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A.R.Amistad
21st April 2010, 16:55
I've seen a lot of comrades have been confused on the difference between a "government" and a state. I thought I'd post these definitions from MIA to help clarify for anyone who wanted to know the difference between the two, and how one can have a government in a stateless society:

MIA

State
The state is the institution of organised violence which is used by the ruling class (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/c/l.htm#class) of a country to maintain the conditions of its rule. Thus, it is only in a society which is divided between hostile social classes that the state exists:

“The state is a product and a manifestation of the irreconcilability of class antagonisms. The state arises where, when and insofar as class antagonism objectively cannot be reconciled. And, conversely, the existence of the state proves that the class antagonisms are irreconcilable.” [Lenin, 1917, The State and Revolution (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/ch01.htm#s1)]

Since the objective of socialism (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/s/o.htm#socialism) is the self-emancipation of the working class and the overthrow of capitalism, the first task of the proletariat is conquest of state power:

“the first step in the revolution by the working class is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class to win the battle of democracy. The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the state, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.” [Communist Manifesto, Chapter 2 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm)]

The machinery of violence that the bourgeoisie has selected, trained and appointed for the purpose of hoodwinking and crushing the workers can hardly be of much use to the working class however:

“the working class cannot simply lay hold of the ready-made state machinery, and wield it for its own purposes. ... The first decree of the Commune, therefore, was the suppression of the standing army, and the substitution for it of the armed people.” [Marx, Civil War in France (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/civil-war-france/ch05.htm)]

While the conquest of state power is necessary to prevent the capitalists from restoring capitalism and to create the conditions for a genuinely free association of producers:

“Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.” [Critique of the Gotha Program, Chapter 4 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch04.htm)]

The workers’ state is however quite a different kind of thing as compared to the bourgeois state. The whole point is to do away with the exploitation of person by person and do away with class divisions, and do away, therefore, with any need for a state:

“When at last it becomes the real representative of the whole of society, it renders itself unnecessary. As soon as there is no longer any social class to be held in subjection; as soon as class rule, and the individual struggle for existence based upon our present anarchy in production, with the collisions and excesses arising from these, are removed, nothing more remains to be repressed, and a special repressive force, a state, is no longer necessary. The first act by virtue of which the state really constitutes itself the representative of the whole of society – the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society – this is, at the same time, its last independent act as a state. State interference in social relations becomes, in one domain after another, superfluous, and then dies out of itself; the government of persons is replaced by the administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production. The state is not “abolished”. It withers away.” [Frederick Engels Anti-Dühring (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/ch24.htm#054), Part III, Ch. 2]

Historical Development: In Tribal Society (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/t/r.htm#tribal-society), the division of labour (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/d/i.htm#division-labour) was organised generally around gender and age and family ties, and no special organisation of violence was required to enforce these relations. In tribal society, people produced only just enough to keep themselves and their community, and did not produce any surplus (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/s/u.htm#surplus-value), so there was little room for exploitation.
Increases in the productivity of labour arising from the development of agriculture opened the possibility for slavery. With the influx of outsiders into the ancient cities, or as a result of conquests, large numbers of slaves were acquired. Slaves could be made to work and a surplus extracted form their labour, and this meant that for the first time, a special organisation of violence, a state, was necessary.
Thus Slave Society (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/s/l.htm#slave-society) created a state for the purpose of keeping the slaves in check; the slaves lay outside society and had no rights, and were counted as property in just the same way as the livestock.

