Forklifts useful in large labor uprisings?

[Psy]

I was got to thinking about if large forklifts would be any use against riot police, the large forklifts has the lifting capacity to flip anything police throws at them, also would be much more useful in building barricades then bulldozers.

I mean having militant workers bring their forklifts to confront riot police would even make flipping police car much more easier then trying to flip them by hand. Forklifts could also carry armor on their forks not only to protect the driver but to block the line of fire of the riot police.

Also I'm talking revolutionary situation here with massive mobilization of workers since of course lone forklifts would not last long against police, I'm talking more like Paris May 1968 as a means to more efficiently crush the police.

[RotStern]

Would you mess with a pissed off bull?
No?
Would you mess with a pissed off metal bull?
I thought not.

[The Ben G]

Maybe if you put barbed wire on it.

[#FF0000]

I am pretty sure they would be able to use deadly force against someone driving a forklift at them, though.

[Psy]

Maybe if you put barbed wire on it.
I would not depend on it, militant workers on the ground would be the best defense to keep police off it.

Yet when you get to the very large forklift with massive 50ft masts used at ports, I don't think police would try getting on them as to person on the ground they are look downright massive. And for forklifts where the cab stays at fork level the cab can be 50ft off the ground.

[Psy]

I am pretty sure they would be able to use deadly force against someone driving a forklift at them, though.
The larger forklifts can lift heavy tanks meaning they can carry enough armor in front of the cab to stop even heavy machine gun fire and only have to worry about being flanked.

Also smoke has been effectively used in uprisings to reduce the viability of police (they can't effectively shoot a forklift operator if all they can see is the silhouette of the forklift through thick smoke).

Lastly I'm talking about a massive labor uprisings during a revolutionary situation when workers are already throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails at police and it has gone way past peaceful protest with police.

[Chambered Word]

Armoured assault forklift, FUCK YEAH!

[JacobVardy]

I like the idea but i can see a few problems (i use forklifts at work):

- they move slowly, so getting them to the front might be difficult;
- they can not cover even slightly rough terrain (unless you use a construction fork) so , again, problems getting to the front and moving around it;
- a sideways swipe can do a lot of damage to legs and ankles so it would be difficult to move in a crowd.

[Psy]

I like the idea but i can see a few problems (i use forklifts at work):

- they move slowly, so getting them to the front might be difficult;

Diesel forklifts can move as fast as a tractor that is fast enough when there are people on foot around.



- they can not cover even slightly rough terrain (unless you use a construction fork) so , again, problems getting to the front and moving around it;

Hyster diesel forklifts at my old work moved fine over the gravel yards even on the grades even though they were not 4x4 construction forklifts. In fact every diesel forklift I've seen can move fine over gravel.



- a sideways swipe can do a lot of damage to legs and ankles so it would be difficult to move in a crowd.
True

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'm sure when there are new worker uprisings there will be all sorts of ways that people will use their specific skills and positions in production against the system.

I remember reading that in a general strike in Paris in the 20s, electrical workers used coded power outages to signal to the rest of the city when to walk off the job or when the quasi-fascist opposition was marching. Pretty cool if you ask me.

[JacobVardy]

I'm sorry but this is something that i should have said before: this is in no way, shape or form something that should be discussed on a monitored public forum.

[#FF0000]

JacobVardy's right, I think.

Still it's nice to see people planning for revolution like they would a zombie apocalypse.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Then let's destroy the thread so that we don't let info like this get out in the wrong hands. We need to start implementing private threads as well, for specific reasons if you know what I mean.

[Scary Monster]

Armoured assault forklift, FUCK YEAH!

and and and....mount some machine guns on it! =D

And maybe a launcher to take out any barricades and armored cars the police might have.

But seriously though, this kind of talk would be enough justification for "authorities" to track all of us down and detain us, even if its not really serious. I agree we should definitely make some kind of secret thread ;)

[bcbm]

We need to start implementing private threads as well, for specific reasons if you know what I mean.

no, we don't.

[The Vegan Marxist]

no, we don't.

and why's that?

[#FF0000]

and why's that?

Because it is the internet, and there is literally no such thing as a "private thread".

[bcbm]

loveshach pretty much nailed it. its horrible security culture to talk about anything illegal on the internet and if the thought crossed your mind, you probably shouldn't be talking about illegal shit period.

[The Vegan Marxist]

loveshach pretty much nailed it. its horrible security culture to talk about anything illegal on the internet and if the thought crossed your mind, you probably shouldn't be talking about illegal shit period.

then what would you recommend for this type of talk then? being organized enough is an importance.

[bcbm]

then what would you recommend for this type of talk then?

i think talking about whether or not we could use forklifts against riot police in a "may 68 type situation" and similar topics are mental masturbation at best, so i would recommend just not talking about stupid illegal nonsense.


being organized enough is an importance.

yes, and this sort of shit has nothing to do with being organized.

[zimmerwald1915]

Because it is the internet, and there is literally no such thing as a "private thread".
This cannot possibly be stressed enough.

[The Vegan Marxist]

i think talking about whether or not we could use forklifts against riot police in a "may 68 type situation" and similar topics are mental masturbation at best, so i would recommend just not talking about stupid illegal nonsense.



yes, and this sort of shit has nothing to do with being organized.

Not implying that using forklifts is a way of being organized. But with the rules on RevLeft, we can't even talk about how to become organized during a state of revolution. So your argument against me is invalid.

[Scary Monster]

i think talking about whether or not we could use forklifts against riot police in a "may 68 type situation" and similar topics are mental masturbation at best, so i would recommend just not talking about stupid illegal nonsense.



yes, and this sort of shit has nothing to do with being organized.

lol somebody needs a nap. Some people take some things a lil too seriously

Besides, anything at all we do to plan against a government is considered illegal.

[#FF0000]

lol somebody needs a nap. Some people take some things a lil too seriously

Oh so I guess this should be in chit-chat then.


Besides, anything at all we do to plan against a government is considered illegal.

Which is probably why we don't talk about it on the internet, champ.

[Scary Monster]

Which is probably why we don't talk about it on the internet, champ.

Nah champ, they can misconstrue anything we say in this entire site as a reason to crack down on us. As if this is the first thread weve mentioned violent revolutions being necessary and all. If they really wanted to get us, they could just deem us terrorists and thats it.

And I agree (even though im not a moderator) this does belong in chit chat, since this didnt seem a like a serious thread to begin with. I think Psy was askin a serious question though.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Nah champ, they can misconstrue anything we say in this entire site as a reason to crack down on us. If they really wanted to get us, they could just deem us terrorists and thats it.

Exactly! They don't need to get direct quotes from people on this site to deem us as terrorists & take us out. They can get us by merely having this up & talk about even the idea of Communism taking a rise over Capitalism. Hell, we've got a support thread for the Nepalese Maoists, who are seen as terrorists by the U.S. So I'm sure we're already past the barriers of being in the line of threat against the Capitalist powers, worldwide.

[Scary Monster]

Exactly! They don't need to get direct quotes from people on this site to deem us as terrorists & take us out. They can get us by merely having this up & talk about even the idea of Communism taking a rise over Capitalism. Hell, we've got a support thread for the Nepalese Maoists, who are seen as terrorists by the U.S. So I'm sure we're already past the barriers of being in the line of threat against the Capitalist powers, worldwide.

Lets watch our backs in case we decide to go on a vacation outside the US. Under Obama's orders, we can all be legally assassinated (which is true) :lol:

[scarletghoul]

I was got to thinking about if large forklifts would be any use against riot police, the large forklifts has the lifting capacity to flip anything police throws at them, also would be much more useful in building barricades then bulldozers.

I mean having militant workers bring their forklifts to confront riot police would even make flipping police car much more easier then trying to flip them by hand. Forklifts could also carry armor on their forks not only to protect the driver but to block the line of fire of the riot police.

Also I'm talking revolutionary situation here with massive mobilization of workers since of course lone forklifts would not last long against police, I'm talking more like Paris May 1968 as a means to more efficiently crush the police.
For some reason i find this fucking hilarious
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::l augh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[OldMoney]

There is nothing funny about this. I suppose it all depends on where you com from right. I figure if I live in a country that will allow one of the major polictical parties to hold a referundum to decide wethere or not they split from the conferacy or not, I should be free enough to talk about using diesel forkiftls in a revoutionary situation. I dont think Psy was talking about using this method durring a strike or some sort of labour rally. So why not disscuss things like this, or how a man in granby colorado armoured up a bulldozer to destroy a city. He plated the F out of it and mounted it with cameras to see all angles, with assult riffles built in to shoot anyone who climbed aboard. But in a pinch, yes diesel forklifts would mess stuff up good. There is no such thing as a secure line on the internet, so why not disscuss these types of measures online and let the imperialist pigs know that were done messing arround!!

[Chambered Word]

Ssssh, they'll hear our plans to mount machine guns on the forklift.

And no, the internet is never secure, even if you're using 7 proxies.

[Psy]

I dont think Psy was talking about using this method durring a strike or some sort of labour rally.

Right because the police would see them as serious threat.

Yet forklifts could still build barricades during strikes and labour rallies though they would have to take extra caution to not make any aggressive postures against police in those situations if police gets too close to barricades I doubt they would even be able to work on them as police probably have very little experience working near heavy machinery and it be too unsafe as police could do something incredibly stupid for example move into their blindspot while its moving or expecting a diesel forklift operator to hear them since by law diesel forklift operators have to wear ear protection while operating them (so they would have them). This also means those near the forklifts would also have to have experience working near heavy machinery and we can't just anyone near them regardless of how revolutionary they are.

Other heavy equipment that can be used is trucks/buses that can be used road blocks, to move people around, to move equipment around, to move supplies around and as make shift first aid stations. Trains like trucks and buses can be used as transportation and to create roadblocks across level crossings with the added benefit of diesel locomotive able to providing electricity (so if police cuts the power to a community diesel locomotives could power the community to some extent).

