A sense of peoplehood is not a mental illness

[sleeper1]

Ok, here are some of my views and these are the reasons I'm opposed to Internationalism of the Far Left.


1. Ethnicity is not a product of Capitalism.

2. Yes, Capitalism is the cause of many wars.
But is is not the sole cause of war, there are many other reasons as predicted by evolutionary theory, this can be observed in the Animal Kingdom,

Ethnicity exists and there is proof of this by first hand evidence; visual appearance, physical characteristics, varying cultures practised and secondary sources; such as identifiable genetic grouping, shared histories.

The Sioux Indians exist, the Baka pygmies exist, the Tibetans and the Han Chinese exist.

Now hear lies the probem, I believe the Scottish, English, Irish and Welsh are as much an Ethnic group as the Tibetans. I think it is morally correct and right to preserve these Ethnic groups in their respective homelands.
Because in the context of World Demographics,the Scottish, English, Irish and Welsh are tiny minority of the worlds population.

Please feel free to comment on my views.

(And yes I believe the 'Out of Africa' theory and know all Ethnic groups evolved from a common ancestor in Africa according to the theory.)

[Obrero Rebelde]

No, a sense of peoplehood is not a mental illness. But are you talking about ethnicity or race? Race involves genetics, but does ethnicity? Or isn't race biological, and ethnicity cultural?

[Dermezel]

Actually Internationalism is essential for any social group which desires self-determination since it prevents economic, political and military usurpation via preventive centralized-democratic means.

The goal of Internationalism isn't to turn everyone into something like an "Internationalist unit" or some weird Borg/Zombie/Ant idea. It is simply to create a Democratic Mechanism by which to prevent one group from exploiting another. To do this you need a Superseding Authority.

Sort of like how you needed a Federal government to end State imposed Segregation in the US.

[Dermezel]

No, a sense of peoplehood is not a mental illness. But are you talking about ethnicity or race? Race involves genetics, but does ethnicity? Or isn't race biological, and ethnicity cultural?

Race is largely made up. The closest you can get are DNA polymorphisms which don't correlate with traditional ideas of race.

[Dimentio]

To the OP:

Exactly how do you propose that we should "preserve" the English, the Scottish, the Irish and the Welsh? Preserve them from what? What is the threat against them? France? Germany? America?

As far as I'll know, the only times these peoples were actually threatened by extinction was when Edward Longshanks instituted the prima noctae privileges in Scotland in the 1290's, and when the Irish saw a huge mortality increase during the potato plague of the 1840's.

[red cat]

Ok, here are some of my views and these are the reasons I'm opposed to Internationalism of the Far Left.


1. Ethnicity is not a product of Capitalism.

2. Yes, Capitalism is the cause of many wars.
But is is not the sole cause of war, there are many other reasons as predicted by evolutionary theory, this can be observed in the Animal Kingdom,

Ethnicity exists and there is proof of this by first hand evidence; visual appearance, physical characteristics, varying cultures practised and secondary sources; such as identifiable genetic grouping, shared histories.

The Sioux Indians exist, the Baka pygmies exist, the Tibetans and the Han Chinese exist.

Now hear lies the probem, I believe the Scottish, English, Irish and Welsh are as much an Ethnic group as the Tibetans. I think it is morally correct and right to preserve these Ethnic groups in their respective homelands.
Because in the context of World Demographics,the Scottish, English, Irish and Welsh are tiny minority of the worlds population.

Please feel free to comment on my views.

(And yes I believe the 'Out of Africa' theory and know all Ethnic groups evolved from a common ancestor in Africa according to the theory.)
Excellent proposal; only the names of different "ethnicities" need to be replaced by the names of rare species of animals. :lol:

[Bud Struggle]

, I believe the Scottish, English, Irish and Welsh are as much an Ethnic group as the Tibetans. I think it is morally correct and right to preserve these Ethnic groups in their respective homelands.


There are no "homelands." The ancestors of the Scottish, English and Irish invaded the British Isles when they did--if other peoples invade now--it is just as much their right. The original inhabitants of the British Isles died off when the Gaels and the Angles and the Saxons moved in. Maybe it's time that happens again. That's just how history works. The earth belongs to no one.

Time and people move on.

Rest in Peace.

