. In fact, per head of population, Wales is the world leader in private prisons. All of these have been built in the last 20 years.

Most of the companies involved with running prisons have got very long contracts. The public sector was never allowed to bid for them, the Tories just privatised them.

Justice Minister Jack Straw said there would be a level playing field for the running of prisons but then he said he's opening private prisons that the public sector will not be allowed to bid for.

We are not even allowed to bid for the transportation of prisoners. Public servants used to do all of this work. The idea of Titan prisons - massive warehouses - was checked fully and was scrapped. But many Category C prisons have already got 1,500 prisoners, as big as Titans.

Straw is also pulling prisons together in clusters. The biggest travesty for us concerns Blakenhurst prison in the midlands, which we won back from the private sector. Straw clustered it with Hewell Grange and Brockhill prisons, which were close to it. Now it's come up for retendering. So the other two which have never been private are now involved in a compulsory tender. He said he wouldn't do that, once again misleading the POA.

Birmingham, one of the biggest prisons in the country, has been named for potential privatisation. There is quite an active POA branch there and they took action in August 2007. So the threat of privatisation is Straw having a kick-back at us.

What do you think of the government's 'modernisation' plans?
We're not opposed to modernisation but the modernisation they are putting forward is dangerous for prison staff, dangerous for prisoners and dangerous for society.

We had the biggest turnout in a ballot ever in our history that rejected that modernisation. We're not allowed to take lawful strike or industrial action, so we go to the negotiating table at a disadvantage. They listen to what we say and then they ignore it.

We rejected workforce 'modernisation' in a ballot and now they're trying to impose it on us. This is alongside pushing forwards this market testing and privatisation. So we are in conflict with them.

I've been fortunate in having Colin Moses to work with. He's one of the few elected black trade union leaders in the country. We're both socialists and have very strong trade union beliefs. We both believe in trade unions doing the job for the members.

How do you deal with members of far-right organisations like the BNP in the union?
We have thrown BNP members out of the union, about six people. We were able to get the Prison Service to say they would sack any prison officers who were known to be members of far right organisations. In order to achieve this we constantly bombarded the Prison Service with the fact that we'd thrown people out for being members of the BNP but they were keeping them employed as prison officers. We got the Prison Service to make a declaration that if they found anyone in those organisations they would sack them. This applies to everyone who works in the Prison Service. This is part of a motion at the TUC this year.

If you get sacked for being in the BNP, if you're a POA member we won't support you. We couldn't live with the thought of anyone with racist or fascist leanings having a key with a black person behind the door. We discussed it a lot and we decided to throw them out of the union. If we find any more we will throw them out. It's in the union rules.

Why did you leave the Labour Party?
I'm sick and tired of people saying that just because you're a prison officer you're right wing. I had three gold brooches for the amount of prison officers I have recruited to the Labour Party. I'm sad at having to leave the Labour Party but I couldn't stay in it with Jack Straw being politically dishonest to me.

I have respect for some Labour politicians and I have lots of friends in the Labour Party. Lots of my executive are still members of the Labour Party.
But being the general secretary of a union means you get face to face with people and you can ask questions that others can't. I asked questions and got waffle when I expected to be treated with respect and given honest answers.

I left a meeting at our conference with Jack Straw and made a presentation to him of a decanter from the POA to say thank you for coming to the conference. I also gave him a book entitled The Right To Strike and I said: "I've got you a third gift. You can have my Labour Party card after being a Labour Party member for 40-odd years."

I got a standing ovation. He asked me what I was going to do now politically. I said I'll join the workers' party. He did say that his father had been locked up for being a conscientious objector. I asked him what the founding fathers of the Labour Party would think of him now - fighting illegal wars and privatising prisons. I got a standing ovation for that as well.

What's happening now in the Prison Service?
From 1 September they're bringing in prison officers at £14,000 a year - £6,000 less than the proper rate. This will mean conflict. We've taken them to arbitration but it's all on the back of our members refusing the modernisation.

They want to scrap the principal officer grade and run prisons with people in suits. We're not up for modernisation if it means cost cutting, cutting our wages and conditions, and the conditions for prisoners. If prison officers can't rehabilitate, all they can do is confine. That looks like what they really want us to do.

When we send those prisoners back into society under those circumstances, they will rape, rob and murder again. If we can't attempt to rehabilitate them or tackle their mental health problems, drug or alcohol problems then we're wasting our time sending them to prison.

