Venezuela and the new International: after September?

[Die Neue Zeit]

http://www.marxist.com/venezuela-visit-to-inaf-april-2010.htm

Normally Venezuelanalysis is up to speed on this kind of stuff, but the IMT got there first this time:


Since it was announced by Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez last November, the International Marxist Tendency has fully supported the initiative to launch a Fifth International. It is with this in mind that a delegation was sent to Venezuela to participate in the founding conference. Unfortunately, at the last minute, the conference was postponed until after the parliamentary elections in September.

[The Vegan Marxist]

http://www.marxist.com/venezuela-visit-to-inaf-april-2010.htm

Normally Venezuelanalysis is up to speed on this kind of stuff, but the IMT got there first this time:

As long as it's kept as a possible action to be taken, then I don't mind it being in September.

[KurtFF8]

What Leftist organizations around the world are actually considering participating in this new international?

[Robocommie]

What Leftist organizations around the world are actually considering participating in this new international?

Exactly my question. I'm quite interested in this but its success will rely on mass participation.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I don't have any sources, but I remember Bolivia and Ecuador both supporting the motion when it was first announced, along with several European parties.

[Proletarian Ultra]

I don't have any sources, but I remember Bolivia and Ecuador both supporting the motion when it was first announced, along with several European parties.

According to this article (http://www.handsoffvenezuela.org/kiraz_janicke.htm), it's:

YES: MAS (Bolivia) ; PAIS (Ecuador) ; FMLN (El Salvador) ; Proposal for an Alternative Society (Chile) ; New Nation Alternative (Guatemala) ; Socialist Alliance (Australia)

LEANING YES: Die Linke (Germany) ; Parti de Gauche (France) ; Left Bloc (Portugal) ; Cuban Communist Party

NO: Communist Parties of Greece and Brazil ; Worker's Party (Brazil)

[Spawn of Stalin]

If they could get Die Linke on board it would be fantastic, shame about the KKE though, I wonder why they would oppose such a proposal.

[Proletarian Ultra]

Here's the list of the parties present (http://www.revleft.com/vb/international-congress-left-t122797/index.html?t=122797) at the International Congress of Left Parties (Nov,17) in Caracas. International will obv. be different but it gives you an idea.

YES's are in green, MAYBE's in yellow, NO's in red. Parties in black haven't said anything I can find on comrade Google.

LATIN AMERICA AND CARIBBEAN:

ANTIGUA and BARBUDA United Progressive Party (UPP)
ARGENTINA Peronist Party (Kirchner faction, presumably)
BOLIVIA Movimiento al Socialismo (MAS)
BRAZIL Workers Party (PT) Democratic Labor Party (PDT) Brazilian Communist Party (PCB) Communist Party of Brazil (PCdB)
CHILE Humanist Party
COLOMBIA Polo Democrático Alternativo (PDA) Partido Liberal Movimiento Podemos Calí (Movimiento del Alcalde de Calí)
COSTA RICA Frente Amplio (FA) Alianza Patriótica (AP)
CUBA Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC)
DOMINICA Dominica Labour Party - DLP)
ECUADOR Alianza PAÍS
EL SALVADOR Farabundo Martí de Liberación Nacional (FMLN)
GRENADA National Democratic Congress (NDC)
GUATEMALA Unidad Nacional Revolucionaria Guatemalteca (UNRG) Alternativa Nueva Nación (ANN)
GUYANA Progressive People's Party (PPP)
HAITÍ National Popular Party (PPN) Fanmi Lavalas (FL)
HONDURAS Partido Liberal (PL)
MÉXICO Partido Revolucionario Institucional (PRI)
NICARAGUA Frente Sandinista de Liberación Nacional (FSLN)
PANAMÁ Partido Revolucionario Democrático (PRD) Partido de Alternativa Popular (PAP)
PARAGUAY Movimiento al Socialismo (PMAS)
PERÚ Partido Socialista de Perú (PSP)
REPÚBLICA DOMINICANA Partido Nueva Alternativa (PNA) Partido de la Liberación Dominicana (PLD) Movimiento de Izquierda Unida (MIU)
SAINT KITTS AND NEVIS Saint Kitts and Nevis Labour Party (SKNLP)

