Gallop Poll 36% of Americans view Socialism Positively

[chegitz guevara]

http://www.gallup.com/poll/125645/Socialism-Viewed-Positively-Americans.aspx

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/-hg_cxvgaugmwblhj7jpyg.gif


Exactly how Americans define "socialism" or what exactly they think of when they hear the word is not known. The research simply measures Americans' reactions when a survey interviewer reads the word to them -- an exercise that helps shed light on connotations associated with this frequently used term.

Up from 20% in last year's Rasmussen Poll.

[Robocommie]

Beautiful. Let's keep it up. Even if they're associating social democracy with socialism, it's a gain, because I think workplace democracy is the easiest selling point of socialism.

[chegitz guevara]

We need to keep in mind that 86% of people in the poll responded positively to "free enterprise."

But it's a foot back in the door. We're no longer fringe crazies.

[Robocommie]

We need to keep in mind that 86% of people in the poll responded positively to "free enterprise."

But it's a foot back in the door. We're no longer fringe crazies.

I don't know if we can say we're mainstream yet, but certainly the word socialism is not a cuss word. And you know these bank bailouts and billions in bonuses to people who fucked up their jobs is giving me an incredible vehicle to talk about socialism to anyone I may meet.

It's funny, because the conservatives started accusing Obama of socialism, THEY are responsible for dragging socialism back into the political limelight.

[Endomorphian]

We need to keep in mind that 86% of people in the poll responded positively to "free enterprise."

But it's a foot back in the door. We're no longer fringe crazies.

The two are only contradictory in the minds of authoritarians.

[Robocommie]

The two are only contradictory in the minds of authoritarians.

Depending on what you define as free enterprise. Is it a free market? Because that's a problem.

[Agnapostate]

Beautiful. Let's keep it up. Even if they're associating social democracy with socialism, it's a gain, because I think workplace democracy is the easiest selling point of socialism.

It is association with social democracy, and more than that, with any form of interventionism in the capitalist economy, since ignorant liberals join extreme rightists in describing public roads and infrastructure as "socialist." But then again, I expect socialism would still draw substantial support if it was properly understood as public ownership and management of the means of production, with workplace democracy being a necessary condition.


We need to keep in mind that 86% of people in the poll responded positively to "free enterprise."

I respond well enough to free enterprise too, which I consider fundamentally at odds with the authoritarian and alienating nature of capitalism. That just goes to show of what little use some of these polls are without accurate definitions, though the above caveat is there too.

[Robocommie]

It is association with social democracy, and more than that, with any form of interventionism in the capitalist economy, since ignorant liberals join extreme rightists in describing public roads and infrastructure as "socialist." But then again, I expect socialism would still draw substantial support if it was properly understood as public ownership and management of the means of production, with workplace democracy being a necessary condition.

You shouldn't be so certain that it's merely government intervention in the economy and public infrastructure. For one, public infrastructure is something that everyone believes in except Anarcho-Capitalists - most conservatives think government should pick up the garbage, deliver the mail and build roads.

And secondly, if you do assume that everyone who gave a positive response in this poll did so only because of social democracy, you're assuming all Americans are kind of stupid.

I guess the long and short of it is, this poll does not really help us understand just what they're envisioning as socialism, just as the poll itself states, but I think it's very encouraging because after the Reagan years, any positive response to the word "socialism" is a sure comfort for us leftists. Remember that this is the country that has drawn a lot of it's political identity as being the guardians of freedom, democracy, and capitalism.

[bailey_187]

The two are only contradictory in the minds of authoritarians.

dont be pedantic, we all what they mean by "free enterprise"

[Die Rote Fahne]

And only 36% of that 36% know what socialism is.

[x371322]

And only 36% of that 36% know what socialism is.

This would be my concern. Most Americans, even those who like socialism, thinks it's "what Sweden or Norway has." Don't get me wrong, at least it's a foot in the door. At least they're open to the idea of Socialism, just a somewhat misguided view of what it really is. But that's okay. What we need is further education on the subject.

[x371322]

And am I reading that graph right? 17% of republicans, and 20% of conservatives view Socialism positively? Didn't see that one coming. Those numbers are higher than I would've thought.