[sleeper1]

No, a sense of peoplehood is not a mental illness. But are you talking about ethnicity or race? Race involves genetics, but does ethnicity? Or isn't race biological, and ethnicity cultural?


Well not necessarily race, but ancestry. Take the Scottish for example they are anmalgamation of Celts who lived in northern Britain, Picts, Brythons and other European tribes.

There is no Scottish "race" per say but their Ethnicity is decided by their ancestry. I think ancestry is widely accepted to be a deciding factor in determining Ethnicity; coupled with other factors such as language.

[Dermezel]

People should be able to self-determine their ethnic identity. That is why I believe after Socialism, there will be Free Cultures i.e. self-determined communities freed from profit.

This will require Internationalism because otherwise various companies or nations or whatever weird groups (like religions or cults) can rise up in an area or several areas and start exploiting or oppressing smaller groups. Again, just like African-American and Women at times needed the Federal government to protect them from local State or Regional governments.

[sleeper1]

There are no "homelands." The ancestors of the Scottish, English and Irish invaded the British Isles when they did--if other peoples invade now--it is just as much their right. The original inhabitants of the British Isles died off when the Gaels and the Angles and the Saxons moved in. Maybe it's time that happens again. That's just how history works. The earth belongs to no one.

Time and people move on.

Rest in Peace.


Well do you not think it is in peoples Ethnic Interests to prevent that happening? If the biology purpose of life is survival and reproduction.

[RedAnarchist]

Using a proxy, using an owlpic email account, trying to be provocative?

Marsella, is that you?

[sleeper1]

People should be able to self-determine their ethnic identity. That is why I believe after Socialism, there will be Free Cultures i.e. self-determined communities freed from profit.

This will require Internationalism because otherwise various companies or nations or whatever weird groups (like religions or cults) can rise up in an area or several areas and start exploiting or oppressing smaller groups. Again, just like African-American and Women at times needed the Federal government to protect them from local State or Regional governments.

But what if the leaders of the Global Socialist Army/Government acted in favour of certain Ethnic groups over others? Then it would be a lone people versus a Global Army/Government.

[Obrero Rebelde]

Are Queers an "ethnicity"? Are they capable of "peoplehood"?

[Left-Reasoning]

So what if someone happens to have physical characteristics similar to yours?

[Bud Struggle]

Well do you not think it is in peoples Ethnic Interests to prevent that happening? If the biology purpose of life is survival and reproduction.

I would think using the rule of Survival of the Fittest that that is the LAST thing I would want to happen.




Marsella, is that you?

She's cute.:wub:

[sleeper1]

Are Queers an "ethnicity"? Are they capable of "peoplehood"?


Well if they wish to be, then I believe they have that right. Although I don't beleive their society will survive after 100 years...

[Dimentio]

To the OP:

Exactly how do you propose that we should "preserve" the English, the Scottish, the Irish and the Welsh? Preserve them from what? What is the threat against them? France? Germany? America?

As far as I'll know, the only times these peoples were actually threatened by extinction was when Edward Longshanks instituted the prima noctae privileges in Scotland in the 1290's, and when the Irish saw a huge mortality increase during the potato plague of the 1840's.

Could you please answer my questions?

And what exactly is "The Global Socialist Army/Republic"?

[Obrero Rebelde]

Like the good New Jersey ex-governor said, "I am a Gay-American."

That sounded sooooo "ethnic". But only in Amurca!

[Dermezel]

But what if the leaders of the Global Socialist Army/Government acted in favour of certain Ethnic groups over others? Then it would be a lone people versus a Global Army/Government.

You vote on it. Utilize legal mechanisms i.e. Lawfare. Use your Free Speech rights to change people's minds, etc. That is a really weird question, like what if 90% of people wanted slavery back, or what if people started turning into Zombies because the military released a virus.

Like at that point you can only prepare as best you can, and an International Democratic Government would be the best safeguard you can possibly get outside of something in Science Fiction like a benevolent AI.

I mean an Oligarchy, or Autocracy, regional or international, could do the same thing. An Internationalist Socialist-Democracy is just less likely to do it then any of the others, and if it does, it is also the easiest to oppose without recourse to violence.

[sleeper1]

Could you please answer my questions?

And what exactly is "The Global Socialist Army/Republic"?

In my view the threat is Ethnocide iN the name of the Multiculturism ideology.

