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tradeunionsupporter
15th April 2010, 19:35
If White Pride and White Racial Identity is wrong because the idea of a White Race came about during Slavery and European Imperialism I am aware of the fact that Roman and Greek European Imperialism and Enslaved Non White races happened before Arab Muslim/Islamic Imperialism but what about Asian Imperialism and Asian Slavery of other races and Arab Imperialism and Slavery of Black Africans and other races ?

What's so wrong about being proud of being white?
Two things are wrong with "white pride" or "white power:"


In particular, the definition of "white" first started to come about based on racial slavery and on European invasions and conquests of other continents and people. It has been reinforced in the U.S. and Canada by stripping "white" people of family histories, cultural links to specific nations and ethnic groups, in favor of identifying with a social group based on privilege. White privileges, like any privileges, are based on "good behavior," and can be taken away at any time. Wouldn't you rather have human rights than white privilege?

http://arastore.com/?page=faq


On White Pride and Other Delusions:


Reflections on the Rage of the Uninformed



By Tim Wise


May 23, 2007





"The price the white American paid for his ticket was to become white...This incredibly limited, not to say dimwitted ambition has choked many a human being to death here: and this, I contend, is because the white American has never accepted the real reasons for his journey. I know very well that my ancestors had no desire to come to this place: but neither did the ancestors of the people who became white and who require of my captivity a song. They require of me a song less to celebrate my captivity than to justify their own."
James Baldwin, "The Price of the Ticket," 1985






White Bonding as a Dangerous Distraction
But especially ironic is that by seeking to bond on the basis of whiteness, those pushing the concept end up ignoring the way in which white identity has actually harmed persons of European descent, by causing most of us to ignore our real interests, all for the sake of phony racial bonding. To understand why this is so, it might help to have some historical perspective on how the notion of whiteness came into being in the first place, and for what purpose.
Contrary to popular belief, the white race is a quite modern creation, which only emerged as a term and concept to describe Europeans in the late 1600s and after, specifically in the colonies of what would become the United States. Prior to that time, "whites" had been a collection of Europeans with little in common, and often long histories of conflict, bloodshed and conquest of one another's lands and peoples. The English, for example, did not consider themselves to be of the same group as the Irish, Germans, Italians, or French. While most Europeans by that time may have thought of themselves as Christians, there is no evidence that they conceived of themselves as a race of people, with a common heritage or destiny.
But the notion of the white race found traction in the North American colonies, not because it described a clear scientific concept, or some true historical bond between persons of European descent, but rather, because the elites of the colonies (who were small in number but controlled the vast majority of colonial wealth) needed a way to secure their power. At the time, the wealthy landowners feared rebellions, in which poor European peasants might join with African slaves to overthrow aristocratic governance; after all, these poor Europeans were barely above the level of slaves themselves, especially if they worked as indentured servants (9).
In 1676, for example, Bacon's Rebellion prompted a new round of colonial laws to extend rights and privileges to despised poor Europeans, so as to divide them from those slaves with whom they had much in common, economically speaking. By allowing the lowest of Europeans to be placed legally above all Africans, and by encouraging (or even requiring) them to serve on slave patrols, the elite gave poor "whites" a stake in the system that had harmed them. Giving poor Europeans the right to own land, ending indentured servitude in the early 1700s, and in some cases allowing them to vote, were all measures implemented so as to convince lower-caste Europeans that their interests were closer to those of the rich than to those of blacks. It was within this context that the term "white" to describe Europeans en masse was born, as an umbrella term to capture the new pan-Euro unity needed to defend the system of African slavery and Indian genocide going on in the Americas (10). And the trick worked marvelously, dampening down the push for rebellion by poor whites on the basis of class interest, and encouraging them to cast their lot with the elite, if only in aspirational terms.
This divide-and-conquer tactic would be extended and refined in future generations as well. Indeed, the very first law passed by the newly established Congress of the United States was the Naturalization Act of 1790, which extended citizenship to all "free white persons," and only free white persons, including newly arrived immigrants, so long as the latter would make their homes in the U.S. for a year. Despite longstanding animosities between persons of European descent, all blood feuds were put aside for the purpose of extending pan-Euro or white hegemony over the United States (11).
During the Civil War, the process of using "whiteness" to further divide working people from one another continued. So, for example, Southern elites made it quite clear that their reason for secession from the Union was the desire to maintain and extend the institution of slavery and white supremacy, which institutions they felt were threatened by the rise of Lincoln and the Republican Party. One might think that seceding and going to war to defend slavery would hardly meet with the approval of poor white folks, who didn't own slaves. After all, if slaves can be made to work for free, any working class white person who must charge for their labor will be undercut by slave labor, and find it harder to make ends meet. Yet by convincing poor whites that their interests were racial, rather than economic, and that whites in the South had to band together to defend "their way of life," the elites in the South conned these same lower-caste Europeans into joining a destructive war effort that cost hundreds of thousands of lives (12): their lives, in fact.
Then during the growth of the labor union movement, white union workers barred blacks from apprenticeship programs and unions because of racism, encouraged in this by owners and bosses who would use workers of color to break white labor strikes for better wages and working conditions. By bringing in blacks and others of color to break strikes, bosses counted on white workers turning on those replacing them, rather than turning on the bosses themselves. And indeed, this is what happened time and again, further elevating whiteness above class interest in the minds of European Americans (13). The effectiveness of racist propaganda to unite whites around race, even if it meant overlooking economic interests was stunning. Nowhere was this phenomena better summed up than in the words of one white Texas fireman, who responded to the suggestion that the ranks of railroaders should be opened up to blacks by saying, "We would rather be absolute slaves of capital than to take the Negro into our lodges as an equal and brother (14)."