“The increase of production in all branches – cattle-raising, agriculture, domestic handicrafts – gave human labour-power the capacity to produce a larger product than was necessary for its maintenance. At the same time it increased the daily amount of work to be done by each member of the gens, household community or single family. It was now desirable to bring in new labour forces. War provided them; prisoners of war were turned into slaves. With its increase of the productivity of labour, and therefore of wealth, and its extension of the field of production, the first great social division of labour was bound, in the general historical conditions prevailing, to bring slavery in its train. From the first great social division of labour arose the first great cleavage of society into two classes: masters and slaves, exploiters and exploited. [Origin of the Family, Chapter 9 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/origin-family/ch09.htm)]

After the collapse of slave society, Feudal Society (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/f/e.htm#feudal-society) grew up in Europe, Asia and elsewhere. Here an organisation of violence was needed for defence against outsiders, in just the same way as the tribe had had to defend itself against invaders. However, this organisation for self-defence grew up on the basis of agriculture and a much more developed, class-based division of labour. Feudal society was characterised by an immensely developed class structure built around kinship relations.- Kings, Princes, Barons, Bishops, Monks, Yeomen and Serfs, each had their own, though by no means equal, rights and obligations, including property (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/p/r.htm#property) and well-defined rights of inheritance.

The important thing about feudal society is that the state did not appear to stand above society; feudal society was in a sense one big state, a hierarchy in which everyone had their place, both king and serf; the king and his yeomen were an integral part of the state. The relation of every person to the state was defined through kinship relations just as was their role in the social division of labour.

With the expansion of trade, a class of merchants, with ever increasing wealth, embryonic capital, accumulated outside the feudal system. The introduction of sheep and cattle grazing pushed millions of peasants off their land, to wander the countryside as paupers. Processes of this kind brought about a “bourgeois society (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/b/o.htm#bourgeois-society)” in the midst of feudal society as a realm of economic activity lying outside feudal right, unregulated by the ethics (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/e/t.htm#ethics) and traditional relations of feudal society, and laid the basis for the Industrial Revolution.

The vast network of kinship relations characteristic of feudal society was shattered; on the one side remained the family, which still survives in the residual nuclear family household of today; on the other, was the political pinnacle of feudal society, the kingly state. This state was successively weakened and undermined by the growth of bourgeois society.
The bourgeoisie had to break the power of the feudal state in order to develop trade and industry and to protect their own class interests, and the first bourgeois revolution was Oliver Cromwell’s English Revolution of 1640; later came the French Revolution of 1789. There was of course nothing democratic or peaceful about these revolutions, by means of which the conditions for capitalist accumulation were created.

Bourgeois theory of the State: The bourgeois theory of the state was developed by Thomas Hobbes (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/people/h/o.htm#hobbes-thomas), who saw the state as necessary to prevent society descending into “a war of all against all (http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/en/decive1.htm#115)”. For John Locke (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/people/l/o.htm#locke-john), the role of the state was to preserve property and personal freedom. Jean-Jacques Rousseau (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/people/r/o.htm#rousseau-jean-jacques) held that the state was based on a social contract (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/s/o.htm#social-contract) binding all members of a society, while Hegel (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/people/h/e.htm#hegel) saw the state as an expression of the Universal Will and opposed the idea of the state as a guardian of property, which he saw as the role of Civil Society (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/c/i.htm#civil-society). Hegel, in his Philosophy of Right (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/pr/prconten.htm), pointed out that the state expressed the conflicts in “civil society”, and its separation from the family and civil society was characteristic of the emergence of modern (i.e. bourgeois) society. For Hegel, the State was the “March of Reason in the World”.
In his Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/critique-hpr/ch05.htm#050), the young Marx criticised Hegel’s conception as the “society of mutual reconciliation” and insisted that the conflict between labour and capital could not be reconciled and that the state was therefore necessarily an expression of the dominant forces within bourgeois society – capital (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/c/a.htm#capital).

So under capitalism, a special organisation of violence is required to maintain the conditions of legalised theft on which capitalism is based. This state must give the appearance of standing above the conflicts of bourgeois society.