(a) Any action which has the aim or effect of depriving them of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities;(b) Any action which has the aim or effect of dispossessing them of their lands, territories or resources;(c) Any form of population transfer which has the aim or effect of violating or undermining any of their rights;(d) Any form of assimilation or integration other cultures or ways of life imposed on them by legislative, administrative or other measures;(e) Any form of propaganda directed against them

[sleeper1]

You vote on it. Utilize legal mechanisms i.e. Lawfare. Use your Free Speech rights to change people's minds, etc. That is a really weird question, like what if 90% of people wanted slavery back, or what if people started turning into Zombies because the military released a virus.

Like at that point you can only prepare as best you can, and an International Democratic Government would be the best safeguard you can possibly get outside of something in Science Fiction like a benevolent AI.

I mean an Oligarchy, or Autocracy, regional or international, could do the same thing. An Internationalist Socialist-Democracy is just less likely to do it then any of the others, and if it does, it is also the easiest to oppose without recourse to violence.


Many people do not believe Democracy works on a National level, you will have a hard time convincing them it will work on a Global level.

[Dermezel]

Many people do not believe Democracy works on a National level, you will have a hard time convincing them it will work on a Global level.

Again the "many people" argument. Many people believe in Big Foot and the Lochness Monster.

[#FF0000]

Oh look a racist trying to science and making claims without backing them up!

[Drace]

1. Ethnicity is not a product of Capitalism.
Who argued that it was?


2. Yes, Capitalism is the cause of many wars.
But is is not the sole cause of war, there are many other reasons as predicted by evolutionary theory, this can be observed in the Animal Kingdom,Simple competition between individual animals or even packs is not even comparable to the complexity of human wars.

Evolutionary theory does not state that man go to war because its in their nature.


Ethnicity exists and there is proof of this by first hand evidence; visual appearance, physical characteristics, varying cultures practised and secondary sources; such as identifiable genetic grouping, shared histories.

The Sioux Indians exist, the Baka pygmies exist, the Tibetans and the Han Chinese exist.
Whose denying that ethnicities don't exist? Were only pushing for the elimination of racism, not the concept of race...

It seems like you have a major strawman on the left.

[sleeper1]

Oh look a racist trying to science and making claims without backing them up!

No, I genuinely believe the Scottish, English and Welsh are legitimate Ethnic groups, and you would too if you judge them by the same standard as you would judge non-European descended Ethnic groups.

You call me a racist because my Ethnic group has a lower melatonin count than a Sioux Indian or a Palestinian.

One of us has issues with prejudice - and it ain't me.

[sleeper1]

Who argued that it was?

Simple competition between individual animals or even packs is not even comparable to the complexity of human wars.

Evolutionary theory does not state that man go to war because its in their nature.

Whose denying that ethnicities don't exist? Were only pushing for the elimination of racism, not the concept of race...

It seems like you have a major strawman on the left.

Well, I can agree with that aim. However all Ethnicities must be judged by the same principals and have the same rights in regards to their Historical homelands, they must be no double standards if we wish to start with a clean slate. Adjustments for perceived "past crimes" with lead to tension and inevitably, Ethnic conflict as interests will be polarised.

The Romans and British Lords enslaved many Scottish peasants but I think asking for reparations for these acts is a step toward instability.

[Scary Monster]

In my view the threat is Ethnocide iN the name of the Multiculturism ideology.

(a) Any action which has the aim or effect of depriving them of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities;(b) Any action which has the aim or effect of dispossessing them of their lands, territories or resources;(c) Any form of population transfer which has the aim or effect of violating or undermining any of their rights;(d) Any form of assimilation or integration other cultures or ways of life imposed on them by legislative, administrative or other measures;(e) Any form of propaganda directed against them

Sounds like a closet racist to me. Dude, no one's out to get you and your race. Why do you fear the scottish, english, irish becoming intermixed with other races? This is exactly what the neo nazis use to justify their hatred, the fear of their race becoming "extinct". Join the 21st century, man. The concept of Race and Ethnicity and reinforcing these is infantile and needs to be abolished. There are hardly anymore "pure" people with one single ethnicity anyway, especially in Amurca.

[Dimentio]

No, I genuinely believe the Scottish, English and Welsh are legitimate Ethnic groups, and you would too if you judge them by the same standard as you would judge non-European descended Ethnic groups.