[Proletarian Ultra]

I will get reamed for saying this, but thank God for Obama.

[Robocommie]

i will get reamed for saying this, but thank god for obama.

Get him guys!

;)

[Revy]

And only 36% of that 36% know what socialism is.

We don't need to have this elitist attitude. 36% think socialism is good. Let's work with that and reach out to them instead of screaming at them for being ignorant. I'm sure you weren't born a revolutionary.

[robbo203]

We don't need to have this elitist attitude. 36% think socialism is good. Let's work with that and reach out to them instead of screaming at them for being ignorant. I'm sure you weren't born a revolutionary.

Well hold on here - its a fair point. What do people mean by "socialism" when they are asked what their attitude to it is? If as, I suspect , the great majority identify socialism with the state taking on a greater role in society and the economy then there is not much comfort in that. All that means is more people favour the idea of a more regulated capitalist system. But its got bugger all to do with genuine socialism.

[Robocommie]

Well hold on here - its a fair point. What do people mean by "socialism" when they are asked what their attitude to it is? If as, I suspect , the great majority identify socialism with the state taking on a greater role in society and the economy then there is not much comfort in that. All that means is more people favour the idea of a more regulated capitalist system. But its got bugger all to do with genuine socialism.

On the contrary, if people are comfortable with the idea of public intervention in economics, that paves the way for other things - like socialist development initiatives, in line with the theory of productive forces, and all that.

[mykittyhasaboner]

And only 36% of that 36% know what socialism is.

Uh, is that your interpretation of 'socialism' then? I don't think it's fair to make a far-fetched statement like this. Sure, many people who thought of the word "socialism" as something else other than a post-revolutionary society took part in this, but perhaps there was a considerable amount of people who actually know a thing or two about working class politics--or perhaps even people who think for themselves and research political positions further than simply swallowing corporate media?



But its got bugger all to do with genuine socialism.I think this is what THC meant by elitist. At least that's what I think it is. The point was to see the connotations people get from the word socialism, when asked if they view "socialism" positively or negatively. The fact that 36% of the people polled think of "socialism" positively, whatever that in fact actually means for each person, is something to look on with respect, especially because it's an improvement from previous polls.

Besides, what do you expect? People are not going to be polled on "genuine socialism" vs "non-genuine socialism"--because to most people such a perception of politics does not exist. If you intend to prove what "genuine socialism" is so much, you should be glad that more people in the US view some kind of idea of socialism positively.

[robbo203]

On the contrary, if people are comfortable with the idea of public intervention in economics, that paves the way for other things - like socialist development initiatives, in line with the theory of productive forces, and all that.

These are weazel words. "Public intervention" means state intervention and as Freddy Engels quite rightly pointed out the modern state is nothing but a capitalist state. State capitalism does not lead to socialism. State capitalism simply leave us with state capitalism. I reject your public/state interventions as much as I do the so called free market. Its got sod all to do with socialism.

[robbo203]

I think this is what THC meant by elitist. At least that's what I think it is. The point was to see the connotations people get from the word socialism, when asked if they view "socialism" positively or negatively. The fact that 36% of the people polled think of "socialism" positively, whatever that in fact actually means for each person, is something to look on with respect, especially because it's an improvement from previous polls..

Why? Why is it an improivement unless you think that more people thinking the capitalist state should play a bigger a role is a good thing for socialists. I dont. Respect has got nothing to do with it. I respect their right to an opinion but I dont agree with their opinion



Besides, what do you expect? People are not going to be polled on "genuine socialism" vs "non-genuine socialism"--because to most people such a perception of politics does not exist. If you intend to prove what "genuine socialism" is so much, you should be glad that more people in the US view some kind of idea of socialism positively.

But it is not a "kind of idea of socialism" and whats more it is this constant misassociation of socialism with the state that actually holds back socialism and the growth of genuine socialist ideas. Cant you see this?

[Die Rote Fahne]

Uh, is that your interpretation of 'socialism' then? I don't think it's fair to make a far-fetched statement like this. Sure, many people who thought of the word "socialism" as something else other than a post-revolutionary society took part in this, but perhaps there was a considerable amount of people who actually know a thing or two about working class politics--or perhaps even people who think for themselves and research political positions further than simply swallowing corporate media?

