White supremacist rally ends with five arrests and two assaults, police say

[Agnapostate]

I don't know if this is the appropriate forum for this, and I apologize if this is a double/duplicate post, as well as for only providing a blog source at this point.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/04/white-supremacist-rally-ends-with-five-arrests-and-two-assaults-police-say.html


A white supremacist rally on the lawn of Los Angeles City Hall ended with a handful of arrests Saturday afternoon as counter-protesters showered police and white supremacists with rocks, bottles and other debris.

[Update, 4:50 p.m.: All five people arrested were counter-protesters, police say.]

A rally by 40 members of a group calling itself the National Socialist Movement drew hundreds of counter-protesters from throughout the region. In the hours leading up to the rally, where members called for the removal of all nonwhites from America's southwest, counter-protesters scuffled with people perceived to be sympathizing with the white supremacists' message.

One man, who sported Nazi tattoos, was severely beaten near City Hall while another man, who carried a confusing sign about religion with a scribbled swastika, was pummeled by a mob of people on Spring Street between 1st and 2nd.

The Los Angeles Police Department went on tactical alert during the event and took responsibility for escorting the white supremacists to and from the demonstration site. Earlier in the week the group had obtained a permit for the demonstration.

[Continued...]

They had perhaps 30 to 40 NSM members there (down from a projected 150) and several hundred (I've heard five) counter-protesters. The Nazis had to be protected by swarms of police, and I was with a huge stampede of people that ran to the parking lot where they were to hurl bottles and rocks at them and their cars (I didn't do that). All in all, it was made clear to them that they were unwelcome. :thumbup1:

[h0m0revolutionary]

(I didn't do that)

Why not? :P

[Agnapostate]

Why not? :P

Well, bleeeeep but the LAPD issued a dispersal order for those of us situated on the hill above the parking lot and forced everyone to move back about 100 meters...I saw them arresting a guy who tried to push through I probably could have hit a few of the NSM before the police moved in, though. :D

[Jimmie Higgins]

The fucking nerve to rally in LA! It shows that the nazis have been emboldened by the anti-immigrant sentiment and tea-party protests. What happened was what should have happened - the racists got chased out and will think twice about trying to intimidate workers in LA with their calls for deportation. Good job LA comrades.

[Martin Blank]

Moved from Opposing Ideologies to Anti-Fascism

[Red Commissar]

I saw this funny picture

http://cache.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/AP_Photo/2010/04/17/1271559748_1887/539w.jpg

http://www.cubeupload.com/files/262800ss20100417231142.png

Also,

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2010-04/53365091.jpg

Is it just me or does that cop to the right of the speaker look down?


The fucking nerve to rally in LA! It shows that the nazis have been emboldened by the anti-immigrant sentiment and tea-party protests. What happened was what should have happened - the racists got chased out and will think twice about trying to intimidate workers in LA with their calls for deportation. Good job LA comrades.

I think they were doing what many white-supremacists try to do when they hold these rallies- they want to invite violence and try to incite a riot. Failing that they sometimes try to open up lawsuits.

But at any rate, the pricks got what they deserved. Kudos to those who countered the shitbags.

[Agnapostate]

Yeah, that guy was the first person spoken of in the article, the one that they speculated was homeless. Whatever he was, he clearly has Nazi tattoos, and was allegedly mocking the protesters. Regardless of whether what happened to him was justifiable, he was pretty stupid to walk where he did. He was bloodied up, and was saved by an undercover cop (who I heard was black, amusingly enough). They pulled him right by me because I was standing next to the perimeter, and I leaned in and shouted into his face, "Go back to Europe, son!" :lol:

[Stand Your Ground]

The voice of the people is heard once again. Good Night White Pride.

[bcbm]

Well . . .

i think it is a bad idea to post this sort of information on the internet.

[Agnapostate]

No law against beeeeep beeep beeeeeep

[InuyashaKnight]

Throw'em all in jail.

[Agnapostate]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlHXdFKoyv4

Feel bad for that guy who got mobbed at :40...:(

[Stand Your Ground]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlHXdFKoyv4

Feel bad for that guy who got mobbed at :40...:(
Yeah what the fuck was that all about? Made us look bad too. Un-fucking-necessary.

[Agnapostate]

Yeah what the fuck was that all about? Made us look bad too. Un-fucking-necessary.