You call me a racist because my Ethnic group has a lower melatonin count than a Sioux Indian or a Palestinian.

One of us has issues with prejudice - and it ain't me.

No one here is thinking that the English have less value than the Native Americans or Palestinians. The reason why we aren't standing up and chanting for English rights is that we don't know anywhere where the English are oppressed or discriminated against.

[Dimentio]

In my view the threat is Ethnocide iN the name of the Multiculturism ideology.

(a) Any action which has the aim or effect of depriving them of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities;(b) Any action which has the aim or effect of dispossessing them of their lands, territories or resources;(c) Any form of population transfer which has the aim or effect of violating or undermining any of their rights;(d) Any form of assimilation or integration other cultures or ways of life imposed on them by legislative, administrative or other measures;(e) Any form of propaganda directed against them

And in what way is immigration causing an ethnocide (what a word, I think the correct term is genocide) on the peoples of the British isles? It isn't exactly like the Pakistanians are invading with an army and occupying the area or repressing the Englishmen in any particular manner.

[Obzervi]

Ok, here are some of my views and these are the reasons I'm opposed to Internationalism of the Far Left.


1. Ethnicity is not a product of Capitalism.

2. Yes, Capitalism is the cause of many wars.
But is is not the sole cause of war, there are many other reasons as predicted by evolutionary theory, this can be observed in the Animal Kingdom,

Ethnicity exists and there is proof of this by first hand evidence; visual appearance, physical characteristics, varying cultures practised and secondary sources; such as identifiable genetic grouping, shared histories.

The Sioux Indians exist, the Baka pygmies exist, the Tibetans and the Han Chinese exist.

Now hear lies the probem, I believe the Scottish, English, Irish and Welsh are as much an Ethnic group as the Tibetans. I think it is morally correct and right to preserve these Ethnic groups in their respective homelands.
Because in the context of World Demographics,the Scottish, English, Irish and Welsh are tiny minority of the worlds population.

Please feel free to comment on my views.

(And yes I believe the 'Out of Africa' theory and know all Ethnic groups evolved from a common ancestor in Africa according to the theory.)

These differences you see such as skin and hair color are superficial and were only useful during primitive tribal times in order to distinguish "us" from "them" (enemy tribes). Focus on these superficial characteristics has no place in modern society and is only used by racists to achieve their goals of genocide against anyone who doesn't match their ideal. The fact is that humans constitute a single species and instead of focusing on the 0.0000001% difference it would be more useful to focus on the overwhelming commonalities.

[synthesis]

In my view the threat is Ethnocide iN the name of the Multiculturism ideology."Multiculturalism," as with any other ideology, is a product of the conditions in which it originated. Specifically, it was introduced to subdue the destabilizing effects of an economic order which requires a large amount of imported labor to function effectively; wages are kept low, regardless of whether the importation and labor are voluntary or coerced.

There's a broader point at hand here. People who are so concerned about "race" (or "ethnicity," which is as related to linguistics as it is genetics) are simply eager to find a convenient scapegoat for the deterioration of the concept's normative capabilities. (In English: the ability of the idea to make people behave a certain way.)

Much like the family, the church, and the nation, the supporters of such "traditional" institutions cannot bring themselves to accept that capitalism has done far more damage to those institutions than progressivism ever could, yet they seek to blame the latter for the consequences of the former, since the latter is a much more vulnerable and therefore satisfying target.



Now hear lies the probem, I believe the Scottish, English, Irish and Welsh are as much an Ethnic group as the Tibetans. I think it is morally correct and right to preserve these Ethnic groups in their respective homelands.
Because in the context of World Demographics,the Scottish, English, Irish and Welsh are tiny minority of the worlds population.Should the Irish be protected against intermixture with the English? They are separate ethnicities, after all.

See, here's your problem. You advocate "protecting ethnic variation," but 1. you've already admitted that ethnic variation is universally a product of ethnic intermixture and 2. you only seem to have a problem when it comes to 'non-white ethnicities' mixing with 'white ethnicities', and not when 'white ethnicities' are intermixing with each other.

In other words, you claim to be disavowing race, but your entire argument is implicitly predicated on precisely that same superannuated superstition. I think most of us could tell from the start that you were simply attempting to frame "racialism" in progressive terms, as has been attempted so many times before, but it was also necessary for us to show you exactly why your argument betrays itself through its own inconsistency.