We've said let's have an integrated system where prison officers and probation officers work together. Where non-custodial sentences deliver the same programmes as in the prisons but out in the community. But we can't do that with overcrowded prisons, filling them up with people who are mentally ill.

These things are part of the POA's policies. We argued these points with Labour in opposition. They said they would talk to us when they got into power but 12 years later they haven't done anything.

Cameron's lot will cause a massive increase in crime. They will lock people up for longer, try to cut the prison budget and privatise.

One of the things about the day's strike that we took was that we said: "You push us too far and we'll strike." No law will stop working people saying I will withhold my labour.

My members don't want to break laws but we don't want bad laws either. I'll be arguing at the TUC that for any union to be able to bargain properly with the employers, the union membership must be able to withdraw their labour. (I put the italics in, for something else later.) To add, on £14,000 a year (see article), I think it's slightly unfair to call Caton a bureaucrat.

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. Teachers and nurses do not have at their disposal the use of coercion first off. How many nurses did we see breaking up the miner's strike with such sickening brutality? For me, it's not really to do with the "coercion" that a certain profession has at their disposal. It's their power relations and their relations to the means of production, and how they serve the state. Also, breaking up strikes is obviously not the only way someone can serve the state. As I said, teachers teach what is fundamentally capitalist propaganda. Do you deny that? Having looked back at it though, perhaps the nurse idea was a tad tenuous.


I can't really add anything more than Bob's analysis, which I believe to be more or less correct.I'm fairly sure Bob's analysis mentioned something about Prison Officers being inherently racist. Bearing in mind the part of the interview I put in italics, do you really think a racist would kick 6 BNP members out of his union?

Anyway, for me this debate is similar to a discussion of boycotts on such products as Nestle, Nike, Coca-Cola etc. because these corporations are wholly capitalist. They have gotten away with someterrible things. However, under capitalism you simply have to buy these products because that's all there is. People have to eat, wear, drink and buy these products as a necessity, to survive. This is comparable Caton and his job as a prison officer. Should he give up his job, and forgo feeding his family, till capitalism is overthrown?

[Sam_b]

I can't say, as obviously I have nothing to do with who we do and don't recruit. His interests seem to be largely the same as every other leftists, from what I've seen and read about him. He's opposed to privatisation of prisons and opposed to New Labour; Here's an interview with him.

You are a member of the CWI, correct? So what is this tiered nonsense that you have 'nothing to do' with recruitment? Despite all my (numerous) criticisms of the SPEW, at least they are still a relatively democratic organisation where members can have a say, and I believe internally some members are deeply upset at prison officer bureaucrats being welcomed with open arms into the party. As a member, please justify why you think its appropriate to have members of the trade union bureaucracy in your party.

As for the interview itself, I'm not overtly bothered about reading it all. It might strike you to realise that many cops and leaders in the police officers association are distrustful of privatisation and New Labour as well. Does that mean you support the police, the coercive arm of the state, being involved with SPEW? Just because members of the BNP have been expelled fom the prison officers union, and indeed from the police, does not stop these organisations from being institutionally racist.


For me, it's not really to do with the "coercion" that a certain profession has at their disposal. It's their power relations and their relations to the means of production, and how they serve the state. Also, breaking up strikes is obviously not the only way someone can serve the state. As I said, teachers teach what is fundamentally capitalist propaganda. Do you deny that? Having looked back at it though, perhaps the nurse idea was a tad tenuous

But then where does the buck stop? I should probably add that this teaching 'capitalist propaganda' line which is peddled by (mainly) young adolescents on revleft is getting a bit tired, especially when being used in comparitive analyses. I wouldn't particularly want responsibility for education of the cause being put in the hands of an institutionalised classroom, so what do you meaningfully acheive by waving this line about? In reality, not much. As leftists it is our duty to be on the streets raising ideas of class consciousness, so this has little to do with us or the point at hand here.

So, going back to the first line, where does the buck stop? Is a nurse explicitly and tactically aiding the state, or changing class allegiances by giving medical assistance in a state-organised health service? The answer, in case anyone was missing it, is no. The point of the matter is that the police, and their jailkeepers in the prison officers, aid the state implicitly by being involved directly in the crushing and undermining of working class movements - if not on strikes, then on demos, and have a proven and consistent track record of being inherently racist institutions.


I'm fairly sure Bob's analysis mentioned something about Prison Officers being inherently racist. Bearing in mind the part of the interview I put in italics, do you really think a racist would kick 6 BNP members out of his union?