As said in the video, he apparently wasn't even a neo-Nazi. But the mob aggression just got overwhelming, apparently. It escalated when that guy in the blue jeans hit him in the face with the sign, which prompted some other people to hit him while he was on the ground.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2ut534j.jpg

[Kassad]

...Is everyone at the rally wearing PSL stickers?

I heard about this from some comrades in Los Angeles. Though this was a massive success in driving back fascist forces, it's really disheartening to see innocent people dragged in and assaulted because of a mob rampage. Everyone has to make sure to always mantain focus in such a critical situation.

[Rusty Shackleford]

i think the guy who got attacked by everyone just made the mistake of making a sign that was really ambiguous at first glance. situations like this call for clarity so you know who you are with and against. shit like this happens when you arent clear.

[AK]

Yeah what the fuck was that all about? Made us look bad too. Un-fucking-necessary.

i think the guy who got attacked by everyone just made the mistake of making a sign that was really ambiguous at first glance. situations like this call for clarity so you know who you are with and against. shit like this happens when you arent clear.
What the fuck was with Christianity = Paganism = Heathens = Nazis?

[Sasha]

i think the guy who got attacked by everyone just made the mistake of making a sign that was really ambiguous at first glance. situations like this call for clarity so you know who you are with and against. shit like this happens when you arent clear.


yeah, although protest like this also have an habit of atracting the oddballs and then shit like this can happen unfortantly.
we once had an antifa demo and some ptss vet in uniform started shouting racial abuse to an bunch of already hyped imigrant kids. And another time some local drunk thought it was funny to start seig heilling. And yeah, then you get kicked allover the tarmac...

[Rusty Shackleford]

What the fuck was with Christianity = Paganism = Heathens = Nazis?
i think the dude was trying to say christians are nazis? then he wanted the christian pagan heathen nazis to burn in hell? i have no clue

[Iduno]

I saw this, its a shame that some innocents got beaten up. But on the bright side, the Natso's were driven back.

[hardlinecommunist]

That Cop in the photo with the nazi leader really does look down funny

[AK]

I saw this, its a shame that some innocents got beaten up. But on the bright side, the Natso's were driven back.
On a sadder note, the Nazis are still breathing without the help of a ventilator machine. :(

[A Proletarian Manifesto]

"If you hear someone say Jesus was our lord and saviour, slap that motherfucker in the face."

[Stand Your Ground]

i think the guy who got attacked by everyone just made the mistake of making a sign that was really ambiguous at first glance. situations like this call for clarity so you know who you are with and against. shit like this happens when you arent clear.
I feel wicked bad for him. He was there to send a good message and got attacked by the people who are supposed to be supporting him. It would be nice to see the people who mistakenly attacked him apologize.

[Communist]

.
Heard some great reports from LA comrades about this. John Parker wrote this article (http://www.workers.org/2010/us/nazis_0429/) in Workers World, if you're interested.

A most inspiring part of all of this is contained in the closing paragraph of the linked article, which says in part:


Anti-Racist Action, Black Riders, and IWW. Other participating organizations included the Southern California Immigration Coalition, BAYAN-USA, Bail Out the People Movement, International Action Center, FIST, Workers World Party, All African Peoples Revolutionary Party, Freedom Socialist Party, Bus Riders Union, ANSWER and CISPES.Solidarity. :thumbup1:

Great photos in this thread by the way.

.

[StalinFanboy]

"If you hear someone say Jesus was our lord and saviour, slap that motherfucker in the face."
That's pretty punk.

[A Proletarian Manifesto]

That's pretty punk.
Haha, watch the video. That dude ranting clearly said that and I thought it was funny.

[Andropov]

i think it is a bad idea to post this sort of information on the internet.
Absolutely, very bad idea.
His post should be deleted for his own sake, everything on here is documented and filed by respective agencys.

[Sasha]

Absolutely, very bad idea.
His post should be deleted for his own sake, everything on here is documented and filed by respective agencys.


posts edited

[Agnapostate]

I did laugh at this section, incidentally.


At the end of the rally, after 2:30 p.m., police escorted the white supremacists to the criminal courts building parking lot to get in their vehicles. However, one car failed to start. A crowd of counter-demonstrators ran to the lot and began hurling rocks and bottles into the parking lot's southwest corner, hitting cars and shattering glass. As some of the white supremacists held shields emblazoned with swastikas over their heads to protect them from the projectiles, others attempted to jump-start the car.

:lol:

[Crux]

Hahahaha..Hollywood-nazis.

[InuyashaKnight]

Arrest there asses!

[Pia Fidelis]

Nothing cries for racial equality and the unification of the world's labourers like seeing a bunch of Black Panther scum.