[Bud Struggle]

I can't believe we are even having this conversation.

[trivas7]

Now hear lies the probem, I believe the Scottish, English, Irish and Welsh are as much an Ethnic group as the Tibetans. I think it is morally correct and right to preserve these Ethnic groups in their respective homelands.
Because in the context of World Demographics,the Scottish, English, Irish and Welsh are tiny minority of the worlds population.

So what's the logic here? Ethnic groups have a right to their respective homelands? Isn't this the traditional response of the left (the "nationalities" issue)?

[Ele'ill]

Ok, here are some of my views and these are the reasons I'm opposed to Internationalism of the Far Left.

2. Yes, Capitalism is the cause of many wars.
But is is not the sole cause of war, there are many other reasons as predicted by evolutionary theory, this can be observed in the Animal Kingdom,

The idea that people have to band together based on race and ethnicity isolates local and global struggle to the point of counter productivity and is used by a ruling class to essentially say as an example 'Gentrification is group X's problem and not yours'. It breeds Apathy.


Ethnicity exists and there is proof of this by first hand evidence; visual appearance, physical characteristics, varying cultures practised and secondary sources; such as identifiable genetic grouping, shared histories.

The Sioux Indians exist, the Baka pygmies exist, the Tibetans and the Han Chinese exist.

I am Italian and Dineh. I have freckles- others do not.


Now hear lies the probem, I believe the Scottish, English, Irish and Welsh are as much an Ethnic group as the Tibetans. I think it is morally correct and right to preserve these Ethnic groups in their respective homelands.
Because in the context of World Demographics,the Scottish, English, Irish and Welsh are tiny minority of the worlds population.

And if the idea of borders were abolished the workers at a distribution center in Ireland wouldn't simply strike or occupy for their own wages or general rights but would do so every time one of their manufacturing plants in Thailand, Vietnam or Mexico called for it.

If you're calling for the general idea of people to have a heritage I don't really think this is even necessary. It's a product of the old world and we should really look past it.

[Foldered]

I can't believe we are even having this conversation.
Neither can I. This thread should have died the minute OP clicked "submit new thread." That, and every post sleeper1 makes just makes me facepalm.

[Comrade Gwydion]

Neither can I. This thread should have died the minute OP clicked "submit new thread." That, and every post sleeper1 makes just makes me facepalm.

I was surprised when someone called this sleeper1 a ´closet/racist´. It would seem a glass closet to me.

[synthesis]

I can't believe we are even having this conversation.

I can. As long as there are people such as "white nationalists," "neo-Pagans" and "otherkin," we must recognize that there are people who cling to idiotic belief systems which serve only to make them feel better about themselves. We must recognize that these people are generally so lost within their own delusions that they are incapable of returning to reality in the near future, but also that their arguments have a great appeal to the "tabulas rasa" of the young Internet userbase, and that these arguments must be actively combated so that reason and rationality may flourish.

[Comrade Gwydion]

I can. As long as there are people such as "white nationalists," "neo-Pagans" and "otherkin," we must recognize that there are people who cling to idiotic belief systems which serve only to make them feel better about themselves. We must recognize that these people are generally so lost within their own delusions that they are incapable of returning to reality in the near future, but also that their arguments have a great appeal to the "tabulas rasa" of the young Internet userbase, and that these arguments must be actively combated so that reason and rationality may flourish.

I must interrupt, but in what sense do you compare neo-pagans with white nationalists?

[Jazzratt]

I must interrupt, but in what sense do you compare neo-pagans with white nationalists?

Well reading his post it seems that he compares them in the sense that they are both groups of "people who cling to idiotic belief systems which serve only to make them feel better about themselves." He's no more saying that neo-pagans and otherkin want to kill all the jews than he is saying that white nationalists want to worship moon-goddesses or declare they have dragon souls or whatever.

[Dimentio]

Otherkin :laugh:

[synthesis]

Otherkin :laugh:

I found out about "otherkin" relatively recently, by perusing Encyclopedia Dramatica, which seems to excel at (perhaps unintentionally) laying out just how disturbing most Internet trends are nowadays.

[Bud Struggle]

Stormfront=assholekin.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Humans and ants are the only creatures on earth to partake in warfare.

[Ele'ill]

Humans and ants are the only creatures on earth to partake in warfare.

And Asian Giant Hornets-