cause for catholic paedophilia: celibacy or homosexuality?

[punisa]

I just stumbled upon a today's news clip which shows certain catholic cardinal (second in command in Vatican, after Pope) claim that celibacy is not the cause for paedophilia cases inside church - the cause is homosexuality.

direct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oppbeLQk5Bs

This will certainly create an outrage from GLBT communities (and justified).

Reason why I'm posting this here is my question that has to do with psychology.
Were there any studies being conducted as to why are there (obviously) many cases of paedophilia among catholic priests?
Is it the celibacy? And how does the celibacy affect a person in the long run?
Or is it some hidden information that the church will offer you protection if caught in act? So the potential paedophiles flock into priesthood?

Whatever the reason might be, I believe there has to be some connection with human psychology.
Anyone more knowledgeable on the topic wishing to start? please do

[Sasha]

It's Not the Crime, It's the Cover Up

Posted by Dan Savage (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/ArticleArchives?author=259) on Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 12:28 PM

Someone needs to explain that to him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2y8fBZVeqU&feature=player_embedded


And then tell him that we take it back: it's the crime too, apolodouche.
We expect God's representatives on earth—men who claim for themselves the power to absolve other people of their sins and who believe they have a divine right to place limits on other people's sexual and reproductive freedoms—to hold themselves to a slightly higher standard when it comes to CHILD RAPE than, say, school teachers who make no such claims. And if the church hadn't worked so hard to cover up the crimes committed child rapists in the priesthood—and worked so hard to enable ordained child rapists to continue raping children—we wouldn't be finding out about all the cases of children who've been raped by Catholic priests all at once. And if the church had taken action against ordained child rapists when they were exposed—by going to the police, assisting in the prosecution of these criminals, and defrocking them (intimidating the victims, silencing witnesses, and subjecting the rapists to "counseling" before shuffling them off to new parishes where they could rape again does not count as "taking action")—maybe there wouldn't be quite so many cases of child rape to talk about. You see, the Catholic Church's cover ups made it possible for many ordained/career child rapists to prey on hundreds of children over many decades. Which is why the cover up of these crimes—which is ongoing (claims that media reports about these crimes are a part of an orchestrated anti-Catholic campaign are the next stage of the cover up)—matters.
I'm running out the door and don't have time to do the math—or check this guy's facts—but there are 6.8 million teachers (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/007108.html) in the United States compared to 41,489 priests (http://www.usccb.org/comm/catholic-church-statistics.shtml). I would hope that the church's apolodouche isn't suggesting that Catholic parents shouldn't be upset when priests rape their children because priests don't rape as many children as, say, teachers do in real numbers. Unless, of course, the apolodouche works for The Onion:
VATICAN CITY—Calling the behavior shameful, sinful, and much more frequent than the Vatican was comfortable with, Pope Benedict XVI vowed this week to bring the widespread pedophilia within the Roman Catholic Church down to a more manageable level. Addressing thousands gathered at St. Peter's Square on Easter Sunday, the pontiff offered his "most humble apologies" to abuse victims, and pledged to reduce the total number of molestations by 60 percent over the next five years. "This is absolutely unacceptable," Pope Benedict said. "It seems a weakening of faith in God has prevented our priests from exercising moderation when sexually abusing helpless minors."
...
"The truth is there will always be a little bit of molestation—it's simply unavoidable," Vatican spokesperson Rev. Federico Lombardi said. "But the fact that young boys have gotten much more attractive over the past few decades is no excuse for the blatant defiance of church limits that have been in place for centuries."
"The majority of priests don't want to molest kids at all," he added. "But for those who do, we must make sure they're doing it at a reasonable rate."


what he said

[Sasha]

Blaming the Media Didn't Do It, Blaming the Victims Didn't Do It, Blaming Anti-Semites Didn't Do It, Blaming the Jews Didn't Do It...