I think this is what THC meant by elitist. At least that's what I think it is. The point was to see the connotations people get from the word socialism, when asked if they view "socialism" positively or negatively. The fact that 36% of the people polled think of "socialism" positively, whatever that in fact actually means for each person, is something to look on with respect, especially because it's an improvement from previous polls.

Besides, what do you expect? People are not going to be polled on "genuine socialism" vs "non-genuine socialism"--because to most people such a perception of politics does not exist. If you intend to prove what "genuine socialism" is so much, you should be glad that more people in the US view some kind of idea of socialism positively.


If you honestly think the moderate American view of socialism is NOT that of social democracy like the Nordic nations, then I'm sorry, you're a fool.

[Obrero Rebelde]

I would agree that the totalitarian socialist state, state control permeating every fiber of life in the country, that scares the living shit out of people, including those who would ordinarily think, generally, that socialism is okay.

North Korea, I think, puts the worst possible spin on socialism and communism. Their "Leader" comes off like the picture of pure evil. I've seen very little that is positive said or portrayed about that regime.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Why? Why is it an improivement unless you think that more people thinking the capitalist state should play a bigger a role is a good thing for socialists. I dont. Respect has got nothing to do with it. I respect their right to an opinion but I dont agree with their opinion

Well your absolutely right that you don't have to agree with their opinion, but first you have to know what their opinion is. The poll did not ask people: do you think "the capitalist state should play a bigger a role" in society? It asked "Just off the top of your head, do you have a positive or negative image of "socialism"?




But it is not a "kind of idea of socialism" and whats more it is this constant misassociation of socialism with the state that actually holds back socialism and the growth of genuine socialist ideas. Cant you see this?No because you have no proof which proves the 36% of people who were polled had this kind of perception of "socialism". You don't know what kind of perception they had, that was not the point of the poll.

[Robocommie]

These are weazel words. "Public intervention" means state intervention and as Freddy Engels quite rightly pointed out the modern state is nothing but a capitalist state. State capitalism does not lead to socialism. State capitalism simply leave us with state capitalism. I reject your public/state interventions as much as I do the so called free market. Its got sod all to do with socialism.

Ah, so eager to puff up your chest and make a bold stand against this or that, are we? Well, I reject your huff and bravado without knowing a little more about what you feel socialism is.

[Robocommie]

If you honestly think the moderate American view of socialism is NOT that of social democracy like the Nordic nations, then I'm sorry, you're a fool.

Look man, they're not true socialists, but the Nordic nations have the highest human development levels in the world, they must be at least doing some things right. I mean, it's a place to work from.

[Delenda Carthago]

What I like very much about USA communists and soscialists is that they dont have the images of CCCP.So if socialism rise up in USA,it could be something more pure and real.Plus,USA has the ability to really take the step to real socialism:it has all the wealth and the technology to abolish the system of work from peoples obligation and really make it productive.

[Obrero Rebelde]

AttackGR, thanks! That is very reassuring to hear.

[mykittyhasaboner]

If you honestly think the moderate American view of socialism is NOT that of social democracy like the Nordic nations, then I'm sorry, you're a fool.

It would seem your being foolish here, because the moderate American view of socialism does not exist in any static or uniform manner. There is no general moderate consensus in the US on what "socialism" is or how it is viewed. The image of "social-democracy" does in fact get tied with "socialism" a lot but that is not the point, because so does the Soviet Union and other (former) socialist states. Besides, the idea of socialism varies greatly between people of different classes--shouldn't you know this? Fool?

If the poll specified what social class the people polled actually fit in to we could get a better idea of the results. It's not like this poll determines what people generally think and believe about socialism anyways. It's just a poll that interviewed 972 people.

[robbo203]

Well your absolutely right that you don't have to agree with their opinion, but first you have to know what their opinion is. The poll did not ask people: do you think "the capitalist state should play a bigger a role" in society? It asked "Just off the top of your head, do you have a positive or negative image of "socialism"?

