Transgenderism

[RedHK]

Hello comrades, another question/discussion starter of mine.

The topic is transgendered/transsexual/mtf/ftm/etc people. What are most of your views on it? How well do you think it ties in with the communist idea?

Personally, I think everyone is equal, and I believe that is also one of the things communism stands for, however, I keep hearing quite a bit on how many homosexuals and transsexuals are very discriminated on or are part of a "class," etc etc. in the communist society.

Even though USSR/Cuba/China/NorthKorea/etc are/were not REALLY communist nations, except in name (I hope I do not get flamed for this), homo/transsexuality was heavily oppressed, as I've seen and read upon.

However, I am also a firm believer that homosexuality/transsexuality isn't something to get attention on, it's just a way of life that some people live in (and many, cannot help it), thus bringing attention to onesself with causes on LGBT rights, etc etc should, in my opinion, not be heavily expressed.

However, how is one to live in a communist society if this was how it really was (discrimination against trans, anyway) being a transgender/transsexual without something horribly happening? Would oppression be the only answer? Most "communist" nations today (Cuba being one of them, I believe) pay for transgenderal needs from the government itself.

Just looking for thoughts, and opinions.

Thank you for taking your time to read this.

[cska]

However, I am also a firm believer that homosexuality/transsexuality isn't something to get attention on, it's just a way of life that some people live in (and many, cannot help it), thus bringing attention to onesself with causes on LGBT rights, etc etc should, in my opinion, not be heavily expressed.


In an ideal society where discrimination wasn't the case, there would be no reason to bring lots of attention on homosexuality/transsexuality. However, in most societies today, we do have problems of homophobia etc. Not bringing attention to these problems is not going to make these problems go away. Thus, we need to bring attention to these problems so we can eradicate them.

[RedHK]

In an ideal society where discrimination wasn't the case, there would be no reason to bring lots of attention on homosexuality/transsexuality. However, in most societies today, we do have problems of homophobia etc. Not bringing attention to these problems is not going to make these problems go away. Thus, we need to bring attention to these problems so we can eradicate them.

True, however, it doesn't need to be the negative attentions people seem to be seeing today. All you see if promiscuity and media always tends to make transgenders/transsexuals and what have you to look like they are always prostitutes or very sexual people.

That is all I meant by the attention thing. It never seems to be in a positive manner.

[cska]

True, however, it doesn't need to be the negative attentions people seem to be seeing today. All you see if promiscuity and media always tends to make transgenders/transsexuals and what have you to look like they are always prostitutes or very sexual people.

That is all I meant by the attention thing. It never seems to be in a positive manner.

Ahh I see. You are right. All the attention it gets in the media is negative and heavily stereotyped.

[Il Medico]

Prejudice stems from class society, it is a necessity of class society to keep the oppressed class divided against it self in order to prevent the ruling classes overthrow. A united proletariat is a dangerous thing indeed. And fighting for oppressed groups rights and equality, along with combating taught prejudices held by our fellow proletarians, is a vital part of building class consciousness among workers and thus important step on the road to overthrowing capitalism.

[khad]

Ok, I figured that this topic would resurface in some way or another now that the old thread has been closed (at 666 posts!)

This is a reminder to KEEP IT CIVIL.

There will be no witch hunting, no demands on users to show prove their leftist credentials by declaring intent to date a transsexual.

Seriously, KEEP IT CIVIL. If this topic devolves into a flamewar, it may be closed.

[bcbm]

you could at least wait until somebody says something stupid to post a warning.

[Jazzratt]

Ok, I figured that this topic would resurface in some way or another now that the old thread has been closed (at 666 posts!)

Well no shit sherlock. Transgender people are discriminated against (even on this site) and this is the discrimination forum - you must have been up night working that one out.


There will be no witch hunting

Does calling someone out on their anti-trans stance count as "witch hunting"?


Seriously, KEEP IT CIVIL. If this topic devolves into a flamewar, it may be closed.

Generally you only post a warning like this when something has happened, as bcbm pointed out.

[black magick hustla]

i have no problem with transgendered people. obviously. what i disagree though, is the fact that there is such thing as "being born as a woman" in a body of a man. i am not of the opinion that you are born a gender and you are always going to be a gender. but i dont think it makes sense to say that you had the spirit of a woman or whatever. because what people consider being "feminine" is completely made up, and you cannot be born with made up things.

[h0m0revolutionary]

homosexuals and transsexuals are very discriminated..

homo/transsexuality was heavily oppressed..

However, I am also a firm believer that homosexuality/transsexuality..

I want to come back on this question and more importantly what's been posted above about trans people not being born into a gendered role.

But while i'm short on time, just wanted to remind comrades that transexual isn't a synonym for all trans people. Transsexuals are post-operation individuals who have undergone sex-reassignment surgery. Their transition is mostly permanent.

Trans on the other hand is an umberella term emcompassing transgendered people, transvestites, transsexuals, and (subject to debate), intersex and genderqueer people too.

</pedantic> ;)

[khad]

Well no shit sherlock. Transgender people are discriminated against (even on this site) and this is the discrimination forum - you must have been up night working that one out.
Your attitude definitely needs work, Jazzratt. Senseless hostility towards people spamming your wall is one thing, but towards a mod in a public forum is quite another.


Does calling someone out on their anti-trans stance count as "witch hunting"?

Generally you only post a warning like this when something has happened, as bcbm pointed out.This isn't a warning, and I specifically avoided using that term. If you'd like, and if you have some of your precious time to spare, you can read it again.

Given what's happened in almost every one of these threads in recent memory, and given that this thread could be considered a continuation of a previous topic recently closed, a notice is entirely justified (http://www.revleft.com/vb/would-you-date-t113436/index.html?p=1650913#post1650913).

[Andropov]

This is a subject I know damn all about tbh.
But what do posters here think about people who seem to believe that they are some form of animal like a cat or the like and get surgery to replicate that mentality they seem to believe they have?

[Il Medico]

This is a subject I know damn all about tbh.
But what do posters here think about people who seem to believe that they are some form of animal like a cat or the like and get surgery to replicate that mentality they seem to believe they have?
I would say that they are mentally ill. Believing you are a different species is something completely different from not having your sex and gender line up. For example my sex is male but I would say that my gender is androgynous. For those who are men who feel their sex is more along the line of the feminine, why should they not be able to make their sex match their gender if they wish? It is also important to remember that often sex changes can be about gaining acceptance as most of society does not differentiate between gender and sex.

[RedHK]

This is a subject I know damn all about tbh.
But what do posters here think about people who seem to believe that they are some form of animal like a cat or the like and get surgery to replicate that mentality they seem to believe they have?

Okay, so you are saying that a woman is 100% genetically different than a man? (That men and women are of two different species or types of human?)
A common argument is that "If a cat wants to be a dog, how is that possible? It's wrong and impossible" etc etc, but cats and dogs are of two different species of a mammal. Humans are the same. A female and male dog is the same, a female and male cat is the same, etc etc because they belong of the same species.

So what is the difference here? As I said, are you saying that a male and female human are definite 100% different types of thing?

[cska]

Gender is a social construct so if it was just the wrong gender I don't see the reason to change the sex to match the "gender" as there is no mismatch in the first place.

[RedHK]

Gender is a social construct so if it was just the wrong gender I don't see the reason to change the sex to match the "gender" as there is no mismatch in the first place.