http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/whitepride.html (http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/whitepride.html)


Transcript of Radio Debate between Jared Taylor and Tim Wise



The Infidel Guy Show May 11, 2005

TIM: Here's the problem. And, Jared, when he and I debated at Vanderbilt about a year and a half ago made this argument about loving your own family more than other families and he proceeded to say then though he didn't it now, I'm sure he still believes it, that in a sense whites are each other's extended family of sorts, or that one's race is one's extended family. I would just say this is all the proof you need of the fallacy of the white nationalist position for four reasons. Number one, since when have whites been one big family? Again, I would argue historically, that the concept of whiteness was artificially created for the purpose of collectively benefiting Europeans, who had previously hated one another, putting us all one the same team so as to subordinate others. So it's a false analogy. Secondly, this notion of family is fascinating because family is also socially constructed. It's not a matter of blood. That's what adoption proves, first of all. It's what extended family networks prove. It's what marriage proves. After all, we don't marry people, at least I don't, who are in my own bloodline. They're not members of our family until we wed them, then they become family. I love my wife, for example, more than anyone on earth, but we're not blood relatives. My children, who are blood relatives, I love them I suppose equally with my wife, but not more because they are blood relatives. So even the concept of family on the micro level is a socially constructed thing. I've never met an adoptive parent for example who loved their adopted children less than their biological children, because they have created them as family. They have brought them into the family. Third, it's a false analogy because even if I prefer my family, and I do frankly to anyone else's, that doesn't mean that I only want to be around my family members, which is what white nationalism ultimately proposes. Finally, I would ask Jared why in the world I as a white person should be quicker to consider the Croatian or other central European immigrant maybe has come to the US in the last couple of years, why should I consider them more family to me than black folks here in the South where I live and have always lived, who I have shared a common nation and a culture with, or my people have for hundreds of years? It just doesn't make sense.

http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/taylordebate.html (http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/taylordebate.html)

cska
15th April 2010, 19:38
Edit: Oh I see your question is something you are posting the answer to. You don't believe in white pride.

tradeunionsupporter
15th April 2010, 19:42
I don't support White Pride for many reasons one reason is because White Pride is based on White Privilege but I do support Black Pride and American Indian/Native American Pride and Jewish Pride I support Pride for the Non White Races. What is the Socialist opinion on White Pride also what is your opinion of Anti Racist Action and Tim Wise ?

