alternate symbology needed

[Antifa94]

What disturbs me greatly is when I see the Star of David http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:IMxiWKfs5NsAoM:http://www.fredcrystal.com/jew_star.gif (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.fredcrystal.com/jew_star.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.fredcrystal.com/clipart.htm&usg=__NYREIm39Da53y6QsLr7IbMvrjfk=&h=361&w=320&sz=3&hl=en&start=7&sig2=K9JQ9gcUYhIfzzC2FQhnNA&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=IMxiWKfs5NsAoM:&tbnh=121&tbnw=107&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djewish%2Bstar%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa fe%3Dactive%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26tbo%3D1%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=YrHES8qNNdL7_Aaa9YSSDg)
equated with swastikas. This is a symbol of Jewish identity, not the state of Israel. When comparing Israel's policies to Nazism, I think that people should use the unambiguoushttp://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:gU3D4qHF4IoC4M:http://www.fromthevaultradio.org/home/wp-content/images/FTV017_1982%2520Israel%2520Lebanon%2520War/Israeli%2520Flag.gif. (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.fromthevaultradio.org/home/wp-content/images/FTV017_1982%2520Israel%2520Lebanon%2520War/Israeli%2520Flag.gif&imgrefurl=http://fromthevaultradio.org/home/2006/08/03/ftv-017-the-1982-israel-lebanon-war/&usg=__BzTlSHpR2hyO-EZPORpOw4FRUV4=&h=263&w=361&sz=4&hl=en&start=1&sig2=zFINoehG7B6KlJy3-6eRkg&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=gU3D4qHF4IoC4M:&tbnh=88&tbnw=121&prev=/images%3Fq%3Disraeli%2Bflag%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26s afe%3Dactive%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26tbo%3D1%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=PbLES96RK6CmmwPVu4TSDg)

As a jew, I become extremely concerned seeing the first symbol equated with swastikas. Graffiti artists should take the time to make the flag.

[¿Que?]

You know what concerns me? When people say Argentina is full of Nazis when in fact we have the largest population of jews in all of Latin America. How do like that one?

[cska]

Here the problem is that the Zionists use the star of david to identify themselves. It is an even worse problem than the Nazis using the swastika (a symbol used in Indian religions) to represent their extreme nationalist ideology.

I suggest those who are critical of Zionism refrain from using any symbol for it, and criticize Zionism itself.

[cska]

You know what concerns me? When people say Argentina is full of Nazis when in fact we have the largest population of jews in all of Latin America. How do like that one?

Huh? Stop trolling. Clearly this has nothing to do with Nazis or Zionists or Jews in Argentina...

[¿Que?]

Huh? Stop trolling. Clearly this has nothing to do with Nazis or Zionists or Jews in Argentina...
I'm not trolling. I thought we were airing out our cultural baggage. My mistake.:lol:

[cska]

I'm not trolling. I thought we were airing out our cultural baggage. My mistake.:lol:

Does this blatant trolling deserve an infraction?

[¿Que?]

Does this blatant trolling deserve an infraction?
Probably, but I don't plan on perpetuating it. Like I said, my mistake.

[cska]

Probably, but I don't plan on perpetuating it. Like I said, my mistake.

Oh sorry. I thought your statement about "airing out our cultural baggage" was a cheap snipe at the OP, not a genuine misunderstanding. :laugh: Well, no harm done. :thumbup1:

[Morgenstern]

Symbols are merely human constructed ways to get across a message. Grow up. When we blast a tendency that we don't like (such as Trots blasting Stalinists) we don't cry that our symbol (a hammer and sickle) is the same as theirs. There are far better things to talk about than stars. :rolleyes:

[Mendax]

Graffiti artists should take the time to make the flag.

I'm not sure how many graffiti artists are going to care :unsure:

[Dean]

I'm not sure how many graffiti artists are going to care :unsure:
It only takes 6 more lines. I think it is critical to be sensitive of things like religious identity, since they have such a wide and varying manifestation. I would strongly steer away from using the Star of David in anti-Israeli propaganda, for precisely the same reason I would not use terms like "house nigger" for Obama or graphically depict the prophet Muhammed. There is no reason to offend people who otherwise have no problem with us or what we're saying.