Really guys? These degenerates are no better than the Nazis being protested.

[Agnapostate]

Nothing cries for racial equality and the unification of the world's labourers like seeing a bunch of Black Panther scum.

Really guys? These degenerates are no better than the Nazis being protested.

That's much like the comparisons one hears on Stormfront, except that the white supremacists are depicted in a positive light.

[Pia Fidelis]

That's much like the comparisons one hears on Stormfront, except that the white supremacists are depicted in a positive light.

Wow. Nice knee-jerk reaction there.

I am interested to hear how you justify not only condoning a hate group like the Black Panthers, but castigating someone who speaks against them as being comparable to a poster on stormfront.

[The Gallant Gallstone]

Wow. Nice knee-jerk reaction there.

I am interested to hear how you justify not only condoning a hate group like the Black Panthers, but castigating someone who speaks against them as being comparable to a poster on stormfront.

Are you talking about the old school Black Panthers or some more-recent offshoot?

Either way, I think you need to prove that the Black Panthers are a hate group.

[Emile Armand]

Are you talking about the old school Black Panthers or some more-recent offshoot?

Either way, I think you need to prove that the Black Panthers are a hate group.
I agree. The Black Panthers have been given a bad name by some newer organization who took the same name and used it for Black Supremacist type B.S however, the original Black Panther party was a far-left Maoist group.

[Pia Fidelis]

Are you talking about the old school Black Panthers or some more-recent offshoot?

Either way, I think you need to prove that the Black Panthers are a hate group.

The off-shoot, obviously. As I hardly think the geezers from the original group would have anything to do with a "rally" of the sort. The new one is just a bunch of ex-N.O.I. fools (and don't try to defend those guys either).

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map#s=CA

In any case: black nationalism is just as damaging to the international workers movement as white nationalism is. Yes, white nationalism is more outward and taken note of, but black nationalism bases itself in the same lowly, reactionary system of values.

In all honesty, I am not here to change minds on the internet. If you want to go along believing that the Black Panthers are part of the movement, go for it.:thumbup1:

[Aesop]

The off-shoot, obviously. As I hardly think the geezers from the original group would have anything to do with a "rally" of the sort. The new one is just a bunch of ex-N.O.I. fools (and don't try to defend those guys either).

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map#s=CA

In any case: black nationalism is just as damaging to the international workers movement as white nationalism is. Yes, white nationalism is more outward and taken note of, but black nationalism bases itself in the same lowly, reactionary system of values.

In all honesty, I am not here to change minds on the internet. If you want to go along believing that the Black Panthers are part of the movement, go for it.:thumbup1:

Btw, aren’t you that person who said Islam is just as bad as National Socialism?

No one on this forum is advocating for any kind of racial nationalism/or separation, and yes groups that advocate stupid and irrational demands like banning marriages between different ethnicities no matter what skin-colour they are should be challenged.

However, if you think that the black panthers are the just as bad as some white-nationalist bootboys, then it looks like I am going to have to print you a reading list.

By parallel do you think radical feminists are just as bad as some ultra chauvinist/anti-feminist groups?

[Pia Fidelis]

Btw, aren’t you that person who said Islam is just as bad as National Socialism?

Yes, that is me. I admit, I was incorrect in saying such. Islam is not as bad as National Socialism - it is worse. It is a more rigid and staunch form of tyrannical oppression of the proletariat, and it has a wider acceptance not only world wide, but also in the western world. More often will westerners be willing to convert (or, properly put revert) to Islam, but it is much more socially acceptable within the modern framework to do so, than to be an ardent National Socialist. Do not misunderstand me, I am not falling to reactionary tenets of Islamaphobia; for I hold the very same to be true in regards to all religions. Christianity and Judaism have fallen wayward in the Western world, and most people as passive agnostics rather than inherent bearers of the aformentioned traditions. Islam, on the other hand, is that which is truly the new religious force, and by no coincidence it is that which demands the most stern submission.

I am not sure why there is such sympathy toward Islam on this message board. It is like any other religion: a poison.


No one on this forum is advocating for any kind of racial nationalism/or separation, and yes groups that advocate stupid and irrational demands like banning marriages between different ethnicities no matter what skin-colour they are should be challenged.