“In possession of the public power and the right of taxation, the officials now present themselves as organs of society standing above society. The free, willing respect accorded to the organs of the gentile constitution is not enough for them, even if they could have it. Representatives of a power which estranges them from society, they have to be given prestige by means of special decrees, which invest them with a peculiar sanctity and inviolability. The lowest police officer of the civilised state has more “authority” than all the organs of gentile society put together; but the mightiest prince and the greatest statesman or general of civilisation might envy the humblest of the gentile chiefs the unforced and unquestioned respect accorded to him. For the one stands in the midst of society; the other is forced to pose as something outside and above it.” [Frederick Engels Origins of the Family, Private Property, and the State (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/origin-family/ch09.htm#3.1)]

The state therefore develops into what appears to be genuinely an expression of the will of the whole people:

“political recognition of property differences is, however, by no means essential. On the contrary, it marks a low stage in the development of the state. The highest form of the state, the democratic republic, which in our modern social conditions becomes more and more an unavoidable necessity and is the form of state in which alone the last decisive battle between proletariat and bourgeoisie can be fought out – the democratic republic no longer officially recognises differences of property. Wealth here employs its power indirectly, but all the more surely. It does this in two ways: by plain corruption of officials, of which America is the classic example, and by an alliance between the government and the stock exchange, which is effected all the more easily the higher the state debt mounts and the more the joint-stock companies concentrate in their hands not only transport but also production itself, and themselves have their own center in the stock exchange. ... And lastly the possessing class rules directly by means of universal suffrage. As long as the oppressed class – in our case, therefore, the proletariat – is not yet ripe for its self-liberation, so long will it, in its majority, recognise the existing order of society as the only possible one and remain politically the tail of the capitalist class, its extreme left wing.” [Origins of the Family (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/origin-family/ch09.htm#3.1)]

The meaning of the working class “winning the battle of democracy” [Communist Manifesto (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm)] is clear then. The working class must be ready for its self-liberation when it overthrows the capitalist state. Once the working class is ready and able to take the power, the parliamentary façade with which the state has surrounded itself will be thrown aside, and workers will face the institution of organised violence which the state has always been from its beginning.

“On the day when the thermometer of universal suffrage shows boiling-point among the workers, they as well as the capitalists will know where they stand.” [Origins of the Family (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/origin-family/ch09.htm#3.1)]

Postmodern (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/p/o.htm#postmodernism) theorists, on the other hand, minimise the significance of the State, generally holding that power has been so decentred by the complexity and freedom of postmodern capitalism that an authoritarian and repressive state is an impossibility. Instead they look to interpersonal relations as the mechanism for oppression (sexism for example, is not enforced so much by a patriarchal state and sexist laws, but by the interpersonal coercion of millions of women by millions of men). This conception is however an illusion possible only for people living in relatively privileged conditions in imperialist countries. The power of the state is obvious to workers having their picket lines busted by police, or Palestinians having their homes blown up by Israeli soldiers.

Marxists refer to this “bourgeois democracy (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/b/o.htm#bourgeois-democracy)”, in which people vote once every four or five years in huge geographical electorates to elect representatives to sit in a legislature which never has a chance of legislating socialism, as dictatorship of the bourgeoisie (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/d/i.htm#dictatorship-bourgeois). Every one has equal rights (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/r/i.htm#right), but everyone does not have equal power. Bourgeois democracy is a façade masking class dictatorship.

“The ancient state was, above all, the state of the slave-owners for holding down the slaves, just as the feudal state was the organ of the nobility for holding down the peasant serfs and bondsmen, and the modern representative state is the instrument for exploiting wage-labour by capital.
“The state has not existed from all eternity. There have been societies which have managed without it, which had no notion of the state or state power. At a definite stage of economic development, which necessarily involved the cleavage of society into classes, the state became a necessity because of this cleavage. We are now rapidly approaching a stage in the development of production at which the existence of these classes has not only ceased to be a necessity, but becomes a positive hindrance to production. They will fall as inevitably as they once arose. The state inevitably falls with them. The society which organises production anew on the basis of free and equal association of the producers will put the whole state machinery where it will then belong – into the museum of antiquities, next to the spinning wheel and the bronze axe.” [Origins of the Family (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/origin-family/ch09.htm#3.1)]