[bcbm]

Not implying that using forklifts is a way of being organized. But with the rules on RevLeft, we can't even talk about how to become organized during a state of revolution. So your argument against me is invalid.

what do you mean we can't talk about how to become organized?


lol somebody needs a nap. Some people take some things a lil too seriously

well, i think being committed to the elimination of capital and all is a pretty serious thing.


Besides, anything at all we do to plan against a government is considered illegal.

not really and that doesn't make it a better idea to post about illegal things, especially imaginary illegal things that have nothing to do with creating an effective communist praxis.


Exactly! They don't need to get direct quotes from people on this site to deem us as terrorists & take us out. They can get us by merely having this up & talk about even the idea of Communism taking a rise over Capitalism. Hell, we've got a support thread for the Nepalese Maoists, who are seen as terrorists by the U.S. So I'm sure we're already past the barriers of being in the line of threat against the Capitalist powers, worldwide.

once again, even if all of this were true it wouldn't make it any more sensible to talk about illegal things. if you're really dying to talk about these fantasies, save it for face to face discussions.

[Psy]

not really and that doesn't make it a better idea to post about illegal things, especially imaginary illegal things that have nothing to do with creating an effective communist praxis.

How is mechanization of labor uprisings irrelevant?



once again, even if all of this were true it wouldn't make it any more sensible to talk about illegal things. if you're really dying to talk about these fantasies, save it for face to face discussions.
How is mechanization of labor uprisings more of a fantasy and more illegal then factory occupations (which we regularly talk about)?

[Scary Monster]

well, i think being committed to the elimination of capital and all is a pretty serious thing.

Yeah but you reeally flipped out only because people started imagining what we could do with a forklift. Besides, Psy and the first few posters were serious while discussing this.


really and that doesn't make it a better idea to post about illegal things, especially imaginary illegal things that have nothing to do with creating an effective communist praxis.

Well of course it doesnt make it better, but my point was that if they wanted to get us, they would have done so already, or they already have enough material available on this website to label us as terrorists, with the countless threads about some of us who support Hamas, the indian Maoists, etc, who the US has listed as a terrorist organization.


again, even if all of this were true it wouldn't make it any more sensible to talk about illegal things. If you're really dying to talk about these fantasies, save it for face to face discussions.

lol since when did the police care whether a specific action that protesters, or people in general (let alone an actual workers movement), do is considered illegal or not? Theyll beat the shit out of anyone who threatens the existing order, whether we are peaceful or not. Look at what the Italian government did to the protesters during the G8 summit in Genoa back in 2001. They even planted weapons or outright lied on their police reports as an excuse to unlawfully detain and violently abuse the protesters. Talking or not talking about "hypothetical situations" wont lower the chance of them coming after us. Besides its not like were talking about a specific event and date where we are actually gonna put these into practice, and we never said we were even gonna do this in the future.

[bcbm]

How is mechanization of labor uprisings irrelevant?

our ability as workers to challenge capital does not lie in any level of military capability we achieve, but in our ability to paralyze the flow of capital and the mechanisms of state power. it is social force we are trying to construct.


How is mechanization of labor uprisings more of a fantasy and more illegal then factory occupations (which we regularly talk about)?

occupations are actually a tactic being used by workers and the discussions around them don't involve their use as a potential weapon.

--


Yeah but you reeally flipped out only because people started imagining what we could do with a forklift. Besides, Psy and the first few posters were serious while discussing this.

i didn't flip out. i just think it is pretty dumb to talk about using heavy machinery to attack police officers on a public forum, even in a general sense.


Well of course it doesnt make it better, but my point was that if they wanted to get us, they would have done so already, or they already have enough material available on this website to label us as terrorists, with the countless threads about some of us who support Hamas, the indian Maoists, etc, who the US has listed as a terrorist organization.

it isn't simply a matter of them coming to get us, everything we put on the web can be saved and used later if they're ever building a case against you for something else- this can be seen in the ongoing scott demuth (http://davenportgrandjury.wordpress.com/) case.

[Scary Monster]

it isn't simply a matter of them coming to get us, everything we put on the web can be saved and used later if they're ever building a case against you for something else- this can be seen in the ongoing scott demuth (http://davenportgrandjury.wordpress.com/) case.

Exactly what ive been saying all along

[Psy]

our ability as workers to challenge capital does not lie in any level of military capability we achieve, but in our ability to paralyze the flow of capital and the mechanisms of state power. it is social force we are trying to construct.

Actually it does, if we lack the means to defend the military military then the capitalists will simply win on the battlefield.



occupations are actually a tactic being used by workers and the discussions around them don't involve their use as a potential weapon.

History shows the bourgeoisie does not see any difference between peaceful insurrections and armed insurrections in both cases bourgeoisie state uses the full might of the state to crush insurrections.



i didn't flip out. i just think it is pretty dumb to talk about using heavy machinery to attack police officers on a public forum, even in a general sense.



it isn't simply a matter of them coming to get us, everything we put on the web can be saved and used later if they're ever building a case against you for something else- this can be seen in the ongoing scott demuth (http://davenportgrandjury.wordpress.com/) case.

It does not matter COINTPRO showed the state will just manufacture evidence if it can't find any.

[Wakka]

Why not have a combination of fork lifts and bulldozers? And maybe we can throw in one or two roller compactors. Yeah...

[Psy]

Why not have a combination of fork lifts and bulldozers? And maybe we can throw in one or two roller compactors. Yeah...
Bulldozers have far less usefulness in building barricades and forklifts have a better chance in incapacitating police APCs without seriously hurting the crews inside as they can more easily flip them or simply lift them up and drop them on roof top (for the forklifts with tall masts used in ports).

[bcbm]

Actually it does, if we lack the means to defend the military military then the capitalists will simply win on the battlefield. "the battlefield" is our workplaces, neighborhoods, etc and our ability to achieve victory is determined by the strength of the social force attempting to divorce itself from capitalist relations. there will obviously be some military considerations to be made, if only purely defensive, but these are entirely secondary to the social considerations; it is the strength of the social force opposing capital that will be the decisive factor.
History shows the bourgeoisie does not see any difference between peaceful insurrections and armed insurrections in both cases bourgeoisie state uses the full might of the state to crush insurrections. we're not talking about an insurrection, we're talking about imaginary tactics for vague future situations and in this instance i think the difference between talking about a factory occupation and talking about physical violence against the police matters.
It does not matter COINTPRO showed the state will just manufacture evidence if it can't find any. this is a vast oversimplification.

[Sam_b]

Why is this nonsense in Learning?

[Psy]

"the battlefield" is our workplaces, neighborhoods, etc and our ability to achieve victory is determined by the strength of the social force attempting to divorce itself from capitalist relations. there will obviously be some military considerations to be made, if only purely defensive, but these are entirely secondary to the social considerations; it is the strength of the social force opposing capital that will be the decisive factor.

Yes and the state would send armed bodies to rip the proletariat from their workplace before letting the proletariat take control of it.



we're not talking about an insurrection, we're talking about imaginary tactics for vague future situations and in this instance i think the difference between talking about a factory occupation and talking about physical violence against the police matters.
Actually we are, look my original post where I state I was talking revolutionary situations with critical mass. Later I added that forklifts could also mechanize the building of barricades prior to revolutionary situations.



this is a vast oversimplification.

Not really, as the US bourgeoisie state is well known for fabricating evidence against minor threats against them so logically they will not hesitate in fabricating evidence against major threats against them. Meaning even if we only said patriotic crap till the day of the insurrection the FBI would manufacture "evidence" that we were "Anti-Americans" since a toddler.

If we can't even convince the masses that: the state has lied, the state lies and the state will lie, then we greatly failed in educating the masses.



Why is this nonsense in Learning?

As we are talking mechanization of uprisings, we better know if we should mechanize uprisings before they happen as Paris May 1968 showed that we can't really debate during a insurrection and need a general battle plan we can implement quickly.

[Sam_b]

The general battle plan would be to get workers on our side, not silly rubbish about employing forklift trucks. Seriously, this is ridiculous.

If you were, IIRC, the guy who was moaning about no leftist video games, then I see how this thread makes sense to you.

[bcbm]

Yes and the state would send armed bodies to rip the proletariat from their workplace before letting the proletariat take control of it.

there are about 130,000 police in the us. there are several hundred million workers. with enough social force, their military might becomes irrelevant. beyond sheer numbers of individuals, if we can effectively paralyze the economy and have sufficiently spread the social insurrection across the territory, it won't be possible for power to maintain itself, even with armed bodies.



Actually we are, look my original post where I state I was talking revolutionary situations with critical mass.

future imaginary situations.


Not really, as the US bourgeoisie state is well known for fabricating evidence against minor threats against them so logically they will not hesitate in fabricating evidence against major threats against them. Meaning even if we only said patriotic crap till the day of the insurrection the FBI would manufacture "evidence" that we were "Anti-Americans" since a toddler.

i'm not suggesting they never fabricate evidence, i am suggesting that even if they do it doesn't make it a good idea to openly talk about running over police officers with forklifts and my objection isn't only hinged on what that state security services will think anyway.


As we are talking mechanization of uprisings, we better know if we should mechanize uprisings before they happen as Paris May 1968 showed that we can't really debate during a insurrection and need a general battle plan we can implement quickly.

i don't think it is possible to create a "general battle plan" for some imaginary revolution. decisions will be made in the streets, by the people struggling. nobody is going to stop to consult some vague battle plan thought up by leftists on the internet.

[Psy]

The general battle plan would be to get workers on our side, not silly rubbish about employing forklift trucks. Seriously, this is ridiculous.

How is it silly rubbish?

Would it not be silly rubbish to deny forklift trucks to help in building the barricades? And in during a insurgency to help in the attack? What Molotov are okay in a armed revolution but not forklifts? What about when there is revolutionary army would it still silly for forklifts to take care of what police forces still are hostile, or help fortify our positions.

[Wanted Man]

JacobVardy's right, I think.