No one on this forum openly condones racial separatism or nationalism, yes. But, many on this forum allow themselves to fall under the sway that such could even exist in the first place. By giving ANY (even a word) of creed or acknowledgment to these enemies, you are affirming that there are a) differences between races, and b) that such factors can be taken into account when constructing a social order. The progressive unity of the world's workers is based on destroying the instated barriers like this, not passively tolerating them.


however, if you think that the black panthers are the just as bad as some white-nationalist bootboys, then it looks like I am going to have to print you a reading list.

By parallel do you think radical feminists are just as bad as some ultra chauvinist/anti-feminist groups?

We have to make a particular distinction right now. The active and passive manifestations of the very same racial tenets inherent in both mentioned groups. White nationalists are more prone to violence, and are also a more open target of criticism and condemnation. Black nationalists possess the same (or very similar) definition and understanding of the social construct of race; they merely harbour them in a more passive manner. At the root of both ideologies is the very same reliance on something as invented and non-existent as race. No matter what other ideas are interwoven in an ideology, if the basis is race, it is opposing our movement. It should not be the "black" panthers, nor should it be the "white" panthers. How about just the Proletariat?

As for the case of radical feminists and misogynists, they both strive to create social distinctions between male and female, completely disregarding that we are, in fact, all comrades.

[The Gallant Gallstone]

I am not sure why there is such sympathy toward Islam on this message board. It is like any other religion: a poison.

I see it as a matter of focus. There's not enough of us to effectively battle all of our enemies simultaneously, so we have to focus on the enemy that is most pernicious.

I agree with you on the dangers of fervent Islam. I do see it as an opposing worldview that assaults our conception of class-consciousness. But I don't believe that it is our greatest threat at this time. Indeed, by working with Muslims on ad hoc issues that we agree upon, I think we can exert a competing influence on some of them and thus bolster our own numbers.

In the United States, I see the greatest obstacle to revolution being the stability of the two-party political system. Islam is a potent force in the world and those who are organizing in areas where that faith predominates may be prudent to take a different approach, but here, I say we should work with the Muslim minority wherever possible.

[Crux]

Yes, that is me. I admit, I was incorrect in saying such. Islam is not as bad as National Socialism - it is worse. It is a more rigid and staunch form of tyrannical oppression of the proletariat, and it has a wider acceptance not only world wide, but also in the western world. More often will westerners be willing to convert (or, properly put revert) to Islam, but it is much more socially acceptable within the modern framework to do so, than to be an ardent National Socialist. Do not misunderstand me, I am not falling to reactionary tenets of Islamaphobia; for I hold the very same to be true in regards to all religions. Christianity and Judaism have fallen wayward in the Western world, and most people as passive agnostics rather than inherent bearers of the aformentioned traditions. Islam, on the other hand, is that which is truly the new religious force, and by no coincidence it is that which demands the most stern submission.

I am not sure why there is such sympathy toward Islam on this message board. It is like any other religion: a poison.



No one on this forum openly condones racial separatism or nationalism, yes. But, many on this forum allow themselves to fall under the sway that such could even exist in the first place. By giving ANY (even a word) of creed or acknowledgment to these enemies, you are affirming that there are a) differences between races, and b) that such factors can be taken into account when constructing a social order. The progressive unity of the world's workers is based on destroying the instated barriers like this, not passively tolerating them.



We have to make a particular distinction right now. The active and passive manifestations of the very same racial tenets inherent in both mentioned groups. White nationalists are more prone to violence, and are also a more open target of criticism and condemnation. Black nationalists possess the same (or very similar) definition and understanding of the social construct of race; they merely harbour them in a more passive manner. At the root of both ideologies is the very same reliance on something as invented and non-existent as race. No matter what other ideas are interwoven in an ideology, if the basis is race, it is opposing our movement. It should not be the "black" panthers, nor should it be the "white" panthers. How about just the Proletariat?

As for the case of radical feminists and misogynists, they both strive to create social distinctions between male and female, completely disregarding that we are, in fact, all comrades.
If you cannot tell the difference between the oppressor and the oppressed than you, my friend, are a liberal.

[Pia Fidelis]

I see it as a matter of focus. There's not enough of us to effectively battle all of our enemies simultaneously, so we have to focus on the enemy that is most pernicious.

I agree with you on the dangers of fervent Islam. I do see it as an opposing worldview that assaults our conception of class-consciousness. But I don't believe that it is our greatest threat at this time. Indeed, by working with Muslims on ad hoc issues that we agree upon, I think we can exert a competing influence on some of them and thus bolster our own numbers.