The State and Socialism: When Marx and Engels wrote the Communist Manifesto (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/index.htm) in 1848, they could only sketch the idea of how the working class could achieve public political power and abolish capital in the most general terms:

“The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the state, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class”.
When the Parisian workers actually took power in 1871, Marx could give this conception a more concrete form:
“Paris could resist only because, in consequence of the siege, it had got rid of the army, and replaced it by a National Guard, the bulk of which consisted of working men. This fact was now to be transformed into an institution. The first decree of the Commune, therefore, was the suppression of the standing army, and the substitution for it of the armed people.
“The Commune was formed of the municipal councillors, chosen by universal suffrage in the various wards of the town, responsible and revocable at short terms. The majority of its members were naturally working men, or acknowledged representatives of the working class. The Commune was to be a working, not a parliamentary body, executive and legislative at the same time. ... the public service had to be done at workman’s wage. ...
“The whole of the educational institutions were opened to the people gratuitously, and at the same time cleared of all interference of church and state. Thus, not only was education made accessible to all, but science itself freed from the fetters which class prejudice and governmental force had imposed upon it.
“The judicial functionaries were to be divested of that sham independence which had but served to mask their abject subserviency to all succeeding governments to which, in turn, they had taken, and broken, the oaths of allegiance. Like the rest of public servants, magistrates and judges were to be elective, responsible, and revocable.” [Civil War in France, Chapter 5 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/civil-war-france/ch05.htm)]

Thus Marx saw that the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat was to be in fact the most thoroughgoing proletarian democracy. Proletarian democracy (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/p/r.htm#proletarian-democracy) differed from bourgeois democracy in a number of crucial ways: all positions of authority were elected, and all elected officials were subject to recall at any time, and were paid at the same level of wages as ordinary workers, and above all it was a participatory democracy, that is to say, those who were responsible for carrying out a particular task, at whatever level, were responsible for deciding how it should be done. Free education and free health care would create conditions for all to participate equally.

This thoroughgoing democracy constituted a dictatorship of the proletariat (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/d/i.htm#dictatorship-proletariat) precisely because, stripped of their power to use their money to control parliament and forced to submit to majority vote, not just in elections every few years, but in the workplaces and schools, everywhere, under such conditions the rule of the majority would be not a farce but a reality. The small minority of wealthy capitalists would be prevented, against their will, from exercising the power of money, they would be denied the right that they enjoy under capitalism, to rule the roost.

The Paris Commune (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/civil-war-france/ch05.htm) only lasted a few months before it was drowned in blood by the counter-revolution. Marx criticised the Commune for allowing the reactionaries to escape from Paris and organise the bloodbath, but the world would have to wait till 1917 before we would witness the next occasion when the working class would seize political power – in the Russian Revolution (http://www.marxists.org/history/ussr/events/revolution/index.htm).
The Soviet State was confined within it’s own borders and cut off from trade with the rest of the world – blockaded, invaded and starved. Under these conditions, Stalinism (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/s/t.htm#stalinism) grew up, and destroyed the revolution from within.

The Marxist idea of a state which – having no counter-revolutionary forces and capitalists to suppress, because the power of capital has been eradicated from the face of the Earth – slowly fades away, opening the way to communist society (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/c/o.htm#communism), has yet to be seen, but remains an ideal which inspires millions.