[Antifa94]

Grow up. When we blast a tendency that we don't like (such as Trots blasting Stalinists) we don't cry that our symbol (a hammer and sickle) is the same as theirs. There are far better things to talk about than stars.

Excuse me? this is a religious and ethnic identity, not some petty ideological dispute.
It is extremely important not to associate the Jewish identity with Zionism.

[9]

It is extremely important not to associate the Jewish identity with Zionism.

Uh, it's a little late for that, don't you think?
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with the Zionists.

[Antifa94]

..
The post is about symbols used in attacking zionists through graffiti.
I am informing my fellow comrades that the star of david is not the same as the flag of Israel. so as to not insult pedantic Jews, or most jews that associate the star with judaism and not Israel, I'm asking them not to use it.

[Dean]

Uh, it's a little late for that, don't you think?
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with the Zionists.

You're right that they are the primary cause of the conflation, since it is their deliberate usage of Jewish identity in the furtherance of ethnic cleansing etc. across Palestine. But I think it is important as leftists that we are careful not to associate Judaism with these crimes the way that Israel does; in fact, I think it really plays into their hands to associate the two.

A large amount of political dissemination is done via symbolism, and to willingly compare the Star of David to a Swastika without referencing Israel (as in the OP's example) is comparing Jews to Nazis. Its quite possible that a more nuanced point was being made by whomever sprayed the graffiti, but at the end of the day, it is lumping the Jews in with the militant Zionists.

Its very similar to the White Devils issue in the US. I have white skin, but I am not any more privileged than most of the blacks that I live around - in fact, I know that many of them are more well off than I am. So, in attacking the white nationalist economic system here, it would not be fair to attack all whites. The same is of course true for the Jewish issue.

[Glenn Beck]

It's way harder to stencil a flag with colors and everything than it is to spraypaint a hexagram. It kind of defeats the simplicity of the whole (star of david) = (swastika) graffiti.

The graffiti itself is somewhat problematic but like Apikoros said, take that up with the Zionists who set themselves up as the representatives of all Jews everywhere. It's not really a wonder that with the support of the greater part of the western media and intelligentsia for their claim and the relative lack of publicly heard Jewish voices against it lots of people have pretty much taken their word for it.

The entire symbolism of the Israeli flag is precisely that it sends the message that Israel is the state of the Jews by using the symbol of Judaism and bearing a design reminiscent of a prayer shawl. Given that the flag itself is made up of Jewish symbolism the distinction between putting up an Israeli flag vs. a plain Star of David would probably be lost on almost everyone.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Symbols are merely human constructed ways to get across a message. Grow up. When we blast a tendency that we don't like (such as Trots blasting Stalinists) we don't cry that our symbol (a hammer and sickle) is the same as theirs. There are far better things to talk about than stars. :rolleyes:

Agreed, but Trots get ham/sick/4

[Weezer]

Agreed, but Trots get ham/sick/4

And Tongs.

[Sean]

Problem of course is that the evil jew is as much a leftist boogy man as the evil likely to explode muslim is to the other side of the coin. I'm only half joking.

Point is, you could change the flag to Barney the fucking dinosaur and people will still hate it because of what it represents. When the people of Israel stop it being airstrip one my views will change but until then its an oppressive western regime installed for the rape of the east and little more. Granted its a home to many persecuted people, but theres been little done to stop it being anything other than a military camp.

[cska]

Problem of course is that the evil jew is as much a leftist boogy man as the evil likely to explode muslim is to the other side of the coin. I'm only half joking.

Point is, you could change the flag to Barney the fucking dinosaur and people will still hate it because of what it represents. When the people of Israel stop it being airstrip one my views will change but until then its an oppressive western regime installed for the rape of the east and little more. Granted its a home to many persecuted people, but theres been little done to stop it being anything other than a military camp.