I can see your point, but seeing a male who feels effeminate trying to fit a female society seems a bit wrong, not to mention would get you in a mess of trouble with intolerant and/or people with phobias against it.

Maybe in a perfect communist society where all people are equal, even sexes, it would be a bit different, but people are still bound to feel that way.

What do you propose they should do about it?

[cska]

Yeah you are right. If the discrimination is too bad, which it probably is, then it is a good idea to change their sex in current society. However, I don't think changing to a cat is going to make you more acceptable to society. :laugh:

[Dr Mindbender]

Your attitude definitely needs work, Jazzratt. Senseless hostility towards people spamming your wall is one thing, but towards a mod in a public forum is quite another.




Au contrare, I think his attitude was wholly appropriate.

There is a world of difference between declaring your intent to date a transexual and saying you would never date someone because of their transexuality.

But thanks to you, the waters on the matter have been muddied again in a way which only serves to provide a veiled defence to bona fide transphobes.

Way to go.

[RedHK]

Here is another thing to discuss about, ALONG with the first post I made that opened this topic..

If gender is a social construct, then how is that to judge them by the clothes they wear or what they call themselves? Gender =/= Sexuality, unless you let western/capitalist media tell you otherwise, the most common being: "All transsexual/transgendered people are gay."

Well what if they were straight? What if they just liked wearing womens clothes? Does that make them less productive? Of course not....

Honestly, in my opinion, if your gender (no matter male, female, or trans) = automatic homosexuality, then you need help or need to research transsexualism, since alot of transgenders that the media displays are MOSTLY (not all of them) faking it for media attention or for stereotyping. Because I think honestly you're letting capitalist media get to your head too much if you auto-assume that all transsexuals are gay and/or are nothing but prostitutes or whatever else the media says they are. :blink:

[Dean]

since alot of transgenders that the media displays are MOSTLY (not all of them) faking it for media attention or for stereotyping.
I don't think this is a fair characterization. To be sure, there are people that "fake" all sorts of things, but I don't think it is our place to judge people on their claimed sexual or gender identity.

[RedHK]

I don't think this is a fair characterization. To be sure, there are people that "fake" all sorts of things, but I don't think it is our place to judge people on their claimed sexual or gender identity.

Maybe I was a little too harsh on the statement, but you have to admit.. there are a lot of people out there saying they are gay just for attention or for popularity in schools and in general public, or just to make a scene for people.... when in reality it should be a private matter, but it seems to be all for attention and that is what media tends to show. Which in this case, makes them look bad or has them viewed the same as all the others alienating and ridiculing true homosexualism/transsexualism.

And I really can't blame closeted homo/transsexuals for being so closed in about their information, if people knew they would probably ridicule them based on people's generalization based on most of these people who are either just doing it for the attention or based on what media portays them as.

[Dr Mindbender]

Maybe I was a little too harsh on the statement, but you have to admit.. there are a lot of people out there saying they are gay just for attention or for popularity in schools and in general public,.

Given the incredibly homophobic nature of our current society, if i wanted public attention of the positive variety the last thing i would do is come out as gay for attention's sake.

Are you going to tell us exactly who pretending to be gay is irritating you so much or are you going to admit you're talking out of your hole?

[RedHK]

Given the incredibly homophobic nature of our current society, if i wanted public attention of the positive variety the last thing i would do is come out as gay for attention's sake.

Are you going to tell us exactly who pretending to be gay is irritating you so much or are you going to admit you're talking out of your hole?

I really don't have to admit to either because I know a ton of people who do it, personally and impersonally. I've had friends who've pretended to be gay just so girls would drool over them. It's one thing to be homosexual, but another to stretch it out so far that it seems like some special gift.

I am all for homosexuality/transsexuality, but only if it's treated as an everyday normal thing (I view homo and trans sexuals as normal people just like you and me), not as if it makes you some sort of special person that deserves special treatment.

[bcbm]

Given what's happened in almost every one of these threads in recent memory, (http://www.revleft.com/vb/would-you-date-t113436/index.html?p=1650913#post1650913)

there aren't that many recent threads on trans issues i can recall. there's maybe two or three in the four pages i can see, and only one of them has more than a few posts.


and given that this thread could be considered a continuation of a previous topic recently closed, a notice is entirely justified (http://www.revleft.com/vb/would-you-date-t113436/index.html?p=1650913#post1650913)i really don't see at all how this could be considered a "continuation" of that thread. the last post was effectively in january.

[cska]

there aren't that many recent threads on trans issues i can recall. there's maybe two or three in the four pages i can see, and only one of them has more than a few posts.
i really don't see at all how this could be considered a "continuation" of that thread. the last post was effectively in january.

He wanted to make sure the thread doesn't derail so warned everyone in advance. Seeing as what happened to that thread, it is something good to keep in mind.

Anyways, regarding the topic, I know plenty of guys that put on a show of being gay (don't know many girls, so I wouldn't know about them), and they only help perpetuate a lot of stupid stereotypes about homosexuals. They take what is something natural and degrade it into something that seems pervert.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

It's a somewhat complex issue. Gender identity, along with sexual orientation, can often be rather fluid. What research I've done seems to indicate that virtually every culture in the world, at some time in its history, has had a role for what are today termed "transgenders". South Asian cultures have "hijras", there are Native American "bedarches", there are transgender traditions in Polynesian cultures.TG people are mentioned in the Koran and there is evidence the Swedish god Frey was the center of some sort of transgender cult.TGism, like being gay, or straight, is part of the infinite diversity of us humans.

Gender identity, including that of TGs is a deep seated part of one's personal identity. Billy Tipton, the jazz musician, was f to m. No one knew this and Tipton, suffering from cancer, refused to have medical treatment in fear of being outed. He died for his identity.

In many of these cultures "gender variant" roles often had religious or spiritual significance.World wide much of this tradition was destroyed or surpressed by Xtian missionaries, Western imperialism, and modernization.

In the US TG issues are closely tied in w/issues of racial and class oppression. For working class TG people of color life can be a nightmare.There are many, many stories of TG people being horrifically killed.Without "education" or "job skills" to make oneself useful to the ruling class, working class TGs often have to resort to sex work in highly dangerous situations in order to continue to eat.
There is incredible police brutality in the US against working class TGs. There have been incidents in DC, Philadelphia, NY and elsewhere documented by Amnesty International. The early 2000s saw a string of TG murders in DC.There was the Gwen Arraujo case in which a young Hispanic TG was brutally beaten and killed at a party and no one reported this to the police until several weeks later.

Since the rise of the Internet in the 90s there has been a global revival in TG traditions. This has created greater visibility but at the same time greater anti-TG violence. There's also an enormous amount of sensationalism by the media but little real information.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

This is a subject I know damn all about tbh.
But what do posters here think about people who seem to believe that they are some form of animal like a cat or the like and get surgery to replicate that mentality they seem to believe they have?

There are people who claim to identify as animals , "otherkin", I'm not sure if they go as far as to have surgery. The "otherkin" or "furry" fads are basically metaphors for the alienation produced by capitalism, the need to control one's life and identity. Transgenerism is a different phenomena.

[Elevator]

Since the rise of the Internet in the 90s there has been a global revival in TG traditions. This has created greater visibility but at the same time greater anti-TG violence. There's also an enormous amount of sensationalism by the media but little real information.