Yes I completely realise that but I am sayiing this is not necessarily good news insofar as people's perception of "socialism" might have nothing to do with socialism as I understand the term and that they simply mean by this the capitalist state playing a bigger role in society. You might think this is a good thing and that it has some tenuous bearing on socialism. I dont




No because you have no proof which proves the 36% of people who were polled had this kind of perception of "socialism". You don't know what kind of perception they had, that was not the point of the poll.

Come now. While its true I dont possess direct evidence that this is the primary perception people might have of socialism, I think it is pretty likely to be the case, dont you think? I mean come on - there are plenty of people in the US who think even a capitalist politician like Obama is a socialist. Ask yourself why and what this means in terms of their perception of "socialism". I think the answer is pretty clear

[mykittyhasaboner]

Yes I completely realise that but I am sayiing this is not necessarily good news insofar as people's perception of "socialism" might have nothing to do with socialism as I understand the term and that they simply mean by this the capitalist state playing a bigger role in society. You might think this is a good thing and that it has some tenuous bearing on socialism. I dont

I don't think it's good if people associate the term "socialism" with the capitalist state's role either, obviously, and it is certainly likely that many people who viewed "socialism" as "positive" had this kind of perception of "socialism".

The reason why it may be 'good news' is because the number of people who view "socialism" positively may be increasing, and it does not take much effort to see why that is pleasing to some here. It is beside the point to say that such a poll means fuck all for actual socialists fighting for revolution or how revolutionary politics is viewed by the general public, just because "socialism" isn't defined how you would like it to be. In fact it isn't defined at all. The point is if the poll is objectively accurate, then the connotations people get from the word socialism have qualitatively improved, albeit not by much. Do you understand that even a slight improvement like this initself is at least a breath of optimism for comrades in the US for the sake of the workers and their practically irrelevant movement?


Come now. While its true I dont possess direct evidence that this is the primary perception people might have of socialism, I think it is pretty likely to be the case, dont you think?Certainly, but you don't seem to understand that if more and more people are behind some idea of socialism, that it provides a better position for communists to propagate actual revolutionary politics, and for workers to at least take a step towards class consciousness in the process?

It's just a poll not a party programme or manifesto.


I mean come on - there are plenty of people in the US who think even a capitalist politician like Obama is a socialist.Not people who view him positively, so why would it matter for those who answered "positive"?


Ask yourself why and what this means in terms of their perception of "socialism". I think the answer is pretty clearNot really, because all we have to go on are assumptions. I think clarity requires more than that.

[Robocommie]

Come now. While its true I dont possess direct evidence that this is the primary perception people might have of socialism, I think it is pretty likely to be the case, dont you think? I mean come on - there are plenty of people in the US who think even a capitalist politician like Obama is a socialist. Ask yourself why and what this means in terms of their perception of "socialism". I think the answer is pretty clear

I have never heard ANY American call Obama a socialist unless they didn't like him. Every pro-Obama American I have ever met was a centrist or a liberal. Just because right-wing reactionaries see everything left of center as being socialism, doesn't mean every single American feels that way.

Do you think the average American working man is stupid or something?

[Agnapostate]

Depending on what you define as free enterprise. Is it a free market? Because that's a problem.

Is it? Socialism harnesses the free market where capitalism cannot, facilitating competitive enterprise by removing the concentration and barriers to entry that characterize the capitalist economy. I'm not a market socialist myself, but I can acknowledge that the free market requires socialism.


dont be pedantic, we all what they mean by "free enterprise"

We do, but that's no more reason to cede usage of the term to them any more than we would with "National Socialism." The authoritarian nature of the capitalist labor market is hardly an approximation of "free enterprise," and that should be made clear. You can make leaps and bounds by "stealing" your opponents' terminology.


You shouldn't be so certain that it's merely government intervention in the economy and public infrastructure. For one, public infrastructure is something that everyone believes in except Anarcho-Capitalists - most conservatives think government should pick up the garbage, deliver the mail and build roads.

They do, and there are many liberals that point out that this is "contradictory" for "anti-socialists," since they believe that any form of substantial government intervention in the economy constitutes "socialism."


And secondly, if you do assume that everyone who gave a positive response in this poll did so only because of social democracy, you're assuming all Americans are kind of stupid.