Bud Struggle
15th April 2010, 21:25
but I do support Black Pride and American Indian/Native American Pride and Jewish Pride I support Pride for the Non White Races.

I don't see it. Any sort of "groupism" pride leads to eliteism. I don't see equality coming to the world until we ALL realize we are all brothers and sisters and all the same.

Crusade
15th April 2010, 21:45
Racial "pride" doesn't make sense, being born a certain way is no reason to be "proud", you didn't do anything. Even though many groups like blacks, women, gays etc profess "pride" in their status, in this case it's typically denouncing shame that they're supposed to have. Racial "unity" is acceptable and encouraged by me in cases of racial oppression, especially if the oppressor is racially unified(whether intentionally or systematically). The reason why "white pride" is looked at critically, is just due to the typical nature of "white pride" groups. Other racial pride groups almost always prop as some psychological defense against white pride. Basically(although this isn't always true) "black" or "brown" pride would be like an immigrant assimilating into society and trying to become a member. "White pride" would be an immigrant coming into society and taking over and telling everyone they have to obey him. These are just the usual nature of their respected "movements".

and PS Tim Wise is great. He says shit that black people say a lot, but him being white makes it legitimate.

Lacrimi de Chiciură
16th April 2010, 05:55
and PS Tim Wise is great. He says shit that black people say a lot, but him being white makes it legitimate.

How does his race make what he says legitimate?

SouthernBelle82
16th April 2010, 06:23
I don't see it. Any sort of "groupism" pride leads to eliteism. I don't see equality coming to the world until we ALL realize we are all brothers and sisters and all the same.

I'd have to agree. To me none of that tribalism matters. We're all here together, so why shouldn't we work together to better our lives?

Crusade
16th April 2010, 11:43
How does his race make what he says legitimate?

Because being Black means no one will take you seriously in a discussion of race. I don't quite understand the reasoning, but people tend to assume blacks have a "bias" of some kind in discussions of racism, commonly being the victims of it(allegedly :rolleyes:). It's rare for whites to be considered "bias" in discussions of racism, for commonly being perpetrators of it. It could also be possible that Blacks lack legitimacy in pretty much any discussion, but it's far more apparent in discussions of race. Blacks have consistently complained about the burden of racism generation after generation, and every generation the majority of White Americans have never seen a problem. This holds true even in the "old days" where most people today would admit there was racism.

The way I see it, racism has to age at least 20 years for the American public to acknowledge it's existence. By then it's way too far in the past for anyone to claim responsibility of it.

Jimmie Higgins
16th April 2010, 12:58
I don't support White Pride for many reasons one reason is because White Pride is based on White Privilege but I do support Black Pride and American Indian/Native American Pride and Jewish Pride I support Pride for the Non White Races. What is the Socialist opinion on White Pride also what is your opinion of Anti Racist Action and Tim Wise ?

White pride doesn't exist, it's just a code-word for white supremacy and racism. But I think Tim Wise has it backwards - the main tool of the ruling class isn't "white privilege", their main tool is racism and oppression of some groups in order to rule the entire population.

As Time Wise uses the concept of "white privilege", it isn't so bad, but a lot of academics who use this idea are coming from a post-modern identity politics perspective which I think is useless in terms of understanding and combating oppression. Is it a privilege to not be oppressed because of your sexuality, gender, or race? What about when homosexuals and Latino immigrants are the target and the ruling class tries to promote bigotry among black people against these oppressed groups? Does that mean black hetero males people are privileged because they have rights that undocumented workers and homosexuals are denied? Can you be part privileged and part oppressed or just simply oppressed?

So I try and stay away from these academic conceptions of race because identity and a sense of pride do not create racism alone - what creates oppression has always been material systems such as jim-crow, the slave-era laws that made black servants lower than white servants, redlining, job discrimination, racial profiling and so on.