It is difficult to decipher who has the potential of being more malignant to our movement. Islam opposes capitalism and forms of racial discrimination, yes, but what it proposes as an alternative is just as bad as that which we (both leftists and muslims) would stand opposed to in the first place. The archaic tyranny of Islam would merely replace the master of the labour/wage slavery of the capitalists with a submission to superstitious power. Instead of one being a disposable cog to the idea of wealth expansion, one would be a servant of invented authority which is determined by the thoughts and actions of a "esoteric" elite. Even if we did band, in certain circumstances, with the Muslims, they would be just as abrasive to us as they would our enemies: Islam is quite contrary to many of the foundational points of our movement. Correspondingly, any battles we fight alongside the Muslims, though damaging to our enemies, will also increase their strength as it will ours.

The enemy of our enemies is not our friend.


In the United States, I see the greatest obstacle to revolution being the stability of the two-party political system. Islam is a potent force in the world and those who are organizing in areas where that faith predominates may be prudent to take a different approach, but here, I say we should work with the Muslim minority wherever possible.

I am not located in the US, so I cannot comment first hand on the situation there. The two party system is poster child of the failures of socio-capital democracy. Islam opposes this system, but proports a no-party system, with all authority coming from that which exists not in the real plain of being. Again, my point stands: we cannot befriend our enemies on grounds of mutual hatred.


If you cannot tell the difference between the oppressor and the oppressed than you, my friend, are a liberal.

Are you serious? What a total cop-out. Let me add "liberal" to the (ever increasing) list of silly accusations of my political understandings and preferences.

Don't you see that by continuing to make the relative distinctions of "oppressor" and "oppressed" within the proletariat itself, you are assisting in maintaining that very dichotomy? This duality is, in itself, a social creation. We strive to destroy these sort of unnecessary, destructive, distinctions, not proport them by taking a single side. Men and women, just like blacks and whites (and all races accordingly) are EQUAL. Dwelling on this sort of thing does nothing but ingrain in our minds that these discriminating thoughts are not only correct, but that they are part of a greater integral understanding of humanity.

We are all equally read on the history of discrimination of ALL the groups in question. No one here is willingly expressing a willing decision to maintain these, nor is anyone trying to postulate that these dichotomies are in any light correct. Is not the very heart of our movement one of unity? It is not just the speculative endpoint, but the very foundation!

A "liberal" in this circumstance would be furthering this distinctions, maintaining the proper understanding relative to the capitalist hierarchy.

[Jimmie Higgins]

By giving ANY (even a word) of creed or acknowledgment to these enemies, you are affirming that there are a) differences between races, and b) that such factors can be taken into account when constructing a social order. The progressive unity of the world's workers is based on destroying the instated barriers like this, not passively tolerating them.There are no inherent differences between races which are a social construct anyway, but there is quite a big difference between how races are treated in various capitalist societies.

Black nationalism, and other nationalist ideas among oppressed people is a direct response to their oppression. Aside from some on the fringes of this kind of nationalism, the vast majority of nationalisms of oppressed groups comes out of their oppression in society and desire to be free from it.

As radicals, we know this is a dead-end when it comes to fighting oppression, but so are most reforms and all of liberal and conservative ideas.

White nationalism in the US or in South Africa or wherever comes out of the desire for people to keep another group subordinate. Supremacist type nationalism, or right-nationalism does not come out of people's desire for liberation, it comes from a desire to maintain an oppressive status-quo so it is not mearly a dead-end in fighting for liberation, it is opposed to any liberation and for oppression!

So, in my opinion there is a qualitative difference between nationalism of the oppressed and the nationalism of the oppressors.

Like all people who legitimately want liberation, we should try and take our arguments to them and win them to an internationalist and working class perspective. Saying that nationalism is bad not matter what is drawing a false line in the sand. it was Malcolm X's black nationalism that directly led to groups like the Black Panthers who developed a radical perspective. And they were radicals who worked with non-black radicals that they believed were really down for black liberation and revolution.


We have to make a particular distinction right now. The active and passive manifestations of the very same racial tenets inherent in both mentioned groups. White nationalists are more prone to violence, and are also a more open target of criticism and condemnation. Black nationalists possess the same (or very similar) definition and understanding of the social construct of race; they merely harbour them in a more passive manner. Yes, race is not a objective category, it's a subjective category created by (imo the rulers of) society. But this tells us very little about the way this constructed distinction works in society. If the nationalism of the oppressed and the nationalism of the oppressor are only different in degrees, then:

Black nationalists decided to create black neighborhoods? Black people wanted to be put into separate schools?