The Star of David is a religious symbol for all Jews. The Israeli flag represents the Zionist nation of Israel. You shouldn't drag down all Jews in your condemnation of Israel.

[Sean]

The Star of David is a religious symbol for all Jews. The Israeli flag represents the Zionist nation of Israel. You shouldn't drag down all Jews in your condemnation of Israel.
I stand corrected and apologise. I accidentally exemplified what this thread is about.

However I don't give a crap about Judaism or any other religion and think this should be moved to OI:Religion. The three in one religion-race-state card isn't an all access pass on these boards.

[Antifa94]

However I don't give a crap about Judaism or any other religion and think...

This isn't about religion, it's about indirect and unintended discrimination.
Shut the fuck up with your apathy towards Judaism and the Jews.
I'm not religious in the slightest, am an atheist, however, if one "stops caring" about Judaism etc. the cultural identity dies. A holocaust can occur again. One must not forget the history of the world's most persecuted groups, be it Gypsies, Africans, homosexuals, Armenians, leftists, Muslims, or Jews.

[Antifa94]

It's way harder to stencil a flag with colors and everything than it is to spraypaint a hexagram. It kind of defeats the simplicity of the whole (star of david) = (swastika) graffiti.

The graffiti itself is somewhat problematic but like Apikoros said, take that up with the Zionists who set themselves up as the representatives of all Jews everywhere. It's not really a wonder that with the support of the greater part of the western media and intelligentsia for their claim and the relative lack of publicly heard Jewish voices against it lots of people have pretty much taken their word for it.

The entire symbolism of the Israeli flag is precisely that it sends the message that Israel is the state of the Jews by using the symbol of Judaism and bearing a design reminiscent of a prayer shawl. Given that the flag itself is made up of Jewish symbolism the distinction between putting up an Israeli flag vs. a plain Star of David would probably be lost on almost everyone.

So you'd like to protract ignorance? It's like drawing a sign stating that the Labour party = hammer and sickle.

One can argue with them and ask them to change their symbol, but for the time being, when denigrating the state, use its symbol, not that of something else. Unlike swastikas, the star of david is not associated with a state as much as it is with a group of people.

Though zionism and Judaism are superficially tied, at least presented as an ideological bridge, the two are not the same.

Say you're a Stalinist, and you wish to denigrate Trotskyism. You won't equate the hammer and sickle with a swastika, you'll equate the Fourth International variation of the symbol with fascism.

[Sean]

However I don't give a crap about Judaism or any other religion and think...

This isn't about religion, it's about indirect and unintended discrimination.
Shut the fuck up with your apathy towards Judaism and the Jews.
I'm not religious in the slightest, am an atheist, however, if one "stops caring" about Judaism etc. the cultural identity dies. A holocaust can occur again. One must not forget the history of the world's most persecuted groups, be it Gypsies, Africans, homosexuals, Armenians, leftists, Muslims, or Jews.
I didn't say apathy towards jews as a race, I said towards Judaism, which I thought was well distinguished as a word that describes the cant-do-crap-on-saturday religion. I don't like that jewish = religion-race-state and feel that a lot of strong words get deliberately misplaced as bigoted and intolerant because of this. Religious beliefs are largely off the far left agenda here, think what you will about that.

In the course of trying to come up with good reasons this should be moved to OI:Religion I've realised its place is here, but don't expect your ridiculous beliefs to be treated with kid gloves.

I think that your idea of changing the star of david because of its oppression is frankly cowardice and if you're that afraid of someone recognising your devicive iconography then dont use it. My views are polar opposite to yours on this subject because if you insist on seperating yourself from everyone else with a special symbol then at least carry the pride that should come with it. I've never heard anything as stupid in my life outside of Kevin Smith's movie 'Dogma'.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