It's not a matter of "stupidity," but of the ignorance of political economy that all of us once suffered from, many of us quite recently. But then again, I didn't claim that "everyone" gave a positive response "only" because of social democracy; I claimed that a significant number probably offered a positive response because of their belief that social democracy, and even less drastic measures than that, constitute "socialism."


I guess the long and short of it is, this poll does not really help us understand just what they're envisioning as socialism, just as the poll itself states, but I think it's very encouraging because after the Reagan years, any positive response to the word "socialism" is a sure comfort for us leftists. Remember that this is the country that has drawn a lot of it's political identity as being the guardians of freedom, democracy, and capitalism.

I suppose.


Ah, so eager to puff up your chest and make a bold stand against this or that, are we? Well, I reject your huff and bravado without knowing a little more about what you feel socialism is.

The majority of people here have a shared definition of socialism: the public ownership and management of the means of production and distribution. Different tendencies see different engines for the accomplishment of that end, be it the state, workers' syndicates, community unions, etc., and plenty deny that the other tendencies are socialists, which I suppose is the relevant point, but social democrats are certainly excluded by any reasonable definition.


Look man, they're not true socialists, but the Nordic nations have the highest human development levels in the world, they must be at least doing some things right. I mean, it's a place to work from.

It's not a matter of them not being "true socialists." It's a matter of them not being socialists at all. While social democracy is superficially preferable to more rightist variants of capitalism, a greater role of the state in the capitalist economy means a greater provision of macroeconomic stabilization to that economy, which means that capitalism is sustained in the long run. Now granted, perhaps social democrats have the sort of mindset that's conducive to conversion to socialism, but their actual program could stall its implementation for decades.

I'm not even emphatically disagreeing with you as I actually believe that social democracy probably lies along the road to socialism in politically stable Western countries. I'm just providing some alternate perspectives that we should always consider.

[robbo203]

I don't think it's good if people associate the term "socialism" with the capitalist state's role either, obviously, and it is certainly likely that many people who viewed "socialism" as "positive" had this kind of perception of "socialism".

The reason why it may be 'good news' is because the number of people who view "socialism" positively may be increasing, and it does not take much effort to see why that is pleasing to some here. It is beside the point to say that such a poll means fuck all for actual socialists fighting for revolution or how revolutionary politics is viewed by the general public, just because "socialism" isn't defined how you would like it to be. In fact it isn't defined at all. The point is if the poll is objectively accurate, then the connotations people get from the word socialism have qualitatively improved, albeit not by much. Do you understand that even a slight improvement like this initself is at least a breath of optimism for comrades in the US for the sake of the workers and their practically irrelevant movement?

Certainly, but you don't seem to understand that if more and more people are behind some idea of socialism, that it provides a better position for communists to propagate actual revolutionary politics, and for workers to at least take a step towards class consciousness in the process?

.

Well no not really. It could simply be a case of one step forward but two steps back. See, you are missing the point. If people think that socialism means a bigger role for the capitalist state in society (and you seem to agree with me that by and large this is what most people think "socialism" is and that it is regretable that they do) this actually makes it harder, not easier, for socialists to put across the case for genuine socialism.

Firstly, we ve got to go through all the rigmarole of explaining to fellow workers that what they might think is socialism (a bigger role for the capitalist state) is not socialism at all. This is tedious enough and a lot more difficult than if they had no idea of what socialism meant at all


Secondly, when the capitalist state does get more involved in society with all the adverse repercussions this will tend to have for the working class, then you will have the inevitable response that - "we had socialism and it sucks". Workers will not be interested in any version of "socialism" including of course what I understand to be genuine socialism (as opposed to state capitalism). There will also be the problem of guilt by association. Somehow, you can bet your last bottom dollar, you will be held responsible for encouraging the sort of ideas and forstering the kind of climate in which the capitalist state feels prompted to flex its muscles more. However much you may protest that this is not the case, that you have consistently rejected the idea of nationalisation , that the Soviet Union et al were not socialist but state capitalist, they will still not quite fully believe you. Shit sticks as the saying goes and this applies to ideas as well and the associations they elicit.

[robbo203]

I have never heard ANY American call Obama a socialist unless they didn't like him. Every pro-Obama American I have ever met was a centrist or a liberal. Just because right-wing reactionaries see everything left of center as being socialism, doesn't mean every single American feels that way.

