Why was Brian Moore expelled from the SPUSA?

[A.R.Amistad]

Does anyone hve info on why the SPUSA expelled Brian Moore, former SPUSA presidential candidate? I myself am not a big fan of Brian Moore's politics and find his work with the Constitution Party repulsive, but what were the reasons for his expulsion? I'm not an SPUSA member but I heard about this on a small thread here on Revleft.

[Proletarian Ultra]

Does anyone hve info on why the SPUSA expelled Brian Moore, former SPUSA presidential candidate? I myself am not a big fan of Brian Moore's politics and find his work with the Constitution Party repulsive, but what were the reasons for his expulsion? I'm not an SPUSA member but I heard about this on a small thread here on Revleft.

Good riddance. That guy was a walking liability.

[Lolshevik]

I'm wondering this too. IMO he did really well on that Colbert Report interview during the last election cycle; but that was when I didn't know about his past political organizing, stance on womens' reproductive rights etc.

[chegitz guevara]

Let me tell you a story about Scabby the Rat

Scabby the rat was elected Chair of the Esspee of Florida because one of the things Scabby does well is get in the media. Scabby loves to see stories about Scabby, and while Scabby is getting stories about himself done, he talks about the Esspee as well.

Scabby decided that democracy was inefficient. CEOs are allowed to make decisions, and so the Chair of a Party should be allowed to make decisions also. Scabby had a problem though. The Esspee Florida hass a council system, and no officer can make a decision on his/her own. "That's inefficient," Scabby says (actual quote). "It beats the alternative," sez shaygetz (the hero of this story).

Because a majority of the SEC agreed with shaygetz, Scabby needed to figure out a way around majority rule. Scabby's solution? Ignore it. And so Scabby began doing whatever he wanted, as rats do. And, so, Scabby was impeached unanimously, suspended, and a hearing was set to permanently remove him as an officer.

Now, the Esspee Florida, being a legal, ballot-qualified political party, is subject to certain laws of the State of Florida. One of these laws is that a Chair can, with cause, remove sitting members of the SEC. So, Scabby sent a letter to the Division of Elections and the Attorney General alleging various crimes against two SEC members, including shaygetz, and then tried to remove them from the SEC. Unfortunately for Scabby, the day after he was impeached, the SEC had informed the Division of Elections that Scabby could no longer act on their behalf, as he was suspended.

The crime shaygetz was alleged to have committed was coming to the defense of comrades of another organization, the Peaessell when they were attacked by the Tea Party last November. Among other crimes shaygetz is accused of committing is a Florida version of the Smith Act, "Criminal Communism." Scabby sent a copy of the letter to the National Secretary of the Esspee USA. The National Secretary called the SEC in Florida, and three hours later, the SEC of the Esspee Florida expelled the rat.

Now Scabby is running around claiming he is being punished for being a whistle-blower, but the truth is plain for everyone to see. He's just a rat.

http://www.bigskyballoons.com/images/rat_lg.jpg

[A.R.Amistad]

Man what a story :rolleyes: This is one thats going to be told to my children and grandchildren before bedtime! So basically, Scabby violated party democracy and tried to discredit and harm his personal political opponents (including our hero lol) for opportunist reasons? Good riddance, Scabby! :thumbup1:

[Crux]

And why the hell was this guy your presedential candidate? Seriously.

[gorillafuck]

*story*
Wow, what a shithead.

Edit: What does this mean for the SPUSA Florida branch? Is there any sort of idea who the new chair is going to be?

[Spawn of Stalin]

Never liked the guy since he tried to appease Bill O'Reilly on live television by distancing himself from the communist movement, even going so far as to say communism was "extremely authoritarian", LOL.

[Crux]

And all the while given the "radical phrase" a true face, a very empty phrase at that.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Haha chegitz is my hero

[Crux]

Haha chegitz is my hero
Ditto.

And on a related note to my previous question, how could he become chair of the party?

[chegitz guevara]

And why the hell was this guy your presedential candidate? Seriously.

Seriously, because we were fucking opportunists.

Because we saw that Moore had the ability to get substantial media coverage for the Party. It really wasn't until the past few months that he suddenly became problematic. He made a lot of bone-headed mistakes in the campaign, but he would correct himself when we said something.

As to his past politics, personally, I don't think a person's past political associations should be held against him/her. We want to win people over, get them to change.

Allegations of his stance on the right to choose have only come from one source so far, and an untrustworthy one at that. If it's true, then he lied to the Party during the convention, because we asked him his stance and he told us he supported the right to choose.

The events that led to his expulsion are both more petty and more serious than I've described, but it's a lot of detail that I think would distract from the real issue: majority rule and solidarity.

[Crux]

Seriously, because we were fucking opportunists.

Because we saw that Moore had the ability to get substantial media coverage for the Party. It really wasn't until the past few months that he suddenly became problematic. He made a lot of bone-headed mistakes in the campaign, but he would correct himself when we said something.

As to his past politics, personally, I don't think a person's past political associations should be held against him/her. We want to win people over, get them to change.

Allegations of his stance on the right to choose have only come from one source so far, and an untrustworthy one at that. If it's true, then he lied to the Party during the convention, because we asked him his stance and he told us he supported the right to choose.

The events that led to his expulsion are both more petty and more serious than I've described, but it's a lot of detail that I think would distract from the real issue: majority rule and solidarity.
His political shortcomings and past aside, his attack against party democracy and the party itself is enough. But I have to admit I found it very hard to listen to him when I watched the "third party candidate debate" or really any venue he spoke, because he would be mixing some pretty vague positions and trying to fill out the blanks with truisims in the vein of "socialism is good". Maybe acceptable from a fresh recruit, but certainly not from someone supposed to be representing the party in any kind of elections. Well, I'm not an SP USA member of course, but I suspect you won't disagree.

[chegitz guevara]

Ditto.

And on a related note to my previous question, how could he become chair of the party?

The state organization is very small, so we have to take what we can get. Brian did the main thing a Chair does, be a spokesperson, quite well (from the stand point of an organization with mushy politics), and the Chair really has no higher authority than any other committee member, except the ability to bounce committee members, knowledge of which I kept to myself.

Unfortunately, for some unknown reason, Moore fell under the spell of a former member who has never forgiven the Party for not recognizing his greatness. Said former member did know about that power of the Chair, and is also the one who put Moore up to trying to get the AG to charge me with criminal communism, etc.

[Robocommie]

Seriously, because we were fucking opportunists.

Because we saw that Moore had the ability to get substantial media coverage for the Party. It really wasn't until the past few months that he suddenly became problematic. He made a lot of bone-headed mistakes in the campaign, but he would correct himself when we said something.

As to his past politics, personally, I don't think a person's past political associations should be held against him/her. We want to win people over, get them to change.

Allegations of his stance on the right to choose have only come from one source so far, and an untrustworthy one at that. If it's true, then he lied to the Party during the convention, because we asked him his stance and he told us he supported the right to choose.

The events that led to his expulsion are both more petty and more serious than I've described, but it's a lot of detail that I think would distract from the real issue: majority rule and solidarity.

What about Stewart Alexander? Is he good people?

[chegitz guevara]

Alexander is good people, as far as I can tell. I really don't know him, but I haven't heard anything bad about him and I've liked the stuff he's written.

[Zanthorus]

"Criminal Communism."

Holy Hell! That's a crime? That's insane.

[Revy]

Well I regret having used my first vote ever on him.

The SP made a mistake in nominating him. But the nomination wasn't a landslide. As I have pointed out, it was 25 to 20 votes at the Convention, Brian Moore won by only 5 votes against Eric Chester.

I thought Gloria La Riva was a very good candidate of the PSL. There is someone who is very acquainted with the movement she is a part of (Eric Chester was too...he almost won). Brian Moore's political experience was a left-leaning anti-war independent who ran as a Green for Senate in 2006. He did not have experience as a socialist. It was like he became a socialist a few months before strolling into the SP-USA Convention. I wasn't comfortable with that.

[chegitz guevara]

Yep. It is against the law in the United States to advocate the revolutionary overthrow of the U.S. government by force since 1940. And for good measure, it's illegal in Florida as well. Look up the Smith Act.

In 1957, the Supreme Court ruled in Yates v. U.S., however, there must be an imminent act, that mere advocacy of theory cannot be illegal, because of the First Amendment protection of freedom of speech. In other words, unless it's likely revolution will be carried out, it's not illegal to talk about it or organize for it. Of course, even if it weren't illegal, if revolution were likely, they'd still harass, jail, torture, and kill us.

The Florida law lumps anarchism, communism, and fascism together and outlaws all three.

BTW, in his letter to the Florida AG, Scabby the rat pointed to some of my postings here at RevLeft.com as proof of my criminal communism.

[Crux]

Yep. It is against the law in the United States to advocate the revolutionary overthrow of the U.S. government by force since 1940. And for good measure, it's illegal in Florida as well. Look up the Smith Act.

In 1957, the Supreme Court ruled in Yates v. U.S., however, there must be an imminent act, that mere advocacy of theory cannot be illegal, because of the First Amendment protection of freedom of speech. In other words, unless it's likely revolution will be carried out, it's not illegal to talk about it or organize for it. Of course, even if it weren't illegal, if revolution were likely, they'd still harass, jail, torture, and kill us.

The Florida law lumps anarchism, communism, and fascism together and outlaws all three.

BTW, in his letter to the Florida AG, Scabby the rat pointed to some of my postings here at RevLeft.com as proof of my criminal communism.
Again, what a fucking scab. Doesn't the constitution guarantee the right to revolt against a tyrannical government? That would be an interesting appeal to make against the law.

[chegitz guevara]

Again, what a fucking scab. Doesn't the constitution guarantee the right to revolt against a tyrannical government? That would be an interesting appeal to make against the law.

No, that's the Declaration of Independence, but it does not have the force of law (except in that we are independent of Great Britain). It's only a moral right, not a legal one. It's a right, however, that most Americans agree we have whatever the government says.

[Robocommie]

Man, I had no idea Moore was such a tool.

[chegitz guevara]

You know what, I'm the tool. I knew Brian might be problematic, and I did nothing about it. I thought with a solid majority to keep him in check, we'd be fine. What I didn't account for was that he's a blithering idiot on top of being an opportunist.

You know the old story about the fox looking to cross the river, and a serpent comes along and says, "Give me a ride on your back." The fox says, "No, you're a serpent. You'll bite me."

The serpents says, "But if I do that, we'll both drown."

The fox thinks about it, then agrees, allows the serpent on his back, then begins swimming across the river, when he feels a sharp pain in his neck.

"Why?" asks the fox. "Now we both will die."

The serpent hisses, "You knew what I was when you let me ride your back."

[chegitz guevara]

Edit: What does this mean for the SPUSA Florida branch? Is there any sort of idea who the new chair is going to be?

We elected comrade Jim Sanders to replace Brian. Jim is a long time antiwar activist, was in Solidarity but joined the SP (we have a lot of dual members). Jim's a commie, just like everyone else on our SEC. Jim is also co Vice-Chair of the Socialist Party USA and the convener of the Queer Commission. I need to listen to Jim more, because he is a very good judge of character. If I had listened to him, this thread probably wouldn't exist.

Note our stylin' new logo by our Vice-Chair. She's a graphic designer for hire.
http://socialistparty-usa.org/states/florida.html

Also note the nickname of the SE Florida local. ;) Our Vice Chair did a slammin' graphic for us, Kollontai, Bukharin, and Trotsky playing volleyball against Debs, Mother Jones, and Helen Keller. All of these folks were members of the Socialist Party of America, our predecessor organization.

[Robocommie]

If everyone on the SEC are Commies, does this indicate a possible left shift for the SP-USA? Or do you mean the SEC of the Florida branch are all Commies?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Contrary to expectations, Scabby turned out to be no Uncle at all (and I'm not talking about "Uncle Joe").

[chegitz guevara]

SEC is the State Executive Committee.

The SPUSA has been shifting left for several years. It was only because we held the convention in Newark, which allowed the social-democratic New York City local to come in mass, and the economic crisis, which prevented some revolutionary comrades from attending, that we ended up with a social democrat, Billy Wharton, as male co-chair. All of the rest (five) of the national officers are either commies or anarchists. Of the national committee (12 + 12 alternates), about five are social democrats, at least six are revolutionaries, and the rest are either revolutionaries or centrists. The fear of some revolutionary comrades is that Billy's high profile in the media will attract more social democrats to the Party, allowing them to swamp us next time.

[chegitz guevara]

The graphic for the Southeast Florida local.

[A.R.Amistad]

The graphic for the Southeast Florida local. Holy shit! Make me a T-shirt of this and mail it to me!!!:laugh: Im a size small in mens!

[chegitz guevara]

You can buy one when we set up the Zazzle account. :)

[The Hong Se Sun]

I didn't realize he tried to use you helping defend one of your pee-es-sell comrades against you (thank you by the way). And criminal communism? That is a lol. "I think I smell a rat!"

[KurtFF8]

It's too bad he made it as far as he did in the first place in the SPUSA. Hopefully the 2012 elections will provide a better opportunity and better candidates who will have better messages.

I can imagine news stations will love the "Hasn't Obama been building socialism?? Why are these socialists running candidates then?" kind of stories. And I would certainly hope someone who is actually good at that kind of thing can do it this time around.

[chegitz guevara]

Damn, the Moore crap isn't done yet. Right after we filed the documentation with the Division of Elections removing him, he sent in a letter putting himself back, and the state followed it. :blink:

I am very put out, to put it mildly.

[Crux]

Damn, the Moore crap isn't done yet. Right after we filed the documentation with the Division of Elections removing him, he sent in a letter putting himself back, and the state followed it. :blink:

I am very put out, to put it mildly.
But...what..How could he even do that? And really, what does he expect to win from this?

[Revy]

I think Brian Moore is done for when it comes to running as a socialist. Unless he starts his own reformist party, now that would be a hoot. Suffice to say....if he ever runs again for anything here in Florida (Governor, Senate) he won't be getting my vote.....

[The Vegan Marxist]

Damn, the Moore crap isn't done yet. Right after we filed the documentation with the Division of Elections removing him, he sent in a letter putting himself back, and the state followed it. :blink:

I am very put out, to put it mildly.

Seriously, how the hell did he do that?

[Yehuda Stern]

Yeah, I mean, I'd never imagine giving an opportunist a high ranking position in your party could go wrong like this, and even less that he's receive backing from the state in clashes with you.

[heiss93]

It is strange that that Brian Moore even ended up in the SPUSA, considering that it is the most radical left of the descendants of the old SP including Luxemburg and Trotsky factions. It would seem that Moore's politics would have been more at home in the DSA or especially the Social Dems USA.

[Revy]

It is strange that that Brian Moore even ended up in the SPUSA, considering that it is the most radical left of the descendants of the old SP including Luxemburg and Trotsky factions. It would seem that Moore's politics would have been more at home in the DSA or especially the Social Dems USA.

He opposed the Democrats. most people in DSA support the Democratic Party at least critically.

[Raúl Duke]

I wish there was an SPUSA on this side of Florida...to me it seems the SPUSA on the south-east coast seem pretty active.

I wouldn't mind working with you guys on things we could agree with.

[heiss93]

Well I do understand what Zizek calls the "populist temptation" of the left. And if the Left is ever to create a mass movement it DOES need to strike with the old Populist Americanism. It would be a good thing if the left could tap into the same energy that strikes the teabagger movement. But that also means picking up a lot of baggage that orthodox Marxists would be uncomfortable with. Moore unfortunately attached himself to the ugliest aspects of populism. His support of Pat Buchanan was rather repulsive. While politicians can genuinely reform and change their positions, Moore's "apology" long after he had already taken SP leadership was that he thought Pat had good ideas for the common man. While the European ultraright has long used faux anti-capitalist rhetoric, the American ultraright actually revels in laissez-faire capitalism. Thus I understand, although strongly disagree with, the reasons why a Right-Populist who attacked certain aspects of capitalism could appeal to Moore.

[Revy]

DSA is also not an electoral party like the SP-USA is. It's not even a party by a broad definition. More like an organization.

[Crux]

I think Brian Moore is done for when it comes to running as a socialist. Unless he starts his own reformist party, now that would be a hoot. Suffice to say....if he ever runs again for anything here in Florida (Governor, Senate) he won't be getting my vote.....
Yeah, again what the hell does he expects to win here?

[chegitz guevara]

Yeah, I mean, I'd never imagine giving an opportunist a high ranking position in your party could go wrong like this, and even less that he's receive backing from the state in clashes with you.

Well, from talking to the state bureaucrats today, my understanding is that because there is a dispute, they are reverting for the time being and looking more deeply into the issue.