Still it's nice to see people planning for revolution like they would a zombie apocalypse.

Will the revolutionary proletariat use chainsaws against cops in the next May 68 situation?

Also, when the next revolutionary situation comes around, perhaps the proletariat can play Britney Spears at volume 11 from massive speakers to intimidate the cops.

This is serious stuff guys.

[Psy]

there are about 130,000 police in the us. there are several hundred million workers. with enough social force, their military might becomes irrelevant. beyond sheer numbers of individuals, if we can effectively paralyze the economy and have sufficiently spread the social insurrection across the territory, it won't be possible for power to maintain itself, even with armed bodies.

You forget the military has historically backed up the police and that other bourgeoisie imperial powers will eventually intervene. Meaning we would need to beat the police very very quickly so we could clear them out and barricade the cities before the military can get a foothold in the cities so we have more room to retreat if need be.




future imaginary situations.

So revolutions are imaginary, you must be a very pessimistic revolutionary.



i'm not suggesting they never fabricate evidence, i am suggesting that even if they do it doesn't make it a good idea to openly talk about running over police officers with forklifts and my objection isn't only hinged on what that state security services will think anyway.

I never mentioned running over police, I mention flipping police vehicles, lifting police vehicle and dropping police vehicles on the roofs of buildings and helping fortify positions.




i don't think it is possible to create a "general battle plan" for some imaginary revolution. decisions will be made in the streets, by the people struggling. nobody is going to stop to consult some vague battle plan thought up by leftists on the internet.
Paris May 1968, Winnipeg 1919 and the German uprisings prior to WWII showed that does not work. Without pre-planning the workers can't focus their energy on crushing the state.

[Sam_b]

Would it not be silly rubbish to deny forklift trucks to help in building the barricades? And in during a insurgency to help in the attack? What Molotov are okay in a armed revolution but not forklifts? What about when there is revolutionary army would it still silly for forklifts to take care of what police forces still are hostile, or help fortify our positions.

I love your optimism about employing industrial machinery at a time where the class is still needing to be brought together.

Nobody has mentioned Molotovs as far as I know, except yourself. But if you're concerned about how to build barricades and leftist value in video games rather than trying to think of strategy to build the class, then go for it :rolleyes:

[Psy]

I love your optimism about employing industrial machinery at a time where the class is still needing to be brought together.

Capitalism is failing and workers are getting angery.



Nobody has mentioned Molotovs as far as I know, except yourself.
They are still a staple of more violent uprisings around the world. Thus I think some people here are far too discounted as they talk about like flipping police APCs with forklifts being far too violent while workers currently have no problem burning them at much greater risk to police crews.

So risking giving police officers 3rd degree burns is okay yet giving them minor injuries by flipping the vehicle they are ridding is somehow über-violent.

[this is an invasion]

So risking giving police officers 3rd degree burns is okay yet giving them minor injuries by flipping the vehicle they are ridding is somehow über-violent.
nah it's just a silly minor detail that doesn't need it's own thread.

[bcbm]

You forget the military has historically backed up the police and that other bourgeoisie imperial powers will eventually intervene.

i must be doing well for myself if i am forgetting things that haven't happened yet.


Meaning we would need to beat the police very very quickly so we could clear them out and barricade the cities before the military can get a foothold in the cities so we have more room to retreat if need be.

i can't really fathom a guess as to what it will really take to reach communism, but i think it seems pretty likely that the path leading to it will bear little resemblance to the previous paths humans have walked in attempting to get there. the revolution is not a war.


So revolutions are imaginary, you must be a very pessimistic revolutionary.

only time will tell on that, but the situation being discussed in this thread is imaginary, yes.


Paris May 1968, Winnipeg 1919 and the German uprisings prior to WWII showed that does not work. Without pre-planning the workers can't focus their energy on crushing the state.

i think reducing what happened in previous uprisings to inadequate pre-planning is a seriously lacking analysis.


They are still a staple of more violent uprisings around the world. Thus I think some people here are far too discounted as they talk about like flipping police APCs with forklifts being far too violent while workers currently have no problem burning them at much greater risk to police crews.

the issue is posting it on the forum, not violence in general. i think a post saying "hey should we throw molotovs at pigs?!" would be pretty fucking stupid too.

[Os Cangaceiros]

You forget the military has historically backed up the police and that other bourgeoisie imperial powers will eventually intervene. Meaning we would need to beat the police very very quickly so we could clear them out and barricade the cities before the military can get a foothold in the cities so we have more room to retreat if need be.

I think a significant part of the Left (or, at least on this site) thinks that they're still living in Barcelona circa 1936.

In reality I don't see some kind of apocalyptic "workers vs. Army!" endgame. At this point in time it just doesn't seem feasible...if and when revolution happens, I think you'll be suprised by how non-violent it will be.

That's not to say that it will be completely non-violent, or that I'm opposed to violence. But I do think that the old order will die with more of a whimper than a bang.

[Psy]

i must be doing well for myself if i am forgetting things that haven't happened yet.

They have, for example Winnipeg 1919 where the Canadian bourgeoisie sent in the RCMP (federal police) when the Winnipeg police sided with the Winnipeg soviet, or Maryland/Pennsylvania/Philadelphia/West Virgina in 1877 where the USA sent in the federal Army after a revolutionary army caused half of the local National Guard to defect due the shear size and popularity of the workers insurrection.



i can't really fathom a guess as to what it will really take to reach communism, but i think it seems pretty likely that the path leading to it will bear little resemblance to the previous paths humans have walked in attempting to get there. the revolution is not a war.

Revolution causes war, it is unavoidable. The capitalists will not go down without a fight.



only time will tell on that, but the situation being discussed in this thread is imaginary, yes.

I think Trotsky, Lenin and Marx would disagree on that, especially given that capitalism is growing more unstable.



i think reducing what happened in previous uprisings to inadequate pre-planning is a seriously lacking analysis.

Of course it is lack of pre-planning. Do you honestly think workers that has been class consciousness for only hours can make logical decisions? They failed because workers lacked serious analysis of their situation because they were still comming to grasps with the neuances of the capitalist system since most workers don't read Marx till a revolutionary situation yet it takes months to start to absorb the works of Marx.



the issue is posting it on the forum, not violence in general. i think a post saying "hey should we throw molotovs at pigs?!" would be pretty fucking stupid too.

Why? It is no more violent then anything Malcom X suggested, should we never mention Malcom X on the forums as it would tip off the state we are militant towards it (wouldn't simply posting anything on these forums tell them that)? How about the workers of Huey Newton and Fred Hampton?

[bcbm]

They have, for example Winnipeg 1919 where the Canadian bourgeoisie sent in the RCMP (federal police) when the Winnipeg police sided with the Winnipeg soviet, or Maryland/Pennsylvania/Philadelphia/West Virgina in 1877 where the USA sent in the federal Army after a revolutionary army caused half of the local National Guard to defect due the shear size and popularity of the workers insurrection.

the past =/= the future


Revolution causes war, it is unavoidable. The capitalists will not go down without a fight.

would you mind lending me your crystal ball?



I think Trotsky, Lenin and Marx would disagree on that, especially given that capitalism is growing more unstable.

i doubt it, given that they're all long dead.


Of course it is lack of pre-planning. Do you honestly think workers that has been class consciousness for only hours can make logical decisions? They failed because workers lacked serious analysis of their situation because they were still comming to grasps with the neuances of the capitalist system since most workers don't read Marx till a revolutionary situation yet it takes months to start to absorb the works of Marx.

for "only hours?"

but yes, i think we have the brains and know-how to bring down capitalism with or without reading marx (i never have).


Why? It is no more violent then anything Malcom X suggested, should we never mention Malcom X on the forums as it would tip off the state we are militant towards it (wouldn't simply posting anything on these forums tell them that)? How about the workers of Huey Newton and Fred Hampton?

its not about tipping off the state. obviously they know the "revolutionary left" is against it and undoubtedly keep an eye on things. its more about not saying stupid, openly illegal shit that has no relevance because it can be used against you (or possibly the site) later.

[Psy]

the past =/= the future

That trend of bourgeoisie state bringing in troops to crush any rebellion that gets momentum has yet to show signs of fading away.



would you mind lending me your crystal ball?

It is not a crystal ball, it is anticipating how the bourgeoisie will react.




i doubt it, given that they're all long dead.

I meant if they were alive.



for "only hours?"

Yes hours since it won't take long for riot police to launch a organized assault and historically we'd only have a few days before troops show up.

Yet even if the bourgeoisie gives a month that still wouldn't be enough time to bring the masses up to speed enough to make logical decisions regarding the revolution.



but yes, i think we have the brains and know-how to bring down capitalism with or without reading marx (i never have).

It is a question of time which we won't have a lot of.



its not about tipping off the state. obviously they know the "revolutionary left" is against it and undoubtedly keep an eye on things. its more about not saying stupid, openly illegal shit that has no relevance because it can be used against you (or possibly the site) later.
Again then we can't talk about Malcolm X, Huey Newton and Fred Hampton. Not to mention technically revolution itself is illegal even totally peaceful and here we are just talking about "violence" against vehicles that would mostly be destruction of public (police) property, so by that logic we can't talk about the Paris 2005 as that was much more "violence" against vehicles then simply flipping them with forklifts.

[bcbm]

That trend of bourgeoisie state bringing in troops to crush any rebellion that gets momentum has yet to show signs of fading away.

It is not a crystal ball, it is anticipating how the bourgeoisie will react.

i think if the ruling class still has the capacity to bring in troops then the social force necessary to push for communism probably hasn't been achieved yet. our strategy should be to make the use of arms unneccesary, not to attempt a war against the bourgeoisie- we'll lose, one way or the other.


I meant if they were alive.

sure you don't want to lend me that crystal ball?


Yes hours since it won't take long for riot police to launch a organized assault and historically we'd only have a few days before troops show up.

i was referring to this:
"workers that has been class consciousness for only hours"

do you view class consciousness as some sort of messianic awakening that will descend on workers?