Also on Tim Wise, what are his ideas for taking on racism? He spoke at a community college in Oakland and said that if people want to take on racial inequality, people have to speak up and call out other people for making racist comments. I mean, of course everyone should do this, but does he have a more fully developed idea for smashing racism?

Dimentio
16th April 2010, 23:08
Ancient slavery was never racist. The Romans did not just enslave Nubians and other African peoples, but basically "barbarians" at all their borders as well as so-called "civilised" peoples like those Greeks who were foolish enough to resist them.

Bud Struggle
16th April 2010, 23:14
Ancient slavery was never racist. The Romans did not just enslave Nubians and other African peoples, but basically "barbarians" at all their borders as well as so-called "civilised" peoples like those Greeks who were foolish enough to resist them.

Yes, Roman slavery was just business, American slavery was much more insidious and evil--actually it based one one of the truly great lies of history.

You guys may not believe in God but slavery alone is proof that Satan exists. Who else would deny humanity to people for cosmetic reasons?

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor
17th April 2010, 00:55
I support the organization of marginalized groups on the basis of mutual interests. While protecting one's power and social advantages is an interest, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the "mobilization of white people" who essentially attach the term "discrimination" to the removal of "structural and systematic inequalities benefiting whites that, if society was just, would have never invented in the first place.

From a materialist angle, you might sympathize with them. Nobody likes losing advantages. But if we are being reasonable, discrimination against white people is a hard case to sell. You "might" be able to do so with respect to affirmative action, but there are all kinds of reasons for and against affirmative action, anyway.

I have some unorthodox left-wing opinions. One of these includes being somewhat opposition to the "black pride" and "gay pride" conceptions. At some level, it feels like they encourage stereotypes. These groups can't be "proud" of being born with an arbitrary trait, so they often attach cultural values to their race or group. I think the gay pride movement is a huge culprit in the perpetuation of stereotypes against gays. Maybe I'm simply not in the loop.

syndicat
17th April 2010, 04:52
I assume that "black pride" means the assertion that Africans are just as intelligent and beautiful as Europeans. so it's not an assertion of superiority over others.

I prefer to use the term "advantage" rather than "privilege" -- are poor working class whites among the "privileged" in the USA? I don't think so. But this "advantage" comes from a long history of practices of discrimination and mistreatment of a disfavored group that is "racialized" -- treated as a separate "race" inferior to Europeans. In reality there is no such thing as race as a biological category.

But the patterns of relative advantage tend to persist. For one thing the dominating classes continue to benefit from divide and conquer. The thing is to be aware of this and work against it. But it requires a social movement, it's not enough to say that individuals should reject the "whiteness game."

Endomorphian
17th April 2010, 06:16
Yes, Roman slavery was just business, American slavery was much more insidious and evil--actually it based one one of the truly great lies of history.

You guys may not believe in God but slavery alone is proof that Satan exists. Who else would deny humanity to people for cosmetic reasons?

European and American slavery.*

Endomorphian
17th April 2010, 06:22
I assume that "black pride" means the assertion that Africans are just as intelligent and beautiful as Europeans. so it's not an assertion of superiority over others.


Most of these issues come down to interpretation. Terms can be manipulated to become symbols, and as Gene Wolfe wrote, "We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges. When soldiers take their oath they are given a coin, an asimi stamped with the profile of the Autarch. Their acceptance of that coin is their acceptance of the special duties and burdens of military life--they are soldiers from that moment, though they may know nothing of the management of arms."

"White Pride" is just a conflicting term. "European Pride" would probably be a better alternative.

syndicat
18th April 2010, 04:42
but why would Euro-Americans need to assert their equality with people of indigenous or African ancestry? in the USA (as in the western hemisphere in general), systemic white supremacy has existed as a pattern, the legacy of rapacious European colonialism, enslavement, theft of indigenous land, and domination. this is why "white pride" tends to have connotations in USA of supporting the continued existence of white supremacy.