I'm sorry, expropriate, but your argument again is simplistic bordering on the naive. David Cameron and Gordon Brown have both roundly condemned the BNP in the past. Does this mean that they cannot have racist policies, like supporting dawn raids on asylum seekers, criminalise immigrants, be responsible over police forces that have murdered black suspects in custody, have aggressively pursued human rights abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan?

This is nothing at all like arguments over boycott for the simple reason that it is impossible to boycott the capitalist system. Workers in a factory do not change their class allegiances by working for the minimum wage to secure what little money they can get during the jobs massacre. To be honest I find it offensive that you would compare such workers to that of a Trade Union bureaucrat on a significantly higher wage than the average working class person.

Is your line really suggesting that working class people should join the ranks of the organised state if they cannot find employment?

[Lyev]

You are a member of the CWI, correct? So what is this tiered nonsense that you have 'nothing to do' with recruitment? Despite all my (numerous) criticisms of the SPEW, at least they are still a relatively democratic organisation where members can have a say, and I believe internally some members are deeply upset at prison officer bureaucrats being welcomed with open arms into the party. As a member, please justify why you think its appropriate to have members of the trade union bureaucracy in your party.What I meant by this is I am a relatively new member of SPEW, and therefore the CWI, and Caton has been part of our organisation for quite a while now - not sure how long exactly. I am still getting to grips with all the gripes and criticisms (and there seems to be a lot!) that people have against my organisation. Firstly, before I try and "justify" having a prison officer "bureaucrat", can you tell me why he's a bureaucrat? Is there any proof for this? Or did you not see the part of previous post where I said he was on roughly £14,000 a year, at least as far as I know. By the way, there isn't even a SWP branch close enough for me to join, on a subsidiary point.

As for the interview itself, I'm not overtly bothered about reading it all. It might strike you to realise that many cops and leaders in the police officers association are distrustful of privatisation and New Labour as well. Does that mean you support the police, the coercive arm of the state, being involved with SPEW? Just because members of the BNP have been expelled fom the prison officers union, and indeed from the police, does not stop these organisations from being institutionally racist.So now are you calling Caton a racist, despite you having no proof? Out of the two choices, the first one being your evidence, i.e. none, and my evidence, which is an interview where Caton clearly says that he will kick out anyone with "racist or fascist leanings". So, until you provide anything more conclusive, he isn't a racist. As for every other prison officer in the UK, I don't know I can't say. Or are you saying that it's because of the very institution itself that prison officers are racist? If so, please could you elaborate on this idea a bit more?


So, going back to the first line, where does the buck stop? Is a nurse explicitly and tactically aiding the state, or changing class allegiances by giving medical assistance in a state-organised health service? The answer, in case anyone was missing it, is no. The point of the matter is that the police, and their jailkeepers in the prison officers, aid the state implicitly by being involved directly in the crushing and undermining of working class movements - if not on strikes, then on demos, and have a proven and consistent track record of being inherently racist institutions.How do prison officers crush and undermine strikes? I was not aware that was part of the job. I am not defending police, and I think they're slightly different to prison officers, but where's the proof that either are "inherently racist"? This might be something that I'm totally missing out on.

I'm sorry, expropriate, but your argument again is simplistic bordering on the naive. David Cameron and Gordon Brown have both roundly condemned the BNP in the past. Does this mean that they cannot have racist policies, like supporting dawn raids on asylum seekers, criminalise immigrants, be responsible over police forces that have murdered black suspects in custody, have aggressively pursued human rights abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan?Again, I don't see any proof that Mr Caton is racist.


This is nothing at all like arguments over boycott for the simple reason that it is impossible to boycott the capitalist system. Workers in a factory do not change their class allegiances by working for the minimum wage to secure what little money they can get during the jobs massacre. To be honest I find it offensive that you would compare such workers to that of a Trade Union bureaucrat on a significantly higher wage than the average working class person.Please could you elaborate on this bureaucrat argument? I'm fairly sure I said Brian, and most other prison officers, are on £14,000, which I'm fairly sure is slightly lower the average wage of a worker in the UK. Unless he gets paid lots because of his position in the trade union? Is there something here that I'm missing?


Is your line really suggesting that working class people should join the ranks of the organised state if they cannot find employment?No, I am saying if people are already in a job and they have a family to clothe and feed then there's not a wealth of choice. Don't twist my words. And actually, for a lot of people our sort of age coming out of school, it seems the choices aren't great:

(1) crime & prison
(2) unemployment
(3) or the army

Which would you choose? Also, please could you just clarify exactly why prison officers serve as organs of the state, and why every other public service job doesn't? Thanks for your replies so far.