“Whilst the capitalist mode of production more and more completely transforms the great majority of the population into proletarians, it creates the power which, under penalty of its own destruction, is forced to accomplish this revolution. Whilst it forces on more and more the transformation of the vast means of production, already socialised, into state property, it shows itself the way to accomplishing this revolution. The proletariat seizes political power and turns the means of production in the first instance into state property. But, in doing this, it abolishes itself as proletariat, abolishes all class distinctions and class antagonisms, abolishes also the state as state.
“Society thus far, based upon class antagonisms, had need of the state, that is, of an organisation of the particular class, which was pro tempore [for the time being] the exploiting class, for the maintenance of its external conditions of production, and, therefore, especially, for the purpose of forcibly keeping the exploited classes in the condition of oppression corresponding with the given mode of production (slavery, serfdom, wage-labour). The state was the official representative of society as a whole; the gathering of it together into a visible embodiment. But it was this only in so far as it was the state of that class which itself represented, for the time being, society as a whole: in ancient times, the state of slave-owning citizens; in the Middle Ages, the feudal lords; in our own time, the bourgeoisie.” [Frederick Engels, Anti-Dühring, Part III, Ch. 2 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/ch24.htm#054)]
Further Reading: Communist Manifesto (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/index.htm), Anti-Dühring (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/ch24.htm), Origin of the Family, Private Property & the State (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/origin-family/index.htm), Lenin's The State and Revolution (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/index.htm), Hegel's Philosophy of Right (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/pr/prstate.htm#PR257), Critique of the Gotha Program (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/index.htm).



Government
Government is the institution which exercises public political power in society. Government is a fairly vague term, and should be distinguished from the state (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/s/t.htm#state), as understood by Marxists, being the social entity which survives many “changes of government” and includes not only the elected officials of the legislature, but particularly includes the unelected police-military machine, which from time to time throws the parliamentarians into prison.

In the modern era, governments have legitimate legal authority for a finite period of time over a finite geograhical domain. Developments in telecommunications and particularly the internet have made this geographical delimitation of government problematic. States on the other hand recognise no such boundaries and frequently act outside the borders of their home country.

gilhyle
16th May 2010, 22:37
I think this is a really important distinction for Marxists to make....but you dont seem to say where the quote on Government is from ?

Dimentio
17th May 2010, 18:38
Not always could the state be separated from the government. Between the end of antiquity and the middle of the 17th century, no country in western Europe could be claimed to be in possession of a state. In Post-colonial Africa in the 1960's, many of the problems were deepened by the lack of a permanent form of state. Many African nations today would cease to exist in their current form if their governments fell.

gilhyle
17th May 2010, 22:23
Interesting idea - but is it not the case that the State in those countries has no more structure than the army ......still a state

mikelepore
17th May 2010, 23:22
After all the generalities like that of Engels, "... put the whole state machinery ... into the museum of antiquities...", there is still no agreement on exacly what elements of public coercion are supposed to be done away with.

Such generalities rose out of the 19th century utopian tendency, with the belief of that era that a classless society will make literally all antisocial behaviors disappear. It was believed that a classless society will not only be able to get rid of 99 percent of the handcuffs and prison cells, but will be able to get rid of literally 100 percent of them. Today, however, we should be educated enough to realize that it's unscientific to make predictions that we can't justify.

The problem is, even if the number of murders and rapists in the whole world were so few that they could be counted on one hand, society would still require the procedures of compulsion, the legislature to pass laws, the enforcement agency to apprend the violators, the court to determine guilt or innocence, and the prison cell to enclose the violators. Therefore, the most we can claim is that, in a classless society, the tools of coercion will be fewer in quantity and will be detached from any service to a ruling class.

We can further conclude that, after national boundaries are abolished and there is a world government, then military departments and their weapons will be unnecessary.

Since this isn't what the Marxian (or anarchist) literature says about the termination of the state, I believe that the past and present treatment of the subject is a great source of confusion.

Crusade
17th May 2010, 23:48
Not always could the state be separated from the government. Between the end of antiquity and the middle of the 17th century, no country in western Europe could be claimed to be in possession of a state. In Post-colonial Africa in the 1960's, many of the problems were deepened by the lack of a permanent form of state. Many African nations today would cease to exist in their current form if their governments fell.

You mean the same African governments that spend a ridiculous amount of money on weapons while people starve to death?

Zanthorus
18th May 2010, 00:21
I agree with lepore. There is so much confusion surrounding the whole "state" thing that it's become a hindrance to real discussion. If we want to move forward we should start talking about the specific forms of organisation which we percieve as replacing capitalism rather than using confused words like "state" which can have any number of meanings.