Do you think the average American working man is stupid or something?

No I dont but whats your point? You still have to win over the right wing reactionaries as you call them to make any headway. Not only that, many of those who are not right wing reactionaries have a conception of "socialism" which is really just state capitalism and it is not only the right wing reactionaries that are misinformed in this respect

[Robocommie]

No I dont but whats your point? You still have to win over the right wing reactionaries as you call them to make any headway. Not only that, many of those who are not right wing reactionaries have a conception of "socialism" which is really just state capitalism and it is not only the right wing reactionaries that are misinformed in this respect

You honestly feel we need to win over the reactionaries for a revolution?

[Die Rote Fahne]

Look man, they're not true socialists, but the Nordic nations have the highest human development levels in the world, they must be at least doing some things right. I mean, it's a place to work from.

Social Democracy is still capitalism.

Sure, Social Democracy is better for the worker than american capitalism or the free market, but it is still CAPITALISM, and it goes against what real socialists believe.

I'm not gonna sit here and defend the idea that socialism is = social democracy. Because that's saying socialism = capitalism.

[Robocommie]

Is it? Socialism harnesses the free market where capitalism cannot, facilitating competitive enterprise by removing the concentration and barriers to entry that characterize the capitalist economy. I'm not a market socialist myself, but I can acknowledge that the free market requires socialism.

Except, this is a contradiction. You can't "harness" the free market, without it losing its "free" character. Furthermore, the practice of competitive enterprise, by itself, without a set of regulations and interventions by society at large lends itself to capitalist accumulation, because whenever firms compete in the market, one has to win at the expense of all others. And I'm actually saying this AS a market socialist.

You cannot have a market economy that does not turn into capitalism without some kind of central planning, and central planning excludes a free market by definition.



It's not a matter of "stupidity," but of the ignorance of political economy that all of us once suffered from, many of us quite recently. But then again, I didn't claim that "everyone" gave a positive response "only" because of social democracy; I claimed that a significant number probably offered a positive response because of their belief that social democracy, and even less drastic measures than that, constitute "socialism."

But we really have no way of knowing that. And you have no evidence to support that claim, merely your assumptions of what most people think socialism is.


I suppose.

I don't think there's much supposing to it, this is the country that made the movie "Red Dawn" and is still very much in love with the pioneering spirit of the lone, individual settler.



The majority of people here have a shared definition of socialism: the public ownership and management of the means of production and distribution. Different tendencies see different engines for the accomplishment of that end, be it the state, workers' syndicates, community unions, etc., and plenty deny that the other tendencies are socialists, which I suppose is the relevant point, but social democrats are certainly excluded by any reasonable definition.



It's not a matter of them not being "true socialists." It's a matter of them not being socialists at all. While social democracy is superficially preferable to more rightist variants of capitalism, a greater role of the state in the capitalist economy means a greater provision of macroeconomic stabilization to that economy, which means that capitalism is sustained in the long run. Now granted, perhaps social democrats have the sort of mindset that's conducive to conversion to socialism, but their actual program could stall its implementation for decades.

You see, but this is exactly my point, that this represents a changing American mentality that IS conducive to conversion to socialism. I am not trying to argue that Revolution is nigh or anything like that, that's absurd.

[Robocommie]

Social Democracy is still capitalism.

Sure, Social Democracy is better for the worker than american capitalism or the free market, but it is still CAPITALISM, and it goes against what real socialists believe.

I'm not gonna sit here and defend the idea that socialism is = social democracy. Because that's saying socialism = capitalism.

God-damnit, I am not trying to argue that social democracy is socialism. But it sure as fuck is more progressive than the kind of policies we endure over here.

[Robocommie]

You know, this is what's really getting under my skin at this point, about this thread. The only thing that this poll DOES say is that 36% of Americans have a positive reaction to the word "socialism." But people react as if we were to then introduce ourselves and explain what socialism is, they would just stop and shout, "Blech! That's socialism? Fuck that!"

I honestly do not get this pessimistic mentality. What is it about this poll that is just so unbearable that instead of people saying, "Hey cool, the word socialism is less of a cuss word than it used to be!" they just feel the need to cross their arms and grouse, and say that in actual fact, people don't REALLY want socialism.