Posted by Dan Savage (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/ArticleArchives?author=259) on Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:54 PM

...maybe blaming the gays—again—will "defuse the sex scandal (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63B4TR20100412)" rocking the Catholic Church:

It is homosexuality, not celibacy, that is linked to pedophilia, the Vatican's Secretary of State Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone said on Monday, seeking to defuse the sex scandal that has battered the Roman Catholic Church.... "Many psychologists and psychiatrists have shown that there is no link between celibacy and pedophilia but many others have shown, I have recently been told, that there is a relationship between homosexuality and pedophilia," he told a news conference in Santiago. With its celibacy requirement the Catholic Church self-selects for sexually- and socially-stunted freaks, and the church's position on homosexuality—"intrinsically disordered," "evil"—isn't going to attract healthy or well-adjusted homosexuals to the priesthood. It's going to attract disordered, evil homosexuals, and, as we've seen, the church is only too happy to roll out the welcome mat for these men, and the hierarchy—from the pope on down—will bend over backwards to protect, aid, and abet child-raping scum. As for the "link" between homosexuality and pedophilia, take it away Rob (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV5PbrTySxY&feature=player_embedded).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV5PbrTySxY



and that too

[Ernest Valdemar]

Most psychologists agree that the phenomenon of prison rape, in the vast majority of cases, has nothing to do with homosexuality. Rather, it is the product of coerced celibacy.

The same applies to Roman Catholic priests. It is significant that other religious denominations, e.g. Protestants, who do not insist on strict celibacy for their clergy, do not seem to have a comparable incidence of child sexual abuse.

[punisa]

Most psychologists agree that the phenomenon of prison rape, in the vast majority of cases, has nothing to do with homosexuality. Rather, it is the product of coerced celibacy.

The same applies to Roman Catholic priests. It is significant that other religious denominations, e.g. Protestants, who do not insist on strict celibacy for their clergy, do not seem to have a comparable incidence of child sexual abuse.

I'd say that this makes a lot of sense. Many studies have proven prison rape committed mainly by heterosexuals. Although I'm puzzled as to why the numbers are larger in the US compared to Europe.

Concerning priests, if we agree that celibacy is the problem, how come they don't find some other "outlet"? Perhaps priest-priest sex.
And what about the nuns?
I guess this also happens, but secrecy prevents any info leaking into public.

I would also guess that the amount of "strictness" enforced by the church and the public creates these conditions.
For example - in my country, Catholicism in the northern parts of Croatia is much more loosely practised. There have been many many examples where a priest had a mistress. The whole village would know about it, but not really care too much.
I even knew a guy whose dad was a priest.
But in the southern parts, story is much different. Such "incidents" would create an outrage among the people and be considered utmost heresy.

Regarding the latest abuse scandals. There is a big media campaign waged against Catholic church. How come there is no "big" scientific study which would blame celibacy and be put under the spotlight?

[Sasha]

I'd say that this makes a lot of sense. Many studies have proven prison rape committed mainly by heterosexuals. Although I'm puzzled as to why the numbers are larger in the US compared to Europe.



a number of reaons i already can come with are; we (at least in the netherlands) have an prissonsystem way less designed to put prisoners up agaist each other and to dehumanise convicts, prisongangs etc are unknown of, prison times are way shorter and we keep the "disturbed" convicts (psychopaths, sociopaths etc) in an separate system.
oh, and longer time punished prisoners can get "private" visits with their partner once in a while.

(not to say that this is the answer btw, prisons should still be abolished but at least its better over here than in the US)

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Slavoj Zizek makes the case that endemic child abuse exists in the CC not so much because of priestly celibacy but because of the structure of the Church itself. The Catholic Church is essentially a closed corporation. Priests are considered to be intermediaries with god, hence are a privileged caste. Much of the institution of the CC is designed to protect and continue this.

Celibacy has to be a big part of the equation though. Many if not most Catholic priests are psychosexually immature.

The US and Western Europe are "suffering" a huge shortage of priests. I have a theory that the lgbt rights movement may have something to do with this. Traditionally a young gay man from a Catholic family would join the priesthood, essentially because of lack of any other options. LGBT movements and communities over the past 30 years have created other options. I am not at all equating paedophilia w/homosexuality, please don't think this. I am equating paedophilia with sexually immature individuals protected by a self perpetuating closed caste.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

I think it's a bit inappropriate to claim pedophilia is the result of either homosexuality or celibacy. Obviously, homosexuality isn't a cause. The reason it gets equated as one is political. Since pedophiles happen to engage in "homosexual" acts, people think that means they are homosexual. Homosexuals aren't attracted to prepubescent boys, to my knowledge. It's something altogether different.

My objection to the celibacy claim is with respect to virginity, in particular. Some people have anxiety and/or circumstances that make them unable or afraid of engaging in sex. I've yet to do so, and I have no interest or intention to engage in pedophilia or rape, for that matter. I think it's rather offensive to imply that because a person "isn't getting any action," they'll degrade into sex crimes. "Maybe" people will very little self-discipline will do so, but I think you really have to be somewhat disturbed already.