Die Rote Fahne
18th May 2010, 02:27
A government is part of "the state".

ZeroNowhere
18th May 2010, 12:05
Such generalities rose out of the 19th century utopian tendency, with the belief of that era that a classless society will make literally all antisocial behaviors disappear. It was believed that a classless society will not only be able to get rid of 99 percent of the handcuffs and prison cells, but will be able to get rid of literally 100 percent of them.I am interested in where Engels said that in a classless society no crime will exist, as I don't see any other manner in which to make such definitive statements about where his views arose.

gilhyle
22nd May 2010, 08:01
One way to look at the distinction is to see the state as a structure and to see the Government as an event/period.

I think it is more useful - at least for Marxists - to see a state as the rule of a certain class and to see the Government as the rule of a certain clique/strata. The latter need not even necessarily be clearly a part of the former. For example in a transition from a capitalist to working class rule there will be a point were a group representative mainly of workers will temporarily hold power within a state which exists on behalf of the bourgeoisie. Such a government will, of course, be very unstable precisely because it 'rules' within a State inimical to it.

Dimentio
22nd May 2010, 12:05
You mean the same African governments that spend a ridiculous amount of money on weapons while people starve to death?

Army =/= State

The main difference is how independent the generals are.

RED DAVE
22nd May 2010, 13:29
One way to look at the distinction is to see the state as a structure and to see the Government as an event/period.This really makes no sense. The government is part of the state. It may be unstable, but it is part of the state. It is not possible to conceive of, in modern society, a state without a government or a government without a state.


I think it is more useful - at least for Marxists - to see a state as the rule of a certain class and to see the Government as the rule of a certain clique/strata.First of all, the state is not "the fule of a certain class." The state is an institution within class society. It is not class society itself, which is far larger than the state.

Second of all, you are confusing the personnel of the government with the government itself. The government is a structure within the state. It's personnel, the clique that controls it, is irrelevant to the purpose of the governement.


The latter need not even necessarily be clearly a part of the former. For example in a transition from a capitalist to working class rule there will be a point were a group representative mainly of workers will temporarily hold power within a state which exists on behalf of the bourgeoisie. Such a government will, of course, be very unstable precisely because it 'rules' within a State inimical to it.This might have been a conception of Marxists, including Marx, 150 years ago, but probably since the Paris Commune, it has become obvious that the revolutionary process does not involves taking over the capitalist state but, in that process, destroying it.

RED DAVE

mikelepore
22nd May 2010, 16:07
I am interested in where Engels said that in a classless society no crime will exist, as I don't see any other manner in which to make such definitive statements about where his views arose.

Marx and Engels didn't say that, but I don't know how else to interpret such phrases as "an association which will exclude classes and their antagonism ... there will be no more political power ...." [1] "the government of persons is replaced by the administrations of things, and by the conduct of processes of production" [2], "the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear ... public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions ..." [3]

It's clear that Marx and Engels go beyond saying that that public power will no longer serve a ruling class and enforce obedience to class rule. They go beyond that to dismiss "political" procedures, to dismiss the "authority" itself that the state has been known for, to emphasize that society will only need to administer "things" and not govern "persons".

Such claims don't make sense to me unless they are saying that society won't have any further need to outlaw certain activities such as murder, and to enforce those laws, as if the human brain will be so improved that no one would even think of doing such things.

Indeed, if they were only using the word "state" to mean a power that serves a ruling class by enforcing class rule, then there would be no need to mention it at all. In that case, the word "classless" would already communicate "stateless", and any reference to the demise of the state would add no information. It would be pointless to say that the state withers away. It would be like saying that we are going to remove all of the the electrical appliances from the house, but that is not all -- in addition to that, the fact of having some connections to the electrical outlets is going to be ended. Why bother to point out the obvious? Marx and Engels seem to be saying something else besides the unnecessary tautology that, after there are no more classes, there will no longer be compulsion for a ruled class to obey a ruling class. So what else beside that were they saying?