As for the other thing, we deserve that.


I wish there was an SPUSA on this side of Florida...to me it seems the SPUSA on the south-east coast seem pretty active.

I wouldn't mind working with you guys on things we could agree with.

Where you at, comrade?


Well I do understand what Zizek calls the "populist temptation" of the left.

That's opportunism, and when you play with opportunists, you will get burned. They aren't even useful tools like fire. What's worse is, I knew better. I've been a commie for twenty fucking years, studied Lenin and Trotsky, and I knew what Brian was, and that he was going to burn us sooner or later. I just didn't think he was going to do it over something so stupid as supporting someone who'd been expelled three years ago against his own organization. :blink: I just don't see the advantage in what he did.


Yeah, again what the hell does he expects to win here?

Revenge, basically.

[Crux]

Hey, I feel for you. We've been through a pretty nasty, if small split here lately where the ex-comrades have stole our subscribers and members list, as well as a large sum of money, and resources, like computers etc. They also insist on using our name which makes thing's well disturbing. Given that they absolutely down right refuse to talk to us and have pulled some almost unbelievable shit (they most likely tried to unsubscribe ALL our subscribers, for example), we received some criticism from some others on the left for this, but we've called the police on them, if nothing else to retrieve our names and funds. Given that they can't be reasoned with our only other option would to go up there and take the stuff back by force, something which would have undoubtedly landed *us* in legal trouble. Hell they've already tried to sue us for using their(which means our) name for the local website. It's insane. It's so fucking petty. So yeah I feel for you, man. At least it's only one of them in your case.

[Raúl Duke]

I'm in the South-West side north of Naples...in other words I'm in Ft.Myers.
I wish the SPUSA of South-East Florida expanded into a SPUSA of South Florida...
I'll be pretty nice to see some socialists here instead of just hippy/liberal environmentalists and what not.

[Proletarian Ultra]

He opposed the Democrats. most people in DSA support the Democratic Party at least critically.

Wasn't he pissed off because his guy lost a primary to Jimmy Carter? I mean, a lot of people left the Democrats when Teddy lost in '80...but Terry Fucking Sanford? Weird guy.

[A.R.Amistad]

any comrades from the panhandle in Florida?

[chegitz guevara]

any comrades from the panhandle in Florida

A handful of our members are in the Panhandle.

Most of the panhandle comrades (of all stripes) are in Tallahassee, as that's where there are two universities, Florida State and Florida A&M, which is an historically Black school.

At least one RevLeft comrade is in Tallahassee.

[KurtFF8]

(Meee!)

[Robocommie]

You guys ever see alligators?

[Revy]

You guys ever see alligators?

more like birds, squirrels, and cats.:lol: our cities aren't that different.

[chegitz guevara]

You guys ever see alligators?

Heh, no, not since we drove across Tamiami Trail in '81. I've eaten some, though. Tastes like chicken, with the texture of shrimp. :lol:

[Crux]

Mmmm, shrimp...speaking of spineless animals how's scabby doing?

[chegitz guevara]

He showed up at the Coalition of Immokalee Workers march last weekend and called himself a revolutionary :laugh:, then got pissy when the migrant workers asked him to hold one of their signs instead of his own.

[Spawn of Stalin]

He's not exactly doing himself any favours, is it at all clear what he hopes to achieve from being a pedantic little child? One can only imagine..

[Robocommie]

http://www.votebrianmoore.com/images/Immokalee_%20Day%202.jpg


April 16, 2010: Brian Moore, 2008 presidential candidate of the Socialist Party USA (far right), sported a sign reading: “Reform System, No! Radically Transform System, Yes! Educate About Socialism, Not Sloganeering or Provacative [sic] Rhetoric!” Despite this, he marched alongside us while we chanted provocative slogans like Up, up with the fair food nation! Down, down with the exploitation! and El pueblo unido jamás será vencido [“The people, united, will never be defeated”]. Moore told me he considered himself a revolutionary, and criticized the Coalition of Immokalee Workers (CIW) for demanding change within the existing agro-industrial complex, rather than seeking to transform the system itself. Before long, however, a couple of students affiliated with the International Socialist Organization (ISO) introduced themselves to Moore and me. They insisted, somewhat comically, that they, not Moore, were the true revolutionaries, because whereas Moore sought to work within the existing political system (i.e. by running for President of the United States in 2008 – he earned 6,555 votes nationwide), these students (left and center – no pun intended) and the ISO do not trust established governments to bring about meaningful change. Soon after these students appeared, they engaged Moore in animated conversation and before long I lost them all in the vast, vibrant parade.

http://www.votebrianmoore.com/ :lol:

[Die Neue Zeit]

This clown reminds me more and more of Die Linke's Dietmar Bartsch, whose entire political behaviour aside from briefly praising the inter-war USPD is an embarrassment.

[chegitz guevara]

What a putz. Though, if that guy is reporting correctly, those ISO comrades don't know their own organization's politics.

[JacobVardy]

You can buy one when we set up the Zazzle account. :)

When would that be? I've got a Trotskyite mate that would be perfect for. Although posting it across the Pacific would probably be expensive.

[Crux]

Hahaha I think I actually visited his page long before he became member of SP USA. I went "hmmmm...".

[Proletarian Ultra]

Before long, however, a couple of students affiliated with the International Socialist Organization (ISO) introduced themselves to Moore and me. They insisted, somewhat comically, that they, not Moore, were the true revolutionaries, because whereas Moore sought to work within the existing political system (i.e. by running for President of the United States in 2008 – he earned 6,555 votes nationwide), these students (left and center – no pun intended) and the ISO do not trust established governments to bring about meaningful change.

OMFG LULZ!!! ISO supported Nader!!!

[chegitz guevara]

When would that be? I've got a Trotskyite mate that would be perfect for. Although posting it across the Pacific would probably be expensive.

Keep bugging me, or I'll forget. I'm a busy Bolshevik. :)

I have to present an idea to the committee, but I'd like to actually have Radical Jack's do the shirts, and we'll sell them. A friend and comrade in Workers World works at Radical Jacks, and I'd like to keep him employed.

[Robocommie]

Keep bugging me, or I'll forget. I'm a busy Bolshevik. :)

Haha, Busy Busy Bolsheviks. That should be a board game.

[KurtFF8]

OMFG LULZ!!! ISO supported Nader!!!

Indeed. But I'm assuming that they are the ISO folks from Gainesville who seem to be actual revolutionaries (I met a few of them at the Florida Leftist conference this weekend)

I was also at the CIW march, and it rocked btw. Although I missed the bigger day which was Sunday

[Yehuda Stern]

chegitz, I admire your honesty about this. Now I want to ask, seriously, what do you think your party has learned from this? What do you think has been done to prevent it from happening again? Let me know if you already answered this somewhere else and I've missed it.

[chegitz guevara]

That's a good question, Yehuda.

On an individual level, I've learned to trust my instincts more, that when they say, this person is trouble, listen. I'm also going to listen more to other comrade when they tell me a comrade is trouble. I think I've become a lot less willing to give people the benefit of the doubt.

But that's not what you asked.

On a surface level, the Party has learned it needs to have specific procedures in place in order to deal with this sort of thing. Sure, Roberts Rules has a procedure, and we operate according to those rules, but it's still messy and painful.

But I doubt that's what you're after.

I suspect the real question is, has the Party learned its lesson from getting burned by being opportunist? I'd really have to say no. Not only is it going to happen again, it is happening again. The male Chair of the Party, Billy Wharton, continues to act as if he is above democracy and majority rule. He uses the paper and blog largely as a means by which to promote himself. It's the opinion of many on the left that the SPUSA is simply a weigh station for him on his way to someplace further right. He'd like be in DSA or the Greens, with his politics, but he couldn't be a big fish there. Still, he has the good will of many people in the Party. It was a real defeat when he got elected.

Still, it's a place where we can do revolutionary socialist work. It will become a serious revolutionary organization, but that's a longer term struggle.

[Yehuda Stern]

Then I'll just repeat, shortly, what I've said before: there's a reason why people like that end up in the leadership of the party, and why they manage to gain so much power. And it's sad to see good, revolutionary minded people like you ending up as left defenders of such rotten reformist rumps.

[Raúl Duke]

Still, he has the good will of many people in the Party. It was a real defeat when he got elected.


Who else were running for national chair?
Who are the radical candidates?

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Brian Moore always bugged me. I tried to read up on his positions and hoped I would come around to like him. I never did. His approach sounded so fake, quite opportunistic, not even socialist (social democratic at best?). This in turn lead to me standing in the polling booth for the 2008 elections just staring down at my sheet, wondering if I should write-in Cobra Commander. Point is: I hope this shift to the left you speak of leads to a good, authentic lefty next time.

[chegitz guevara]

Brian Moore, 2008 Socialist Party Nominee, Files to Run in Democratic Primary for Governor of Florida (http://www.ballot-access.org/2010/06/18/brian-moore-2008-socialist-party-nominee-files-to-run-in-democratic-primary-for-governor-of-florida/)

June 18th, 2010 On June 18, Brian Moore, a long-time resident of Florida, filed to run for Governor in the Democratic Party primary. He will be the only opponent of Alex Sink. See this (http://www.jaxobserver.com/2010/06/18/former-socialist-presidential-candidate-running-for-governor-as-a-democrat/) story, which focuses on the fact that Moore was the Socialist Party presidential candidate in 2008.
Moore’s ties with the Socialist Party have recently ended. Moore was also active in the Reform Party during 2004, the year the Reform Party nominated Ralph Nader for President.
June 18 was the deadline for candidates to file for election in Florida, for state office. The Florida deadline for congressional candidates was last month.

:blink::laugh::thumbup1:
That's what total vindication feels like.

[Die Neue Zeit]

You beat me to it, damn it! I read this on Independent Political report! :blushing:

Sufficed to say, Brian Moore was not a man who was avuncular enough to openly advocate an "overthrow" of capitalism and organize for the gain of the SP-USA at the expense of bigger parties, all the while being a smooth talker.

[Crux]

I never found him that smooth talking to be honest.

[Die Neue Zeit]

That's what I said above. Part of being avuncular is being a smooth talker, which this guy isn't.

[Rocky Rococo]

I've been outside real left circles for some time, sort of floating alone out there as a revolutionary-minded leftist. But I have been involved with a few local soft-left types doing antiwar work and the like. While Moore doesn't have anything to say to those of us with a serious left perspective, after he did that appearance on (Colbert? Stewart?) the social-dem/green types I was working with were quite enthusiastic about him. I guess it boils down to that speaking resonates with people who share his overall reformist-left perspective.

[Atlee]

Does anyone hve info on why the SPUSA expelled Brian Moore, former SPUSA presidential candidate? I myself am not a big fan of Brian Moore's politics and find his work with the Constitution Party repulsive, but what were the reasons for his expulsion? I'm not an SPUSA member but I heard about this on a small thread here on Revleft.


Removal of B M
Jim * jim * at *.com
Tue Feb 9 21:22:46 MST 2010

Whereas,
A Y, former Secretary of the Socialist Party of
Florida, was expelled by state convention in 2007, for attempting to
lead a "coup" against the Socialist
Party of the United States of America, the
parent
organization of the SPFL, for publishing a comrade's private address
on the internet, for declaring himself Chair of the SPFL, and other
actions,

Whereas,
Mr. Y has engaged in a campaign of
cyber-bullying members of the SPFL State Executive Committee since
2007,

Whereas,
Mr Y has engaged in a campaign of
cyber-bullying at least two members of the SPFL who have mental
illnesses,

Whereas,
Mr. Y has admitted to refusing to
return property and correspondence belonging to the
SPFL,

Whereas,
Mr. Y began illegally using the name of
the SPFL, its locals, and its logos on his websites in
2009,

Whereas,
In 2007 and 2008, the SEC instructed the
Secretary of the SPFL to obtain a lawyer to seek redress against Mr.
Y,

Whereas,
In 2009, the SEC instructed the Secretary
of the SPFL to discuss with a lawyer the situation regarding the
illegal use of the Party's name and logo,

Whereas,
B M, Chair of the Socialist Party of Florida has covertly worked
with A Y, including on the websites which illegally use the
Party's names and logo,

Whereas,
The actions of B M
may have jeopardized the standing of the SPFL in any legal actions
taken against Mr. Y.

Be it resolved that,
B M
is hereby removed as Chair of the Socialist
Party of Florida immediately,

And be it resolved
that,
until such time as any legal action against A Y be
resolved
or dismissed, B M is ineligible to hold any
office held under
the authority of the Socialist Party of Florida,
unless a state
convention reverses this decision.

And be it
resolved that,
The SEC of the SPFL shall cause to be published
within the Party the
reasons for the removal of Chairman M.

[Atlee]

Larry B
Tue Feb 9 21:35:41 MST 2010

Comrade S,



I am ignorant of the situation in Florida. Could you please
elaborate what you mean by "working with A Y"?



B

Socialist Party of Kansas

[Atlee]

sara m
Tue Feb 9 21:37:48 MST 2010

I could definitely use some more info on the situation as well, from whomever feels able to
provide some background.

Thanks!
Sara

[Atlee]

chegitz
Tue Feb 9 22:40:40 MST 2010

It's a long story. I'll try and make it as brief as possible. Back in
2007, A Y was the secretary of the SPFL and chair of the
Socialist Party of Jacksonville. For various reasons, A.Y. took it
upon himself to declare himself Chair (all the other state officers
had resigned), then pronounced that the SPFL was no longer part of the
SPUSA and the the SPJax had also voted to leave the party. There was a
lot more drama involved as well. At the following state convention, he
was expelled unanimously.

Since then, he has been carrying out a vendetta against the SPFL. He
posts the home address and pictures of SPFL officers on his websites.
He broke into the archives of the SEC and published some of the
information he found there, he has refused to turn over party
property, for years now, he has cyber-stalked and bullied D.E.
and S.S. Recently, he purchased the domains for the
Socialist Party of Florida website (which we had allowed to expire,
because the officers in charge dropped out of activity). He is
representing himself as the SPFL "Resistance Tendency" and using our
logos.

For years, the SEC has expressed an interest in obtaining a lawyer,
both to sue Florida for violations of our 1st Amendment rights, but
also to seek an injunction against A.Y. The use of a Party name and
logo is illegal in Florida, without the written consent of the SEC,
which we never granted. This was the last straw.

Although the previous SEC meeting in December instructed me to meet
with an attorney who had agreed to work pro-bono, the charge is that
Brian Moore worked covertly with A.Y., because he claims it was in
the state Party's best interests. We have admissions from him tonight
that he was doing so, as well some electronic data, and his admission
to another party member that A.Y. had given him a website (for the
Tampa Bay local) to use. This undermined a resolution of the SEC, and
in doing so, could potentially complicate what should be a slam dunk
case in obtaining an injunction to shut down these phony websites (as
well as get our Party property returned, and force A.Y. to leave our
party members alone).

We are trying to do this very carefully, with respect to Brian's
rights and by parliamentary procedure. He will be presented with the
charges against him. According to parliamentary procedure, his
membership is suspended until trial. He will have time to prepare a
defense and has a right to counsel. It will require a 2/3rds vote of
the SEC to remove him as chair of the SPFL.

This is not something we did easily nor lightly. We've been discussing
the problem for weeks with various comrades on how to handle the
situation, whether we should remove him, expel him, do a mass
resignation from the SEC, wait and see. The vote was unanimous (Brian
didn't vote). Even the representative of his own local voted to
impeach.

Marc L
Secretary / Socialist Party of Florida

[Atlee]

sara m
Tue Feb 9 22:45:29 MST 2010

Thanks, M.L. Wow, this is a twisted story. Sounds like suspension until trial was a good way
to go. Best to FL comrades in dealing with this situation.
Sara

[Robocommie]

Okay Attlee, so you posted a shitload of Chegitz's assumedly private correspondence with his comrades in the SPUSA and SPFL. What exactly is this supposed to prove other than the fact that you've managed to alienate apparently everyone in the SPUSA?

[Robocommie]

This shit should be pretty entertaining when Chegitz sees it. I'll go make the popcorn.

[chegitz guevara]

I think now that comrades here can understand why it was necessary to both be rid of Atlee, and then Moore, for undermining our efforts to stop Atlee from doing what he does.

What amazes me is that Atlee will present so much evidence of his being a problem, and then act as if it exonerates him, and that we were the ones who wronged him.

Do I need to bother to dispute his points, or will comrades understand Atlee interprets reality in own unique way?

Sorry to disappoint, Robo. Arguing with Atlee is an exercise in futility, and I have better things to do with my time and sanity.