EUROPE

GERMANY Die Linke
SPAIN Center for Economic and Policy Studies
GREECE Communist Party of Greece (KKE)
FRANCE French Communist Party (PCF) Parti de Gauche
ITALY Communist Refoundation Party (PRC) Party of Italian Communists (PdCI)
PORTUGAL Left Bloc (BE) Portuguese Communist Party (PCP)
UK Labour Friends of Venezuela (LFV)

ÁFRICA

GUINEA BISSAU African Party for the Independence of Guinea Bissau and Cape Verde (PAIGC)
WESTERN SAHARA Polisario Front
ZIMBABWE ZANU-PF

ASIA AND OCEANÍA

AUSTRALIA Socialist Alliance
CHINA Chinese Communist Party
JAPÓN Communist Party of Japan
MALASIA Socialist Party of Malaysia (PSM)
PALESTINA Fatah
VIETNAM Communist Party of Vietnam (PCV)

[Robocommie]

The Chinese Communist Party showed up?

[Die Neue Zeit]

They're not likely to back this project. They just attended the conference for show.

[which doctor]

I heard some Venezuelan diplomat-type figure talk about this proposal a few months ago. He was talking about fighting some international, fascist shadow government. It sounded really nutty. I have trouble imagining anything really productive coming out of this.

[Comrade Awesome]

This is promising, I have high hopes for it. It's off to a good start with the parties already supporting the proposal. :)

[Wanted Man]

If they could get Die Linke on board it would be fantastic, shame about the KKE though, I wonder why they would oppose such a proposal.

I don't know about the KKE, but this is what the Brazilian party had to say about it: http://www.focusonsocialism.ca/random.asp?ID=417

[Q]

Which of the far left organisations, besides the IMT's uncritical fanboyism, has shown interest in this?

[Proletarian Ultra]

I heard some Venezuelan diplomat-type figure talk about this proposal a few months ago. He was talking about fighting some international, fascist shadow government. It sounded really nutty.

Really (http://www.imf.org/external/index.htm), really (http://www.worldbank.org/) nutty (http://www.eff.org/issues/acta).


I have trouble imagining anything really productive coming out of this.

We can't all set the world on fire unlike some conventions (http://convention.platypus1917.org/).

[Die Neue Zeit]

Which of the far left organisations, besides the IMT's uncritical fanboyism, has shown interest in this?

Socialist Alliance in Australia comes to mind (per above).

[chegitz guevara]

The SPUSA was going to send a couple delegates, mainly to make contact with other organizations, but we couldn't get any information out of the Venezuelans about when the conference was being held.

Glad we didn't spend the money to send someone.

[Proletarian Ultra]

Which of the far left organisations, besides the IMT's uncritical fanboyism, has shown interest in this?

New Anticapitalist Party (http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/4956) for one; the document seems to be speaking for the USFI as a whole, although I know the Argentine section isn't happy about it. The Pakistani affiliate is on board (http://www.europe-solidaire.org/spip.php?article16124), though.

[vyborg]

I hope no one of the trotskist crazy organization around the world will choose to join the V Int. Unfortunately they will, many now, many later.

As for the KKE. they have great comrades but they are stuck in 1928. Their policy is a comical ri-edition of the stalinist third periodism mixed with nationalism.

[RadioRaheem84]

The Greek Communists are Stalinists and Nationalists?

Interesting.

[Wanted Man]

Which of the far left organisations, besides the IMT's uncritical fanboyism, has shown interest in this?

Some of the newer "left coalitions", mostly. It's not surprising that many others are opposed because of the significant opportunist elements involved. It is therefore also no wonder that the IMT are uncritically supportive! :D

[RadioRaheem84]

I've been really hoping for an international popular front movement against the growing neoliberalism and right wing nationalism in certain areas, and the left is more split up than Menudo!

[cb9's_unity]

If anything, hopefully this initiative could make a little noise for international socialism. I'm not a full supporter or PSUV, or any of the other party's I see here, I won't rip the international apart immediately.

[Wanted Man]

I've been really hoping for an international popular front movement against the growing neoliberalism and right wing nationalism in certain areas, and the left is more split up than Menudo!

Actually, the cautiousness of many left-wing groups is pretty encouraging; unity, fine, but that should not mean uniting with a whole range of groups (some genuine, some dubious) and giving it a pretty name.