This is too true. The media seems to "glamorize" a cross-dresser, or a drag-queen; there are multiple examples of TV shows in the US and parts of Asia to show this point. "RuPauls Drag Race" was considered a smash-hit on Logo and VH1, while true-life documentaries of FTMs- movies based on true stories of MTFs- on Bravo, were all given low ratings with few viewers.
This post also touches topic on Gwen Araujo, but there is also Brandon Teena and so many others unknown that are raped and murdered without real reason or cause every year.
The skewed views of gender is the real blame for this. It's not something that should be brought to attention, or kept under the blankets. It's something that should exist peacefully. Do you hear about every marriage that happens, albeit the small newspaper article?
People - all people- respect their privacy, no matter their identity.
If only everyone could understand that- that everyone is human, then I believe the violence and hate would die down. It wouldn't be completely resolved, no, but then again violence is within human nature so no one can really expect that to change.

[elf]

RedHK, your attitude can only be described as fucked up. Trans* and otherwise queer folk are in no way in a safe situation in most societies around the world. The discrimination against people who come out as queer (including in schools, and on conservative media) often makes people deny their sexuality for many years.
Maybe I was a little too harsh on the statement, but you have to admit.. there are a lot of people out there saying they are gay just for attention or for popularity in schools and in general public, or just to make a scene for people.... when in reality it should be a private matter, but it seems to be all for attention and that is what media tends to show. Which in this case, makes them look bad or has them viewed the same as all the others alienating and ridiculing true homosexualism/transsexualism. I have never met, or heard of, anyone "being gay" for attention or for popularity. Indeed, being gay would actually be the sort of thing you do to be not popular. You don't complain when people pretend to be hetro do you? Because that's "normal" it doesn't offend you... Being "normal" means that people don't have to pretend, they don't have to be private about their sexuality. Why should being queer be any different? A queer person should not have to hide away, which is what you seem to be suggesting.
I am all for homosexuality/transsexuality, but only if it's treated as an everyday normal thing (I view homo and trans sexuals as normal people just like you and me), not as if it makes you some sort of special person that deserves special treatment. Oh that's nice. You're all for people being "homosexual" or "transsexual". Good for you. But, oh no, they don't deserve special treatment. And those black folk, they can go to college without any help, because that would be special treatment. And paternity leave isn't important, because women shouldn't get special treatment. Actually, maybe people in society who are disadvantaged do deserve special treatment. Because, you know, they are discriminated against.

[RedHK]

RedHK, your attitude can only be described as fucked up. Trans* and otherwise queer folk are in no way in a safe situation in most societies around the world. The discrimination against people who come out as queer (including in schools, and on conservative media) often makes people deny their sexuality for many years. I have never met, or heard of, anyone "being gay" for attention or for popularity. Indeed, being gay would actually be the sort of thing you do to be not popular. You don't complain when people pretend to be hetro do you? Because that's "normal" it doesn't offend you... Being "normal" means that people don't have to pretend, they don't have to be private about their sexuality. Why should being queer be any different? A queer person should not have to hide away, which is what you seem to be suggesting. Oh that's nice. You're all for people being "homosexual" or "transsexual". Good for you.

My attitude, fucked up? That's great to hear.

I believe in equal rights, black people deserve an education, it's not special treatment, it's how it should work. Same goes for any other minority. Anyone who turns away these people based on their skin color or sexual orientation need to be put away or have their "high" or whatever you want to call it ranking to be ripped away from them, because that is corruption, my friend. But do they deserve more money? Do they deserve to have their ass wiped for them? No, they deserve what EVERY SINGLE OTHER human being gets. Not more, not less, which is what I was trying to state.

However, back to the topic of transsexual/homosexual minorities, I am sick of homosexual and transsexual people putting a bad name for people who actually go through struggles. What about all those famous transsexuals and gay people doing it for the money? Have you thought of that? And doing weird creepy stuff on television to make it seem like "Oh hey, ALL gays and transsexuals are like that." Maybe "fake" is not the word I was looking for in previous posts, for those who do it for money anyway, but they let the fame of it get to them. But fake does describe those who do it for popularity for people who happen to get off to homosexuality.

By the way, if you haven't seen homosexuality done for popularity, you must be either really blind or really ignorant. There is many girls out there who LOVE gay people. Hell, my roommate SQUEALS whenever she watched Yaoi (Japanese animation based on homosexuality) or even sees two guys kiss. And I literally do mean squeals and giggles, as many of my other female friends do. And I have had straight friends and seen tons of straight guys putting on a show for girls to drool over (which some have). They basically get off to it because of their gay fetishes. I am not saying ALL women do that, but there is a few, especially in small circles. Does this make them more popular with men? Hell no, most men are going to beat those kids up senseless and even WORSE, which isn't even a humane thing to do. And if you are going to call me sexist based on this judgement, go right ahead, women are the same as everyone else. I am sure there are even some men who have gay fetishes.

If you're going to call my views fucked up, go right ahead. I happen to fall under the category of transgender (which I didn't want to state in this forum due to fear of discrimination on this forum) and I even think they shouldn't be expressed the way they are in western society today. If media and people I have described above are going to make me look so bad that people are going to think of me as a sick twisted horrific person, then you'll be darn right assured I don't want to be out in the open. It's gone too far, in my opinion, and if that is "fucked up" to you, then so be it, I don't really care what your views on myself are, I just want equal oppurtunities for people of all races and sexualities, but it is damn well NOT going to happen if media and certain people keep making them out the way they are doing so today.

EDIT:


But, oh no, they don't deserve special treatment. And those black folk, they can go to college without any help, because that would be special treatment. And paternity leave isn't important, because women shouldn't get special treatment. Actually, maybe people in society who are disadvantaged do deserve special treatment. Because, you know, they are discriminated against.

You got to be kidding me, did you even understand a word I said? I meant, no one, no race, no sexuality, should have more or less than another. It should all be equal. Do you think african-americans need more treatment than say, an asian? Or a homosexual? In either case, some of the leagues fighting for these rights are corrupted. Some of them always want more money, or more rights, and it even leads into elitism. And if you want to get into it, african-americans go through the same things true homosexual and transsexual minorities due, except media portays them as gangsters or are pro-violence, when I know many african-americans who are just like everyone else you would meet. But, this isn't about that, back on topic..

[Sean]

there aren't that many recent threads on trans issues i can recall. there's maybe two or three in the four pages i can see, and only one of them has more than a few posts.
i really don't see at all how this could be considered a "continuation" of that thread. the last post was effectively in january.
If not a continuation, then a recurring unresolved question, much like the spasticated fluffy threads on the age of consent (equating the stupidity not the activities). I'm going to try to keep out of this one though, since the holes i put my pee-pee into make me Adolf Hitler.

[JoyDivision]

At what point does the doctor just say, "wait one goddamn second, you are male, and cutting you up isn't going to change that any more than tucking your dick back does. You are so concerned about mimicking and identifying with something that you are not and you never can be that you are willing to permanently mutilate your genitalia? For what? So you can convince people who know you superficially that you are female? Do you think maybe you should talk to someone first, because this is pretty much the text book definition of psychosis".

[RedHK]

At what point does the doctor just say, "wait one goddamn second, you are male, and cutting you up isn't going to change that any more than tucking your dick back does. You are so concerned about mimicking and identifying with something that you are not and you never can be that you are willing to permanently mutilate your genitalia? For what? So you can convince people who know you superficially that you are female? Do you think maybe you should talk to someone first, because this is pretty much the text book definition of psychosis".