[Lyev]

By the way, anyone else, feel free to come in with a point or two if they want; this isn't just mine and Sam's discussion.

[Sam_b]

What I meant by this is I am a relatively new member of SPEW, and therefore the CWI, and Caton has been part of our organisation for quite a while now - not sure how long exactly. I am still getting to grips with all the gripes and criticisms (and there seems to be a lot!) that people have against my organisation. Firstly, before I try and "justify" having a prison officer "bureaucrat", can you tell me why he's a bureaucrat? Is there any proof for this? Or did you not see the part of previous post where I said he was on roughly £14,000 a year, at least as far as I know. By the way, there isn't even a SWP branch close enough for me to join, on a subsidiary point.

The leader of the POA is on £14,000 a year? Allow me to be ridiculously skeptical at this. Even the article you cited says this is lower than the wage of prison officers right now! Leaders of unions and trade associations are separated from the rank-and-file in its aims, Prentice in UNISON is a prime example of this.

Why should you not be building links with such people is highlight again by bob here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1597670&postcount=1 - its truly shocking.


So now are you calling Caton a racist, despite you having no proof? Out of the two choices, the first one being your evidence, i.e. none, and my evidence, which is an interview where Caton clearly says that he will kick out anyone with "racist or fascist leanings". So, until you provide anything more conclusive, he isn't a racist. As for every other prison officer in the UK, I don't know I can't say. Or are you saying that it's because of the very institution itself that prison officers are racist? If so, please could you elaborate on this idea a bit more?

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but this is so fucking stupid it defies sense. Please show where I called Caton a racist. It seems you have absolutely no clue about the term 'institutionally racist' - that the service itself is inherently racist. This does not mean, SURPRISE SURPRISE! - that each and every member is racist. To be honest, I shouldn't have to tell you that the prison service has a legacy of racism and discrimination. The fact that Caton had to kick out six BNP members is an inherent trend of the profession itself, and again I'll refer you to Bob's posts, both previously and above, to show that the POA and prison officers is not just your average profession. Again, it only takes several clicks on this website and others which show the amount of murders in custody by both officers and police.


How do prison officers crush and undermine strikes? I was not aware that was part of the job. I am not defending police, and I think they're slightly different to prison officers, but where's the proof that either are "inherently racist"? This might be something that I'm totally missing out on.


Because they are the arm of the state with the legitimate use of coercion. This is a relatively simple concept. Take the treatment of Republican prisoners in Northern Ireland up until today.


Again, I don't see any proof that Mr Caton is racist.


I didn't say he was. Whats your point, caller?


Unless he gets paid lots because of his position in the trade union?

Bingo. Also, see Bobs post above.


Which would you choose?

I'd choose getting organised and onto the streets. Your argument in effect is blaming the left for saying people shouldn't join the police or the army. The problem here is the jobs massacre of Labour and the Tories.


Also, please could you just clarify exactly why prison officers serve as organs of the state, and why every other public service job doesn't?

I've explained several times now, I don't see why I should again.

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. Teachers and nurses do not have at their disposal the use of coercion first off. How many nurses did we see breaking up the miner's strike with such sickening brutality?

Search for an older thread in Learning about the nature of the Police, also Jacob Richter's thread (I think, or at least his comments) on how prison workers are not proletarians. To be frank, it seems that you'e answered nothing and instead focused on me apparently calling Caton a racist, which I did not.

[Sam_b]

Comrade Alastair sums it up well:


The very nature of work as a prison guard, as with the police, affects the character and outlook of the people who perform the job. It's a job which is at it's core about domination, the subjugation of man by man, enforcing oppressive power imbalances and denying people their freedoms. It's a job where you wander the halls of your fiefdom with weapons in hand, feeling (and needing to feel if you want to keep going) superior, above the people your charged with keeping in line. A job based on power imbalances, authoritarianism, treating grown adults like children, a job based on denying freedoms and enforcing misery.

A prison guard is an enforcer of the capitalist (in)justice system. If prisoners riot demanding better conditions or even for general political demands, the guards role is to crush them. Racism and all kinds of abuse are endemic amongst prison guards. Black and aboriginal deaths in custody are a massive problem in country after country.

The man who leads the union for these thugs is not a comrade of mine, and frankly anyone who considers him to be a 'comrade' of theirs isn't my comrade either