What are you worried about, that our side might actually start to make gains in the US for a change?

[robbo203]

You honestly feel we need to win over the reactionaries for a revolution?


Of course. Since socialism cannot be imposed from above and can only come about when the vast majority want and understand it, how else do your propose to get socialism without winning over a very large number of those who you currently call reactionaries, a large slice of the population?.

You asked me earlier whether I thought the "average American working man is stupid". I dont but do you? Do you think someone who is currently a reactionary is incapable of changing his or her mind?

[mykittyhasaboner]

Well no not really. It could simply be a case of one step forward but two steps back. See, you are missing the point. If people think that socialism means a bigger role for the capitalist state in society (and you seem to agree with me that by and large this is what most people think "socialism" is and that it is regretable that they do) this actually makes it harder, not easier, for socialists to put across the case for genuine socialism.

Well yeah, it makes it harder. But that's the point of revolutionaries and working class parties, to break the domination of bourgeois ideology among political discourse. Miss-association of socialism with welfare states can be very problematic for explaining that a socialist society is a post revolutionary society based on working class power. I completely agree with you on this.

The problem is though, I do not share the notion that because people have positive connotations towards "socialism" (even if many of the 350 out of 927 probably felt that "socialism" meant a welfare capitalist state similar to countries in north/western Europe, or perhaps even the health care reform bill) that it must immediately mean all of these people are ignorant and would not be receptive to radical ideas proposed by communists. While it seems you think that someone in the US having a positive idea of "socialism" (whatever you want to say it is) is a step forward yet two steps back because they are mislead--I think it depends on revolutionaries to organize and explain what socialism is and isn't.

A good majority of people in the US would never consider anything "socialistic" would be worth applying at all like 20 years ago, shit even 2 years ago. The very word is almost taboo amongst some folks, especially in the more 'conservative' parts of the US. Now everyone generally agrees that a degree of social reform must be undertaken--as evidenced by an increased positive reception of "socialism". All I can say is that communists must use this desire for change and explain the underlying class struggle which causes this whole mess.




Firstly, we ve got to go through all the rigmarole of explaining to fellow workers that what they might think is socialism (a bigger role for the capitalist state) is not socialism at all. This is tedious enough and a lot more difficult than if they had no idea of what socialism meant at all
Well your a communist trying to inform people about communism. Only your going up against religions, corporations, revised and whitewashed history, a century of anti-communist propaganda and warfare, and delusional assholes calling Obama a socialist. Get used to it. I don't see why you are so dismissive of this whole thing. Again, if you want to prove to others what "genuine socialism" is then why fuss so much about how some people who think positively of "socialism" (which again was not defined in anyway on this poll) have false and stereotypical ideas? There's no point in complaining about it or denouncing what many here in the US who support revolutionary politics and witness daily the kind of ignorance spread around like the plague--would see as a potential improvement.


Secondly, when the capitalist state does get more involved in society with all the adverse repercussions this will tend to have for the working class, then you will have the inevitable response that - "we had socialism and it sucks". Workers will not be interested in any version of "socialism" including of course what I understand to be genuine socialism (as opposed to state capitalism). There will also be the problem of guilt by association. Somehow, you can bet your last bottom dollar, you will be held responsible for encouraging the sort of ideas and forstering the kind of climate in which the capitalist state feels prompted to flex its muscles more. However much you may protest that this is not the case, that you have consistently rejected the idea of nationalisation , that the Soviet Union et al were not socialist but state capitalist, they will still not quite fully believe you. Shit sticks as the saying goes and this applies to ideas as well and the associations they elicit.I think your looking way too far into this, and it's counter-productive. Your already set on the notion that peoples perception of socialism is worthless and there is no improvement to be found anywhere. I really can't say much, this idea is really just pessimistic and elitist.

If you really want to keep arguing about this then just consider one thing--that plenty of US workers aren't ignorant about politics and while a good portion of them are, there is always room for improvement and it is up to conscious workers to educate others not to denounce desire for social change or blame workers for poor political consciousness. Consider that the very word 'socialism' would have never been taken seriously a few years ago by most people living in the US.