And who is the surgeon say who is psychotic and who is not? For he is a surgeon, not a psychiatrist. That is very choicey, if you ask me. What do you propose people who feel that way do?

Wouldn't the point of the society to be not biased on gender or sex, or even clothing? Maybe they like girl's clothing more than men's... does that make them have "psychosis" too?

If that is the case, everyone would have to wear the same clothing and masculinity/femininity would not exist, which is beyond impossible, because it exists in the brain and in the mind. Correct me if I am wrong here.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I am sick of homosexual and transsexual people putting a bad name for people who actually go through struggles. What about all those famous transsexuals and gay people doing it for the money? Have you thought of that? And doing weird creepy stuff on television to make it seem like "Oh hey, ALL gays and transsexuals are like that."

some of the leagues fighting for these rights are corrupted. Some of them always want more money, or more rights, and it even leads into elitism.

There is a class divide in the lgbt world just like everywhere else.The high profile Hollywood divas are not typical of the vast majority of lgbt people. The annual GLAAD awards-wealthy lgbt producers/actors congratulating one another is nauseating.Ellen DeGeneris is a scab (as well as being intensely annoying). For every "Ellen" though there are many working class lesbians who are militant socialists.

The class divide exists in the "transgender community" as well. "Mainstream" TG organizations are overwhelmingly white and upper middle class. There is an intense elitism as well-organizations seemed deliberately designed to shut out working class people of color. The mainstream groups though are being increasingly bypassed by younger, more radical elements.

RedHK-you might want to check out Leslie Feinberg's stuff. Feinberg is trans him/herself. Feinberg writes for Workers World.He/she has some excellent writing on lgbt issues from a Marxist perspective. (I'm not a member of WW and I have reservations about their stands, their lgbt stuff is good).

Liberal organizations fight for progressive causes-same sex marriage, etc but leave out any element of class struggle. This makes them seem elitist-fighting for rights which only benefit upper middle class people. The answer to this is to have an lgbt movement solidly rooted in working class struggles.

[khad]

At what point does the doctor just say, "wait one goddamn second, you are male, and cutting you up isn't going to change that any more than tucking your dick back does. You are so concerned about mimicking and identifying with something that you are not and you never can be that you are willing to permanently mutilate your genitalia? For what? So you can convince people who know you superficially that you are female? Do you think maybe you should talk to someone first, because this is pretty much the text book definition of psychosis".

To be sure, there is a dimension of social gender oppression manifested in the subjectivity of many who choose to undergo these operations. It's a bit of a misnomer to call these operations "gender reassignments," since what they often do is to force conformity to socially expected gender roles. This pressure is extreme in certain societies that still operate on an understanding of homosexuality and queer orientation as "sexual inversion," as in Iran where many homosexuals are essentially forced to undergo sex changes in order to live legally in the open.

The pressure of gender conformity is less in the West, but it's still there in various forms, and a potential transsexual can unfortunately still experience a great deal of trauma and anxiety over gender identity whose source is external in nature. Of course, counseling will help ensure that people are going into this with the right reasons, but there are still some who fall through the cracks (I know of at least one, in fact).

Still, I would like to see people not throw around things like "psychosis," since that only lends a sensationalist air to the discussion. Even if someone is not in the soundest state of mind, it's no reason to use terms with such dehumanizing connotations.

[Jazzratt]

At what point does the doctor just say, "wait one goddamn second, you are male, and cutting you up isn't going to change that any more than tucking your dick back does. You are so concerned about mimicking and identifying with something that you are not and you never can be that you are willing to permanently mutilate your genitalia? For what? So you can convince people who know you superficially that you are female? Do you think maybe you should talk to someone first, because this is pretty much the text book definition of psychosis".

Shortly before he's stripped of his medical liscence, if there is any justice.

[RedHK]

I would also like to note that it is not all about sex reassignment surgery.

There is also a years worth of hormones to take for the endocrine system to turn around to that of the other sex.

[JoyDivision]

RedHK

There is a clear difference. Your examples have to do with people going against socially established gender roles, and transsexuals deal with going against biological sex. The former is possible and fine, the latter is impossible and is based on a problem with identity and psychology.

[RedHK]

RedHK

There is a clear difference. Your examples have to do with people going against socially established gender roles, and transsexuals deal with going against biological sex. The former is possible and fine, the latter is impossible and is based on a problem with identity and psychology.

If it is possible and fine, then it wouldn't be discriminated against. Which is why I keep talking about media pertaining to transsexuals and crossdressers for that matter. They just make them seem like these horrific people, and are "always" gay and never straight. When there might be some who aren't, but due to media, someone might take their word for it over other's. Which is what I was trying to talk about earlier.

[Guerrilla22]

but seeing a male who feels effeminate trying to fit a female society seems a bit wrong

Here's the thing; gender roles are socially constructed as well. There is no natural way for a ma or woman to act by nature. Society determines how men and women are supposed to act and people act in accordance to societal standards.

[RedHK]

Here's the thing; gender roles are socially constructed as well. There is no natural way for a ma or woman to act by nature. Society determines how men and women are supposed to act and people act in accordance to societal standards.

In other words, in the goal society, there wouldn't be such a thing as social gender, correct?

[Dr Mindbender]

To be sure, there is a dimension of social gender oppression manifested in the subjectivity of many who choose to undergo these operations. It's a bit of a misnomer to call these operations "gender reassignments," since what they often do is to force conformity to socially expected gender roles. This pressure is extreme in certain societies that still operate on an understanding of homosexuality and queer orientation as "sexual inversion," as in Iran where many homosexuals are essentially forced to undergo sex changes in order to live legally in the open.

.

Lucy (http://gayteens.about.com/od/glbtteenlifestyle/gr/teentranssexual.htm) had been aware of her gender identity crisis since early childhood.

That sets in my mind that gender identity is a psychological trait acquired from birth more than it is a culturally learned one. The reason why you generally only see adults going for the process is the stigma surrounding the procedure.

Do you really believe children are as conscious of 'gender conformity' on nearly as many levels as adults?

[Andropov]

Okay, so you are saying that a woman is 100% genetically different than a man? (That men and women are of two different species or types of human?)
A common argument is that "If a cat wants to be a dog, how is that possible? It's wrong and impossible" etc etc, but cats and dogs are of two different species of a mammal. Humans are the same. A female and male dog is the same, a female and male cat is the same, etc etc because they belong of the same species.
So what is the difference here? As I said, are you saying that a male and female human are definite 100% different types of thing?
What are you raving about.
What I said was....

But what do posters here think about people who seem to believe that they are some form of animal like a cat or the like and get surgery to replicate that mentality they seem to believe they have?
Dont distort or misrepresent my post.

[RedHK]

What are you raving about.
What I said was....

Dont distort or misrepresent my post.

My apologies, I misread your post.

[cska]

In other words, in the goal society, there wouldn't be such a thing as social gender, correct?

Exactly. There would be no point in having a sex change operation to have your sex fit your gender, because there would be no such thing as social gender based on biological sex.

[JoyDivision]

Why is it supposed that sexual reassignment is primarily about gender roles? If that were the case they would tuck there dick back, wear what is considered women clothing, act feminine, as those are gender based behaviors.

This is something different, this is an attempt to change their sex.

[RedHK]

Exactly. There would be no point in having a sex change operation to have your sex fit your gender, because there would be no such thing as social gender based on biological sex.

Well then that is dandy, that was all I was trying to figure out. That and the fact of why they were still prosicuted in the past.