I assert this: In a classless society, compared to class rule, the number of pages in the law books will be far fewer; the numbers of police and handcuffs and jails will be far fewer. They will be fewer in the count of them, and also fewer in the frequency of the occasions for using them. There is no evidence that society will lose the necessity of these things; there is evidence that the there will be a significant quantitative reduction.

The fact that Marx and Engels didn't take any stand on such an issue, one way or the other, tells me that they didn't develop the concept of the withering away of the state sufficiently to mean anything specific by it. Something was expected to wither away but there was no definition of what it is.

--

[1] Marx, 'The Poverty of Philosophy'
[2] Engels, 'Anti-Duhring' and 'Socialism, Utopian and Scientific'
[3] Engels, 'On Authority'

A.R.Amistad
22nd May 2010, 16:10
I think this is a really important distinction for Marxists to make....but you dont seem to say where the quote on Government is from ?
They are both from MIA's encyclopedia

Lacrimi de Chiciură
23rd May 2010, 21:40
Not always could the state be separated from the government. Between the end of antiquity and the middle of the 17th century, no country in western Europe could be claimed to be in possession of a state. In Post-colonial Africa in the 1960's, many of the problems were deepened by the lack of a permanent form of state. Many African nations today would cease to exist in their current form if their governments fell.

Weren't there feudal states which enforced the class rule of the feudal lords, kings, and the Church? How could a class-divided society exist without a state? How do you define the state?

Regarding Africa, because the states there were colonial states, the bourgeoisie who was benefiting from them was mainly located overseas, but clearly the new African ruling class was complicit in maintaining the state inherited from the colonizers: that is why the countries in Africa are still shaped by their colonial origins. (i.e., their borders, like their state structure, were inherited from colonizers.) Contrary to your statement, I think Africa's post-colonial problems were reinforced not by the lack of a state but by continuity of the state: from colonial elites to African, European-educated elites.


The fact that Marx and Engels didn't take any stand on such an issue, one way or the other, tells me that they didn't develop the concept of the withering away of the state sufficiently to mean anything specific by it. Something was expected to wither away but there was no definition of what it is.

I think the terms statelessness and classlessness work together nicely to illustrate the idea of communism, but I wouldn't say they didn't mean anything specific by it. If the state is the institutions that enforce class rule, there could conceivably be aspects of it that continue to exist after class rule has begun to be abolished. For example, public schools which today indoctrinate the youth of the state controlling the schools might continue to exist, the military might gradually become less oriented around fighting wars and more oriented around public works projects and aid, but the point is these institutions gradually become stateless, as a reflection of the growing classlessness.

Dimentio
25th May 2010, 21:59
The feudal states weren't really states, but rather contracts. The area under the rule of a monarch was originally owned by a landlord (the king) who then leased out parts of the land to his soldiers. The peasants paid them food and service in return for protection. To call a feudal state a state would be like callind Pablo Escobar's areas in Colombia for a state.

Moreover, the kings did not do as much governing really. The day to day administration was left to the towns, elected or appointed judges and most importantly clerics.

Die Neue Zeit
25th May 2010, 23:33
Some have proposed separate governments in which one government would be in charge of basic state affairs (national security and the justice system) while others would be in charge of the rest.

RED DAVE
26th May 2010, 01:21
Not always could the state be separated from the government. Between the end of antiquity and the middle of the 17th century, no country in western Europe could be claimed to be in possession of a state. In Post-colonial Africa in the 1960's, many of the problems were deepened by the lack of a permanent form of state. Many African nations today would cease to exist in their current form if their governments fell.Historically, this is not correct. Certainly by the middle of the 16th Century, England could be said to have a state. And with regard to post-colonial Africa, it's obvious, yes, that the state, the government and the army are more intimately related than in the major industrial societies.

Just for a change, Dimentio, since you seem to have, here and elsewhere, some opinions on the state:

(1) How do you think a revolutionary organization should relate to the existing states in the major industrial countries, now;

(2) What role do you see for the state in post-revolutionary society;

(3) What form do you see the post-revolutionary state taking with regard to the economy?