Concretely, many of the initiators of this project are governing parties of capitalist countries. Yes, they are at the forefront of progressive changes and anti-imperialism that should be supported, but that is not the same as aligning with them organisationally.

The main question for the parties that end up forming the "5th International" will be, do they want to overthrow capitalism, or do they want to make it "better"? Until that is decided, it's better to wait and see, even if that means being accused of being "stuck in 1928" by raging opportunists. :D

[RadioRaheem84]

Actually, the cautiousness of many left-wing groups is pretty encouraging; unity, fine, but that should not mean uniting with a whole range of groups (some genuine, some dubious) and giving it a pretty name.

Concretely, many of the initiators of this project are governing parties of capitalist countries. Yes, they are at the forefront of progressive changes and anti-imperialism that should be supported, but that is not the same as aligning with them organisationally.

The main question for the parties that end up forming the "5th International" will be, do they want to overthrow capitalism, or do they want to make it "better"?


I totally agree that if they are truly adamant about a fifth international that they should first and foremost declare their opposition to the system of capitalism, even in their own nations.

I guess the situation is such that the world governing bodies, before the advent of strong leftist movements consolidating power, have moved the political spectrum so dastardly to the right that being a true social democrat these days is akin to being a bloody Bolshevik.

I love the cautiousness of the left and the independent spirit. That is why I came to the left, but since I still consider myself relatively new to the movement (two years and counting) I was hoping for some relief from the burdens of neoliberalism and imperialism. Some real, deal, movement that challenges the right and the social democrat right on all issues, to their face. Not just on-line or in meetings amongst ourselves, but out there calling out the imperialists in the table rounds of international power.

Chavez, Castro, Morales, Correra are not perfect men by a long shot and neither are there movements, but they are the only thing we have going for ourselves in terms of an international face of resistance against neo-liberalism in the world. Why not usurp the power they've received from the workers back and hold their feet to the fire in an international movement?

[vyborg]

The Greek Communists are Stalinists and Nationalists?

Interesting.

Unfortunately they are stalinist and nationaist to the core....
This is very bad as in the working class they have a lot of strong and militant rank and file

[vyborg]

Actually, the cautiousness of many left-wing groups is pretty encouraging;

Encouraging but not enough. There is a serious risk that this crazy guys will come and ruin the V Int. I hope you will convince them to stay where they are. We will be both very happy

[Q]

Encouraging but not enough. There is a serious risk that this crazy guys will come and ruin the V Int. I hope you will convince them to stay where they are. We will be both very happy

So, the IMT has a monopoly position now? No one else is welcome?

So much for unity.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Unfortunately they are stalinist and nationaist to the core....
This is very bad as in the working class they have a lot of strong and militant rank and file

They are a Marxist-Leninist party, thus, "Stalinist". I think it is great that a "Stalinist" party has such good support, obviously they are doing something right, probably has something to do with the fact that they come from a tradition which has a long and proud history of working class victories (Marxism-Leninism). What you see as unfortunate, many of us believe to be a very positive aspect of the party. I don't know much about the party leadership but I personally am quite close with many KKE members and they are some of the most sound-minded communists you could ever meet.

[vyborg]

So, the IMT has a monopoly position now? No one else is welcome?

So much for unity.

Unity with the workers of course and this is already done as the PSUV has milions of members.

It is not a problem of monopoly but of pollution. The less crazy people come the less polluted the environment

[Q]

Unity with the workers of course and this is already done as the PSUV has milions of members.

It is not a problem of monopoly but of pollution. The less crazy people come the less polluted the environment

You should really work on that attitude of yours.

[vyborg]

I was rude but it is because I was these guys in action...I think it is better for them and for us that they build their mass revolutionary international outside the PSUV and the V int...

[Q]

I was rude but it is because I was these guys in action...I think it is better for them and for us that they build their mass revolutionary international outside the PSUV and the V int...

If you genuinely believe that, I think this is a sectarian attitude. Our goal is to unite the class as a class in its own right. Any specific organisation is ultimately subordinated to that goal. Building several mass internationals will only help to splinter the movement so we never stand a chance against the system.