Yet even if the bourgeoisie gives a month that still wouldn't be enough time to bring the masses up to speed enough to make logical decisions regarding the revolution.

so who is going to make the decisions?


Again then we can't talk about Malcolm X, Huey Newton and Fred Hampton. Not to mention technically revolution itself is illegal even totally peaceful and here we are just talking about "violence" against vehicles that would mostly be destruction of public (police) property, so by that logic we can't talk about the Paris 2005 as that was much more "violence" against vehicles then simply flipping them with forklifts.

there is a difference between talking about something that happened and talking about doing something.

[Psy]

i think if the ruling class still has the capacity to bring in troops then the social force necessary to push for communism probably hasn't been achieved yet. our strategy should be to make the use of arms unneccesary, not to attempt a war against the bourgeoisie- we'll lose, one way or the other.

This is that facility of waiting for a perfect revolution. We are probably never going to get 100% of the military to defect and it is not impossible to win militarily Russia was able to crush both the forces still loyal to the ruling class and imperialist forces intervening.



i was referring to this:
"workers that has been class consciousness for only hours"

do you view class consciousness as some sort of messianic awakening that will descend on workers?

More like a fog the lifts from the workers consciousness.



so who is going to make the decisions?

The experienced revolutionaries that defends the revolution.



there is a difference between talking about something that happened and talking about doing something.
Would it have been better if I worded in past tense? And really it is talking about tactics to react to actions by the state.

Are we to wait to the revolution when there is riot police preparing to crush us before talking about our rules of engagement against the state. If we leave it to workers when there is a revolution we won't have any standard even within a city.

[bcbm]

The experienced revolutionaries that defends the revolution.

i think we're done here.

[Psy]

i think we're done here.

So we should risk a fascist backlash just so inexperienced workers can make all the decisions even though they at the time lack the knowledge to make logical decisions?

Should we let workers attack each other out of latent indoctrination just so they can take part in total decision making right of the bat?

What is the point of total decision making? If a revolutionary party takes the demands of the masses then internally decides how to go about it what is the problem.

What is wrong with a revolutionary army making battle plans internally to meet long range goals of the masses (like defeating the capitalist forces).

[bcbm]

"the emancipation of the working class must be the act of the workers themselves"


or do they have to read marx before they can do that?

[Psy]

"the emancipation of the working class must be the act of the workers themselves"


or do they have to read marx before they can do that?
You forget he also said the prevailing ideas of the time, the culture of society, are all determined to some extent or another by the economic structure of society.

You also seem to think that vanguard revolutionaries are not part of the working class, that if someone understands Marx prior to a revolutionary situation they can't be a wage slave.

[bcbm]

You forget he also said the prevailing ideas of the time, the culture of society, are all determined to some extent or another by the economic structure of society.

once we're paralyzing the economy, i think prevailing ideas might be a wee bit different.


You also seem to think that vanguard revolutionaries are not part of the working class, that if someone understands Marx prior to a revolutionary situation they can't be a wage slave.

of course they can, i just don't think this gives them some special privilege to make decisions for the class.

[Scary Monster]

once we're paralyzing the economy, i think prevailing ideas might be a wee bit different.

But isnt this where fascism would kick in? Surely the world's ruling elite will not stand for the very government that enforces and holds global capital together being toppled by a real worker's movement. I think they would do anything in their power to keep that from happening, including extreme military violence, whether that movement is peaceful or not.

[Chambered Word]

Psy: we're not here to think up some wet dream for a revolution. All manner of different plans will be thought of by revolutionary workers around the world when they are needed. They don't need you to tell them what machinery to employ or what ammunition to use against the authorities. Can we just accept that this thread was amusing and move on for fuck's sake?

[Absolut]

They don't need you to tell them what machinery to employ or what ammunition to use against the authorities.

But... what will the vanguard do? Wont somebody please think of the vanguard?!

[Psy]

Psy: we're not here to think up some wet dream for a revolution. All manner of different plans will be thought of by revolutionary workers around the world when they are needed. They don't need you to tell them what machinery to employ or what ammunition to use against the authorities. Can we just accept that this thread was amusing and move on for fuck's sake?
History shows otherwise, workers need a vanguard to even tell them not to trust the bourgeoisie state for example Argentina where due to a lack of strong vanguard workers negotiated with the state for the means of production they seized rather then seizing the state so they would be asking themselves if they can run the factories rather then capitalists.

[milk]

Like the thread title.

[Chambered Word]

But... what will the vanguard do? Wont somebody please think of the vanguard?!

The vanguard, in real life, would help with organization if they were needed. While typing on the internet we aren't much of a fucking vanguard party. We aren't going to have some little online revolution. Way to miss the point.

EDIT: So incase you're wondering, I'm not some Stalinist who thinks the vanguard has to play 'mommy' to the working class. Cue neg rep from said Stalinists.

[The Inquisitor]

The FBI is watching you. :)

[bcbm]

But isnt this where fascism would kick in? Surely the world's ruling elite will not stand for the very government that enforces and holds global capital together being toppled by a real worker's movement. I think they would do anything in their power to keep that from happening, including extreme military violence, whether that movement is peaceful or not.

i think if we view the revolution as a frontal clash of any sort with the forces of power, then we will get precisely that and we will lose, whether outright due to superior force from our enemies or by what we would need to become in order to beat power in a frontal clash. i think a revolutionary strategy for the 21st century will require a lot more subtlety.


History shows otherwise, workers need a vanguard to even tell them not to trust the bourgeoisie state for example Argentina where due to a lack of strong vanguard workers negotiated with the state for the means of production they seized rather then seizing the state so they would be asking themselves if they can run the factories rather then capitalists.

the amount of disdain for workers that some people who want to "liberate" them hold is pretty astounding.

[Sam_b]

workers need a vanguard to even tell them not to trust the bourgeoisie state

For all the legitimate reasons to have a vanguard, and I think there are, this nonsense is certainly not it. You seem to hold a very patrionising view of the working class, summounting to 'telling' the workers what to do. This is not what a vanguard is about.

Back to your video games.

[Absolut]

Way to miss the point.

Yeah, because I really meant that seriously.

[Revolutionary Pseudonym]

Using forklifts may be useful to secure certain inner-city areas effectively within the first day or two of the revolution however after that they would become obselete:
1. Lack of supplies such as petrol/deisel would render them nothing more than a static shield - I doubt logistics would be top of the list for most revolutionaries.
2. Surely after the first day or so and the government considered the revolutionary a significant threat they would call in the armed forces, etc. I wouldnt like to be the guy on the forklift when tanks start shooting at it
3. Further into the revolution we would probaly of captured/aquired/stole mote advanced weaponry which could be utilised more effectively
4. They're very big and could cause a problem for our own; I wouldn't like to see the revolution crushed by friendly fire.
Although I think forklifts could be used in certain situations in the first day, I don't believe the history books would be saying the revolution was won by forklifts.

[Psy]

For all the legitimate reasons to have a vanguard, and I think there are, this nonsense is certainly not it. You seem to hold a very patrionising view of the working class, summounting to 'telling' the workers what to do. This is not what a vanguard is about.




the amount of disdain for workers that some people who want to "liberate" them hold is pretty astounding.

First off just because someone is a experienced revolutionary does not mean they are no longer part of working class. The vanguard is part of the working class they just the most advanced part of the working class.

Next history has shown the bulk of the working class is usually slow to catchup with the vanguard thus are very naive again like Argentina militant workers going through the bourgeoisie legal system to try and justify they seizing of the means of production then getting distracted by elections all because there was no a strong vanguard to correct the proletariat when they are in error.

If the proletariat was as class conscious as you suggested we never need picket lines to stop less conscious workers from scabbing. The problem is proletariat even when mobilized against the bourgeoisie clings onto a significant amount of dogma thought to them by the bourgeoisie during the critical revolutionary phase and the vanguard has block all democratic decision that comes from bourgeoisie indoctrination of the proletariat and replace it with decisions that actually have a chance in succeeding in bringing about communism.

[Psy]

Using forklifts may be useful to secure certain inner-city areas effectively within the first day or two of the revolution however after that they would become obselete:
1. Lack of supplies such as petrol/deisel would render them nothing more than a static shield - I doubt logistics would be top of the list for most revolutionaries.

Depends on how wide the revolution has spread, for example if railway workers are on board then revolutionaries could have freight trains on their supply lines.



2. Surely after the first day or so and the government considered the revolutionary a significant threat they would call in the armed forces, etc. I wouldnt like to be the guy on the forklift when tanks start shooting at it

True but they could still build barricades at the a point and maintain tracks to keep freight trains for the revolution rolling after sabotage and battle damage.




3. Further into the revolution we would probaly of captured/aquired/stole mote advanced weaponry which could be utilised more effectively

True but like above forklifts probably remain useful on rear lines and building barricades.





4. They're very big and could cause a problem for our own; I wouldn't like to see the revolution crushed by friendly fire.
Although I think forklifts could be used in certain situations in the first day, I don't believe the history books would be saying the revolution was won by forklifts.
True.

[Chambered Word]

Yeah, because I really meant that seriously.

It was pretty hard to tell. My bad.

[bcbm]

First off just because someone is a experienced revolutionary

anyone who would consider themselves an "experienced revolutionary" probably isn't, or at least shouldn't be given anything resembling power.


does not mean they are no longer part of working class. The vanguard is part of the working class they just the most advanced part of the working class.odd they go to such lengths to separate "the vanguard" from "the workers" at every step, then.


Next history has shown the bulk of the working class is usually slow to catchup with the vanguard thus are very naive again like Argentina militant workers going through the bourgeoisie legal system to try and justify they seizing of the means of production then getting distracted by elections all because there was no a strong vanguard to correct the proletariat when they are in error. how does this vanguard "correct" them?