[Kassad]

Chegitz, I'm really sorry to see your personal messages posted like this. If you would like them deleted, I will delete them.

[chegitz guevara]

Please do, thanks. They are internal emails of the National Committee of the SPUSA.

[Revy]

Atlee should be banned. Not only for being a spammer, a troll, and a psycho. But because he is a reactionary right-wing fake leftist.

http://christiansocialistpartyusa.org/
(http://christiansocialistpartyusa.org/)
^click About and that's pretty much the only evidence you really need. He founded a party of crazy homophobic Third Positionists.

[Atlee]

I think now that comrades here can understand why it was necessary to both be rid of Atlee, and then Moore, for undermining our efforts to stop Atlee from doing what he does.

What amazes me is that Atlee will present so much evidence of his being a problem, and then act as if it exonerates him, and that we were the ones who wronged him.

Do I need to bother to dispute his points, or will comrades understand Atlee interprets reality in own unique way?

Sorry to disappoint, Robo. Arguing with Atlee is an exercise in futility, and I have better things to do with my time and sanity.

Yawn, nice deflect Mr. "No Evidence"? Let me translate this so comrades here that wish to follow an actual multi-sided story can fully understand what transpired. The whole substance of M.L.'s basis is from his own act of cowardice for which I called him out in 2007 shortly after I trusted him and appointed him to his current seat of authority after two officers resigned within two weeks of each other.

What opinions that were written by the above officers were all derived from the one act of hatred and misdirection of M.L. As my evidence I invite anyone who wants to know the truth and discover evidence to demand it from all officers of the SP-USA and M.L. What you, dear comrades, will find is the original sole source of information without truth lays with M.L. who has fabricated this whole lie to retain his appointed seat and did so with only a handful of key people who have never known A.Y. or interviewed A.Y. or B.H. throughout either hate filled process.

If I was the actual enemy of socialism I would be far more dangerous and not as persistence in the case of justice. The only fear I have been told about is that of M.L.'s controlling and poison nature which the above reveals how he makes personal attacks and has duped those who are not smart enough to gather actual evidence or even the other side of the story. What is justice and can it be carried out within socialism if this is how its members are treated? Why are there so many divides i.e. three socialist parties on the Florida ballot and countless subgroups? This simple one issue is the pin point of most current events going much deeper. The question is: Will M.L. continue to be an island in socialism or will socialism by it institutions make him truly an equal not to look above or control hate and fear of comrades out of their ignorance?

[Atlee]

Chegitz, I'm really sorry to see your personal messages posted like this. If you would like them deleted, I will delete them.

The thread asked the question and we can now clearly see how B.H. was stabbed in the back and lied about. If the truth is deleted then is our belief in socialism in action also backed by lies. I would like to think that all those who stand for socialism also stand for the truth and can be trusted. The only rat here is M.L. as we can now plainly see.

[Atlee]

Atlee should be banned. Not only for being a spammer, a troll, and a psycho. But because he is a reactionary right-wing fake leftist.

http://christiansocialistpartyusa.org/
(http://christiansocialistpartyusa.org/)
^click About and that's pretty much the only evidence you really need. He founded a party of crazy homophobic Third Positionists.

Nice try, I own up to 30 different websites and all are based on different and current tendencies within socialism. Taking one out of context is like saying that I too belong to a Christian group right here at RevLeft, which I do belong too as well. Will RevLeft ban that group and all those members as well?

[Atlee]

Please do, thanks. They are internal emails of the National Committee of the SPUSA.
You were a coward then and are still a coward today. You lied about B.M. and he read every hate filled post you ever sent out. That is what him turn on you... you did it all on your own.

[Crux]

The thread asked the question and we can now clearly see how B.H. was stabbed in the back and lied about. If the truth is deleted then is our belief in socialism in action also backed by lies. I would like to think that all those who stand for socialism also stand for the truth and can be trusted. The only rat here is M.L. as we can now plainly see.
B.H? And no, I see just cause. Where you stand is obvious, sadly, for you, you've only massively undermined your point. I think this behaviour in itself calls for a ban.

[Atlee]

B.H? And no, I see just cause. Where you stand is obvious, sadly, for you, you've only massively undermined your point. I think this behaviour in itself calls for a ban.

After M.L. made such a personal and viscous attack on B.H. I was given these to make them public. Opinion is mob mentality and has no business in the peoples' revolution for being the truth.

We need to ask ourselves for the basis of the revolution, truth? Those who backstab comrades like M.L. did here, should be taken to task. Do we not as revolutionaries advertise truth when it comes out in our own media? Yes, we do. Why is that? The revolution and growth thereof is based on being truthful and honest. If there is no truth then there is no trust and no growth.

[Robocommie]

Attlee, you're starting to sound like a real weirdo. Everything you posted makes you look bad. That's truth.

[blake 3:17]

Atlee, I can't understand your posts.

[Atlee]

Attlee, you're starting to sound like a real weirdo. Everything you posted makes you look bad. That's truth.

That is expected when there is only a one sided story. Is that the justice system you would back too? With that logic you would not have the right to defend yourself in court... which is what happened here with both A.Y. and B.H. here and is admitted to by the sole thread of opinions before or over actual facts.

[Atlee]

Atlee, I can't understand your posts.

Sorry. But feel free to ask questions and I will clear up anything I know from firsthand experience.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

The contents of the "Christian Social and Democratic Party" website is questionable to say the least. Atlee's name is down as the "founder" and is presumably the only member. It looks like a "starter site", Atlee presumably put up 29 other websites with more or less similar content. Which ever one seems to generate the most online interest he'll use to build an organization around. The blatant homophobia would be grounds for expulsions in most organizations I know of.

I still have a lot to learn myself but I feel the need now is for a focused revolutionary organization that is capable of providing education and direction to the working class. Eugene Deb's tragedy was not developing a revolutionary working class core within the original SP. The contemporary SP looks like they are committing the same mistake despite the presence of good comrades like Chegitz.

How could people like the two previously mentioned be allowed to create so much havoc?

[Crux]

That is expected when there is only a one sided story. Is that the justice system you would back too? With that logic you would not have the right to defend yourself in court... which is what happened here with both A.Y. and B.H. here and is admitted to by the sole thread of opinions before or over actual facts.
Dude, it's your side that makes you look bad. And only now do I realize Atlee is A.Y. Hahahahahahahaha. I will not respond to him any further. I suggest others do likewise until he is banned.

[Atlee]

The contents of the "Christian Social and Democratic Party" website is questionable to say the least. Atlee's name is down as the "founder" and is presumably the only member. It looks like a "starter site", Atlee presumably put up 29 other websites with more or less similar content. Which ever one seems to generate the most online interest he'll use to build an organization around. The blatant homophobia would be grounds for expulsions in most organizations I know of.

Actually that specific website has close to 100 members who are claim to be Christian and socialist. If a person is a one issue voter then they only see things one way. I also wrote "about 30" which means you have been trapped into now naming the other 29 "questionable websites". See how easy it is when someone like M.L. can take full advantage of those who rely only on opinion without fact. Does RevLeft now plan to ban the Christian group here I belong to and all of its members based on such flimsy opinion outside of facts?

List those 29 more here please:

I founded Deb's Tendency too and was a SP-USA member since 2004 and refounded where they failed in 2010. It has a group page here at RevLeft as well and is explicitly revolutionary. Based on the continued above thought does RevLeft plan to delete that group page and ban its membership too?

When only opinion rules the truth fails and the revolution dies.


I still have a lot to learn myself but I feel the need now is for a focused revolutionary organization that is capable of providing education and direction to the working class. Eugene Deb's tragedy was not developing a revolutionary working class core within the original SP. The contemporary SP looks like they are committing the same mistake despite the presence of good comrades like Chegitz.

When the internal 2004 group failed to continue the Deb's Tendency (http://debsiantendency.org/) I took it upon myself in 2010 to help comrades continue the Deb's tradition at all cost to me in providing the new platform that is just as open as RevLeft is now.


How could people like the two previously mentioned be allowed to create so much havoc?

Because we have within us each varied parts of the truth and only together can revolution grow. A house divided cannot stand.

[Atlee]

Dude, it's your side that makes you look bad. And only now do I realize Atlee is A.Y. Hahahahahahahaha. I will not respond to him any further. I suggest others do likewise until he is banned.

Then you admit from your bias your ignorance of not even knowing truly what it is you are reading. So when you are ever arrested at a protest don't ask for a lawyer, trial, evidence, law, justice, day in court, and place yourself in a 9x12 cell for life in darkness because opinion of yourself and actions have made you guilty.

Demand proof, ask for truth, cite sources, research evidence after collecting it.

Or you could continue reading Lord of the Flies (http://www.amazon.com/William-Goldings-Blooms-Critical-Interpretations/dp/0791098265/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1280538172&sr=8-1).

[Atlee]

Attlee, you're starting to sound like a real weirdo. Everything you posted makes you look bad. That's truth.

Again, that is opinion. What are the facts? Ask questions about what you have read, to prove you have read and understood what it is you are reading. See A.Y. and B.H. did not have access to what was above because of opinion was taken as truth. The fact is and remains there is no evidence, charges, trial, or conviction... there is only hate and it comes from a single source, M.L.

[Atlee]

This shit should be pretty entertaining when Chegitz sees it. I'll go make the popcorn.

From Brian Moore who is reading this on the side: 10:58 PM tonight
"Ha, making the popcorn! Too funny."

[Crux]

From Brian Moore who is reading this on the side: 10:58 PM tonight
"Ha, making the popcorn! Too funny."
Hahahahahahahaha. Now that, that is too funny.

[Crux]

The fact is and remains there is no evidence, charges, trial, or conviction... there is only hate and it comes from a single source, M.L.That's just, like, your opinion, man.

[Atlee]

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Can you prove it comrade of Nässjö (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nässjö,_Sweden)? Or is one opinion worth more than another? Neither have place in truth.

[Crux]

Can you prove it comrade of Nässjö (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A4ssj%C3%B6,_Sweden)? Or is one opinion worth more than another? Neither have place in truth.
The truth? You can't handle the truth.

[chegitz guevara]

Majakovskij, you don't understand, Atlee, and Atlee alone has a handle on the truth. And to make sure that no one else can get a handle on it, he changes it frequently.

[Atlee]

The truth? You can't handle the truth.

HAHAHAHA, I like your humor. That is what we need here for the revolution, a few good comrades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Few_Good_Men_(film)). *punt*

[Atlee]

Majakovskij, you don't understand, Atlee, and Atlee alone has a handle on the truth. And to make sure that no one else can get a handle on it, he changes it frequently.

Blah, blah, blah, give up this evidence and of me and him and lets take it to a real court room. Then we can post the whole thing here with videos to show how you lied.

[Crux]

Majakovskij, you don't understand, Atlee, and Atlee alone has a handle on the truth. And to make sure that no one else can get a handle on it, he changes it frequently.
He just doesn't get that with every word he proves the claims against him right, does he? Anyway I am out of moviequotes, where's a moderator when you need them?

[The Red Next Door]

Blah, blah, blah, give up this evidence and of me and him and lets take it to a real court room. Then we can post the whole thing here with videos to show how you lied.

I would like to tell you, if you had pull this shit off with us , you would be in deep trouble, that just really asine for you to post, private stuff on a website, watch by the police.

[chegitz guevara]

Even if half of what Atlee claims is actually true, one would still think that after three years, he'd have moved on with his life. It's just not healthy obsessing over me. Granted, I'm everything he'll never be: intelligent, popular, talented, successful, kind to small animals (other than scabby rats), handsome, well-spoken, modest; but Atlee should learn to be happy with what he has, whatever it is. I'm sure it's very nice.

[Atlee]

He just doesn't get that with every word he proves the claims against him right, does he? Anyway I am out of moviequotes, where's a moderator when you need them?

*paraphrasing* I may not be a RevLeft moderator but I play one at several other websites.

I hope that helps? :laugh:

[Atlee]

Even if half of what Atlee claims is actually true, one would still think that after three years, he'd have moved on with his life. It's just not healthy obsessing over me. Granted, I'm everything he'll never be: intelligent, popular, talented, successful, kind to small animals (other than scabby rats), handsome, well-spoken, modest; but Atlee should learn to be happy with what he has, whatever it is. I'm sure it's very nice.

I just fell out of my chair laughing so hard. Has anyone here besides me ever met and talked with chegitz? :laugh: I will only admit he has a good sense of humor and a vivid imagination. :cool:

[Crux]

*paraphrasing* I may not be a RevLeft moderator but I play one at several other websites.

I hope that helps? :laugh:
It's unsuprising. So let me try this again, you realize the behaviour you are engaging in here, from posting the internal material and forward, you've confirmed what's been claimed about you? And that's the truth.

[Atlee]

I would like to tell you, if you had pull this shit off with us , you would be in deep trouble, that just really asine for you to post, private stuff on a website, watch by the police.

All personal information was removed except where the person is obviously known i.e. where chegitz willfully brings B.H.'s name together with his. There is nothing private in what is called "public perception" of law. B.H. and I are most like the two best known socialists in Florida... I've had the police over to my place twice this year. What we need to ask is: "How is a revolution going to happen in hiding?" :confused:

I introduce myself to people all the time and give them my views. B.H. and I both give our opinions and stands to local reports with our pictures too. :)

The next question should be: What have I (you) done for the revolution?

[Atlee]

Majakovskij, you don't understand, Atlee, and Atlee alone has a handle on the truth. And to make sure that no one else can get a handle on it, he changes it frequently.

Then by all means, :che: cite some of the evidence from above as fact and not personal opinion. :redstar2000: This thread asked the question and when it did not get answers it liked from the truth more opinion came to light without further proof. :blink: Defying logic by magic?

[Crux]

All personal information was removed except where the person is obviously known i.e. where chegitz willfully brings B.H.'s name together with his. There is nothing private in what is called "public perception" of law. B.H. and I are most like the two best known socialists in Florida... I've had the police over to my place twice this year. What we need to ask is: "How is a revolution going to happen in hiding?" :confused:

I introduce myself to people all the time and give them my views. B.H. and I both give our opinions and stands to local reports with our pictures too. :)

The next question should be: What have I (you) done for the revolution?
I am sorry but, why is it B.H ? And Atlee being known and being "infamous" is not exactly the same thing. Do people introduce themself back to you when you start telling them of what seems to be your rather peculiar views or do they just keep on walking?

Got myself kicked out of an organization, started to harrass members of that organization and started a third positionist "christian socialist" website and CRUZADING FOR THE TRUTH! on the internet...oh no wait. That's you.

[Atlee]

I am sorry but, why is it B.H.? And Atlee being known and being "infamous" is not exactly the same thing. Do people introduce themself back to you when you start telling them of what seems to be your rather peculiar views or do they just keep on walking?

Actually I was replying to the thread and not to RevLeft. I know and M.L. knows what happened long before this and the fact remains between us whereas M.L. has chosen to pick the fight with me. Not the other way around. Or maybe I should make my point even more clear? On the flip side I find that there are two types of people, the one that does not care to know how the world works and does nothing and the other, we spend hours debating issues and facts.


Got myself kicked out of an organization, started to harrass members of that organization and started a third positionist "christian socialist" website and CRUZADING FOR THE TRUTH! on the internet...oh no wait. That's you.

Let us try that one again, M.L. usurped power by force using new members and not inviting old members who he tossed under the bus here in JAX. He lied to them and no one asked a single question, much like the one sided story we read here in our introduction.

Today, all those members are gone and have turned on M.L. because they realized that M.L. did in fact lie. M.L. has never had a single fact to "kick" anyone from the party. M.L. is currently using - hate - segregation law as his vetting process to treat the SPFL as a "private club". So do you and the other comrade here still support the Old South and segregation? M.L. does and that is a fact.

[Crux]

I highly doubt your credibility as a source, but even if it was anything remotely like what you describing, it would have been a very healthy action. You see I care about socialism not appeasing crackpots like yourself. And apparently so does chegitz, so good on him.

[Atlee]

... started a third positionist "christian socialist" website and CRUZADING FOR THE TRUTH! on the internet...oh no wait. That's you.

I am addressing this point more specific as a personal attack.

I did not start anything, I helped those socialists who have views that might not totally agree with other tendencies. I even help here at RevLeft with donations. Based on this above statement you just called RevLeft "third positionist" and called out several of RevLeft's Christian groups as not belonging here.

If I was "crusading", things would be far more worse and you would not know who I am when it happened. I should not feel the need to hide in a true revolution and being part of making it happen.

Lastly, I support several other tendencies in different ways but as a consultant since my profession is that of Social Sciences. My position has not changed and I do not care for liars or bullies.