But I guess the question still stands, what is wrong with someone being transsexual? And why are they always assumed to be mistaken for a homosexual with feminine qualities?

All the statements I've made in this topic, still stand by me, I still blame media preception for the cause of it and I still wish for equal rights for all races, sexes, and sexualities.

I didn't mean for this topic to get into a flame war, I just wanted to see what people's thoughts on the matter were.


Why is it supposed that sexual reassignment is primarily about gender roles? If that were the case they would tuck there dick back, wear what is considered women clothing, act feminine, as those are gender based behaviors.

This is something different, this is an attempt to change their sex.

Exactly, which is why the questions and statements still stand. Because, in my opinion, social gender roles might never go away, thus, transsexuals will always want to be the opposite gender physically.

[Dr Mindbender]

gender role will never be removed naturally at least, purely because of the fundamental reason of biological function assigned to gender.

Most transexuals i have heard of, read about or watched on TV have felt physically repulsed by the sight and feeling of their birth genitals. Is it really such a leap of imagination that perhaps it is something more than simple social constructs causing this, especially as ive already pointed out, even children are affected by these tendencies?

Gender identity isnt the problem, and trying to mantain the illusion that it should or even can be removed is a distraction. The problem is the backwardness and irrational revulsion of social attitudes at large prohibiting and discouraging the transfer of one gender identity to another wether it be through operative means or cross dressing. A problem i'm sorry to say is not helped by the ignorance of some members here that enjoy the benefit of gender identity confidence who feel they are equipped to lecture transgendered people on their own misery and frustration.

[JoyDivision]

You're probably right, I am just a stupid fuck when it comes to this stuff as I don't know what it is like. But I cannot rationalize it away. That if someones is repulsed by their body because of their biological sexuality to the point that they are going to mutilate their genitals into mimicking someone elses, then they've got some sort of deep psychological problem, and need to talk it out with someone.

What is the relevant difference between this body image/identity disorder and things like anorexia or plastic surgery junkies?

Perhaps you can help, I don't see how mimicking a vagina with someones penis changes the fact the person has serious problems with themselves. It simply fixes a symptom of the problem.

[khad]

JoyDivision, I've already advised you against using sensationalist language in addressing this issue. You should have taken the hint.

This is a Verbal Warning.


Lucy (http://gayteens.about.com/od/glbtteenlifestyle/gr/teentranssexual.htm) had been aware of her gender identity crisis since early childhood.

That sets in my mind that gender identity is a psychological trait acquired from birth more than it is a culturally learned one. The reason why you generally only see adults going for the process is the stigma surrounding the procedure.

Do you really believe children are as conscious of 'gender conformity' on nearly as many levels as adults?
I was certainly aware of my status as a male at an early age (5-6), and was even fighting with kids in the neighborhood to gain respect and assert authority over them, in large part because I grew up in an environment where a certain level of violence from male children was tolerated as normal.

But this is somewhat sidetracking somewhat from the point you raised. Many of these stories involving "gender awakenings" at an early age refer to instances where these children rebel against certain types of play--girls refusing to play with dresses and dolls, boys refusing to play with trucks and tanks. These children are bombarded with gendered models of behavior long before they are able to articulate their first intelligent thought.

How would this situation be resolved in a society in which it's perfectly OK for men to wear "women's" dresses? We don't really have a point of comparison, but I suspect it would be different.

[JoyDivision]

Whatever dude, I'm using clinical language. If you attribute some sort of pejorative connotation to psychosis there is nothing I can do about, but I certainly do not. It's like any other health issue in my book and most other peoples, only it deals with the mind. The only sensationalism is on your part, for making such a big deal out of psychosis, and feeding into the ignorance and negative perceptions around it.

Likewise, penis and vagina are clinical terms, and mutilation is a matter of taste. Of course I could have said modification, but in the narrative I'm exploring mutilation fits better.

I think you'll find that the question of psychosis is a serious one in the field, and goes to the heart of how deeply biological sex is for humans. Further, you will find that most respectable hospitals have extensive psychological tests performed on patients inquiring about modification precisely because there is a problem with wanting to be biologically female when you are biologically male. Anyway, I confronted this issue head on in a professional manor, I was open to suggestion, and was called a prick and warned for it. This isn't even PR stuff, this is you guys being over sensitive, so enjoy talking with people that all think the same thing on the topic, I'm moving on to freer section of Revleft, never to return to this pseudo-PR nightmare of a section.

[Dr Mindbender]

I think you'll find that the question of psychosis is a serious one in the field, and goes to the heart of how deeply biological sex is for humans. Further, you will find that most respectable hospitals have extensive psychological tests performed on patients inquiring about modification precisely because there is a problem with wanting to be biologically female when you are biologically male. Anyway, I confronted this issue head on in a professional manor, I was open to suggestion, and was called a prick and warned for it. This isn't even PR stuff, this is you guys being over sensitive, so enjoy talking with people that all think the same thing on the topic, I'm moving on to freer section of Revleft, never to return to this pseudo-PR nightmare of a section.

If revleft was in its right mind it wouldnt welcome ignorant dickheads that refer to sexual reassignment as 'mutilation'.

Don't hurry back.

[Dr Mindbender]

I was certainly aware of my status as a male at an early age (5-6), and was even fighting with kids in the neighborhood to gain respect and assert authority over them, in large part because I grew up in an environment where a certain level of violence from male children was tolerated as normal.
Well that is good for you. Fortunately for you though, you enjoyed the privilege of having the biological gender that matched your psychological gender.

I'm not expecting you to understand or empathise with the quandry faced by TG people anytime soon.



But this is somewhat sidetracking somewhat from the point you raised. Many of these stories involving "gender awakenings" at an early age refer to instances where these children rebel against certain types of play--girls refusing to play with dresses and dolls, boys refusing to play with trucks and tanks. These children are bombarded with gendered models of behavior long before they are able to articulate their first intelligent thought.
My point is, the argument against transexualism by people here seems to be along the lines that people associate psychological gender with sexual preference, ie if it werent for our homophobic society then gay men wouldnt feel the need to become women as is the case in countries like Iran.

In the case of transgenderal children who are unable to make informed choices about their sexual preference yet they have a clear sense of sexual identity despite having little experience of the world and human relationships. How can you say this is a mere social construct?



How would this situation be resolved in a society in which it's perfectly OK for men to wear "women's" dresses? We don't really have a point of comparison, but I suspect it would be different.
Im genuinely troubled by the fact that you think the right of men to wear dresses is somehow 'enough' and that would reconcile the matter. The fact is there is a more deep rooted issue at stake than sexual preference and even in a totally homo-acceptant society the crisis experienced by people with gender ambiguity will always lead them back to wanting the genitals of the opposite birth gender.

[khad]

Im genuinely troubled by the fact that you think the right of men to wear dresses is somehow 'enough' and that would reconcile the matter. The fact is there is a more deep rooted issue at stake than sexual preference and even in a totally homo-acceptant society the crisis experienced by people with gender ambiguity will always lead them back to wanting the genitals of the opposite birth gender.
This is why getting involved in these threads is invariably a waste of time, because of people who want to make this into a completely black and white issue. I merely stated the possibility that some of those who undergo sexual reassignment have experienced undue social gender oppression. I'm only replying here because I'm not about to allow strawmen to be used as a pretext to go after people.

Let's go over I said, just so everyone can be on the same page.