LGBT people thought - hey we can go to any bar in the USA to meet people like us, but I just don't want to mingle with all those straight people, so I will go to an all gay bar run by the mob in the worst part of town?

Of course that is bullshit, but then flip it: white nationalists are the ones who opposed integration, they are the ones who limited education and jobs for blacks, they are the ones today that support racial profiling. So they are in fact existing to CREATE and REINFORCE the racial differences that you correctly point out are not real in a biological sense.

Black nationalism, arab nationalism, and so are are a response to the construction of racial inequality, not the primary creators of it. Would nationalism among Palestinians exist if there was true equality? Would there be gay pride parades if LGBT people always felt safe being open in our society?

Now compare that the the nationalism of Italy or Germany in the 1900s - they claim that their "nation" was oppressed, but really their desires for nationalism did not come out of the need to end inequalities, it came from the desire of the existing rulers to create and even stronger organization for their rule (a strong central state) with a united language and culture.


At the root of both ideologies is the very same reliance on something as invented and non-existent as race. No matter what other ideas are interwoven in an ideology, if the basis is race, it is opposing our movement. It should not be the "black" panthers, nor should it be the "white" panthers. How about just the Proletariat?

As for the case of radical feminists and misogynists, they both strive to create social distinctions between male and female, completely disregarding that we are, in fact, all comrades.There were white panthers allied and inspired by the Black Panthers, also Asian Panthers and Brown Beretts. The BPP thought of black people as the vanguard of the entire working class, so this argument is a straw man. This kind of nationalism comes out of a highly segregated society, it does not cause racial differences any more than goose-bumps make you get a chill.

The way that the ruling class rules is partially through creating inequalities among the lower classes including within the working class. In the US, racism has always been the Achilles heel of the working class and our ability to make gains has always rested on weather or not we could combat these inequalities.

We definitely need a united working class movement and writing off all "nationalism" as equally bad as white supremacist nationalism does not aid in the cause of creating trust among various oppressed groups in the working class.

[Agnapostate]

Wow. Nice knee-jerk reaction there.

I am interested to hear how you justify not only condoning a hate group like the Black Panthers, but castigating someone who speaks against them as being comparable to a poster on stormfront.

Your post was an assertion, not an argument. I’m not sure why you’d hypocritically demand some higher order of response to it.


In any case: black nationalism is just as damaging to the international workers movement as white nationalism is. Yes, white nationalism is more outward and taken note of, but black nationalism bases itself in the same lowly, reactionary system of values.

Black nationalism would be as damaging as white nationalism if it were based in the same institutional structures of racial supremacy. It never has been, except perhaps in Zimbabwe, South Africa, and some other African countries where white minorities are mistreated, but even that is a reaction to colonial white nationalism. On the contrary, it’s typically been based in liberationist ideologies that evolved in opposition to white supremacy. White nationalism is based on supremacist doctrines that seek to consolidate racial hierarchy that is slipping away from whites.


I am not sure why there is such sympathy toward Islam on this message board. It is like any other religion: a poison.

There is not “sympathy toward Islam” as you describe it; there are no supporters of the theocratic structures of Islamic societies on the forum, to my knowledge. There is simply (1) dispute of the claim that “Islamic terrorism” is based solely or even primarily on religious doctrines, as well as (2) dispute of the claim that Islam is a uniquely oppressive religion in terms of its tenets, as opposed to simply being in a position where Islamic clerics can impose authoritarian restrictions on the public.

This is due to the fact that those that insist that Muslims are simply angered by the immorality of “infidels” ignore and conceal legitimate political opposition (even if the actual terrorism is morally wrong) to the Israeli government’s treatment of Palestinian communities in the Occupied Territories, which we consider objectionable, and further demonize Muslims through claims that Islam is outstandingly evil, when it is only its greater influence over the population that is problematic. Its theological tenets and principles are not markedly different from those of Judaism and Christianity; rather, its influence over social organization and political management in the countries where it finds the most adherents is greater. Islamic countries are not characterized by a separation of church and state as modern Christian countries are, with religious and political authority often being intertwined, if not one and the same.

There is no reason to believe that Christianity would and could not be similarly authoritarian if it were in place of Islam, and many reasons to believe otherwise, considering the brutal historical record of theocratic Christian governance, which is marked by the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, St. Bartholomew’s Massacre, and even the harassment and oppression against dissenting sects that led the Pilgrims to establish a colony at Plymouth to begin with.

Are you that former anarchist that converted to some sort of neo-conservatism?