This thread ask the question and it received the truth for better or worse. The NC of the SP-USA does not use or cite facts when making critical decisions concerning membership and communications. This is the major failure of their tendency's holding up their end of the revolution. If they were as open and honest as RevLeft then there would me more action and movement growth. Instead, they compartmentalize members and monitor words proven that the top rank and file cannot even trust each other.

When I joined the SP-USA in the late summer of 1999 the party was very open for the most part and there was lively open debate. This is not the case today and the numbers do not lie.

[Atlee]

I highly doubt your credibility as a source, but even if it was anything remotely like what you describing, it would have been a very healthy action. You see I care about socialism not appeasing crackpots like yourself. And apparently so does chegitz, so good on him.

Then we have something in common, "I care about socialism" and something apart in disagreement, "not appeasing crackpots" since I see chegitz as that "crackpot" making himself the center of Florida's socialism and if he is not kept in check could very well be the next Jim Jones Kool-aid Fest.

[BostonCharlie]

Man oh man what a Charlie Foxtrot - reading through this on my second cup of joe was a trip. Bad craziness.

Mr. Moore may have had some skills in getting time on the bourgeois media all right, but seeing some of his appearances in '08 he struck me as the car chasing dog who didn't know what to do with it once he did catch it. It would appear that the SPUSA needs to increase its discernment in choosing leaders.

Such is the state of the left in the good ol' Yoo Ess Hay. :bored:

[Atlee]

Man oh man what a Charlie Foxtrot - reading through this on my second cup of joe was a trip. Bad craziness.

Mr. Moore may have had some skills in getting time on the bourgeois media all right, but seeing some of his appearances in '08 he struck me as the car chasing dog who didn't know what to do with it once he did catch it. It would appear that the SPUSA needs to increase its discernment in choosing leaders.

Such is the state of the left in the good ol' Yoo Ess Hay. :bored:

The functionary mechanical problem is within the machine that there is not openness like there once was. This lack of communication has been used to abuse members who have left in droves which can be seen clearly from the representative delegate count at the national conventions comparatively speaking.

If somehow there is doubt as to where B.H. stands then visit his website (http://brianmoore2010.org) and watch his videos.

[Revy]

How surprising...he is running as a Democrat!
:rolleyes: He was sure playing us like a fiddle...

[Atlee]

How surprising...he is running as a Democrat!
:rolleyes: He was sure playing us like a fiddle...

Actually he was forced to run as one because M.L. forced B.H.'s hand when making such a personal and unprovoked attack. See M.L. has to approve all socialist candidates in Florida. The democrats were more than happy just to have candidates this year since they are taking a local beating. Note that he is still carrying the socialist flag into battle.

[Revy]

Um...back in 2006 he was running as a Green for Senate talking about the corruption of the two parties, now he is running as a Democrat for Governor. Nobody forced him to run as a Democrat...this just shows he doesn't oppose the two party system anymore.

the funny thing is since he is a political opportunist he would probably have more luck with the Greens (or independent, no primary necessary for that....) but he chose to become a loser in the Dem primary, because he is not going to win it, that is obvious. Does he really think he can win the Democratic primary with his political history? I'm laughing my ass off....

[Atlee]

Um...back in 2006 he was running as a Green for Senate talking about the corruption of the two parties, now he is running as a Democrat for Governor. Nobody forced him to run as a Democrat...this just shows he doesn't oppose the two party system anymore.

the funny thing is since he is a political opportunist he would probably have more luck with the Greens (or independent, no primary necessary for that....) but he chose to become a loser in the Dem primary, because he is not going to win it, that is obvious. Does he really think he can win the Democratic primary with his political history? I'm laughing my ass off....

Again, assuming and opinion are far from fact. The primary election for next month, August 24th, in the DEM slot only had one person who would be handed a win and she (Alex Sink) is very conservation and did not give voters an opportunity to have another vote. Seeing that M.L. had stated he would sue the state to keep socialists off the ballot, except himself of course, that B.H. would get two birds with one stone. B.H. gave the people a second voice for socialism and did not have to bother M.L. with actually attempting to give truth to socialism so M.L. has his little fiefdom intact.

[BostonCharlie]

If he's causing trouble for Democrats rather than Socialists then it's not a total waste of effort.

[Atlee]

If he's causing trouble for Democrats rather than Socialists then it's not a total waste of effort.

Exactly! We cannot hand them a win. I was going to run against two REPs in a local state senate race as a SPFL candidate, but M.L. handed one of them a sure thing and brought zero attention to socialism by keeping many off this years ballot. I was told long ago that "Even if you loose a fight, you will have gained some level of respect for taking a stand or beating." B.H. took out a personal loan of several thousands of dollars to pay for our cause, and, yet, here at RevLeft I see those who will not even give $20 to this very website they use (http://www.revleft.com/vb/misc.php?do=donlist).

[Atlee]

I never found him that smooth talking to be honest.

One, you do not live or vote in Florida or the USA.

Two, let us see for ourselves how smooth B.H. is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOAbtddz9cQ&feature=player_embedded

[Atlee]

Brian Moore always bugged me. I tried to read up on his positions and hoped I would come around to like him. I never did. His approach sounded so fake, quite opportunistic, not even socialist (social democratic at best?). This in turn lead to me standing in the polling booth for the 2008 elections just staring down at my sheet, wondering if I should write-in Cobra Commander. Point is: I hope this shift to the left you speak of leads to a good, authentic lefty next time.

Ever think to ask him before voting? (http://www.brianmoore2010.org/contact.htm) Or taken a fresh look at his issues page (http://www.brianmoore2010.org/issues.htm)?

[Kassad]

Atlee, this is just a formal warning. If you continue to post private messages and conversations in the public forum area, I'm going to issue you infractions. You obviously don't realize that reactionary aspects of society monitor these pages daily and that kind of information does not help our cause. I'm sorry I'm a little bit late on this, but take note of this fact because I will not tolerate it anymore.

[Atlee]

Atlee, this is just a formal warning. If you continue to post private messages and conversations in the public forum area, I'm going to issue you infractions. You obviously don't realize that reactionary aspects of society monitor these pages daily and that kind of information does not help our cause. I'm sorry I'm a little bit late on this, but take note of this fact because I will not tolerate it anymore.

I did respect the privacy of others in my actions for the truth and to show more of the whole story. I am more a direct action person to make sure we are all equals and not a blatant troll or hater. If I was, it would have been obvious. I kept my actions contained to the thread in respecting others. I did not fly off the handle and this can be seen in other threads as well. My goal is to be productive in the movement and address shortcoming where ever they may be.

I appreciate the warning as I knew I had it coming. I hope we can all appreciate the service RevLeft does provide to our movement. I look forward to having constructive words here and learning and teaching, a reciprocal, of our movements for revolutionary means.

The one thing I will not tolerate is personal attacks that have been continued by one source from complete fabrication.

[Revy]

Kassad, I think with his behavior and politics here and off this site there is enough justification to ban Atlee rather than just give him an infraction. At least a restriction, but he shouldn't be posting in the main forums.

I repeat, he founded a website called "Christian Social and Democracy Party USA". Listing himself as founder in the About page. The problem here is that they are a homophobic and conservative group. Yet I am somehow stating an "opinion" by pointing out the truth that is readily available for all to see.

Here (http://www.christiansocialistpartyusa.org/apps/links/) is where you can see what parties he supports (in other countries, too). Most of them are right-wing parties.

Here (http://christianfolkpartyofjacksonville.webs.com/) is his local group, Christian Folk Party. (go to Staff and you will see him there).

I'd rather just ignore him but it's obvious he has no place here and I would be doing a disservice to this forum if I did not speak up about it.

[chegitz guevara]

I learned a few years ago that there really isn't any point in arguing with Atlee. Facts, logic, and the English language all go out the window when dealing with him. He will glean onto a little tiny fact, and then distort it beyond all recognition, then build a huge towering edifice in worship to it.

For instance, he used to claim that the root of socialism is social, and that really what socialism is about is getting everyone together, and that by excluding him, we weren't being social, and therefore, were betraying socialism. When shown the French origins of the term, and it etymology, he just ignored it, and continued flogging that dead mule for a few years.

He is something of a sociopath, and like many sociopaths, he can be very charming and convincing when you meet him, and he'll win you to his side. It's for this reason, and this reason alone I acknowledge his existence. Because he lies to people about the Party.

Fortunately, all I have to do is get him started, and he self-immolates. Any illusions he may have cast over people are immediately destroyed. And it's a hell of a lot easier than a point by point refutation of a crazy person.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

This video is on the "Christian Folk Party" site.

http://christianfolkpartyofjacksonville.webs.com/localplatform.htm

Third video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrDlA939RVM&feature=player_embedded

One people, one faith, one language.....

Isn't this very similar to a political movement which had some popularity in Europe, between 1922-1945? So far this is not very impressive, I'm not sure I want to see the other 28 websites

[Atlee]

Kassad, I think with his behavior and politics here and off this site there is enough justification to ban Atlee rather than just give him an infraction. At least a restriction, but he shouldn't be posting in the main forums.

As I stated before, RevLeft has Christian groups too and that logic would have to do likewise with said members. It would be a bad choice and a negative reaction for the movement to be reactionary.

I do not control or tell others what to talk about on all my websites. Out of the many websites I support, including RevLeft, I do allow freedoms that most other sites consider taboo so that there is learned socialization through understanding and hard debate. I equally have very revolutionary websites that provide a free platform for open communication.


I repeat, he founded a website called "Christian Social and Democracy Party USA". Listing himself as founder in the About page. The problem here is that they are a homophobic and conservative group. Yet I am somehow stating an "opinion" by pointing out the truth that is readily available for all to see.

I did not list myself, one of the near 100 members created that page. But please feel free to give more than an opinion. You just told a lie from your misunderstanding about another human being.


Here (http://www.christiansocialistpartyusa.org/apps/links/) is where you can see what parties he supports (in other countries, too). Most of them are right-wing parties.

Here (http://christianfolkpartyofjacksonville.webs.com/) is his local group, Christian Folk Party. (go to Staff and you will see him there).

Does that website even exist? It looks like one of my Christian comrades put up a freebee website to me. I'll have to make a phone call this weekend about that.


I'd rather just ignore him but it's obvious he has no place here and I would be doing a disservice to this forum if I did not speak up about it.

You are free to not read the truth if the truth offends you. It is called "freewill".

[Atlee]

This video is on the "Christian Folk Party" site.

Third video.

One people, one faith, one language.....

Isn't this very similar to a political movement which had some popularity in Europe, between 1922-1945? So far this is not very impressive, I'm not sure I want to see the other 28 websites

I would like to see them because I did not even know this one existed. :mad: I'd like to know who the hell created it...

[chegitz guevara]

I would like to see them because I did not even know this one existed. :mad: I'd like to know who the hell created it...

I am shocked, shocked to find gambling going on at this establishment!

[Atlee]

I learned a few years ago that there really isn't any point in arguing with Atlee. Facts, logic, and the English language all go out the window when dealing with him. He will glean onto a little tiny fact, and then distort it beyond all recognition, then build a huge towering edifice in worship to it.

For instance, he used to claim that the root of socialism is social, and that really what socialism is about is getting everyone together, and that by excluding him, we weren't being social, and therefore, were betraying socialism. When shown the French origins of the term, and it etymology, he just ignored it, and continued flogging that dead mule for a few years.

He is something of a sociopath, and like many sociopaths, he can be very charming and convincing when you meet him, and he'll win you to his side. It's for this reason, and this reason alone I acknowledge his existence. Because he lies to people about the Party.

Fortunately, all I have to do is get him started, and he self-immolates. Any illusions he may have cast over people are immediately destroyed. And it's a hell of a lot easier than a point by point refutation of a crazy person.

A very neutral hair splitting. Maybe we have different dictionaries? But great try with the name calling, now show us you medical degree to make such a claim to defame fellow human being or tell us why you now speak so hypocritically when using two comrades mental illness as an excuse (scroll back to chegitz claims of wrongdoing)? Isn't doublespeak Orwellian?

[Atlee]

http://christianfolkpartyofjacksonville.webs.com/localplatform.htm



I would like to thank you for finding that site and bringing it to my attention. I called the service provider and had it taken down. I also made a local call and had the link removed.

This sounds like the same problem I had at Myspace when someone created three of me and caused problems there as well. I have long gone from there so if someone claims to me be at Myspace do not believe them.

[Atlee]

I am shocked, shocked to find gambling going on at this establishment!

Were you trying to screw with me? :blink: That wasn't even funny. :crying: I can see why some comrades would fly off the handle with me. You should have seen :scared: my face, NO, REALLY, I was floored. *not a joke*

[chegitz guevara]

From the Republic of West Florida group to your associations with Ron Paul types to your courting of the Tea Party, to your continued linking of neo-fascist and white supremacy groups in your "socialist" pages to your stealing a picture from Stormfront to attack SP co-chair Andrea Pason, you have associated with so many white supremacists and fascists, Atlee, that your claims of dismay are nothing more than crocodile tears.

[Atlee]

From the Republic of West Florida group to your associations with Ron Paul types to your courting of the Tea Party, to your continued linking of neo-fascist and white supremacy groups in your "socialist" pages to your stealing a picture from Stormfront to attack SP co-chair Andrea Pason, you have associated with so many white supremacists and fascists, Atlee, that your claims of dismay are nothing more than crocodile tears.

I don't know about any "Republic of West Florida group"?

I can say I know many republicans, democrats, tea, and greens... because I am a Social Scientist working on my Masters. By the way, Roni got excepted into the Ph.D. so I'll be visiting South Florida more often if you actually ever want to talk rather than snipe.

The American Socialist Voter website is an educational website. :redstar2000: The media and those who live in ignorance need better source material for the word "socialist" since it seems they are all mixing the terms. To us here, we know the difference. To the general public, they have not clue one. So, I made a searchable resource for them to read and work within and learn the differences seeing that I am into Social Sciences. :rolleyes:

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I would like to thank you for finding that site and bringing it to my attention. I called the service provider and had it taken down. I also made a local call and had the link removed.

This sounds like the same problem I had at Myspace when someone created three of me and caused problems there as well. I have long gone from there so if someone claims to me be at Myspace do not believe them.

Well, thank you for taking down the website. One less hate spewing fascist website to worry about.

Several theories present themselves. Either the "Christian Folk (should that be "Volk") Party is just a website, or it's a real organization of people who at least "network" with each other in some way. If this is the case either these people are computer illiterate and have never seen the website of their own organization, or....

the CKP is explicitly fascist. They're not conservative Christians, or even Tea Partiers. They're not just a "single issue group" (who's single issue happens to be the right to deny other people the right to be treated like humans because of their sexual orientation) they're bona fide 1930s style fascists.

Can I ask you to do one more little favor? Can I ask you to disband the Christian Folk Party? There's way too much much of this hate spewing bile going around as it is.

Thanks

[The Red Next Door]

The next question should be: What have I (you) done for the revolution?


That is not the point here and what have you done for the revolution? You been in this thing longer than me? I just started.

[theAnarch]

I am a Social Scientist working on my Masters.

I'm sorry I try to avoid personal attacks but that explains a lot.

[Atlee]

Well, thank you for taking down the website. One less hate spewing fascist website to worry about.

Several theories present themselves. Either the "Christian Folk (should that be "Volk") Party is just a website, or it's a real organization of people who at least "network" with each other in some way. If this is the case either these people are computer illiterate and have never seen the website of their own organization, or....

the CKP is explicitly fascist. They're not conservative Christians, or even Tea Partiers. They're not just a "single issue group" (who's single issue happens to be the right to deny other people the right to be treated like humans because of their sexual orientation) they're bona fide 1930s style fascists.

Can I ask you to do one more little favor? Can I ask you to disband the Christian Folk Party? There's way too much much of this hate spewing bile going around as it is.

Thanks

This is a new one on me. Do you have a link? I noticed it was not linked here. I was reading several sites that sound like this but to take down something like this there has to be a good reason i.e. one SDUSA verses the other SDUSA and the legal charges that they are fighting over. By the way, I was not a member of SDUSA. I did consulting website and artwork for the SDUSA which is another fact that was wronged against me.

[Nachie]

tl;dr

[Atlee]

That is not the point here and what have you done for the revolution? You been in this thing longer than me? I just started.

I am just about at the 30 year mark for socialism. I spent about $3,000 a year helping out different tendencies. I also give public meetings or get questioned by news reporters due to my high profile.