To be sure, there is a dimension of social gender oppression manifested in the subjectivity of many who choose to undergo these operations. [note: not ALL] It's a bit of a misnomer to call these operations "gender reassignments," since what they often do is to force conformity to socially expected gender roles. This pressure is extreme in certain societies that still operate on an understanding of homosexuality and queer orientation as "sexual inversion," as in Iran where many homosexuals [note: not ALL] are essentially forced to undergo sex changes in order to live legally in the open.

The pressure of gender conformity is less in the West, but it's still there in various forms, and a potential transsexual can [note: not "will"] unfortunately still experience a great deal of trauma and anxiety over gender identity whose source is external in nature. Of course, counseling will help ensure that people are going into this with the right reasons, but there are still some [note: not ALL] who fall through the cracks (I know of at least one, in fact).


How would this situation be resolved in a society in which it's perfectly OK for men to wear "women's" dresses? We don't really have a point of comparison, but I suspect it would be different. [note: I do not offer any definite conclusions]

All I am merely suggesting is that out of the entire set of people who undergo sex reassignment surgery, there are SOME who are influenced by oppression under social expectations of gender conformity. That much has even been documented. At no point do I deny anyone the right to have these operations, and I even stated that people should be sure they're "going into this with the right reasons."

All this proves to me is that neither side here is willing to talk about this in rational manner. Even in the few exchanges that have occurred in this thread, I have received pointless hostility and been attacked for the simple act of trying to mediate the two sides of the debate. I'm out.

Oh, and JoyDivision gets a PM warning.

[gorillafuck]

JoyDivision: What's wrong with altering your body which in the case of transexuals, is changing genitalia? I really doubt that you'd show near as much distaste at the idea of someone getting breast enlargement surgery or for having a face lift, both of which are "unnatural".

[Raisa]

No I do not think that it ties in with communism at all because the majority of that movement dignifies gender roles and communism does not.

How can you be a transexual if the sexes are truly in an equal situation?
Why would having more "femanine" qualities make you have to be a woman if you really have the freedom and the rights reguardless.

You would most likely just continue being a feminine man. You wouldnt need to be a woman to be "free" in communism because in communism contributing to the community is what matters, not your genitals. People will treat you the same reguardless.

In this society its different.

And as far as being gay is concerned, some people are just gay, it doesnt bother anyone, and in communism a persons sexual preferences as long as they dont hurt people or get in the way of things that need to be done, are fine. otherwise its sexual abuse reguardless.

If we are in the army for example, it shouldnt matter if you are gay or straight, sexuality should be behind closed doors. Not for the sake of puritanism but because outside is for everyone and there might be a chance that some people are uncomfortable with that much of a display of sexuality.

Holding hands or kissing allright, but everything needs to be in your house reguardless. Or else its like you are pushing sexuality in general onto people in public and too much of that might make people uncomfortable and it also diminishes respect. Thats a page people should chose to turn to in life not be forced into the akward situation of having to be presented with when their in a public place and see two people doing sexual stuff in public. It changes the whole vibe.

[RedHK]

No I do not think that it ties in with communism at all because the majority of that movement dignifies gender roles and communism does not.

How can you be a transexual if the sexes are truly in an equal situation?
Why would having more "femanine" qualities make you have to be a woman if you really have the freedom and the rights reguardless.

You would most likely just continue being a feminine man. You wouldnt need to be a woman to be "free" in communism because in communism contributing to the community is what matters, not your genitals. People will treat you the same reguardless.

In this society its different.

And as far as being gay is concerned, some people are just gay, it doesnt bother anyone, and in communism a persons sexual preferences as long as they dont hurt people or get in the way of things that need to be done, are fine. otherwise its sexual abuse reguardless.

If we are in the army for example, it shouldnt matter if you are gay or straight, sexuality should be behind closed doors. Not for the sake of puritanism but because outside is for everyone and there might be a chance that some people are uncomfortable with that much of a display of sexuality.

Holding hands or kissing allright, but everything needs to be in your house reguardless. Or else its like you are pushing sexuality in general onto people in public and too much of that might make people uncomfortable and it also diminishes respect. Thats a page people should chose to turn to in life not be forced into the akward situation of having to be presented with when their in a public place and see two people doing sexual stuff in public. It changes the whole vibe.

Probably ONE of the few posts in this whole topic that was useful and on point. Thanks for your input.

And a note, I didn't want this thread to be hostile or to get out of hand like it did, it was just a question based on what this person said. I wanted to see what the problem was in past "communist" nations. But instead the whole thread become an offensive topic based on whether transsexuality was "right or wrong."

EDIT: A question though, as I've asked before, what happens in the male doesn't care for male clothing and prefers women's? And if they acted that out in public, but they were still contributing to the community, wouldn't that be getting in the way as well or shoving sexual preferences in people's eyes?

[The Feral Underclass]

If revleft was in its right mind it wouldnt welcome ignorant dickheads that refer to sexual reassignment as 'mutilation'.

Don't hurry back.

This is not an acceptable attitude. Modify your language.

[bcbm]

Holding hands or kissing allright, but everything needs to be in your house reguardless. Or else its like you are pushing sexuality in general onto people in public and too much of that might make people uncomfortable and it also diminishes respect. Thats a page people should chose to turn to in life not be forced into the akward situation of having to be presented with when their in a public place and see two people doing sexual stuff in public. It changes the whole vibe.

and you're sure its not for the sake of puritanism?

[cska]

Well that is good for you. Fortunately for you though, you enjoyed the privilege of having the biological gender that matched your psychological gender.

I don't know about Khad, but my personality does not fit male gender roles, and is probably in between female and male gender roles. Now, I don't have too much trouble in society because of that (or rather, thanks to racism/culturism, I had already given up trying to fit into society). However, for people who are somewhat more feminine and are also homosexual, they would be better of with a sex change in this society. Thus, there is societal pressure to change your sex.


JoyDivision: What's wrong with altering your body which in the case of transexuals, is changing genitalia? I really doubt that you'd show near as much distaste at the idea of someone getting breast enlargement surgery or for having a face lift, both of which are "unnatural".

I consider breast enlargement surgeries and face lifts disgusting. They are certainly very unnatural. Now, surgery on your genitalia feels even more unnatural, but I am willing to make a conscious choice to accept it if it really is natural for some people.

[RedHK]

I consider breast enlargement surgeries and face lifts disgusting. They are certainly very unnatural. Now, surgery on your genitalia feels even more unnatural, but I am willing to make a conscious choice to accept it if it really is natural for some people.

I have to agree with you on that one, but, now that I think about it... Plastic surgery and SRS go hand in hand with that situation.

Alot of girls think they need to be more beautiful just like girls they see in magazines, and a TG person has to be a girl just like society would deem them.

It makes me sad when my girlfriend says she needs something done to her body when all in all it doesn't even matter, but it can't be helped.

[gorillafuck]

EDIT: A question though, as I've asked before, what happens in the male doesn't care for male clothing and prefers women's? And if they acted that out in public, but they were still contributing to the community, wouldn't that be getting in the way as well or shoving sexual preferences in people's eyes?
It's "shoving sexual preferences" just as much as two straight people kissing in public or two gay men holding hands. Or in other words, it's not forcing sexual preferences at all.

[elf]

My attitude, fucked up? That's great to hear.