[A.R.Amistad]

The fact that PRI in Mexico is invited is enough to make me vomit in colors no one imagined even existed. :thumbdown:

[Robocommie]

The fact that PRI in Mexico is invited is enough to make me vomit in colors no one imagined even existed. :thumbdown:

Like green, white and red? :D

[Ligeia]

The fact that PRI in Mexico is invited is enough to make me vomit in colors no one imagined even existed. :thumbdown:
Who said they are invited(though it's dubious they were part of the congress of left parties in Caracas)? And even if they were, they wouldn't have any gains by joining in other than disturbing the whole process or doing something evil in Mexico with the information gained.
In this article (http://internacional5.blogspot.com/2010/02/construyamos-la-v-internacional.html) by a member of the Tendencia Marxista Militante it's stated that among people discussing the V international in Mexico were: PRD, Barzón Ciudadano, APPO, organisations of Movimiento Urbano Popular, socialist organisations, students of the IPN, UAM, UNAM(universities), CLEP-CEDEP and Tendencia Marxista Militante.
They also make a call to integrate labour unions like SME and the miners, members who seek for alternatives within PRD and PT,members of APPO and Atenco and movements of national sovereignity.
And there's a reference against neoliberal mexican governments which I guess aim at PAN and PRI.
BTW, the PPS(marxist-leninist socialist party) also wants to participate in the V international.

[RATM-Eubie]

Nice Job Chavez! Keep up the great work!

[RadioRaheem84]

The fact that PRI in Mexico is invited is enough to make me vomit in colors no one imagined even existed. http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/thumbdown.gif Ugh. Say it ain't so.


In this article (http://www.anonym.to/?http://internacional5.blogspot.com/2010/02/construyamos-la-v-internacional.html) by a member of the Tendencia Marxista Militante it's stated that among people discussing the V international in Mexico were: PRD, Barzón Ciudadano, APPO, organisations of Movimiento Urbano Popular, socialist organisations, students of the IPN, UAM, UNAM(universities), CLEP-CEDEP and Tendencia Marxista Militante.

So what is the true story? Were they invited or not?

[vyborg]

If you genuinely believe that, I think this is a sectarian attitude. Our goal is to unite the class as a class in its own right. Any specific organisation is ultimately subordinated to that goal. Building several mass internationals will only help to splinter the movement so we never stand a chance against the system.

If a group believes the V Int is a total scam (and many trot groups believe it), no problem. Simply, stay way from the V Int and go on with this position What's the problem?

[Q]

If a group believes the V Int is a total scam (and many trot groups believe it), no problem. Simply, stay way from the V Int and go on with this position What's the problem?

Of course they're free to do that. The question however is if they decide to join the Vth with the intention of forming a workers movement politically independent from Chavez (yet within the organisational context of the Vth, if it were to become a mass international) because they think he's leftwing-populist for example, would you oppose that and if so, why?

[vyborg]

Of course they're free to do that. The question however is if they decide to join the Vth with the intention of forming a workers movement politically independent from Chavez (yet within the organisational context of the Vth, if it were to become a mass international) because they think he's leftwing-populist for example, would you oppose that and if so, why?

It depends how they do it. If a group pretending to be marxist or trotskist publish a statement as follows: the PSUV is a reactionary party, Chavez is an enemy but as the PSUV has million of workers as members we will go there and try to destroy chavistas, does it help? Well many do and did exactly this

[Ligeia]

So what is the true story? Were they invited or not?
Well PRI attented the Congress of Left Parties in November in Caracas for some reason or another.
Chavez made an open invitation to any group/organization/party/person which/who wants to promote anti-imperialism and socialism (PRI therefore isn't invited). The line-up at the Congress was pretty abissmal(probably because of seeking general support or alliance from various nations for Venezuela), therefore he made this "open invitation to those promoting socialism(and anti-imperialism)" for the V socialist International.

The thing I quoted was about a meeting of groups/organizations and people in Mexico who want to attend the V international....they weren't part of the Congress in Caracas.

[Q]

It depends how they do it. If a group pretending to be marxist or trotskist publish a statement as follows: the PSUV is a reactionary party, Chavez is an enemy but as the PSUV has million of workers as members we will go there and try to destroy chavistas, does it help? Well many do and did exactly this

Whether I agree or disagree with it is besides the point. The question is would you (or the IMT for that matter) oppose it and if so, why?

[vyborg]

What does it mean concretely to oppose? I dont think that Chavez will propose the IMT to take the positon of chief of the organization of the V Int, so "to oppose" what will mean? To write what's a pity some silly guy just entered the V Int?