If the proletariat was as class conscious as you suggested we never need picket lines to stop less conscious workers from scabbing. The problem is proletariat even when mobilized against the bourgeoisie clings onto a significant amount of dogma thought to them by the bourgeoisie during the critical revolutionary phase and the vanguard has block all democratic decision that comes from bourgeoisie indoctrination of the proletariat and replace it with decisions that actually have a chance in succeeding in bringing about communism.so they cling to bourgeois dogma, but they'll also gladly listen to people who claim to represent their interests (while calling them too dumb to realize them)? makes perfect sense.

[Psy]

anyone who would consider themselves an "experienced revolutionary" probably isn't, or at least shouldn't be given anything resembling power.

By that logic any worker that actually experienced a revolution should have no input regarding how to win and avoid the mistakes of the past. Taken to its logical conclusion it means even in the workplace experienced workers should not be anything resembling power, for example if skilled workers say a plan is physically impossible yet they are out voted by the ignorant majority we get avoidable waste all because you have a democracy that values the vote of experienced workers the same of workers that have no idea what they are talking about.



odd they go to such lengths to separate "the vanguard" from "the workers" at every step, then.

They don't, not those that stay true to Marx and Trotsky and simply views the vanguard as only being advanced of the class in general and primary role being the memory of the proletariat. For example I highly doubt many workers in the USA right now experiencing the current crisis has any memory of the 1877 labor uprising, thus most likely will repeat the exact same mistakes making simply giving workers direct democracy illogical as it would be fastest way to derail to revolution.



how does this vanguard "correct" them?
so they cling to bourgeois dogma, but they'll also gladly listen to people who claim to represent their interests (while calling them too dumb to realize them)? makes perfect sense.
By being the teacher of the rest of the proletariat, the vanguard won't just overrule the rest of the proletariat but explain the error in logic of the rest of the proletariat. For example overruling the rest of the proletariat in wanting reform and negotiating with the capitalists and explaining to the workers why any negotiations with capitalists once a revolution is kicked off is always a very bad idea.

[bcbm]

one page ago you said the vanguard would be making the decisions. which is it?

[Psy]

one page ago you said the vanguard would be making the decisions. which is it?
Both, direct democracy is not useful in every situation for example if we want to know we don't hold a vote to decide if we should treat women as equals.

Same when it comes to revolution, we don't ask the majority what is wrong with capitalism as we already know by reading Marx why capitalism is not working for the proletariat. That same knowledge means we know reform won't solve the grievances of the proletariat and they will only be solved through ending the capitalist mode of production.

That is not to say we don't care what the rest of the proletariat wants, thus why a major role of the vanguard is to teach the rest of proletariat so their understanding can catch up with ours. It just means we won't let them commit mass suicide out of their naivety just because we were did not want to take use our knowledge to defend the revolution even from the ignorance of the proletariat.

[bcbm]

i don't recall saying anything about direct democracy or voting.

[Psy]

i don't recall saying anything about direct democracy or voting.
:confused:

Then how do you suppose the rest of the proletariat make decisions? Do you think they will make their own parties in a time frame relevant to a revolution? By the time they form a party the need for a party would have probably passed.

[Chambered Word]

Both, direct democracy is not useful in every situation for example if we want to know we don't hold a vote to decide if we should treat women as equals.

Why, are workers too backward to make this decision?

[Psy]

Why, are workers too backward to make this decision?
You missing the point, there is not point in even putting it up to a vote. Even if the majority workers think women should be subservient to men the vanguard know better and has no reason to be counter-revolutionary just because the majority of the proletariat is.

Democracy is not a good tool for problem solving, it is a good tool for making choices. For example democracy is no good in deciding how best to put a person on Mars but is good on deciding how much resources we should invest in it.

[Chambered Word]

You missing the point, there is not point in even putting it up to a vote. Even if the majority workers think women should be subservient to men the vanguard know better and has no reason to be counter-revolutionary just because the majority of the proletariat is.

Democracy is not a good tool for problem solving, it is a good tool for making choices. For example democracy is no good in deciding how best to put a person on Mars but is good on deciding how much resources we should invest in it.

So the workers are stupid and will have reactionary attitudes even after carrying out a successful proletarian revolution, and they shouldn't have the right to make choices and only get a say in how these choices and decisions should be carried out?

[Psy]

So the workers are stupid and will have reactionary attitudes even after carrying out a successful proletarian revolution, and they shouldn't have the right to make choices and only get a say in how these choices and decisions should be carried out?
I don't think you understand the difference between problem solving and choices.

Problem solving is finding the most efficient solution to a problem, democracy is not needed in this case and some cases is counter-productive. For example if we want to build a bridge across a river, using democracy to find the best bridge design would not give us the best bridge design, it also would not give us the best construction method for building the bridge.

Choices is the opposite of problem solving as there is no right answer and you can use science to find the best answer, for example engineering can't tell you the point of building the bridge except when part of another engineering problem, in this cause democracy is useful as it finds out what people wants.

Thus even if 100% of the proletariat was part of the vanguard there would be no point in putting everything to a vote, just like there is no point in asking everyone the best way to get from point A to point B instead we either find out through science or ask those with experience in any case democracy plays no role in this case.

To put it simply if it comes to a question if we should trust democracy of science we should put our faith in science we should only put our faith in democracy when science has no option on the matter.

[Chambered Word]

I don't think you understand the difference between problem solving and choices.

Problem solving is finding the most efficient solution to a problem, democracy is not needed in this case and some cases is counter-productive. For example if we want to build a bridge across a river, using democracy to find the best bridge design would not give us the best bridge design, it also would not give us the best construction method for building the bridge.

Choices is the opposite of problem solving as there is no right answer and you can use science to find the best answer, for example engineering can't tell you the point of building the bridge except when part of another engineering problem, in this cause democracy is useful as it finds out what people wants.

Thus even if 100% of the proletariat was part of the vanguard there would be no point in putting everything to a vote, just like there is no point in asking everyone the best way to get from point A to point B instead we either find out through science or ask those with experience in any case democracy plays no role in this case.

To put it simply if it comes to a question if we should trust democracy of science we should put our faith in science we should only put our faith in democracy when science has no option on the matter.

You said this:


Both, direct democracy is not useful in every situation for example if we want to know we don't hold a vote to decide if we should treat women as equals.

Same when it comes to revolution, we don't ask the majority what is wrong with capitalism as we already know by reading Marx why capitalism is not working for the proletariat. That same knowledge means we know reform won't solve the grievances of the proletariat and they will only be solved through ending the capitalist mode of production.

That is not to say we don't care what the rest of the proletariat wants, thus why a major role of the vanguard is to teach the rest of proletariat so their understanding can catch up with ours. It just means we won't let them commit mass suicide out of their naivety just because we were did not want to take use our knowledge to defend the revolution even from the ignorance of the proletariat.

I responded with this:


Why, are workers too backward to make this decision?

What you said about putting equal rights for women to a vote had little to do with the difference between decision making and the process of carrying out decisions, although I concur with the statement you made on it.

[Psy]

You said this:



I responded with this:



What you said about putting equal rights for women to a vote had little to do with the difference between decision making and the process of carrying out decisions, although I concur with the statement you made on it.

It does in the way we already know the correct answer, it would be like holding a debate on when the best to harvest a crop in a certain location in that there is no bloody point science tells us when the best time to harvest followed by experienced farmers with the will of the proletariat being no better then deciding on chance since most of the proletariat are not scientists and not experienced farmers thus would be uneducated guesses.

The vanguard of the proletariat are both, they are the scientists that study the science of revolution, capitalism and class struggle with parts of it having actual experience. Thus to discount the vanguard is a anti-intellectual stance as it is basically saying what do the scientists of revolution know about revolution over the masses of that are still learning from them. It also is anti-experience as it discounts those with hands on experience basically saying workers should not give extra consecration to workers that actually priory experienced class war by making the options of a veteran revolutionary of a failed revolution have the same weight of a young worker that does not even know there were prior revolutions thus making it harder for the revolution to avoid the failures of revolutions of the past as the voices of the past are drowned out.

Here is a though experiment if we could go back in time to a previous revolution with our current knowledge do you think our knowledge should have the same weight as the proletariat of that time? That even though we know what the end result would be that we should allow the revolution to fail in the name of democracy? That is not say in this case the time traveling vanguard would be a dictator as what the proletariat wants within a workers state would be unknown without democracy yet what would be the point of the time traveling vanguard to allow history to repeat itself? Same with vanguard without time travel, while they have to listen to the rest of the proletariat there is no reason to allow the rest proletariat to make mistakes that the vanguard can see are clear errors in judgments.

[bcbm]

:confused:

Then how do you suppose the rest of the proletariat make decisions?

however they want.


when it comes to revolution, we don't ask the majority what is wrong with capitalism as we already know by reading Marx why capitalism is not working for the proletariat.

relying on the words of one man who died over a century ago instead of communicating with real, living human beings... no wonder you hold them in such little regard.


That is not to say we don't care what the rest of the proletariat wants, thus why a major role of the vanguard is to teach the rest of proletariat so their understanding can catch up with ours. It just means we won't let them commit mass suicide out of their naivety just because we were did not want to take use our knowledge to defend the revolution even from the ignorance of the proletariat.

i'm all for communicating with fellow workers on our grievances and explaining my ideas about how to move forward but i don't think i have some sacred knowledge that is infallible because i read some "revolutionary" book or other, and i certainly don't imagine myself as some specialist section of the class because of it. i also strongly doubt that any "vanguard" would lead the workers away from mass suicide, since allowing such a group to lead would already be a step in that direction.

[Psy]

relying on the words of one man who died over a century ago instead of communicating with real, living human beings... no wonder you hold them in such little regard.

We are talking about a science here, Marx has yet to be disproven through the scientific method, in fact as science has advanced it actually now proves Marx theories are highly probable, which is a reason why bourgeoisie economic theories are no longer seen as a proper science. Most of the scientific community has embraced LTV to explain not only how value works in a human context but as a total concept in the form of ETV (Energy Theory of Value) that simply replaces labor to that of energy reliant to the specimen in question.