I believe in equal rights, black people deserve an education, it's not special treatment, it's how it should work. Same goes for any other minority. Anyone who turns away these people based on their skin color or sexual orientation need to be put away or have their &quot;high&quot; or whatever you want to call it ranking to be ripped away from them, because that is corruption, my friend. But do they deserve more money? Do they deserve to have their ass wiped for them? No, they deserve what EVERY SINGLE OTHER human being gets. Not more, not less, which is what I was trying to state.
The point was, do you think POC should get scholarships because they are POC (and poor etc.)? POC are at a disadvantage in most "western" societies. Scholarships etc. are a method of providing them with assistance to break the poverty cycle.

By the way, if you haven't seen homosexuality done for popularity, you must be either really blind or really ignorant. There is many girls out there who LOVE gay people. Hell, my roommate SQUEALS whenever she watched Yaoi (Japanese animation based on homosexuality) or even sees two guys kiss. And I literally do mean squeals and giggles, as many of my other female friends do. And I have had straight friends and seen tons of straight guys putting on a show for girls to drool over (which some have). They basically get off to it because of their gay fetishes. I am not saying ALL women do that, but there is a few, especially in small circles. Funny, that's more likely to be done by women for the pleasure of men. I've never seen, nor heard of (until you mentioned it) two "straight" guys putting on a show for women. Two "straight" women putting on a show for men, that's different, and "normal" (patriarchy and all that). But, would those men go and put on a show in the playground? Nope, 'cause they would get beaten up. They aren't "being" "gay" anyway, putting on a show does not change your sexuality.
Does this make them more popular with men? Hell no, most men are going to beat those kids up senseless and even WORSE, which isn't even a humane thing to do. And if you are going to call me sexist based on this judgement, go right ahead, women are the same as everyone else. I am sure there are even some men who have gay fetishes.I think I covered this above.


If you're going to call my views fucked up, go right ahead. I happen to fall under the category of transgender (which I didn't want to state in this forum due to fear of discrimination on this forum) and I even think they shouldn't be expressed the way they are in western society today. If media and people I have described above are going to make me look so bad that people are going to think of me as a sick twisted horrific person, then you'll be darn right assured I don't want to be out in the open. I honestly really don't care if you are trans* or otherwise queer. I would hope that you would not receive any discrimination from this forum because of it. (Just like I would hope that POC would not receive discrimination because of that.)
If the media makes queer people look "sick twisted horrific", then surely that is a problem with the media, rather than with queer people. And damn right it's why so many queer people don't want to be open about who they are.
It's gone too far, in my opinion, and if that is &quot;fucked up&quot; to you, then so be it, I don't really care what your views on myself are, I just want equal oppurtunities for people of all races and sexualities, but it is damn well NOT going to happen if media and certain people keep making them out the way they are doing so today.
I honestly am not sure where you are going. You seemed, in the posts above mine, to be complaining about how trans* and other queer people acted. And I was saying, screw that attitude, yay for folk who are willing to be open! (And I understand why people don't want to be open.)
Now you seem to be saying that the media is the problem. Yes, I agree.
You got to be kidding me, did you even understand a word I said? I meant, no one, no race, no sexuality, should have more or less than another. It should all be equal. Do you think african-americans need more treatment than say, an asian? Or a homosexual? In either case, some of the leagues fighting for these rights are corrupted. Some of them always want more money, or more rights, and it even leads into elitism. And if you want to get into it, african-americans go through the same things true homosexual and transsexual minorities due, except media portays them as gangsters or are pro-violence, when I know many african-americans who are just like everyone else you would meet. But, this isn't about that, back on topic.. Yeah, the point was that you wanted to treat everyone equally. I was saying that because of discrimination and disadvantage, it makes sense to use affirmative action to combat this discrimination and disadvantage.
I was using the example of black people who can't go to college cause of not having enough cash. i think they deserve scholarships if cash is the only thing holding them back.

And I think that other forms of affirmative action are equally important. I'm not sure how that would work when it comes to trans* folk, or gay folk, but ... Yeah, we don't treat everyone equally, cause not everyone is treated equally by society. We don't pretend that everyone is equal, we fight to bring those that aren't equal up to the level of everyone else, by giving them special assistance and help.

That's all I was trying to say.

[ZeroNowhere]

Yeah, the point was that you wanted to treat everyone equally. I was saying that because of discrimination and disadvantage, it makes sense to use affirmative action to combat this discrimination and disadvantage.
I was using the example of black people who can't go to college cause of not having enough cash. i think they deserve scholarships if cash is the only thing holding them back. They did not say anything about socioeconomic status, they were talking about race and sexuality.

[Dr Mindbender]

This is not an acceptable attitude. Modify your language.

No fucking way was that worth an infraction but coming from you that sort of takes the sting out.

I called someone out on their latent transphobia, an issue on which you posted at length once that you would provide 'no caveat' to offenders. Your inconsistency and hypocrisy is laughable.

Its a relief that some of the more level headed staff support my ''unacceptable'' attitude.

I suppose next calling racists and homophobes dickheads will be an infractable offense also.


EDIT: Apparently not only is TAT now indifferent to transphobia, he casually supports it. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/converse.php?u=8425&u2=22750)

[praxis1966]

and you're sure its not for the sake of puritanism?

I'd never pretend to speak for any member without consulting them first, but in Raisa's defense I will say this. I know her pretty well and there's not a puritanical bone in the woman's body, so I'm sure she's being honest. You'll just have to trust me on this one.

[JoyDivision]

MindBender

This may get me banned, but so be it.

latent transphobia?

The number 1 cause of discrimination and oppression of people with abnormal psychological traits is to deny that anything is happening. I've seen it in cousins with down syndrome, Aunts with depression, and deaf friends. People don't understand what's going on, they don't understand why they are the way they are, so they're afraid of it and don't know how to deal with it. All it took for my deaf friend to be accepted in grade school was for the school to explain to everyone why people are deaf, what exactly being deaf means, and what sign language is. The point is that he is different, but that is just fine.

http://www.webmd.com/sex/gender-identity-disorder


The exact cause of gender identity disorder is not known, but several theories exist. These theories suggest that the disorder may be caused by genetic (chromosomal) abnormalities, hormone imbalances during fetal and childhood development, defects in normal human bonding and child rearing, or a combination of these factors.Likewise, I think the best thing we can do for transexual people is to help people understand what exactly it means, and what are the mechanisms that cause it, weather those are biological or social. Obviously there is a tension between their identity and their body, obviously this tension doesn't occur in the average human, obviously this tension is traumatic, and obviously something out of the ordinary is causing it. The act of identifying, exploring, and ultimately understanding this is identical to the act of preventing discrimination and oppression.
Likewise, acting like nothing is wrong when you cannot identify with your own body is identical to perpetuating discrimination, ignorance, and oppression.



http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90229789


Clinically, I would say yes. I've seen many kids over the years present with all the indicators of GID, and in terms of my quantitative measures they're very extreme. But the follow-up studies I've done, and others too, show [that] a substantial majority of kids seen for GID in childhood show desistance — that is, when they're older they don't want to be the other sex. We just published a study of 25 girls we first saw in childhood and found that only 12 percent seem to have persistent gender dysphoria when they're older. We find similar rates of persistence in boys.Certainly having GID people be able to identify with their own body is perferable to giving the surgery. Your approach to this question does not allow for such things, and that is a serious problem.

Anyway, that's all I want to say, so don't expect a response.

[The Feral Underclass]

The number 1 cause of discrimination and oppression of people with abnormal psychological traits is to deny that anything is happening. I've seen it in cousins with down syndrome, Aunts with depression, and deaf friends.