If you are just getting started then learn more by asking and then confirming everything you hear or read, :glare: this is my first piece of advice. We all have lots of opinion and there are plenty of sharks in the water, :eek: this is my first warning. At what I have seen here today it makes me wonder if my high profile has gotten the attention of some specific haters :sneaky: from the other side? I'll have to do some digging.

[Atlee]

I'm sorry I try to avoid personal attacks but that explains a lot.

I have run across things that scare the hell-out-of-me. But I have to thread the needle to learn things to then speak of them firsthand and write papers. I join their different list to gather perspectives to counter them before they become news or be ready when they hit the news. But, then again, some people jump to reactionary opinion rather then pick up the phone or email to ask questions. I think the RevLeft is doing a great service to the Left for better communication. As we know there are so many closed off groups or parties that things can get way out of control when the facts are so benign in reality. We have more in common then apart. So what if there are one or two issues differences when 80-90% is agreed upon for our combined movement. My thing is that I try not to split hairs when the general topic is socialism on the Left i.e. I belong to the Left Unity group here.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

This is a new one on me. Do you have a link? I noticed it was not linked here. I was reading several sites that sound like this but to take down something like this there has to be a good reason i.e. one SDUSA verses the other SDUSA and the legal charges that they are fighting over. By the way, I was not a member of SDUSA. I did consulting website and artwork for the SDUSA which is another fact that was wronged against me.

I was referring to the Christian Folk Party. The CFP was/is explicitly fascist.The site's down but I could retrieve it off my hard drive. You took their website down a couple hours ago. This is commendable.I'm sure it was a mistake and you were not connected w/this.

I don't know much about the SDUSA. As I understand they are a Pennsylvania based "right Schachtmanite" group, successor to a New York group with a similar name. This in turn was the rump SP which Max Schachtman took with him. Something like that.

[chegitz guevara]

I was referring to the Christian Folk Party. The CFP was/is explicitly fascist.The site's down but I could retrieve it off my hard drive. You took their website down a couple hours ago. This is commendable.I'm sure it was a mistake and you were not connected w/this.

Don't be sure of it. Atlee has a long history of flirting with WS groups.

[Robocommie]

From Brian Moore who is reading this on the side: 10:58 PM tonight
"Ha, making the popcorn! Too funny."

Tell Brian Moore I enjoyed watching him on the Colbert Report, even if everything Chegitz says is true.

[Atlee]

Don't be sure of it. Atlee has a long history of flirting with WS groups.

I have to have you tell me first what "WS" means to understand what it is you are saying? :confused:

[Atlee]

Tell Brian Moore I enjoyed watching him on the Colbert Report, even if everything Chegitz says is true.

I'll pass this on, but from what I understand he is reading this to some degree. Have you seen the two videos on his website (http://www.brianmoore2010.org/apps/videos/)?

[chegitz guevara]

A very neutral hair splitting. Maybe we have different dictionaries? But great try with the name calling, now show us you medical degree to make such a claim to defame fellow human being or tell us why you now speak so hypocritically when using two comrades mental illness as an excuse (scroll back to chegitz claims of wrongdoing)? Isn't doublespeak Orwellian?

One difference between us, Atlee, is I don't stalk you. I don't go out of my way to cause you grief. So when you go after comrades who suffer from different types of severe anxiety, in order to get them to blow up, and then parade that explosion around to show how horrible the Party is for allowing such people in it, it's a lot different than me pointing out you have the ability to charm people like most sociopaths, but that if we cross you in some way, the knives come out.

[Revy]

From the Republic of West Florida group to your associations with Ron Paul types to your courting of the Tea Party, to your continued linking of neo-fascist and white supremacy groups in your "socialist" pages to your stealing a picture from Stormfront to attack SP co-chair Andrea Pason, you have associated with so many white supremacists and fascists, Atlee, that your claims of dismay are nothing more than crocodile tears.

I didn't even notice that he had fascist videos on there but I am not surprised. I just read the main page and that was enough to show he is a right-wing crackpot.

[Atlee]

I was referring to the Christian Folk Party. The CFP was/is explicitly fascist.The site's down but I could retrieve it off my hard drive. You took their website down a couple hours ago. This is commendable.I'm sure it was a mistake and you were not connected w/this.

I don't know much about the SDUSA. As I understand they are a Pennsylvania based "right Schachtmanite" group, successor to a New York group with a similar name. This in turn was the rump SP which Max Schachtman took with him. Something like that.

I think the CFP was someone trying to make me look bad. I jumped all over that. I was lucky in that case, but there were times when I had to go to great lengths to have things removed at great expense and hassle. I am a big target here in a very southern town for my socialist views.

As a consultant for the SDUSA in the past I helped them write some of their basic works and created artwork. From what I know there have been some arguments that got out of hand and legal action was taken. One side, SDUSA-SPA is more Eugene Debs to Norman Thomas (http://socialdemocratsusa.org/) like verses the other SDUSA that is Third Way and Max Schachtman (http://www.sd21c.org/) like and there is a plenty of legalese to the point one had the others website erased for copyright violations. This is also true for democratic socialists in SP-USA (http://socialistparty-usa.org/) verses those in DSA (http://www.dsausa.org/dsa.html). I cannot count those other on down the spectrum. I know the list is too long. The list of pejorative calling is of equal length. We all need to put what we have in common or we can keep handing away our ideas that continue to be co-oped before revolution happens to appease the masses with "bread and circus".

[Atlee]

I didn't even notice that he had fascist videos on there but I am not surprised. I just read the main page and that was enough to show he is a right-wing crackpot.

Then by all means place your evidence and not your opinion forward. We are all entitled to our opinions, but we are not entitled to our own facts.

You just made a very hateful and personal attack.

[Atlee]

One difference between us, Atlee, is I don't stalk you. I don't go out of my way to cause you grief. So when you go after comrades who suffer from different types of severe anxiety, in order to get them to blow up, and then parade that explosion around to show how horrible the Party is for allowing such people in it, it's a lot different than me pointing out you have the ability to charm people like most sociopaths, but that if we cross you in some way, the knives come out.

Then we have a problem because I have no idea what you are talking about. I was only recently told that you stated those two had problems of a mental nature. What I do not get is how I connected with them? I have not talked to S.S. since the events of 2007, and D.E. in maybe several months... since he sent me an email stating he would "kill me". So what are you talking about here and do you have any examples?

[Atlee]

One difference between us, Atlee, is I don't stalk you.

I wanted to cite this point separately. I asked G.P. about a specific IP coming from D.E. and in my reply email G.P. claimed the D.E. was appointed by committee to watch (stalk) me. I found it sort of weird that G.P. would admit or want to do that, but it helps drive up my ratings, :blink: so thanks for the help?

[Atlee]

Tell Brian Moore I enjoyed watching him on the Colbert Report, even if everything Chegitz says is true.

I passed this on to him. :)

[IllicitPopsicle]

Hey, everyone, what's going... *looks around* ...on...?

*sees mess, backs away slowly*

Seems like a whole lotta drama for a socialist party.

[Kassad]

If Brian Moore is actually reading this page, I'd just like to quickly announce that he is a social-democratic piece of trash and the fact that he wants to call himself a socialist to cover for his liberalism is detrimental to the movement for socialism. We need workers revolution, not socialists in Congress.

[The Red Next Door]

Brian, YOU SUCK!!!!

[Atlee]

If Brian Moore is actually reading this page, I'd just like to quickly announce that he is a social-democratic piece of trash and the fact that he wants to call himself a socialist to cover for his liberalism is detrimental to the movement for socialism. We need workers revolution, not socialists in Congress.

A very strong opinion with added name calling. I sent this on to him to make sure he did read it. The reason I did so was to show the lack of actual reason and citing not one fact. I, as a Social Scientist cannot have opinions when I do my work, but I am forced to decipher this code without reason.

Fact: Every revolution in history around the world has had a congress of one sort or another because it is a form of government to make policy.

[Atlee]

lol. what is with this Social Scientist bullshit.

That is what the degree is called: "Social Sciences", Several Universities offer them after 4 years for a BS, 6 years for a Masters, and select universities offer a Ph.D. program.


As for Brian Moore I have already said a lot about him but his main platform plank is a state-run bank. If you think state bank=socialism then that is wrong.

Out of over 30+ listed issues all you have to write is the one point you wish to disagree with? This is part of the platform as purity test and fails the freedom from theory to practice.

Let us turn this 90 degrees and instead of reading threads based on ideological belief (theory) and talk about what we have in common (practice) to see what points can be viewed to grow the overall socialist movement.


And from the beginning I disagreed with Brian Moore being the 2008 candidate, I wanted Eric Chester, who would have been less embarrassing in my opinion, Eric Chester is actually a party veteran who knew his way around socialist theory, he even wrote a book about the labor party question in the United States. In fact the Convention results were 25 to Moore and 20 to Chester, so Moore only won by 5 votes.

More opinion and more factionalism, while he is left and liberal to the DP conservative he is to you moderate. All things political are relevant to what one knows or believes. You are more than free to have your opinion, just know that not everyone shares in it 100% with you and that is why E.C. lost not once, but twice. The first factionalists fight was really bad and cost the party plenty of members.

[IllicitPopsicle]

Can we not just dispense of all this silly nonsense and smash the state already?

[Atlee]

Can we not just dispense of all this silly nonsense and smash the state already?

If doing so was only so easy, :unsure: but we have to ask "To be replaced by what?" :confused: We have read history.

So ... what is your plan? :engles:

[KurtFF8]

That is what the degree is called: "Social Sciences", Several Universities offer them after 4 years for a BS, 6 years for a Masters, and select universities offer a Ph.D. program.

And, as I'm sure you know, the majority of students/graduates in the United States in these programs are in programs that are very pro-capitalist. Social Science at the American university does not equate in any way to Scientific Socialism. Yes it has an intertwined history in its rise as a discipline in today's context, but that doesn't equate the two. Most people who teach in these programs teach things like the Nash Equilibrium as if it were poof of the impossibility of an egalitarian society and how humans are inherently selfish, etc. etc.

[Atlee]

And, as I'm sure you know, the majority of students/graduates in the United States in these programs are in programs that are very pro-capitalist. Social Science at the American university does not equate in any way to Scientific Socialism. Yes it has an intertwined history in its rise as a discipline in today's context, but that doesn't equate the two. Most people who teach in these programs teach things like the Nash Equilibrium as if it were poof of the impossibility of an egalitarian society and how humans are inherently selfish, etc. etc.

I in fact, do not know. Please cite your facts so I and others can read them for ourselves.

I have not been taught that way and that is not how I teach from time to time as an assistant volunteer.

Painting with broad brushes wrongs everyone and is hatefully poor action and words.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Will someone just ban Brian Moore's watchdog already? This is absolutely ignorant, what he did when he first entered into this conversation was wrong, & should be banned because of such.

[Atlee]

Will someone just ban Brian Moore's watchdog already? This is absolutely ignorant, what he did when he first entered into this conversation was wrong, & should be banned because of such.

What was done to B.H. was what was done to many socialists who would support the revolution otherwise. Banning has been the death kneel of all factional groups. This is a plain fact that is echoed in pages here at RevLeft.

Here it is the beginning of a new month and I made a donation to support our cause through this website (http://www.revleft.com/vb/misc.php?do=donlist), what have all those who have been complaining done to help RevLeft or our cause? And where are the facts for truth and not name calling and opinion?

I do because I am revolutionary. I don't whine about change because I make change happen even as one person in my daily efforts.

[The Vegan Marxist]

What was done to B.H. was what was done to many socialists who would support the revolution otherwise. Banning has been the death kneel of all factional groups. This is a plain fact that is echoed in pages here at RevLeft.

Here it is the beginning of a new month and I made a donation to support our cause through this website (http://www.revleft.com/vb/misc.php?do=donlist), what have all those who have been complaining done to help RevLeft or our cause? And where are the facts for truth and not name calling and opinion?

I do because I am revolutionary. I don't whine about change because I make change happen even as one person in my daily efforts.

I've shown my support in this forum as well. But just because you put your dues in, that doesn't mean you have the right to post whatever you want & say whatever you want. There's rules within this forum, just like there's rules through a revolution, or a party. I don't give a shit how much you put into this forum, for it doesn't constitute a "do what you want" free card.

[Kotze]

I found the thread a bit puzzling, so maybe the following is a stupid question.
@Atlee: What is your stance on homosexuals, abortion, separation of church and state?

[Kassad]

A very strong opinion with added name calling. I sent this on to him to make sure he did read it. The reason I did so was to show the lack of actual reason and citing not one fact. I, as a Social Scientist cannot have opinions when I do my work, but I am forced to decipher this code without reason.

Fact: Every revolution in history around the world has had a congress of one sort or another because it is a form of government to make policy.

Name calling? Was it "name calling" when Lenin pointed out the reformism of the Mensheviks? Of course not, because this is just another petty example of what you and Brian Moore do: you avoid the matter at hand and use straw man arguments or accusations to conveniently brush off a legitimate assertion.

I don't really understand what facts you want me to cite. How about the fact that he's running under the banner of a capitalist party without any mention of the word socialism? By your label, Dennis Kucinich is a socialist. Or how about the fact that Brian Moore has never once said that proletarian revolution was necessary to overthrow capitalism? The simple fact is that Brian Moore belonged to the social-democratic tendency in Socialist Party USA that, in my opinion, is losing the battle to legitimate revolutionaries like Chegitz and others like him in the party. Moore upholds what the Socialist Party USA platform says: that once there are enough socialists in Congress, they can enact socialist reforms.

Newsflash about that: the bourgeoisie never has given and never will give up their seat as the ruling class. Elections will not change this, because the ruling strata of society will use inhumane and brutal means of maintaining its seat of power. Bourgeois elections cannot overthrow capitalism. A socialist revolution will.

So here's a call out from me, a Marxist-Leninist and a revolutionary that is actually calling for the overthrow of capitalism: Brian Moore, I would love to debate you and listen to you defend yourself instead of having others do it for you. Though I doubt he will come out from behind the curtain any time soon, I extend that open invitation to him because I am interested in seeing him defend his anti-communism and his blatant liberalism.

[KurtFF8]

I in fact, do not know. Please cite your facts so I and others can read them for ourselves.

I have not been taught that way and that is not how I teach from time to time as an assistant volunteer.

Painting with broad brushes wrongs everyone and is hatefully poor action and words.

It's a general trend in academia, especially Poli Sci departments. How you're not aware of this is confusing to me since you're apparently involved with Poli Sci.

The fact that you have to ask me for a source here is odd as well. That would be like me claiming "NeoLiberalism is the dominant ideology in American academia" and you respond "prove it!"

Things like this are pretty common knowledge to most Leftists involved with academia at all.

Poli Sci in America is full of analytical analysis and empiricism. The whole "let's look at rational actors in the economy" style of Poli Sci has been popular for some time now.

I suggest you watch this documentary, as it can help you understand what I'm getting at:

h7QtzHjj-bg

Edit: The documentary does a lot of the same kind of thing that Naomi Klein does: bad ideas lead to bad consequences. Something that Marxists like David Harvey have criticized as being idealistic of course.

Also I suggest you check this MR article out. http://monthlyreview.org/100501baran.php

[The Red Next Door]

What was done to B.H. was what was done to many socialists who would support the revolution otherwise. Banning has been the death kneel of all factional groups. This is a plain fact that is echoed in pages here at RevLeft.

Here it is the beginning of a new month and I made a donation to support our cause through this website (http://www.revleft.com/vb/misc.php?do=donlist), what have all those who have been complaining done to help RevLeft or our cause? And where are the facts for truth and not name calling and opinion?

I do because I am revolutionary. I don't whine about change because I make change happen even as one person in my daily efforts.


Now that is called the We have to Kiss your ass mentality. You are suppose to do those things, If you think that people own you for doing it, why become a fucking revolutionary?

[Atlee]

I've shown my support in this forum as well. But just because you put your dues in, that doesn't mean you have the right to post whatever you want & say whatever you want. There's rules within this forum, just like there's rules through a revolution, or a party. I don't give a shit how much you put into this forum, for it doesn't constitute a "do what you want" free card.

I agree, so why is there so much hate in what is posted against comrades who actually did nothing and got blamed for what amount to Lies told by chegitz? Taking hostile words and action against comrades is a counterrevolutionary and anti-social act. Demand proof and examine evidence before ever stating an single word of opinion.

Giving to, is a function thereof a revolutionary and not a "Get out of free jail" card.

[Atlee]

I found the thread a bit puzzling, so maybe the following is a stupid question.
@Atlee: What is your stance on homosexuals, abortion, separation of church and state?