So it not relying on Marx but relying on the scientific understanding of capitalism, class and revolution available at the time.



i'm all for communicating with fellow workers on our grievances and explaining my ideas about how to move forward but i don't think i have some sacred knowledge that is infallible because i read some "revolutionary" book or other, and i certainly don't imagine myself as some specialist section of the class because of it. i also strongly doubt that any "vanguard" would lead the workers away from mass suicide, since allowing such a group to lead would already be a step in that direction.
This assumes all workers are knowledgeable in what they know and don't know. It also assumes proletariat with scientific knowledge of revolution, class and value that leads other workers would always lead them to destruction. Which is anti-intellectual as it paints those that study capitalism, class and revolution as counter-revolutionaries simply because they want to use their knowledge to avoid capitalists from taking advantage of workers ignorant of capitalism, class and revolution.

[bcbm]

We are talking about a science here,

if you say so, but typically science evolves over time as new evidence or conditions arise and are worked in to its conclusions.



This assumes all workers are knowledgeable in what they know and don't know.

i think communism must be a project of self-interest undertaken by the exploited, yes.


It also assumes proletariat with scientific knowledge of revolution, class and value that leads other workers would always lead them to destruction.

well, so far workers submitting to leaders who have claimed to uphold their interests hasn't worked out too well. it doesn't necessarily mean they will be lead to destruction, but i think workers leading themselves makes more sense than being lead by specialists.


Which is anti-intellectual as it paints those that study capitalism, class and revolution as counter-revolutionaries simply because they want to use their knowledge to avoid capitalists from taking advantage of workers ignorant of capitalism, class and revolution.

i've already stated that there is a role for those who study blah blah blah, i just don't think it is exercising leadership over the class.

[Sam_b]

Is this thread still here?

[Psy]

if you say so, but typically science evolves over time as new evidence or conditions arise and are worked in to its conclusions.

Right and new evidence has reaffirmed Marx's theory's, for example the overall trend for the rate of profit to fall has been proven to exist using current data, data that Marx never had access to and of course Marx never had access to spread sheets to calculate the average rate of profit.



i think communism must be a project of self-interest undertaken by the exploited, yes.

That has nothing to do with workers knowing what they know and don't know. For example if workers thinks Ayn Rand will solve their problems we don't allow them to make that mistake.



well, so far workers submitting to leaders who have claimed to uphold their interests hasn't worked out too well. it doesn't necessarily mean they will be lead to destruction, but i think workers leading themselves makes more sense than being lead by specialists.

Actually it has been the opposite, for revolution that failed with vanguard there are many many many many more that failed due to the lack of organization that had no vanguard thus workers were easily tricked by the bourgeoisie for example the workers of Paris in 1968 or of Argentina in 2003




i've already stated that there is a role for those who study blah blah blah, i just don't think it is exercising leadership over the class.
It is not that simply. Lets say a bunch of kids want to swim in waters with deep undertow, you are the only adult. Do you yield to democratic will and allow them to drown or use you knowledge of what will probably happen to overrule them?

Same thing with a vanguard, the majority of the proletariat in a revolution are like kids, they are just learning thus why in Paris 1968 you had so many classes and debates in the Sorbonne University during the uprising.

So we have a dilemma either we postpone all decisions till about a year after the revolution starts so the proletariat has sufficient knowledge to make logical decisions or have the vanguard act as a safety to overrule the rest of the proletariat when need be till the proletariat has gained sufficient knowledge

[bcbm]

Right and new evidence has reaffirmed Marx's theory's, for example the overall trend for the rate of profit to fall has been proven to exist using current data, data that Marx never had access to and of course Marx never had access to spread sheets to calculate the average rate of profit.

capitalism has changed just a wee bit since marx's time.


That has nothing to do with workers knowing what they know and don't know. For example if workers thinks Ayn Rand will solve their problems we don't allow them to make that mistake.

how do you "not allow them?"


Actually it has been the opposite, for revolution that failed with vanguard there are many many many many more that failed due to the lack of organization that had no vanguard thus workers were easily tricked by the bourgeoisie for example the workers of Paris in 1968 or of Argentina in 2003

again, i think this is a vast oversimplification.


Same thing with a vanguard, the majority of the proletariat in a revolution are like kids, they are just learning thus why in Paris 1968 you had so many classes and debates in the Sorbonne University during the uprising.

So we have a dilemma either we postpone all decisions till about a year after the revolution starts so the proletariat has sufficient knowledge to make logical decisions or have the vanguard act as a safety to overrule the rest of the proletariat when need be till the proletariat has gained sufficient knowledge

i think we have entirely different views of revolution and how to get there and i don't see much point in continuing this (like i said a page ago).

[Psy]

capitalism has changed just a wee bit since marx's time.

Not at its core logic, and the relationships have not changed either.



how do you "not allow them?"

By preventing a libertarian mode of production to function through control of strategic means of production. For example now giving libertarian factories any electricity till it yields to the authority of the committee running the revolution (which would mean them stop being libertarians).



again, i think this is a vast oversimplification.

Then why did workers naively negotiate with the bourgeoisie system, why do they still naively negotiate with the bourgeoisie system?




i think we have entirely different views of revolution and how to get there and i don't see much point in continuing this (like i said a page ago).
I don't see a revolution as the end, I see the end as the end of capitalism and establishment of world communism.

[bcbm]

Not at its core logic, and the relationships have not changed either.

enough has happened that i think it is a mistake to rely solely on marx.


By preventing a libertarian mode of production to function through control of strategic means of production. For example now giving libertarian factories any electricity till it yields to the authority of the committee running the revolution (which would mean them stop being libertarians).wow.


Then why did workers naively negotiate with the bourgeoisie system, why do they still naively negotiate with the bourgeoisie system?why indeed since there were plenty of marxists around telling them not to.

and if they're so stupid, why would they listen to a vanguard anyway?


I don't see a revolution as the end, I see the end as the end of capitalism and establishment of world communism.so?

[Psy]

enough has happened that i think it is a mistake to rely solely on marx.

That is true but Marx is a solid base in understanding capitalism just like Newton is a solid base in understanding physics.



why indeed since there were plenty of marxists around telling them not to.

Not really, Marxist was there but the science of Marx didn't have a great enough presence. There was no revolutionary community telling the proletariat that their actions will most likely lead to them being right back where they started as the best case scenario.



and if they're so stupid, why would they listen to a vanguard anyway?

Not stupid, naive and ignorant. Meaning they simply lack experience and knowledge.



so?
It meaning the revolution itself is simply a means to a greater end.

[Psy]

Again we have the use of Molotovs in protests showing that there is no logical control of escalation of violence of the average worker.

I just don't see the point of hostility towards the idea of having a military doctrine for class warfare already in place beforehand since every army in the history of warfare that has waited till hostilities has begun to form a doctrine has failed horribly on the battlefield as will every revolutionary army that waits for revolution before developing its military doctrines, a primary example would be our horrible military failure in the Spanish civil war due to a massive lack of having coherent military strategy and tactic or Paris May 1968 where we wasted a good opportunity to crush the state because we lacked a coherent military command to direct our forces against the weak point in the state forces.

We can't simply ignore military strategy and tactics as our enemies will just take advantage of our complete lack of strategy and tactics again like the Spanish civil war and before you pin the failure of the Spanish civil war soley on the Stalinists if there was a rigged revolutionary army command the Stalinists would not have been able to derail the revolution as decisions would have come from only inside the revolutionary army not the parties and the revolutionary army would have been soley focused on winning the war by any means nessary thus would have overrulled the authority of the Stainlists and even the Trots and Anarchists when it came to military strategy and tactics as the parties would have no say in the matter till the revoltionary army completed its task of driving both the facists and capitalists from Spain.

[bcbm]

That is true but Marx is a solid base in understanding capitalism just like Newton is a solid base in understanding physics.

which is why i am not saying to ignore marx completely, but rather to not only read marx and think that is enough.


Not really, Marxist was there but the science of Marx didn't have a great enough presence. There was no revolutionary community telling the proletariat that their actions will most likely lead to them being right back where they started as the best case scenario.

uh, there were plenty of marxist revolutionaries on the streets and in the assemblies arguing exactly what you're saying.


Not stupid, naive and ignorant. Meaning they simply lack experience and knowledge.

so do most "revolutionaries."


It meaning the revolution itself is simply a means to a greater end.

so?


Again we have the use of Molotovs in protests showing that there is no logical control of escalation of violence of the average worker.

what?


I just don't see the point of hostility towards the idea of having a military doctrine for class warfare already in place beforehand

firstly because communism and the struggle for it is a social struggle, not a military struggle and our ability to win lies in our ability to paralyze the economy and transform social relations, not in how many guns we have. second because we have no way of knowing what the conditions will be when we actually enter a revolutionary situation and will have to create plans on the spot anyway, especially as more and more individuals enter the struggle against the state.


every revolutionary army that waits for revolution before developing its military doctrines

we don't have a revolutionary army. and we never should. if the struggle becomes a conventional military struggle, then we have already lost.


Paris May 1968 where we wasted a good opportunity to crush the state because we lacked a coherent military command to direct our forces against the weak point in the state forces.

:rolleyes:

[Psy]

which is why i am not saying to ignore marx completely, but rather to not only read marx and think that is enough.

No argument here



uh, there were plenty of marxist revolutionaries on the streets and in the assemblies arguing exactly what you're saying.

Not in positions of authority, even the bourgeoisie trade unions had more authority then Marxists.



so do most "revolutionaries."

If revolutionaries lack knowledge and experience then so does the mass of the proletariat.



what?

Molotovs were used in recent protests, as I said this shows the lack of any logical military doctrine within the average worker.




firstly because communism and the struggle for it is a social struggle, not a military struggle and our ability to win lies in our ability to paralyze the economy and transform social relations, not in how many guns we have. second because we have no way of knowing what the conditions will be when we actually enter a revolutionary situation and will have to create plans on the spot anyway, especially as more and more individuals enter the struggle against the state.

we don't have a revolutionary army. and we never should. if the struggle becomes a conventional military struggle, then we have already lost.