Priests are self-hating "guilt machines" according to Nietzsche. Perhaps they profession attracts people who already have "corrupt" natures. They psychologically are inclined to believe this nonsense about "humans as sinners" and "the possibility of salvation" because they are subconsciously aware of their own perversions. This doesn't mean all priests meet this criteria.

I'm skeptical of claims that structures do anything but "enable" the ability to exploit children. The causation of psychological inclination is typically molded in childhood or by traumatic experience. There is even some argument to be made that pedophilia is a genetic predisposition.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I think it's a bit inappropriate to claim pedophilia is the result of either homosexuality


You are right in this regard. I had a pet theory that the shortage of priests in the US is partly because of the lgbt rights movement.There are of course many other factors-decline of religiosity, integration or dissolving of traditionally Catholic ethnic communities, etc. My comment was misjudged. I've been involved in lgbt politics myself and I apologize if I have offended anyone.

There is of course nothing wrong w /voluntary celibacy and it shouldn't be at all equated w/paedophilia. Its just one of the many ways humans can exist as sexual beings.

For some people though, the sex drive can be explosive. Something has to give. If one chooses voluntary celibacy there are ways of dealing with it other than the proverbial male "cold showers and chewing on ice". The CC doesn't understand this. They pretend the problem (which appears to be enormous-a sex abuse phone hotline in Germany got 1,000 calls the first day) doesn't exist, then when the public backlash reaches crisis proportions, their defensiveness reaches bizarre levels, as in equating the Church w/the victims of the Nazi Holocaust.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

I still think that the main reason for the high level of pedophiles in the CC is the requirement of celebacy. Most people will somtime in there life have some sort of close relationship that will include sexual activity and even if they right now at the moment arent able to "have some action" they havent choosed it. Thats why some of the people that are going to live in celebacy by theire own will will be pedophiles that just know that they cant be able to live out their fantasys. Unfortunatly they have found one way. Just to clearify I dont mean that people with out a partner, mature virgines are a psychos, moore that psychos get attracted to the chuch because there they can "hide".

[Obrero Rebelde]

Paedophilia is a sexual attraction towards kids, and surely, there are priests who must have that attraction and prefer sex with kids to sex with adults. Straight male paedophiles go for young girls, gay male paedophiles, for young boys, and I suppose bisexual male paedophiles can go either way. However, for all intents and purposes, anyone who isn't 100% heterosexual in this society is considered Queer, so bisexual IS queer.

I've heard there are more incidents of gay paedophilia compared to straight paedophilia among the Roman Catholic priesthood. I would tend to believe it, considering that the priesthood and men's and women's religious orders have traditionally through history served as the dumping grounds for Catholic families to send their homosexual kids, thereby preserving and enhancing the family reputation by having a priest or nun in the family, rather than a fag or dyke. That has gone over well enough as a social accommodation of homosexuality in Catholic societies through the ages in the Faith of my father, and my father's father, and my father's father's father, et semper. And we Catholic families all know that what's good enough for dad is good enough for anyone.

Of course, too, a lot of Catholic kids who think they're gay or lesbian -- especially those who aren't too socialized with their peers -- will join the religious orders believing it's the only way to reconcile their inner conflict and confusion about sexuality, life purpose and their future lives. They figure if they become priests or nuns, they'll at least have dignity in society and not have to worry about becoming socially stigmatized or isolated and growing old and going on to become lonely bitter ole queens or dykes. They embrace Holy Mother Church for protection from the gay bashing society "out there" as they live out their days in the safe confines of their cloistered lifestyles. The perfect closet, and Holy Mother Church can be such a "co-ing" codependent, ya know?

Celibacy may be causal to a priest breaking down and having sex with a child even if he isn't ordinarily attracted to kids, simply because kids are easier to "con" into a quickie and "safer" because they can be coerced into keeping their mouths shut (well, after sex anyway).

Since it is said that those abused sexually in their childhood often find later in life that they, too, have the compulsion to have sex with kids. If there's truth to this, then maybe the institutions in our society that are charged with the protection of the innocents will need to devise ways to discover whether adults entering any profession or vocation where they are in constant contact with kids are survivors of child sexual abuse themselves. They may need to be reviewed for the paedophile profile and channeled into some more "appropriate" sort of profession or vocation so that they don't put kids at risk of being sexually exploited and abused.

Gee, all this to protect kids?

I dread to think just how much Big Brother we'll have to expect in our lives if we have to go to these sorts of lengths to "eradicate" our societies of child sexual predators.