An actual question is refreshing and demands personal facts, thank you for asking. :)

Homosexuals: As chegitz knows firsthand from me taking him (and wife) to a specific socialists party function for Walt Brown during his campaign for the SP-USA that two of my closet friends happen to be a "couple". It is not my lifestyle, but I do not go around telling or condemning others for their choice or genetic makeup.

Abortion: Like my comrade Walt Brown we did create some controversy because not only did he win the candidacy, he beat a nationwide referendum against him within the SP-USA. The reason for this, we both believe that the first Inalienable Right is the right to life. It seems without life there can be no other rights to follow, in fact. It seems that most members of the SP-USA were at least 51+% in agreement with this in 2003.

I am Catholic, I have two great adult children off to college now. Part of my caring for people is giving them a value higher than myself.

I do believe that there are choices we make on and within personal lives that should not be brought into governmental terms. How ironic that this leads into the next answer.

Separation of church and state: I believe that there should be a division between the hearth and home from that of the government attempting to cross the threshold of my doorway and likewise what church I attend or how I pray. While the church like the government has policy, one is of the people (government) and the church is of the believer (individual and family). There should be no crossover, but as we know there is from time to time. Our example is here at RevLeft in that we talk about government and have a Christian group and likewise the SP-USA has a committee on Faith & Socialism, I support with some funds a Christian Socialist Tendency so we see this is not an absolute.

In one educational class I took, we talked about the needs and wants of individuals and civil society. A portion of this hit on the concept of morals and the need to be civilized to one another and respectful and kind. Then we added from the psychological to the historical with early groups coming together under religion or beliefs. I hope this gives a basic point because I don't think I could write out several 16 week courses. :lol:

[Atlee]

Name calling? Was it "name calling" when Lenin pointed out the reformism of the Mensheviks? Of course not, because this is just another petty example of what you and Brian Moore do: you avoid the matter at hand and use straw man arguments or accusations to conveniently brush off a legitimate assertion.

That is incredibly off base opinion. I have the Lenin's Collected Works from Moscow and even Lenin gave evidence to each and every point. Lenin did not give wishy-washy "straw man" opinions.


I don't really understand what facts you want me to cite. How about the fact that he's running under the banner of a capitalist party without any mention of the word socialism?

Then maybe you should hear his say it for himself? (http://www.brianmoore2010.org/apps/videos/videos/show/9840392-straight-talking-brian-p-moore)


By your label, Dennis Kucinich is a socialist. Or how about the fact that Brian Moore has never once said that proletarian revolution was necessary to overthrow capitalism?

B.H. is has stated this in several different way on using the issues (http://www.brianmoore2010.org/issues.htm) and Kucinich has been attacked like Sanders has been attacked by the Tea Party and Republican Party for openly pushing the socialist's agenda.


The simple fact is that Brian Moore belonged to the social-democratic tendency in Socialist Party USA that, in my opinion, is losing the battle to legitimate revolutionaries like Chegitz and others like him in the party.

B.H. never joined or belonged to any tendency with or without the SP-USA, SDUSA-SPA, DSA or any other organization. If you have proof of this I would like to see it because it is an outrageous claim.



Moore upholds what the Socialist Party USA platform says: that once there are enough socialists in Congress, they can enact socialist reforms.

Ever revolution has had a congress, i.e. the most famous was the taking of the Tennis Court Oath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_Court_Oath) during the Age of Enlightenment, and has made reforms and that is a historical fact.


Newsflash about that: the bourgeoisie never has given and never will give up their seat as the ruling class. Elections will not change this, because the ruling strata of society will use inhumane and brutal means of maintaining its seat of power. Bourgeois elections cannot overthrow capitalism. A socialist revolution will.

As we all know, this is still scientific critical analysis that has been only limited in testing from history. The theory from practice and the freedoms have not yet taken place. If your crystal ball is working then by all means let us know and lead us to the revolution.


So here's a call out from me, a Marxist-Leninist and a revolutionary that is actually calling for the overthrow of capitalism: Brian Moore, I would love to debate you and listen to you defend yourself instead of having others do it for you. Though I doubt he will come out from behind the curtain any time soon, I extend that open invitation to him because I am interested in seeing him defend his anti-communism and his blatant liberalism.

You might want to take the time to spell out what is being asked. :confused:

[Atlee]

It's a general trend in academia, especially Poli Sci departments. How you're not aware of this is confusing to me since you're apparently involved with Poli Sci.

Poli Sci is a totally different degree program from Social Science and in fact there is zero "Political" involvement.


The fact that you have to ask me for a source here is odd as well. That would be like me claiming "NeoLiberalism is the dominant ideology in American academia" and you respond "prove it!"

Now a moot point since we are talking about two different issues.


Things like this are pretty common knowledge to most Leftists involved with academia at all.

Maybe on the Left Coast or in New England, but not here evidentially.


Poli Sci in America is full of analytical analysis and empiricism. The whole "let's look at rational actors in the economy" style of Poli Sci has been popular for some time now.

I suggest you watch this documentary, as it can help you understand what I'm getting at:

Sounds good because I am always up to learning something new and understanding perspectives from all views equally. :)

Update: I watched the video and it had plenty of theory on several levels and the Cold War cloak and dagger from Rand Corp. was something new. My thing is not the Poli Sci so much as it is understanding people and looking for ways to make respectful places which I'd guess is where my idea of being "social" comes from and it sure is not political because I understand from the Art of War (http://www.amazon.com/Art-War-Sun-Tzu/dp/1453689117/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1280703882&sr=8-1) the all things are at war.


Edit: The documentary does a lot of the same kind of thing that Naomi Klein does: bad ideas lead to bad consequences. Something that Marxists like David Harvey have criticized as being idealistic of course.

Also I suggest you check this MR article out. http://monthlyreview.org/100501baran.php

Will do. Thanks.

My update: Well written and a bit flowery for my taste. I do like the flavor though and agree with the opinion, "the author rejects the worn formula 'history without theory is dead—theory without history is empty'." Because, Social Science unlike Poli Sci is more a matrix bringing in more information then politics. I study psychology, in place of economics, I study philosophy instead of higher mathematics of economy. I look at civilizations, history, the demographics.

[The Red Next Door]

I agree, so why is there so much hate in what is posted against comrades who actually did nothing and got blamed for what amount to Lies told by chegitz? Taking hostile words and action against comrades is a counterrevolutionary and anti-social act. Demand proof and examine evidence before ever stating an single word of opinion.

Giving to, is a function thereof a revolutionary and not a "Get out of free jail" card.

The Hate is coming from you.

[Atlee]

The Hate is coming from you.

Please explain your opinion with citing facts. :confused:

[Atlee]

Now that is called the We have to Kiss your ass mentality. You are suppose to do those things, If you think that people own you for doing it, why become a fucking revolutionary?

"Own" what? I was asking members here give to that which they support? Do you support RevLeft and the revolution? If you do, then donate. I do.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Please explain your opinion with citing facts. :confused:

:confused:

How about since the time you entered this thread? That enough for you?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Then maybe you should hear his say it for himself? (http://www.brianmoore2010.org/apps/videos/videos/show/9840392-straight-talking-brian-p-moore)
I'm reading his site and I can't find any mention of being a socialist yet. I can't find him say one time he was even part of the Socialist Party, he says he's ran as a Democrat before though, no mention of the Socialist Party. He does say in his background:
"He managed, developed and implemented new projects, recruited, directed and supervised local staff, raised private sector funding and monitored and planned all program-related activities."

"For over five years he designed and implemented programs for public health projects (vaccination & health education) in Latin America in coordination with and on behalf of private corporations, religious institutions and non-governmental organizations. The projects were responsible for de-worming over one million children in low-income areas."
Sure sounds like a socialist to me raising a million people out of poverty with the help of private corporations.



B.H. is has stated this in several different way on using the issues (http://www.brianmoore2010.org/issues.htm) and Kucinich has been attacked like Sanders has been attacked by the Tea Party and Republican Party for openly pushing the socialist's agenda.I'm reading his issues page and I haven't found the part where he says a proletarian revolution is necessary or that it's even a necessity to overthrow capitalism. Can you show us exactly where he says these things because I can't find it.




B.H. never joined or belonged to any tendency with or without the SP-USA, SDUSA-SPA, DSA or any other organization. If you have proof of this I would like to see it because it is an outrageous claim.Well by reading his page it seems pretty obvious he isn't very revolutionary, we can only guess he sides with those jokes.


Ever revolution has had a congress, i.e. the most famous was the taking of the Tennis Court Oath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_Court_Oath) during the Age of Enlightenment, and has made reforms and that is a historical fact.*Facepalm*Yeah bourgeois revolutions usually had congresses. For example our congress, their congress, that other congress. In other words you're just reinforcing what Kassad said, that congress is inherently bourgeois, you fail at providing examples of workers taking power by using part of the greatest bourgeois revolution as an example. FAIL!




As we all know, this is still scientific critical analysis that has been only limited in testing from history. The theory from practice and the freedoms have not yet taken place. If your crystal ball is working then by all means let us know and lead us to the revolution. Well we've seen many times that winning seats in congress or presidential elections does not make the place socialist. But even if we wanted to try that out, why would Brian Moore be picked to run, he doesn't mention socialism, he doesn't mention revolution, nothing he says is even in the smallest sense radical. I mean look at his position on Israel: Solve the situation by giving aid more equally throughout the region instead of just favoring Israel. It's a joke. His stance on income taxes, he doesn't believe in them. He says he wants more people being home-owners to enjoy the American Dream(Which we know is not socialistic but capitalistic).

But no I guess he's just hiding his revolutionary side very well and is basically being opportunist, talking and walking like a capitalist but he must really be a hardcore socialist...bent on putting the working class in power through Congress.

Also why do you keep calling Moore B.H.?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

What the hell, I just read one of his blogs (http://www.brianmoore2010.org/apps/blog/entries/show/4356801-brian-s-campaign-notes-july-22-through-july-25)and this part interested me:


Upon my departure from the HolaTV station, as I was getting into my car, Bill McCollum, the Republican gubernatorial candidate, appeared right in front of me climbing into his black SUV, with his driver and aide. I got out of my car, approached him 100 feet away, and he got out of his car to shake hands. We exchanged pleasantries, and talked about the coincidence of running into each other. We had participated in a Tea Party forum last Sunday, July 17th, in Punta Gorda, Port Charlotte County, and here we are five days later, on the other side of the state, running into each other again. He had just left the nearby CBS 12 News TV station, after an interview.

We wished each other luck, and I thought wouldn’t it be providential if we were the two major party finalists in November. At least the competition between us would seem to be civil.
Sounds like a revolutionary socialist, attending Tea Party forums, being on good terms with Republicans who he is running against. At the Tea Party forum he gave a long list of where he agreed with the Tea Party. Then laid out 3 major issues he had with it. Those were he supported a state bank, he's opposed to offshore drilling, and wants single-payer healthcare. Notice how capitalism was not on his list of major issues he had with the Tea Party, how bosses weren't on the list, how exploiting the working class wasn't on the list. Opportunist is an opportunist.

[IllicitPopsicle]

Oww zinger.

Also, Atlee, our ideas on "smashing the state" are different, as I identify as an anarcho-communist and you a social democrat. :thumbup1:

[chegitz guevara]

*Facepalm*Yeah bourgeois revolutions usually had congresses. For example our congress, their congress, that other congress. In other words you're just reinforcing what Kassad said, that congress is inherently bourgeois, you fail at providing examples of workers taking power by using part of the greatest bourgeois revolution as an example. FAIL!

Atlee is using the fact that the word has more than one meaning to be deliberately asinine. Clearly Kassad was referring to the part of the American state called the U.S. Congress, not simply a generic gathering, aka, a congress. Atlee should have at least been more amusing and used the other meaning of congress, i.e., coitus.


Also why do you keep calling Moore B.H.?

I admit I am also curious. As I pointed out earlier, Atlee will seize on some obscure little fact, or supposed fact, an then run with it.

[chegitz guevara]

An actual question is refreshing and demands personal facts, thank you for asking. :)

Homosexuals: As chegitz knows firsthand from me taking him (and wife) to a specific socialists party function for Walt Brown during his campaign for the SP-USA that two of my closet friends happen to be a "couple". It is not my lifestyle, but I do not go around telling or condemning others for their choice or genetic makeup.

There is a lot to criticize Atlee for, but I never got the sense from him that he had a bone of prejudice in his body. He disrespects everyone equally.


Abortion: Like my comrade Walt Brown we did create some controversy because not only did he win the candidacy, he beat a nationwide referendum against him within the SP-USA. The reason for this, we both believe that the first Inalienable Right is the right to life. It seems without life there can be no other rights to follow, in fact. It seems that most members of the SP-USA were at least 51+% in agreement with this in 2003.

Actually, referenda in the SPUSA are impossible to win. They require a percentage of people to vote yes that exceeds the active membership of the Party. The fact that Brown survived the referendum means absolutely nothing, since 80% of the membership doesn't take part in the internal life of the Party.

Furthermore, Brown hid his anti-choice stance until after he was nominated. It was only uncovered some months after the fact, and it led to an immediate recall attempt.

Because of this, all of our candidates were asked in 2007 if they supported a woman's right to choose, to control her own body. All responded affirmatively. If Moore, as you report, Atlee, is anti-choice, it means he lied to the convention.

[The Red Next Door]

"Own" what? I was asking members here give to that which they support? Do you support RevLeft and the revolution? If you do, then donate. I do.

I donate to my party and i don't know how to use pay pal

[Atlee]

How about since the time you entered this thread? That enough for you?

Not specific and only opinion. Cite a specific fact.

[Atlee]

I donate to my party and i don't know how to use pay pal

I am sure that if you contact Q (http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?u=12488) you can be given more help in using PayPal. It is always good to support one's party. I just wish we had one in unity which is why I signed up when first joining RevLeft its Leftist Unity (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=461) group.

[Kassad]

Atlee, you're very good at dodging questions. Does a woman have the right to terminate her pregnancy on demand and without apology? Because if not, you are not a progressive and you should be restricted on this forum.

[gorillafuck]

RUGGLES WAS DISTRIBUTING LITERATURE SAYING JESUS WAS A BASTARD AND HIS MOTHER WAS A WHORE. THIS WAS IN 1811. HE WAS CHARGED WITH AN ATTACK ON THE NATION. THE REASONING BEING IS THAT AN ATTACK ON JESUS WAS AN ATTACK ON CHRISTIANITY. AN ATTACK ON CHRISTIANITY IS AN ATTACK ON A CHRISTIAN NATION AND SINCE WE WERE A CHRISTIAN NATION IT WAS AN ATTACK ON US HE WAS FINED 300 DOLLARS AND GIVEN 5 MONTH IN JAIL

The question begs then, did the Supreme Court recognize the United States as a Christian nation? Well, in 1892 the US Supreme Court made this ruling in a case. (Church of The Holy Trinity vs. The United States (http://www.languageandlaw.org/TEXTS/CASES/HOLYTRIN.HTM).) "No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is a Christian nation."

"We are not to attribute this prohibition of a national religious establishment to an indifference to religion in general, and especially to Christianity (which none could hold in more reverence, than the framers of the Constitution) . . . Probably at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, and of the first amendment to it . . . . the general if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation . . . The real object of the amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance, Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity [secularism], by prostrating Christianity; but exclude all rivalry among Christian sects, and to prevent any national ecclesiastical establishment which should give to a hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the national government." Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story on the First Amendment

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens, George Washington's farewell address

1983 - Oct. 4, 1982, Joint Resolution of Congress: "Whereas the Bible, the Word of God, has made a unique contribution in shaping the United States as a distinctive and blessed nation of people. Whereas Biblical teachings inspired concepts of civil government that are contained in our Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of The United States ... Whereas that renewing our knowledge of, and faith in God through Holy Scriptures can strengthen us as a nation and a people. Now therefore be it resolved ... that the President is authorized and requested to designate 1983 as a national "Year of the Bible" in recognition of both the formative influence the Bible has been for our nation, and our national need to study and apply the teachings of the Holy Scriptures." February 3, 1983 - President Ronald Reagan issued the above requested proclamation. President George Bush declared 1990 to be the international year of Bible reading

Almost nine out of 10 Americans (86%) say that they believe in God, even when given the choice of saying that they "don't believe in God, but believe in a universal spirit or higher power" (chosen by only eight percent). In fact, only five percent of the population choose neither of these choices and thus claim a more straightforward atheistic position. Gallup Poll, Christmas 1999

93% of North Americans are Christians, less than 2% are Jewish, and less than 2% are a combination of Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus. Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year

George Washington established Thanksgiving as a national religious holiday.
"This great nation was founded ... by Christians" ~Patrick Henry.
Our Forefathers established the US as a Christian nation.The "Christian Socialist Party USA" is a theocratic organization, it is obvious enough by their name but I would like to highlight this section of their website.