RED DAVE

Dimentio
26th May 2010, 15:53
Historically, this is not correct. Certainly by the middle of the 16th Century, England could be said to have a state. And with regard to post-colonial Africa, it's obvious, yes, that the state, the government and the army are more intimately related than in the major industrial societies.

Just for a change, Dimentio, since you seem to have, here and elsewhere, some opinions on the state:

(1) How do you think a revolutionary organization should relate to the existing states in the major industrial countries, now;

(2) What role do you see for the state in post-revolutionary society;

(3) What form do you see the post-revolutionary state taking with regard to the economy?

RED DAVE

1) That depends on how the organisation is working and what its goals are. What I think is essential though is the acquisition of resources to the organisation, no matter how it is working. It is essential that it owns resources. A small communist party with zero resources could be dogmatically and theoretically "correct" as much as it wants, but it could never reach its goals due to its lack of resources.

2) Depends on what stage. The long-term goal should be the abolishment of any state mechanism. For the transitionary phase, I believe that the state should be stripped of as much powers as possible, essentially becoming even weaker than a nightwatch state. What should be handing the economy is some sort of service or organisation which is independent from the state but under popular control.

3) None at all. The economy should be handled by a separate organisation under popular control. The state should only take care of legislation and defense (though the organisation which is handling the economy should have superior firepower).

gilhyle
12th June 2010, 13:36
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilhyle http://www.revleft.com/vb/state-vs-government-t133621/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/state-vs-government-t133621/showthread.php?p=1753852#post1753852)

One way to look at the distinction is to see the state as a structure and to see the Government as an event/period.
This really makes no sense. The government is part of the state. It may be unstable, but it is part of the state. It is not possible to conceive of, in modern society, a state without a government or a government without a state.


Clearly there (almost) always are Governments within States. But on this argument, Marx could never have written Capital - it is not illegitimate to engage in abstraction: i.e. to consider Government and State separately.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gilhyle http://www.revleft.com/vb/state-vs-government-t133621/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/state-vs-government-t133621/showthread.php?p=1753852#post1753852)

I think it is more useful - at least for Marxists - to see a state as the rule of a certain class and to see the Government as the rule of a certain clique/strata.
First of all, the state is not "the fule of a certain class." The state is an institution within class society. It is not class society itself, which is far larger than the state.

Second of all, you are confusing the personnel of the government with the government itself. The government is a structure within the state. It's personnel, the clique that controls it, is irrelevant to the purpose of the governement.


Your right on this point that for me to have said that the State is' the rule of a certain class' misses out a phrase, namely : 'structure for'.....so I should have said that 'the state is a structure for the rule of a certain class'. But if we see the state as the structure, then we are enabled to avoid the confusion of 'government' with structure. That was the point I was trying to get to : the Government is actually a clique, in modern democracies those cliques are organised as political parties and a sociologist will tell you that such cliques have their own structures for embedding themselves within society, but such structures are not the structures of the State or of 'Government' but rather the structures for the clique to gain the poltical support to gain power.



Quote:
Originally Posted by gilhyle http://www.revleft.com/vb/state-vs-government-t133621/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/state-vs-government-t133621/showthread.php?p=1753852#post1753852)

The latter need not even necessarily be clearly a part of the former. For example in a transition from a capitalist to working class rule there will be a point were a group representative mainly of workers will temporarily hold power within a state which exists on behalf of the bourgeoisie. Such a government will, of course, be very unstable precisely because it 'rules' within a State inimical to it.
This might have been a conception of Marxists, including Marx, 150 years ago, but probably since the Paris Commune, it has become obvious that the revolutionary process does not involves taking over the capitalist state but, in that process, destroying it.


If anything has become obvious, it is how complex the process of undoing the structure of the Capitalist State would have to be and how long term a process a revolutionary party seizing power within the Capitalist State would be entering upon