Then victory is impossible as the bourgeoisie will always escalate the class war into a armed struggle and they have enough stockpiles that even if all the workers occupied 100% of the means of production the military could still operate long enough to crush the revolution through violence.

There can't be a successful revolution without a revolutionary army to protect it militarily and to defeat the military capabilities of both the bourgeoisie and reactionaries. The Nazis showed there is real chance of that the reactionaries might fight to the death, the Nazis scorched policy against Germans proved they might be willing to attack means of production in the hands of the proletariat for example we might occupy Detroit and a fascist US state could just carpet bomb Detroit yet a revolutionary army could defend Detroit from air attacks if factory produce SAMs effective enough to shoot down bombers and if not the revolutionary army could stop the bombing by launching strikes against the air bases.

As for not knowing the conditions, armies never really know the conditions of future wars, doctrines are there to try and plan for every contingency we can so when we know the conditions we hopefully have thought of it.

[Os Cangaceiros]

No argument here
There can't be a successful revolution without a revolutionary army to protect it militarily and to defeat the military capabilities of both the bourgeoisie and reactionaries. The Nazis showed there is real chance of that the reactionaries might fight to the death, the Nazis scorched policy against Germans proved they might be willing to attack means of production in the hands of the proletariat for example we might occupy Detroit and a fascist US state could just carpet bomb Detroit yet a revolutionary army could defend Detroit from air attacks if factory produce SAMs effective enough to shoot down bombers and if not the revolutionary army could stop the bombing by launching strikes against the air bases.

At which point (using your logic) the fascist U.S. government will simply hit Detroit with a hydrogen bomb launched from a Trident submarine or ground base.

[Psy]

At which point (using your logic) the fascist U.S. government will simply hit Detroit with a hydrogen bomb launched from a Trident submarine or ground base.

I don't think fascists are that crazy, well at least I don't they are in the US military bureaucracy, so the crazy bread of fascists would probably have to have usurped the entire US military bureaucracy.

[bcbm]

No argument here

tight


Not in positions of authority, even the bourgeoisie trade unions had more authority then Marxists.

but somehow this will be different "next time?"


If revolutionaries lack knowledge and experience then so does the mass of the proletariat.

presumably we will all lack the knowledge and experience necessary to bring humanity to communism until we collectively bring humanity to communism.


Molotovs were used in recent protests, as I said this shows the lack of any logical military doctrine within the average worker.

what protests? how do you know it was "average workers?" what does this have to do with military doctrine?


Then victory is impossible as the bourgeoisie will always escalate the class war into a armed struggle and they have enough stockpiles that even if all the workers occupied 100% of the means of production the military could still operate long enough to crush the revolution through violence.

the military will not be isolated from the social force pushing for communism.


There can't be a successful revolution without a revolutionary army to protect it militarily and to defeat the military capabilities of both the bourgeoisie and reactionaries.

on the contrary, there cannot be a successful revolution without enough social force to render the military capabilities of both the bourgeoisie and the reactionaries meaningless.


for example we might occupy Detroit and a fascist US state could just carpet bomb Detroit yet a revolutionary army could defend Detroit from air attacks if factory produce SAMs effective enough to shoot down bombers and if not the revolutionary army could stop the bombing by launching strikes against the air bases.

fap fap fap fap


As for not knowing the conditions, armies never really know the conditions of future wars, doctrines are there to try and plan for every contingency we can so when we know the conditions we hopefully have thought of it.

well let's take some advice from the past...
"to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

[DanielASRP]

I got my FL license so i can help out

[Psy]

but somehow this will be different "next time?"

Hopefully it will be different next time



presumably we will all lack the knowledge and experience necessary to bring humanity to communism until we collectively bring humanity to communism.

My point is that those studying capitalism, class and revolution would have a better idea of even what is going on then the workers just starting to become class conscious.



what protests? how do you know it was "average workers?" what does this have to do with military doctrine?

Those in Greece, and there is no central revolutionary authority thus even if a minority there it is not from a coherent vanguard as there is no coherent vanguard.

It has to do with military doctrine as they are engaged in warfare with the police thus this is a matter for military tactics and strategy.



the military will not be isolated from the social force pushing for communism.

Not all of the military, there are fascists in the US military and I doubt we could ever turn them. They probably would become terrorists after a workers revolution since US fascists have resorted to terrorism against US Jews on US soil so I don't see why they stop short of terrorism against us just because we defeated the capitalists.




on the contrary, there cannot be a successful revolution without enough social force to render the military capabilities of both the bourgeoisie and the reactionaries meaningless.

You don't give revolutionary armies much credit, also your talking about a utopian condition and like I said above the military had fascists in it that will never defect to our side as they are hard line fascists.




fap fap fap fap

April 26, 1937 Guernica, so it is possible for bombers to be used against us.




well let's take some advice from the past...
"to fight and conquer in all your battlesis not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
Not going to happen since hardline facists have shown their resolve to fight to the death during the fall of the third reich.

[Honggweilo]

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/tdomf/128309/polandball_mech_2-515x700.jpg

[Chambered Word]

^I lol'd.

[AK]

Why don't we just drive into the Bourgeoisie and make kebabs out of them?

[Pirate Utopian]

You guys dont spam, this is a serious thread.

[Kléber]

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/1470/toforklift.jpg

[Lyev]

You should all order this right away, it's definitely recommendable. I'm waiting for the armour and machine guns expansion pack.
http://i062.radikal.ru/0908/21/8dc7428cfbe7.jpg

[Kléber]

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/4849/stalinforks.jpg

[Os Cangaceiros]

Wow. When did this thread become awesome?

[Psy]

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/4849/stalinforks.jpg
Even with Stalin (that I'm not a fan of) that looks awesome.

[ContrarianLemming]

Which the exception of the epic Mass Effect 2 meme "What does Tali's face look like?" this is the best thread ever and deserves to be a meme!

[Pirate Utopian]

You guys, what if the revolution breaks out and we didnt discuss this burning question?

"But what about the forklifts?"
"I... I dont know!"
"The revolution is doomed."

[Chambered Word]

This is the best laugh I've had in a while, I love you RevLeft. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

EDIT: http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=476

[AK]

Forklift Socialists of the World, Unite!

[La Comédie Noire]

We've come so far as a movement since the days of Marx and Engels, all they had were dick jokes.

[Psy]

You guys, what if the revolution breaks out and we didnt discuss this burning question?

"But what about the forklifts?"
"I... I dont know!"
"The revolution is doomed."

I'm thinking

Worker: "Comrade the construction of the barricades is going slowly and the workers are getting exhausted"

Non-Forklifitst:"If only the capitalists mechanized the lifting of heavy objects, damn you uneven development!"

Construction Worker:"What about using those machines at the construction site we used to load/unload flatbeds before the strike?"

Non-Forkliftists: "What forklifts? No that is silly it will escalate our standoff with the police, no it best to simply erect the barricades by hand"

Construction Worker: "Okay I guess but can we at lest move the flatbed here so we don't have to lug the construction material we are looting from the construction site so far"

Non-Forkliftists:"Man you workers are so lazy, can't we use forklifts, can't we move the flatbed with the construction material closer to barricades, like I told you we can't do that because we can't legally park here."

Worker: "And we can legally build a barricade here?"

Construction Worker: "And loot the construction site?

Non Forkliftist: "What are you Forkliftists?"

[RED DAVE]

There is entirely too much forking around on this thread.

RED DAVE

[Dimentio]

This thread is legendary :D

[RED DAVE]

This thread is legendary :D

http://i49.tinypic.com/206h6s8.jpg

:D

RED DAVE

[ContrarianLemming]

lets get some guys in 4chan, craigslist and youtube and make this a meme!

[Chambered Word]

lets get some guys in 4chan, craigslist and youtube and make this a meme!

4chan

youtube

meme

How about no.

[Pirate Utopian]

I'm thinking

Worker: "Comrade the construction of the barricades is going slowly and the workers are getting exhausted"

Non-Forklifitst:"If only the capitalists mechanized the lifting of heavy objects, damn you uneven development!"

Construction Worker:"What about using those machines at the construction site we used to load/unload flatbeds before the strike?"

Non-Forkliftists: "What forklifts? No that is silly it will escalate our standoff with the police, no it best to simply erect the barricades by hand"

Construction Worker: "Okay I guess but can we at lest move the flatbed here so we don't have to lug the construction material we are looting from the construction site so far"

Non-Forkliftists:"Man you workers are so lazy, can't we use forklifts, can't we move the flatbed with the construction material closer to barricades, like I told you we can't do that because we can't legally park here."

Worker: "And we can legally build a barricade here?"

Construction Worker: "And loot the construction site?

Non Forkliftist: "What are you Forkliftists?"
True. Which why we must lift our forks into the sky and unite all forklifters.

[Ocean Seal]

So many hilarious pictures are making me lol again and again:laugh:.

[Sam_b]

This took way too long to get moved to chit-chat.

[AK]

This took way too long to get moved to chit-chat.
Was just thinking that.

[Lyev]

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8899/marxandtheforklifttruck.jpg (http://img163.imageshack.us/i/marxandtheforklifttruck.jpg/).

[An archist]

Wow. When did this thread become awesome?
When Deconditioned Reflex discovered it.

[No pasarán]

warehouse workers of the world, take up your boxcutters and slice off the brown tape of the packaging that subdues the industrial proletarians!

But seriously....






Is this an anarchist variant of the forklift, commrade psy?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Reach_truck.jpg/220px-Reach_truck.jpg

[No pasarán]

I think I found the femminist variant of the future...

http://www.pinktentacle.com/images/power_loader.jpg

[Honggweilo]

True story

One of the leaders of the militant platforms in our trade union, FNV vecht voor je recht, told me an awesome story about class-struggle and forklifts last year.