[Robocommie]

Of course. Since socialism cannot be imposed from above and can only come about when the vast majority want and understand it, how else do your propose to get socialism without winning over a very large number of those who you currently call reactionaries, a large slice of the population?.

You asked me earlier whether I thought the "average American working man is stupid". I dont but do you? Do you think someone who is currently a reactionary is incapable of changing his or her mind?

Fair enough, I see your point, and I can agree with it to an extent. However, I think there's a sizable minority who will never join our side - and really, many of the people I referred to as reactionaries are not even working class.

[syndicat]

we can argue all we want about what we think socialism is. but words get their reference by the dominant use in our language group, that is, the mass of the people out there. "socialism" is mostly used to refer either to what exists in the Communist countries...tho Americans are more inclined to use "Communism" to mean that...or to the various European socialist or social-democratic parties.

Thus there probably is a statist tilt to what people think it refers to. But ignorance is something that is relatively easily cured..by informing people more fully about authentic socialist ideas.

but it's not just statism that "socialism" means for people, I think. I think it means an introduction of some element of democracy into economic life...people in the USA may regard the existing governmental setup as "democracy." On the other hand, about half the working class doesn't vote since they think the two dominant parties don't represent them...correctly. That would seem to imply they don't think it's all that democratic. So the implications aren't entirely clear.

[Die Rote Fahne]

God-damnit, I am not trying to argue that social democracy is socialism. But it sure as fuck is more progressive than the kind of policies we endure over here.

I'm not saying you're arguing that.

I'm saying that a large part of the American people who support the idea of "socialism", in fact support social democracy.

Yes, it's important to educate them the difference. And yes, Social Democracy is a lot better than what the US has.

However, the fact remains, socialism is not social democracy. That needs to be understood.

[chegitz guevara]

I think a lot of comrades completely miss the point.

What this means is, it's a hell of a lot easier to talk to people about socialism.

Two years ago, I'm a socialist ... you're crazy

Now, I'm a socialist, cool.

If people have a positive view of socialism, even if they don't understand what it means, it means we can talk to them about it, and educate them, where we could not do so before.

Before we can win people to revolutionary politics, we have to talk to them. Before we can talk to them, they have to stop thinking we're crazy. More than a third of Americans no longer think we're crazy.

[Robocommie]

Before we can win people to revolutionary politics, we have to talk to them. Before we can talk to them, they have to stop thinking we're crazy. More than a third of Americans no longer think we're crazy.

Exactly, and even if they are confusing socialism with social democracy, we can tell them about workplace democracy and other things, and if socialism is actually as appealing as we think it is, that shouldn't be a problem.

[anticap]

this is the country that made the movie "Red Dawn"

Hey, I love that movie! :( When I first saw it, the political stuff went right over my head. All I saw was an army parachuting into a town and imposing itself on the population, and a bunch of kids grabbing gear from the sporting goods store and heading for the hills to prepare for a guerrilla war. It was kickass! :D And even now that I'm politically awake, I can't say I'd have taken too kindly to an invasion by the USSR, especially since I don't think they were socialist. (I must admit, though, that I laughed when I read Peter Hitchens's story of his brother Christopher saying "I don't care if the Red Army waters its horses at Hendon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hendon).")

[Robocommie]

Hey, I love that movie! :( When I first saw it, the political stuff went right over my head. All I saw was an army parachuting into a town and imposing itself on the population, and a bunch of kids grabbing gear from the sporting goods store and heading for the hills to prepare for a guerrilla war. It was kickass! :D And even now that I'm politically awake, I can't say I'd have taken too kindly to an invasion by the USSR, especially since I don't think they were socialist. (I must admit, though, that I laughed when I read Peter Hitchens's story of his brother Christopher saying "I don't care if the Red Army waters its horses at Hendon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hendon).")

The first time I saw Red Dawn, and that Soviet paratrooper shot that teacher for no reason, I didn't even know the politics behind it, I just remember thinking, "Wait, wut?" :lol:

[Agnapostate]

http://www.politicalforum.com/political-opinions-beliefs/128326-pew-poll-socialism-not-viewed-negatively-you-might-think.html