One thing we should all remember is that all-too-often those who make themselves out to be champions of child protection and anti-child sexual abuse turn out to be predatory types themselves. Ya know? Like the most homophobic of Christian preachers have often turned out to be queer themselves?

Are we turning into a society hellbent on watching each other's every move these days with suspicion?

That seems to be the trend we're headed for.

[CartCollector]

Concerning priests, if we agree that celibacy is the problem, how come they don't find some other "outlet"? Perhaps priest-priest sex.
And what about the nuns?
I guess this also happens, but secrecy prevents any info leaking into public.


This probably happens, but I think there's a few factors here:


Celibacy may be causal to a priest breaking down and having sex with a child even if he isn't ordinarily attracted to kids, simply because kids are easier to "con" into a quickie and "safer" because they can be coerced into keeping their mouths shut (well, after sex anyway).
With priests, there's the chance that they'll squeal if you try to get with them.
Also, there's a possibility that this does happen (straight and gay sexual relationships between clergy) but the news doesn't report it because it isn't as shocking as child abuse.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Homosexuality is not a factor - celibacy may have an impact but personally I doubt it. What was/is a key factor is power. No one should think that this is just paedophilia - there were signifcant levels of violence involved in many if not most cases.

Those who have suggested that many gay men and women who joined the religious orders in the past were conflicted about their sexuality particularly in an arch conservative and sexually repressed Ireland are correct. Celibacy may also have played into this. However, in the reformatories and the industrial schools where most of these crimes were carried out (and most of the paedophiles were stationed there at one time or another in the ministry) were characterised by significant levels of violence.

In 1982 corporal punishment was abolished in Irish schools (against the opposition of the church) in an educational system that was and still is controlled by the Catholic Church. Depending on the school, the level of violence would range from moderate to down-right extreme. I finished school the year before corporal punishment was abolished and I spent my time in a school controlled by the Christian Brothers and initially the nuns. The beating started at four years of age and didn't stop once. Weapons (used by nuns, brothers and lay teachers although the brothers were by far the most vicious) varied from rubber hoses, leather straps, the edge of a ruler on the back of your knuckles to fists to kicks. Depending on the teachers it could be extreme, but it was always constant (including from female teachers - one of whom constantly punched students). There was only one teacher out of a school of about 30 who didn't hit the students and people used to fail exams to get into his class. Any excuse was use, the most common was not doing your homework or not being able to do the spelling or do the maths or answer the questions.

And don't for one moment think that the nuns were any better, they weren't. The seperation of boys and girls from an early age contributed to the problems. And if you went home and told your parents you got hit in school, you would probably get a hiding from them as well (and it happened to me) - the priest, the nun, the christian brother could do no wrong.

Bad and all as the schools were - the industrial schools were far worse. My uncle was a radical priest who spent time in Uganda in the late 1950's early 1960's. He was re-assigned to an industrial school in Ireland in the mid-60's (they church did that when you got a bit too radical). I visited him with my parents on several occasions and each time withnessed constant violence being dished out to 'troublesome' children aged from 10 years old upwards. I remember visiting on one occasion around Christmas. We arrived at about 10 in the morning on a day with a very heavy snow-fall. There was a boy of about 12 standing in his underware in the courtyard shivering. I overheard later than he had been out there all night. My uncle went into the school as a decent bloke and came out a raving alcoholic.

Troubled children, many from broken homes, many others suffering from learning disabilities or having special needs were dumped by the state into these religious run institutions where these b*stards subjected them to a regime of violence and rape for years on end. It took another 20 years before the full extent of the crimes came to light.

This was all about power - the power to control, the power to manipulate, the power to abuse. The priests knew that they were untouchable, no one would ever question what was going on, no one would ever believe the kids, the kids never spoke out because of the 'fear of god' that had been literally hammered into them from the first day they went into school - and if anyone did they would be ridiculed by all and sundry 'how dare you speak about the priest like that' - and you would probably get shipped off to an industrial school because you parents weren't bringing you up properly - having you kids talk about priests like that, the parents must be doing something wrong.

I was lucky - I got the odd hammering at school, nothing on the scale of the repeated hidings some kids got. Looking back on it I think that there may have been a couple of kids who got worse. There was always innuendo about one particular brother, but no one would ever dare say anything out loud.

Throughout my entire life I have know religious people - all were either alcoholics or had an affinity for violence (or worse) - and the one thread running through all of this was power.