[Atlee]

There is a lot to criticize Atlee for, but I never got the sense from him that he had a bone of prejudice in his body. He disrespects everyone equally.

As stated, I support several tendencies or types of socialists. It is not a divisiveness like chegitz supports. I support all Leftist forms equally as a general socialist. I just do not care for chegitz brand of hatefulness and backstabbing which has been laid out in his own words to the national committee.




Actually, referenda in the SPUSA are impossible to win. They require a percentage of people to vote yes that exceeds the active membership of the Party. The fact that Brown survived the referendum means absolutely nothing, since 80% of the membership doesn't take part in the internal life of the Party.

Way to discount the membership and call them out. Chegitz and company have run off several hundred people from socialism i.e. 800+ in the SPPA alone from what I have read. I know here in JAX chegitz tossed my 15 comrades, SP-USA members, under the bus to hold his opinion without trial by having G.P. void the local charter so they could not vote. Very democratic, right? Then had a secret state convention without inviting the old membership to hold a vote to expel me without charge, evidence, trial, or notice. Is that the social justice system the SP-USA stands for?


Furthermore, Brown hid his anti-choice stance until after he was nominated. It was only uncovered some months after the fact, and it led to an immediate recall attempt.

Wrong again, he filled out a national questionnaire that was fully public. It was that no one on you side of the tendency bothered to read it until after the fact.


Because of this, all of our candidates were asked in 2007 if they supported a woman's right to choose, to control her own body. All responded affirmatively. If Moore, as you report, Atlee, is anti-choice, it means he lied to the convention.

Wrong again, I never reported Moore as having the anti-choice. Moore and I have different opinions but I took the high road and I helped him where chegitz went after him with hate. As socialists I look for common ground to work with other socialists. I do not use a platform or hate law as a purity test. We each have different knowledge and experiences and I have to respect that even if I disagree with 10% or 1% because none of use will be always in agreement. Hate is a weapon socialists should never fire, it is poor public relation and gives the enemy reason.

[Atlee]

Atlee, you're very good at dodging questions. Does a woman have the right to terminate her pregnancy on demand and without apology? Because if not, you are not a progressive and you should be restricted on this forum.

That means you personally are a one issue voter with a bias opinion and are looking for any excuse to hate and make personal attacks. So based on your logic that is we had a United Socialist Party with a 100 issue platform and anyone who disagreed with 1 point is or cannot be a member. That leads to hate and divide and why Florida has 3 different socialist parties. How pathetic it is you would support hate and divide in this forum.

[Revy]

so Atlee you are tolerant of gays, huh? then why did you create your Christian Social and Democracy Party website which is homophobic and opposed to gay rights. or will you continue to deny that you created the site, even though it lists you as the Founder.

[Kassad]

That means you personally are a one issue voter with a bias opinion and are looking for any excuse to hate and make personal attacks. So based on your logic that is we had a United Socialist Party with a 100 issue platform and anyone who disagreed with 1 point is or cannot be a member. That leads to hate and divide and why Florida has 3 different socialist parties. How pathetic it is you would support hate and divide in this forum.

So you're telling me you can't answer a simple question?

[Revy]

That means you personally are a one issue voter with a bias opinion and are looking for any excuse to hate and make personal attacks. So based on your logic that is we had a United Socialist Party with a 100 issue platform and anyone who disagreed with 1 point is or cannot be a member. That leads to hate and divide and why Florida has 3 different socialist parties. How pathetic it is you would support hate and divide in this forum.

is it a small point that a woman should have the right to choose? I think not. You can't be a socialist and a conservative, sorry.

[Atlee]

The "Christian Socialist Party USA" is a theocratic organization, it is obvious enough by their name but I would like to highlight this section of their website.

Since that is one of many site I cannot speak for the 100+ members there. I can only speak for myself. Weird that one person is being personally attacked when RevLeft has a similar group under its wings.

Theo (God) cratic (rule) is wrongheaded thinking because the title does not match the word. Being Christian and being Socialist are both people in struggle. May Leftists have this and today in many faiths even outside of Christianity there are developing thoughts. Some churches are now speaking up on important issue socialists stand for such as marriage, or even being a member of the church. Without bringing these issues to the light for kitchen table conversations there might not be places for people to go and learn about each other, to respect the choices each of us makes. Do we want to be respected in what we do? I believe the answer here is, "Yes."

[Atlee]

So you're telling me you can't answer a simple question?

I am telling you that you are looking for an excuse to cause hate and it is very clear for all to see.

[Atlee]

is it a small point that a woman should have the right to choose? I think not. You can't be a socialist and a conservative, sorry.

Open a history book and learn that it can be depending on perspective. When a movement starts off as liberal to make change either fundamental or reform and said change has taken place, the movement then becomes conservative over time to set in place protections until the next revolution. History does repeat itself because those who do not learn it are doomed to repeat it.

[gorillafuck]

Since that is one of many site I cannot speak for the 100+ members there. I can only speak for myself. Weird that one person is being personally attacked when RevLeft has a similar group under its wings.

Theo (God) cratic (rule) is wrongheaded thinking because the title does not match the word. Being Christian and being Socialist are both people in struggle. May Leftists have this and today in many faiths even outside of Christianity there are developing thoughts. Some churches are now speaking up on important issue socialists stand for such as marriage, or even being a member of the church. Without bringing these issues to the light for kitchen table conversations there might not be places for people to go and learn about each other, to respect the choices each of us makes. Do we want to be respected in what we do? I believe the answer here is, "Yes."
You can be a christian and still be a socialist. But being personally christian (while still promoting lgbt and womens liberation) is different from being in a party that allows it's website to contain statements promoting theocracy.

I saw the christian leftists group on revleft and they are not the same as your party because they are leftists who are personally christian, not people who want some kind of christian state.

[Kassad]

I am telling you that you are looking for an excuse to cause hate and it is very clear for all to see.

I am telling you that you cannot answer a simple question because you know you are a patriarch and a reactionary. If you are not, why is it so difficult to answer my question?

[Revy]

Atlee, your response to the criticism of your website is to insinuate that we oppose Christians being on RevLeft which is absurd. The fact you are Christian is not the problem. It is the political views that are being presented.

[Atlee]

so Atlee you are tolerant of gays, huh? then why did you create your Christian Social and Democracy Party website which is homophobic and opposed to gay rights. or will you continue to deny that you created the site, even though it lists you as the Founder.

I did not create it to be homophobic but I can address it after I go there and take a read. I have several different people that work or are contacts for each site. I cannot do all the work myself.

There are many people that found different organizations and have the best laid plans. This does not mean all will go well or that there will not be arguments between members e.g. SP-USA, SDUSA, and DSA.

[Atlee]

Atlee, your response to the criticism of your website is to insinuate that we oppose Christians being on RevLeft which is absurd. The fact you are Christian is not the problem. It is the political views that are being presented.

Amazing, you answered before I even posted my response. Either you have a crystal ball or you too are looking to make a personal attack from only opinion? I cannot believe the amount of hate coming from here towards another and other socialists because of hair splitting points. It is like an implosion that the movement will not grow or unite because of this.

Would you like to see more LEFT leaning ideas brought into society and a healthy growing movement? If "Yes" then stop dividing the baby. If "No" then leave because you are hurting the struggle.

[gorillafuck]

A womens right to bodily autonomy is not a hairsplitting issue, it's an issue that I know a fuckload of girls and women who would be pissed off about if they lost it.

[KC]

You're the one openly allying with and defending people who are against women's rights and we're the ones spreading hate. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

:rolleyes:

[Atlee]

A womens right to bodily autonomy is not a hairsplitting issue, it's an issue that I know a fuckload of girls and women who would be pissed off about if they lost it.

And in the end it will not be me or any other man who will make that choice for them. My ex-wife and my current wife have plenty of autonomy, one chose to have my children and the other did not. I respect them both equally. A a man, I am one vote and really have to control or say in their business. If I did, then I will have crossed a line. I respected each women's voice and body.

[Atlee]

You're the one openly allying with and defending people who are against women's rights and we're the ones spreading hate. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

:rolleyes:

That would imply a tendency, I do not belong a tendency. I support multi-tendency for pluralism. Socialism by its institutions further democracy. Individuals choose their own path or paths in life depending on variables.

[gorillafuck]

And in the end it will not be me or any other man who will make that choice for them. My ex-wife and my current wife have plenty of autonomy, one chose to have my children and the other did not. I respect them both equally. A a man, I am one vote and really have to control or say in their business. If I did, then I will have crossed a line. I respected each women's voice and body.
This is vague and confusing, I don't know what you are trying to say.

Just tell us whether you support a womens right to bodily autonomy, which is up to and including the right to have a abortion performed.

[KC]

That would imply a tendency, I do not belong a tendency. I support multi-tendency for pluralism. Socialism by its institutions further democracy. Individuals choose their own path or paths in life depending on variables.

Yes you support "the freedom" of those who are against women's rights on the basis of "pluralism". We got that. This means that you are defending them. You are the one promoting the spread of hate.

[Atlee]

This is vague and confusing, I don't know what you are trying to say.

Just tell us whether you support a womens right to bodily autonomy, which is up to and including the right to have a abortion performed.

I am sorry you lack the maturity to understand what a life well lived gives to wisdom. I cannot explain such a thing in simple or divisive terms.

[gorillafuck]

I am sorry you lack the maturity to understand what a life well lived gives to wisdom. I cannot explain such a thing in simple or divisive terms.
You're right, I'm not full of wisdom nor do I claim to be. But that's not fucking relevant.

[Atlee]

Yes you support "the freedom" of those who are against women's rights on the basis of "pluralism". We got that. This means that you are defending them. You are the one promoting the spread of hate.

By implying "You" meaning me, there is a singling out which is clearly covered in and should be understood as, "Their" and "Variables". This does not imply on my part that I would pretend to control or force anything on anyone. It is wrong and mean-spirited to make cases that have no basis in fact.

[KC]

By implying "You" meaning me, there is a singling out which is clearly covered in and should be understood as, "Their" and "Variables". This does not imply on my part that I would pretend to control or force anything on anyone. It is wrong and mean-spirited to make cases that have no basis in fact.Yes, I am referring directly to you as an individual. It doesn't matter whether or not you are openly anti-choice; by supporting and defending anti-choicers who are against the emancipation of women (whether on the basis of "freedom of expression," "unity," "freedom of criticism," or whatever trashy way in which you attempt to justify it) you implicitly further their cause and show yourself to be implicitly against women's rights yourself.

This isn't something you can sit on the sidelines over. You are implicitly defending bigotry and, thus, are yourself a bigot.

[Atlee]

You're right, I'm not full of wisdom nor do I claim to be. But that's not fucking relevant.

I agree, the question to try and bring out hate is in fact irrelevant.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Atlee why can't you just provide a simple answer. It really is a simple yes or no question you know. Also you seem to have accidentally skipped over my criticism of what you said, what I said can be found here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1819962&postcount=189) and here. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1819973&postcount=190)

[Atlee]

Yes, I am referring directly to you as an individual. It doesn't matter whether or not you are openly anti-choice; by supporting and defending anti-choicers who are against the emancipation of women (whether on the basis of "freedom of expression," "unity," "freedom of criticism," or whatever trashy way in which you attempt to justify it) you implicitly further their cause and show yourself to be implicitly against women's rights yourself.

This isn't something you can sit on the sidelines over. You are implicitly defending bigotry and, thus, are yourself a bigot.

If there ever was a hateful statement then this one by KC fits the bill. So KC want to force someone to take a side. I think I read this in a past argument years ago, "Fucking for Virginity" was the slogan title. It makes just about as much sense. KC writes that people have a choice, but then tries to force a personal opinion and name calling in hate. Not the smartest or well thought out plan.

[IllicitPopsicle]

I'm laughing at this thread right now. It's pure comedy. :laugh:

[KC]

If there ever was a hateful statement then this one by KC fits the bill. So KC want to force someone to take a side. I think I read this in a past argument years ago, "Fucking for Virginity" was the slogan title. It makes just about as much sense. KC writes that people have a choice, but then tries to force a personal opinion and name calling in hate. Not the smartest or well thought out plan.Yes, Attlee, I am being hateful towards you. I think you are views are reactionary as fuck and you are an anti-woman bigot, and I hate you. Now stop whining about how much hate I'm spreading and get the fuck off this forum you fucking anti-woman bigot.

And by the way, I never forced you to take a side, I merely said that you can't sit on the sidelines. You chose your side, and it was the side of the conservatives who want to keep women in bondage. You disgust me and I hate you. I hate you. Hate hate hate.

[Atlee]

Atlee why can't you just provide a simple answer. It really is a simple yes or no question you know. Also you seem to have accidentally skipped over my criticism of what you said, what I said can be found here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1819962&postcount=189) and here. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1819973&postcount=190)

If the answer was simple we would not be having this conversation, now would we?

Skipping over might be because the RevLeft forums are not all sent. I get some and not others. I am also getting so many that I cannot answer them all in a timely fashion. I subscribe to several thread, but this one is the only place where there is controversy due to my insider knowledge of the topic which is more than from the original poster.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

If the answer was simple we would not be having this conversation, now would we?

Skipping over might be because the RevLeft forums are not all sent. I get some and not others. I am also getting so many that I cannot answer them all in a timely fashion. I subscribe to several thread, but this one is the only place where there is controversy due to my insider knowledge of the topic which is more than from the original poster.
We would not be having this conversation if you just stopped dodging the question actually, you're just beating around the bush like a coward would do. Anyways I sent you what I said so you can respond back to them...if you have anything to say at all, if you don't mind beating around the bush more.

[Atlee]

I'm reading his site and I can't find any mention of being a socialist yet.

I linked it to the video where he loudly states, "I am a Socialist." You went reading away from the provided link when it was not in text.


I can't find him say one time he was even part of the Socialist Party, he says he's ran as a Democrat before though, no mention of the Socialist Party. He does say in his background:
"He managed, developed and implemented new projects, recruited, directed and supervised local staff, raised private sector funding and monitored and planned all program-related activities."

He cannot say he is part of the "Socialist Party" since he was expelled without charge, evidence, trial, or appeal. M.L. has to approve all SPFL candidates. The only person that was approved to run in 2010 was M.L. himself of cultism.


"For over five years he designed and implemented programs for public health projects (vaccination & health education) in Latin America in coordination with and on behalf of private corporations, religious institutions and non-governmental organizations. The projects were responsible for de-worming over one million children in low-income areas."
Sure sounds like a socialist to me raising a million people out of poverty with the help of private corporations.

Moore knows firsthand the damage caused and lives to commit direct action. His record is very socialist without waver to our combined world cause.


I'm reading his issues page and I haven't found the part where he says a proletarian revolution is necessary or that it's even a necessity to overthrow capitalism. Can you show us exactly where he says these things because I can't find it.

The average voter in Florida would not know what that meant. Most Floridians have an 8th to 9th grade reading level statewide. What he did was create terms common to them at their level. Often time we who are more academic forget that the world we live in has not reached the reading level of Cuba with a much better educational system.


Well by reading his page it seems pretty obvious he isn't very revolutionary, we can only guess he sides with those jokes.

*Facepalm*Yeah bourgeois revolutions usually had congresses. For example our congress, their congress, that other congress. In other words you're just reinforcing what Kassad said, that congress is inherently bourgeois, you fail at providing examples of workers taking power by using part of the greatest bourgeois revolution as an example. FAIL!



Well we've seen many times that winning seats in congress or presidential elections does not make the place socialist. But even if we wanted to try that out, why would Brian Moore be picked to run, he doesn't mention socialism, he doesn't mention revolution, nothing he says is even in the smallest sense radical. I mean look at his position on Israel: Solve the situation by giving aid more equally throughout the region instead of just favoring Israel. It's a joke. His stance on income taxes, he doesn't believe in them. He says he wants more people being home-owners to enjoy the American Dream(Which we know is not socialistic but capitalistic).

But no I guess he's just hiding his revolutionary side very well and is basically being opportunist, talking and walking like a capitalist but he must really be a hardcore socialist...bent on putting the working class in power through Congress.

Also why do you keep calling Moore B.H.?


I have fat fingers and am constantly going back to fix typos I find.

B.M. took out a personal loan to go against the conservative DEM who would have been handed a win. For our cause B.M. cites many of our planks in his issues to provide employment, respect, and dignity for workers. Hairsplitting has gotten us nowhere fast and has harmed many would be socialist supporters along the way. Having three socialist parties in one state is a dead give away of our problems.