A few thoughts: A), since the line that Zionists always always use to discredit anti-Zionism is that it's just anti-Semitism, I'd think it'd make sense for anti-Zionists to avoid behaviour that could be mistaken for anti-Semitism in any way (of course, the fact that anti-Semitism is fucking repulsive in its own right is also a good reason to do this). When anti-Zionists use imagery, like anti-Star-of-David stuff, that can be mistaken for anti-Semitism, they make the Zionists' job easier.
B ), although it's true that the Jewish religion is not identical with Zionism, it is true that the Jewish religion is generally pretty sexist, homophobic, authoritarian and fundamentally based on stories which aren't true, which is a good reason to oppose it in itself.
C) Godwin's law. Saying that someone is the same as the nazis is almost always a bad argument. If you compare Israel to the Nazis, then again you give Zionists an easy cop-out, since they can just talk about the numerous important ways in which Israel differs from Nazism (no death camps, etc). If you just talk about the fact that Israel is doing horrific things and causing large amounts of suffering, without bringing up the question of whether or not these horrific things resemble the horrific things the Nazis did, then it's much harder for them to dodge it.

[9]

Isn't it sort of a silly discussion, though? Who here is doing graffiti using stars of David? No one, I think we can safely assume. If we want to have a discussion about the importance of differentiating between Jews and Zionists, fine, but it is a different discussion.
Anyway, the thing is that most people, at least in the US, see anti-Zionism as just as anti-Semitic as anti-Semitism. The idea that most people here would be less offended by a swastika superimposed on a Israeli flag than they would be by a swastika superimposed on a star of David is pretty laughable. But personally, I don't find anything offensive about it and I am certainly not going to scold people who do it as anti-Semitic or whatever. I'm sick of everything being off limits due to the possibility that someone might misinterpret it as anti-Semitism; that is the way Zionism protects itself and I've personally gotten to the point where I don't frankly give a shit if someone thinks what I'm saying is anti-Semitic, psychological, etc. anymore.

[cska]

A few thoughts: A), since the line that Zionists always always use to discredit anti-Zionism is that it's just anti-Semitism, I'd think it'd make sense for anti-Zionists to avoid behaviour that could be mistaken for anti-Semitism in any way (of course, the fact that anti-Semitism is fucking repulsive in its own right is also a good reason to do this). When anti-Zionists use imagery, like anti-Star-of-David stuff, that can be mistaken for anti-Semitism, they make the Zionists' job easier.
B ), although it's true that the Jewish religion is not identical with Zionism, it is true that the Jewish religion is generally pretty sexist, homophobic, authoritarian and fundamentally based on stories which aren't true, which is a good reason to oppose it in itself.
C) Godwin's law. Saying that someone is the same as the nazis is almost always a bad argument. If you compare Israel to the Nazis, then again you give Zionists an easy cop-out, since they can just talk about the numerous important ways in which Israel differs from Nazism (no death camps, etc). If you just talk about the fact that Israel is doing horrific things and causing large amounts of suffering, without bringing up the question of whether or not these horrific things resemble the horrific things the Nazis did, then it's much harder for them to dodge it.

Why is it that Godwin's law is always incorrectly used? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Though Godwin's law has little to do with this, you have a point though. It is the same reason I object to calling the tea-partiers fascists. When I do invoke the Nazis, I usually say "what you support is exactly what Nazis did and what everyone condemns the Nazis for doing!" The advantage about this is that the bad things that Nazis did are almost universally accepted as bad things.

[zimmerwald1915]

Excuse me? this is a religious and ethnic identity, not some petty ideological dispute.
And "religious and ethnic identitiy" is not an ideological construct how?

[ZombieGrits]

Maybe any concerned grafittists could use the Kahane Chai logo instead of a plain star of David. Kach is a load of dicks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach_and_Kahane_Chai

[scarletghoul]

However I don't give a crap about Judaism or any other religion and think this should be moved to OI:Religion. The three in one religion-race-state card isn't an all access pass on these boards.
This isn't really to do with religion at all. The star of David is a symbol for all Jews even those who aren't religious.


Maybe any concerned grafittists could use the Kahane Chai logo instead of a plain star of David. Kach is a load of dicks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach_and_Kahane_Chai (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach_and_Kahane_Chai)

WTF, they stole the Star of David AND the raised fist ?!?! Those bastards. That symbol should belong to us !!

Fucking NaZionists