At the start of the crisis their where major lay-offs and cutback in the petro chemical sector in the Rotterdam and Antwerp harbors. Pensionfunds appeared to be speculated and evaporated by hedgefunds + some american hedgefunds bought out some companies here for tax evation and short term profit-stripping, almost bankrupting these companies.

A big strike followed. When the board of the directors refused to negotiate with the union and strikers, they took matters in their own hands. They waited for a board meeting, and union cadres stormed the meeting. Then some bulky workers blocked all entrances with Forklifts, and wouldnt let them out until a settlement was made. This caused a riot and the employers organisations and media talked about a RAF style hostage situation. Eventually the board directors gave in, fearing enourmous rage about a possible police intervention.

Epic story was epic :thumbup1:

[Honggweilo]

also

ANGRY REVOLUTIONAIRY FORKLIFT MECHS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7z5wtyzc98

[Tyrlop]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=644i5ghacg0
Броня крепка, и танки наши быстры,
И наши люди мужества полны:
В строю стоят советские танкисты -
Своей великой Родины сыны.

Припев:

Гремя огнем, сверкая блеском стали
Пойдут машины в яростный поход,
Когда нас в бой пошлет товарищ Сталин
И Ворошилов в бой нас поведет!

Заводов труд и труд колхозных пашен
Мы защититм, страну свою храня,
Ударной силой орудийных башен
И быстротой, и натиском огня.

Припев.

Пусть помнит враг, укрывшийся в засаде
Мы на чеку, мы за врагом следим.
Чужой земли мы не хотим ни пяди,
Но и своей вершка не отдадим.

Припев.

А если к нам полезет враг матерый,
Он будет бит повсюду и везде!
Тогда нажмут водители стартеры
И по лесам, по сопкам, по воде....

Припев:

Гремя огнем, сверкая блеском стали
Пойдут машины в яростный поход,
Когда нас в бой пошлет товарищ Сталин
И Ворошилов в бой нас поведет!

Вариант военного времени:

Броня крепка, и танки наши быстры,
И наши люди мужества полны.
Громят врагов советские танкисты,
Своей великой армии сыны.

Припев:

Гремя огнем, сверкая блеском стали,
Идут машины в яростный поход.
Нас в грозный бой послал товарищ Сталин,
Любимый маршал смело в бой ведет.

Заводов труд и труд колхозных пашен
Мы защитим, страну свою храня.
Ударной силой орудийных башен
И быстротой и натиском огня.

Припев.

Пусть знает враг итог борьбы великой:
Народ — герой никем непобедим!
Мы смерть несем фашистской банде дикой,
Мы от фашизма мир освободим!

Припев.

Сгорит в огне свободы враг матерый,
Он будет бит повсюду и везде!
На полный газ работают моторы
И по лесам, оврагам и воде.

Припев

[Honggweilo]

and this is why people dont like you tyrlop

[Tyrlop]

and this is why people dont like you tyrlop

I made special version for you: http://www.uploadmusic.org/MUSIC/9580111274896966.mp3
All we need is to change the lyrics so that this song will be perfect for Forklift battles.

[Psy]

True story

One of the leaders of the militant platforms in our trade union, FNV vecht voor je recht, told me an awesome story about class-struggle and forklifts last year.

At the start of the crisis their where major lay-offs and cutback in the petro chemical sector in the Rotterdam and Antwerp harbors. Pensionfunds appeared to be speculated and evaporated by hedgefunds + some american hedgefunds bought out some companies here for tax evation and short term profit-stripping, almost bankrupting these companies.

A big strike followed. When the board of the directors refused to negotiate with the union and strikers, they took matters in their own hands. They waited for a board meeting, and union cadres stormed the meeting. Then some bulky workers blocked all entrances with Forklifts, and wouldnt let them out until a settlement was made. This caused a riot and the employers organisations and media talked about a RAF style hostage situation. Eventually the board directors gave in, fearing enourmous rage about a possible police intervention.

Epic story was epic :thumbup1:
Very epic

[Lyev]

and this is why people dont like you tyrlopAnd this is precisely why I love him :wub:

[No pasarán]

And this is precisely why I love him :wub:
Why cos he's mad as a hatter?

[Angry Young Man]

Has anyone said of course they'd be useful in a confrontation with the police if they're available. You have to be able to turn your environment to your advantage, and if dockers are occupying their work place, then of course. Cranes too. Ooh, ports are good places to start a rebellion. No wonder the left-wing cities in the UK were Glasgow and Liverpool.

[Jeoh]

Arise, ye workers from ye forklifts... You could use them as a quick platform for speeches as well I suppose.

[Angry Young Man]

Or go through police car engines with the forks, or flip the cars up. You'll never get to be a ninja if you can't use your surroundings as a weapon, boy!

[Tyrlop]

Or go through police car engines with the forks, or flip the cars up. You'll never get to be a ninja if you can't use your surroundings as a weapon, boy!
According to this realistic simulation computer game the forklift iis bounded to fail against cops.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSo8Lwm8aG4
i wouldn't be the man inside that forklift :(

[Chambered Word]

Can you have labour uprisings on GTA IV as well? :lol:

[Angry Young Man]

Probably, but with the kind of dynamic they're trying to create, the unions'll be horrifically corrupt mafia rackets

[Pirate Utopian]

To be fair the forklift was on fire and woulde surely explode after the fade out meaning those cops are dead.

[Jeoh]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4276348&id=111142118615

Yes! Finally I'll be able to download Forklift Simulator 2009 and put my theory into practice.

[Tyrlop]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4276348&id=111142118615

Yes! Finally I'll be able to download Forklift Simulator 2009 and put my theory into practice.
OMG IS THIS FOR REAL!
if every revolutionary had this game! we would be able to prepare for the revolution, at least an half an hour a day should do it!
can you imagine an army of forklifts smashing the capitalists?!

[ContrarianLemming]

gentlemen, we have now entered the revleft meme stage.

congratulations

[Angry Young Man]

gentlemen, we have now entered the revleft meme stage.

congratulations

Where have you been? There's been a fuck-ton of memes on RL

[Pirate Utopian]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4276348&id=111142118615
Those games look horrifyingly boring.

[Jeoh]

Those games look horrifyingly boring.

Dude. Destruction Simulator. Farming Simulator. Tow Truck Simulator.If you buy the entire package we'll have world revolution in no time.

[AK]

According to this realistic simulation computer game the forklift iis bounded to fail against cops.
GSo8Lwm8aG4
i wouldn't be the man inside that forklift :(
Somehow I don't think the police cars are going to be swarming all over us like zombies in an apocalypse.

[Rusty Shackleford]

my response to this thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7mR_oRUdvE

[ContrarianLemming]

Where have you been? There's been a fuck-ton of memes on RL

I know, and this is a new one

[Angry Young Man]

I don't see it catching on. Not like Neon avatars

[Qayin]

psy needs to post more :(

[AK]

Not like Neon avatars
That died long ago. The thread isn't even active anymore.

[ContrarianLemming]

That died long ago. The thread isn't even active anymore.

Lets start a new yakov smirnoff meme
While we're at it, let's add to the whole anarcho trot thing..c'mon we can expand on it!

[Sam_b]

Do you mean 'expand it' to actually be funny?

[ContrarianLemming]

Do you mean 'expand it' to actually be funny?

If I imagine your voice as being like Brians (your avatar brian) gay cousin Jasper, then even your comments can be funny, and if I can do that, I can do anythang.

[Tyrlop]

If I imagine your voice as being like Brians (your avatar brian) gay cousin Jasper, then even your comments can be funny, and if I can do that, I can do anythang.
some people know him so well that they imagine his real voice. then the old grumpy man is different.

[Angry Young Man]

Lets start a new yakov smirnoff meme!

Let's not.


That died long ago. The thread isn't even active anymore.

It was still a successful meme. You can't really expand the forklift truck.

[AK]

It was still a successful meme. You can't really expand the forklift truck.
I never said this thread wasn't dead.

But you bring a good point, this thread is as dead as anything.

[Angry Young Man]

I wasn't talking about this thread being dead. I just don't think the usefulness of forklift trucks will embed in general chit chat culture. That said, Sam B's member title is 'Comrades, to your forklifts!'

[AK]

I wasn't talking about this thread being dead. I just don't think the usefulness of forklift trucks will embed in general chit chat culture. That said, Sam B's member title is 'Comrades, to your forklifts!'
...Aeon135 is a self-styled "Forklift Anarchist", I'm an Anarcho-Forkliftist and Lewis is a Marxist-Leninist-Forkliftist.

[Angry Young Man]

Yeah, but you see, only Sam's thing was funny. Maybe if you manage a group called 'Forklift drivers' it can become a new tendency.

[AK]

Yeah, but you see, only Sam's thing was funny. Maybe if you manage a group called 'Forklift drivers' it can become a new tendency.
Mine was never intended to be funny. I'm just a dull person that caught on to a minor (even by RL standards) meme. And there's a Forkliftists tendency already, so Forklift drivers might be a little redundant.

[Chambered Word]

Yeah, but you see, only Sam's thing was funny. Maybe if you manage a group called 'Forklift drivers' it can become a new tendency.

Fucking splitters...

[RedScare]

I ignored this thread as long as I could, but when I saw it reached 9 pages, I had to check. You have no idea how thankful I am that this thread wasn't you guys discussing the OP for nine pages.

[ContrarianLemming]

I ignored this thread as long as I could, but when I saw it reached 9 pages, I had to check. You have no idea how thankful I am that this thread wasn't you guys discussing the OP for nine pages.

The first 5 pages were.
Quite passionatly and seriously at times
funking funny

[AK]

I ignored this thread as long as I could, but when I saw it reached 9 pages, I had to check. You have no idea how thankful I am that this thread wasn't you guys discussing the OP for nine pages.
I've changed my settings so it's only 5 pages :thumbup1:

[piet11111]

Let's not.



It was still a successful meme. You can't really expand the forklift truck.

Sure you can just extend it with bulldozers or cranes.