[Atlee]

We would not be having this conversation if you just stopped dodging the question actually, you're just beating around the bush like a coward would do. Anyways I sent you what I said so you can respond back to them...if you have anything to say at all, if you don't mind beating around the bush more.

More name calling, force, and intimidation will do more harm than good to the cause as a whole as if we need more examples then the three socialist parties here in Florida.

This is why I support multi-tendency and am a general overall type socialist for more unity of the Left. These tactics are literally killing socialism by hate and fear.

[KC]

this is why i support bigots and am a general overall type socialist for more unity of the left with those who support the continued bondage of women.

ftfy

[Atlee]

Yes, Attlee, I am being hateful towards you. I think you are views are reactionary as fuck and you are an anti-woman bigot, and I hate you. Now stop whining about how much hate I'm spreading and get the fuck off this forum you fucking anti-woman bigot.

And by the way, I never forced you to take a side, I merely said that you can't sit on the sidelines. You chose your side, and it was the side of the conservatives who want to keep women in bondage. You disgust me and I hate you. I hate you. Hate hate hate.

You came here to me, I did not go to you. If you do not want to have respectable dignified conversation on an intellectual level then this is freewill showing yourself the door. I am glad you admitted your hate because it is the first step to recovery. I wish you the best.

[Atlee]

ftfy

:confused: I am not up to speed on shorthand code.

[KC]

If you do not want to have respectable dignified conversation on an intellectual level

This isn't some cute little "intellectual discussion" this is the issue of whether or not women should be allowed the right to their own bodily autonomy and you have put yourself squarely on the side of the hatemongering bigots who wish nothing more than to have women enslaved through childbirth and through the collective guilt of a society that continually puts down women's sexuality as morally reprehensible.

I have no desire to have any kind of "respectable dignified conversation" with a right wing lunatic such as yourself who attempts to subvert true leftist struggle for women's rights on the basis of "freedom of discussion/opinion/criticism". You are the worst kind of reactionary there is.

Moreover, you've continually shown in this thread that you're not interested in having any kind of actual discussion; with the way you've been dancing around the questions posed to you it's quite clear that you're here to pursue your own agenda and it's not going to go very far. Your attempt to hide your own anti-woman prejudices is fooling nobody on this board, no matter how many questions you dodge.

I fully support any action that chegitz has taken against you and your kind in attempting to drive your lunatic selves out of leftist organizations everywhere. Maybe you should go join the Tea Party, or go register on Stormfront. You'll fit right in.

[Atlee]

What the hell, I just read one of his blogs (http://www.brianmoore2010.org/apps/blog/entries/show/4356801-brian-s-campaign-notes-july-22-through-july-25)and this part interested me:

Sounds like a revolutionary socialist, attending Tea Party forums, being on good terms with Republicans who he is running against. At the Tea Party forum he gave a long list of where he agreed with the Tea Party. Then laid out 3 major issues he had with it. Those were he supported a state bank, he's opposed to offshore drilling, and wants single-payer healthcare. Notice how capitalism was not on his list of major issues he had with the Tea Party, how bosses weren't on the list, how exploiting the working class wasn't on the list. Opportunist is an opportunist.

The tactic of standing on the opposite street corner have there place with more youthful activists, but old people have learned from taking lumps it is safer to be on camera in the snakes den speaking as fellow human beings to make them reason in a civil manner. Just know he carried the red flag in there and the Tea Party knew it. Every revolutionary should hope for the chance to create the spark of opportunity for revolution since it will never arrive at your computer or doorstep.

[Atlee]

This isn't some cute little "intellectual discussion" this is the issue of whether or not women should be allowed the right to their own bodily autonomy and you have put yourself squarely on the side of the hatemongering bigots who wish nothing more than to have women enslaved through childbirth and through the collective guilt of a society that continually puts down women's sexuality as morally reprehensible.

I have no desire to have any kind of "respectable dignified conversation" with a right wing lunatic such as yourself who attempts to subvert true leftist struggle for women's rights on the basis of "freedom of discussion/opinion/criticism". You are the worst kind of reactionary there is.

Moreover, you've continually shown in this thread that you're not interested in having any kind of actual discussion; with the way you've been dancing around the questions posed to you it's quite clear that you're here to pursue your own agenda and it's not going to go very far. Your attempt to hide your own anti-woman prejudices is fooling nobody on this board, no matter how many questions you dodge.

I fully support any action that chegitz has taken against you and your kind in attempting to drive your lunatic selves out of leftist organizations everywhere. Maybe you should go join the Tea Party, or go register on Stormfront. You'll fit right in.

I am just going to ask that KC and everyone scroll up to the title of this thread. This is the ONLY issue in the thread. I have humored the personal attacks more than one should have to under any reason or logic. I am now asking the if you are here for any other reason then please start your own thread on side topic because it has no place here.

I will ignore future topics not covered by the title in effort not to address the root cause.

[Atlee]

I'm laughing at this thread right now. It's pure comedy. :laugh:

Trust me, you and I are not the only ones. For me it is funny how ideologues want to reduce to the lowest common denominator humanity, yet sad, to see how far we still must struggle for socialism to become a reality.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I linked it to the video where he loudly states, "I am a Socialist." You went reading away from the provided link when it was not in text.Sorry I missed that video, I didn't have my headphones with me so I couldn't hear any sound. So that's one time he says he's a socialist on that whole website from what I've seen.




He cannot say he is part of the "Socialist Party" since he was expelled without charge, evidence, trial, or appeal. M.L. has to approve all SPFL candidates. The only person that was approved to run in 2010 was M.L. himself of cultism.
First of all who is M.L.? And it's not that he doesn't say he's not part of the SP because apparently he's not, it's that he doesn't ever say that he was. He talks about his past, but never mentions anything about the Socialist Party as if that never happened. He says "I ran as a Democrat for congress in X year and ran for president in..." but forgets to mention he did it as the Socialist Party candidate. It's like he's ashamed of admitting he was ever part of it, take that with the fact that he's been accused of being opportunist and that being a socialist isn't very convenient during elections usually, and you get the picture. Come on he's at a Tea Party forum and doesn't mention that he has a major issue with capitalism, that would have been numero uno on my list of what a major issue with the Tea Party is to me.



Moore knows firsthand the damage caused and lives to commit direct action. His record is very socialist without waver to our combined world cause.But he's appealing to people by saying he did this without government, through private means, saying he did it through the private sector. He's putting it out there that he's done stuff on behalf of corporations but forgets to mention anything about socialism. Opportunist is opportunist.


The average voter in Florida would not know what that meant. Most Floridians have an 8th to 9th grade reading level statewide. What he did was create terms common to them at their level. Often time we who are more academic forget that the world we live in has not reached the reading level of Cuba with a much better educational system.
I see the poor Floridians are too dumb to understand what the overthrow of capitalism means but understand stuff like:
"Brian supports the continued role of the space industry in Florida via the federal government. However, he also would advocate that the state be a partner, with the federal government, in retraining NASA's engineers and supportive staff, in the new areas of development alternative fuels, mass transportation, oil spill correction and prevention, and the development of new commercial products for future space exploration"
If that was really the reason why then what would be the point of even writing all that crap in the "Issues" part of the page, the average worker is too dumb to understand it according to you. I am not an academic, I have not gone to college, I failed English I and III, but I still understand the concept of having control over the place I work in with my fellow workers.

B.M. took out a personal loan to go against the conservative DEM who would have been handed a win. For our cause B.M. cites many of our planks in his issues to provide employment, respect, and dignity for workers. Hairsplitting has gotten us nowhere fast and has harmed many would be socialist supporters along the way. Having three socialist parties in one state is a dead give away of our problems.
He is a social democrat, he offers the workers a better standard of living true, but does not offer the workers an escape from being subordinate to bosses, he doesn't offer the workers an escape from exploitation, from alienation, but he offers private ownership of houses for everybody! I'm not against socialists getting involved in elections, I was/am with the PSL in getting involved in elections. But when their candidates run they're not embarrassed to say they're socialists, in fact they tell everybody the real problem(Capitalism) and tell them socialism is the answer to the problem. Brian Moore on the other hand runs as a Democrat and never mentions socialism in his whole platform because he thinks he won't get elected as an openly socialist candidate(or because he thinks workers are too stupid to understand the word. Which reason is worse?) and instead tries to appeal to people by implying he'll create private sector jobs and that everybody will have a house.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Atlee, just answer the fucking question that Kassad asked, for it determines where you stand politically.

[IllicitPopsicle]

Trust me, you and I are not the only ones. For me it is funny how ideologues want to reduce to the lowest common denominator humanity, yet sad, to see how far we still must struggle for socialism to become a reality.

DO NOT WANT

Keep me out of your shit bro!

[A Revolutionary Tool]

More name calling, force, and intimidation will do more harm than good to the cause as a whole as if we need more examples then the three socialist parties here in Florida.

This is why I support multi-tendency and am a general overall type socialist for more unity of the Left. These tactics are literally killing socialism by hate and fear.
I wouldn't have to name call, "force"(WTF when?), and intimidate(Again, WTF when?) if you just answered the damn question. I am a general overall type of socialist for more unity of the Left type of guy but there's a line that shouldn't be crossed over by socialists and one of them is being pro-life. Just like I won't support racism, I'm not going to support something that's anti-woman in the name of unity with sexism.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Ever think to ask him before voting? (http://www.brianmoore2010.org/contact.htm) Or taken a fresh look at his issues page (http://www.brianmoore2010.org/issues.htm)?
Not impressed. You really like sucking his cock, don't you? He's a social democrat, I am not interested, even after checking out his new issues page. From the looks of his history, he runs just for the sake of trying to gain power. Or maybe he wants to feel important? Personally, I don't know. But from what I see, he's willing to go wherever he's welcomed...

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Not impressed. You really like sucking his cock, don't you?
Homophobe!

[Atlee]

Sorry I missed that video, I didn't have my headphones with me so I couldn't hear any sound. So that's one time he says he's a socialist on that whole website from what I've seen.

I think screaming it into the microphone for a nationwide political report would make it clear enough for the world to see and hear.



First of all who is M.L.?

chegitz (http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?u=15864)



And it's not that he doesn't say he's not part of the SP because apparently he's not, it's that he doesn't ever say that he was. He talks about his past, but never mentions anything about the Socialist Party as if that never happened.

It is there on his wiki and it is not a secret he was on the ballot just two years ago here in Florida as a socialist. M.L. it seems does not want to have or support any socialists for elected office. I am not a mind reader so we can ask him why he does what he does.



He says "I ran as a Democrat for congress in X year and ran for president in..." but forgets to mention he did it as the Socialist Party candidate. It's like he's ashamed of admitting he was ever part of it, take that with the fact that he's been accused of being opportunist and that being a socialist isn't very convenient during elections usually, and you get the picture. Come on he's at a Tea Party forum and doesn't mention that he has a major issue with capitalism, that would have been numero uno on my list of what a major issue with the Tea Party is to me.

This does prove one thing, we all see what we want to see. I guess no one here saw the Gay Pride Day pictures? Or the public protest pictures against war and for Gaza? I am just pointing to some of the obvious since the human psyche tends to only remember the negative reinforcer instead of the positive passive of acceptance. Since the personal attack that has been now been made clear he was wronged by unjust and unfounded negative actions, I am sure the B.M. just wants to leave well enough along and work with socialist within the other two socialist parties or Leftist leaning independent voters.



But he's appealing to people by saying he did this without government, through private means, saying he did it through the private sector. He's putting it out there that he's done stuff on behalf of corporations but forgets to mention anything about socialism. Opportunist is opportunist.

He helped gather food, clothing, and medicine as part of an NGO for people in need. Would you let human being starve, die from illness, or live in rags?



I see the poor Floridians are too dumb to understand what the overthrow of capitalism means but understand stuff like:
"Brian supports the continued role of the space industry in Florida via the federal government. However, he also would advocate that the state be a partner, with the federal government, in retraining NASA's engineers and supportive staff, in the new areas of development alternative fuels, mass transportation, oil spill correction and prevention, and the development of new commercial products for future space exploration"
If that was really the reason why then what would be the point of even writing all that crap in the "Issues" part of the page, the average worker is too dumb to understand it according to you. I am not an academic, I have not gone to college, I failed English I and III, but I still understand the concept of having control over the place I work in with my fellow workers.

Maybe you did not hear the news? Obama just was here and laid off several hundred workers and we have an 11.7% unemployment rate. The NASA issue is tied to educational needs to bring up education with hope of finding a job worth working for the future of humanity.


He is a social democrat,

I would like to see direct evidence of this claim because I know for a fact it is not true. It is an opinion.


he offers the workers a better standard of living true, but does not offer the workers an escape from being subordinate to bosses, he doesn't offer the workers an escape from exploitation, from alienation, but he offers private ownership of houses for everybody! I'm not against socialists getting involved in elections, I was/am with the PSL in getting involved in elections. But when their candidates run they're not embarrassed to say they're socialists, in fact they tell everybody the real problem(Capitalism) and tell them socialism is the answer to the problem. Brian Moore on the other hand runs as a Democrat and never mentions socialism in his whole platform because he thinks he won't get elected as an openly socialist candidate(or because he thinks workers are too stupid to understand the word. Which reason is worse?) and instead tries to appeal to people by implying he'll create private sector jobs and that everybody will have a house.

Have you ever read from another famous democratic socialist who used low key tactics, Norman Thomas' "Creeping Socialism"? Working smart is sometimes better than working hard, but you or anyone else is free to break stone in the sun all day or would you invent a machine to do that for you?

[Atlee]

Not impressed. You really like sucking his cock, don't you? He's a social democrat, I am not interested, even after checking out his new issues page. From the looks of his history, he runs just for the sake of trying to gain power. Or maybe he wants to feel important? Personally, I don't know. But from what I see, he's willing to go wherever he's welcomed...

Hate, poison, name calling, labeling without citation, and personal attack, I would say personal opinion here is questionable because no one can figure out how bad they screwed up and no one wants to admit they were wrong so the response is the primal id.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

I would like to see direct evidence of this claim because I know for a fact it is not true. It is an opinion.
His stances are pretty close to european/scandinavian social democracy. He doesn't want to overthrow capitalism, he just wants to make it tolerable and enjoyable. A slow, evolving process, that will somehow eventually lead to socialism... thus, he is a social democrat.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Have you ever read from another famous democratic socialist who used low key tactics, Norman Thomas' "Creeping Socialism"? Working smart is sometimes better than working hard, but you or anyone else is free to break stone in the sun all day or would you invent a machine to do that for you?

Norman Thomas also claimed that people would "unknowingly" support socialism through the Democrats, that the democrats would eventually become the socialists, which is absolutely bullshit. The liberals, the democrats, w/e, are upholders to the capitalist system, in which makes Norman Thomas' views of Socialism revisionist. Ever read "Combat Liberalism"?

[Atlee]

I wouldn't have to name call, "force"(WTF when?), and intimidate(Again, WTF when?) if you just answered the damn question. I am a general overall type of socialist for more unity of the Left type of guy but there's a line that shouldn't be crossed over by socialists and one of them is being pro-life. Just like I won't support racism, I'm not going to support something that's anti-woman in the name of unity with sexism.

Like I told KC (scroll back), this thread is under the title of Brian Moore and topics outside of that can be started elsewhere.

There is a reason for multiple socialist parties and for those parties to have several tendencies. They all cross lines and this is what divides us all whether we like it or not and this is a common well know fact.

[Atlee]

Norman Thomas also claimed that people would "unknowingly" support socialism through the Democrats, that the democrats would eventually become the socialists, which is absolutely bullshit. The liberals, the democrats, w/e, are upholders to the capitalist system, in which makes Norman Thomas' views of Socialism revisionist. Ever read "Combat Liberalism"?

Then you counter another comrade's opinion who condemned conservatism, irony of the juxtaposition within our multi-fastied movement.

It is true that Moore is running as a DEM and it is true that 70 DSA members are currently in the U.S. Congress right now pushing socialism along. Sure it isn't rioting and violence for some romantic version.

Older people don't tend to be in good shape to fight civil wars between the reds and the whites. So words and papers are their tools. When you reach retirement age like B.M. then tell us what you learned.

[Atlee]

His stances are pretty close to european/scandinavian social democracy. He doesn't want to overthrow capitalism, he just wants to make it tolerable and enjoyable. A slow, evolving process, that will somehow eventually lead to socialism... thus, he is a social democrat.

That does not make him anything. This type of thing is hair splitting, pure and outright opinion that has done incredible harm to socialism across the board and worldwide.

Tell us your plan to "overthrow capitalism" and we can all consider what we want to send off to the Moore campaign.