Since when have down syndrome and deafness been constituted as abnormal psychological traits?

[The Feral Underclass]

EDIT: Apparently not only is TAT now indifferent to transphobia, he casually supports it. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/converse.php?u=8425&u2=22750)

I'm assuming that your sanctimonious attitude is complimenting some extensive political activity that actually does something notable to challenge homophobia and transphobia in the lives of working class people? Your defence of transsexuality extends beyond this forum, right? Could you explain to all of us what concrete steps you are actually taking? I'm certainly interested to know.

[Jazzratt]

Since when have down syndrome and deafness been constituted as abnormal psychological traits?

You can suffer hysterical blindness in times of severe psychological trauma, perhaps the same holds true of deafness. I doubt, however, that you can get hysterical downs.

Anyway I wouldn't bother replying since JD has said he's going to stop posting in this thread. I don't see any pressing reason to have him come back, certainly not in his contributions.

[JoyDivision]

I return only for the clarification of terms.


Since when have down syndrome and deafness been constituted as abnormal psychological traits?

Abnormal psychology does not have to mean mental disorder, it simply means unusual patterns of behavior and thought. For example, A super genius person can be classified as having abnormal psychology, and so can someone with a photographic memory. Abnormal psychology itself neither denotes something good or bad, only something out of the oridinary.

[RedAnarchist]

I return only for the clarification of terms.



LOL, out of all that you choose to focus on this trivial thing. Abnormal psychology does not have to mean mental disorder, it simply means unusual patterns of behavior and thought. For example, A super genius person can be classified as having abnormal psychology, and so can someone with a photographic memory. Abnormal psychology itself neither denotes something good or bad, only something out of the oridinary.

So how do Downs and deafness fit into that definition?

[The Feral Underclass]

LOL, out of all that you choose to focus on this trivial thing.

You'd have to say something of palpable substance to qualify for my complete attention. As you have consistently talked utter shit throughout this discussion, I felt compelled to highlight this particular piece of it.

You can go away now.

[JoyDivision]

So how do Downs and deafness fit into that definition?

Because they are both things that result in behavior and/or thought that is out of the ordinary.

Deaf people develop differently than normal because they interact with their environment differently. i.e. they don't interact via hearing, and this substantially changes social development and how they think. Ever talk to a deaf person about thinking with sign language?

Likewise, people with down syndrome have varying degrees of emotional incompetence and cognitive limitations that are out of the ordinary.

[Dr Mindbender]

I'm assuming that your sanctimonious attitude is complimenting some extensive political activity that actually does something notable to challenge homophobia and transphobia in the lives of working class people? Your defence of transsexuality extends beyond this forum, right? Could you explain to all of us what concrete steps you are actually taking? I'm certainly interested to know.

Im assuming that your sanctimonius attitude is derived from someone who knows fuck all about the context of living in a reactionist statelet dominated by theocrats recovering from 40 years of religious war. Gays and TG people here are regularly beaten and murdered in Northern Ireland, seldomly with much or any empathy from the local population. So you can take your holier than thou tone and stick it where the sun don't shine.

and as for my stake on the matter, i've pm'ed you the answer. Feel free to blush awkwardly and walk away.

[The Feral Underclass]

Im assuming that your santicmonius attitude is derived from someone who knows fuck all about the context of living in a reactionist statelet dominated by theocrats recovering from 40 years of religious war. Gays and TG people here are regularly beaten and murdered in Northern Ireland, seldomly with much or any empathy from the local population. So you can take your holier than thou tone and stick it where the sun don't shine.

and as for my stake on the matter, i've pm'ed you the answer. Feel free to blush awkwardly and walk away.

I'll take that as meaning you don't do anything beyond this forum, then.

Let's be clear here. You're dismissing me, a gay, anti-homophobia and anti-transphobia activist who routinely campaigns and struggles against prejudice, not just in his own life, but in the lives of others too, just because I objected to your aggressive, shitty attitude. Not only that, but you accuse me of supporting transphobia.

You would do well to learn how to interact with disagreement better than this.

[Dr Mindbender]

I'll take that as meaning you don't do anything beyond this forum, then.

Its easy to hide behind a computer monitor and cowardly chastise people without acknowledging or trying to understand the conditions in which they live.

I thought youd be more empathetic towards a comrade living under the boot of religious bigots and armed fascist groups who shoot first and ask questions later. Obviously not. My hesitation to run around paramilitary estates in a dress with a placard makes me the coward.

Well after you, show me how easy its done.


Let's be clear here. You're dismissing me, a gay, anti-homophobia and anti-transphobia activist who routinely campaigns and struggles against prejudice, not just in his own life, but in the lives of others too, just because I objected to your aggressive, shitty attitude.
I'm dismissing you because you billigerently infracted me for calling out someone on their crap attitude on the matter and when i reproached you on the matter you failed to give a satisfactory reply for why you did this.

I dont know why you keep banging on about your political activity. It takes a lot less courage when you enjoy the comparitively progressive atmosphere of mainland britain. Do it over here and show me how brave you are.

[cska]

Ok, I figured that this topic would resurface in some way or another now that the old thread has been closed (at 666 posts!)

This is a reminder to KEEP IT CIVIL.

There will be no witch hunting, no demands on users to show prove their leftist credentials by declaring intent to date a transsexual.

Seriously, KEEP IT CIVIL. If this topic devolves into a flamewar, it may be closed.

Good job guys...

[The Feral Underclass]

Mindbender,

I'm not trying to compete with you, nor do I really care about your infraction. I am merely pointing out the ludicrousness and downright offensive nature of your fallacious assertion that I support transphobia. It's based on nothing but the fact I have disagreed with your attitude and Khad's characterisation of what constitutes a flame. If these supremely trivial things are what, in your mind, qualify support for transphobia, then you have very serious analytical issues. If you want to make claims like that, then be prepared to put your money where your mouth is!

[Dr Mindbender]

Mindbender,

I'm not trying to compete with you, nor do I really care about your infraction. I am merely pointing out the ludicrousness and downright offensive nature of your fallacious assertion that I support transphobia. It's based on nothing but the fact I have disagreed with your attitude and Khad's characterisation of what constitutes a flame. If these supremely trivial things are what, in your mind, qualify support for transphobia, then you have very serious analytical issues. If you want to make claims like that, then be prepared to put your money where your mouth is!

The rub of it is this is more to do with your craven hypocrisy than any other matter. Im not prepared to name names but ive been given anecodotal cases of occasions on which you yourself dished out the insult ''dickhead'' and wholesally dished out neg reps whenever you were challenged on this.

Its inconsistencies like this that makes people question your ability to admin and your inability to back down when you're blatantly in the wrong makes things worse for yourself.

[Il Medico]

I haven't been really paying attention to this whole thing (because I've been busy irl) but from what I've seen; I am utterly discombobulated. Apparently, the mod who has said more than questionable things in the past on this issue, gives this asshole a PM warning, then the admin who in the past has been one of the only people besides Dr. Mind and me to seem to really give a shit about transphobia on this site questions his warning and then gives someone an infraction for calling the bigot in question an ass? WTF???

The Doctorhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/confused1.gif
__________________

[The Feral Underclass]

The rub of it is this is more to do with your craven hypocrisy than any other matter. Im not prepared to name names but ive been given anecodotal cases of occasions on which you yourself dished out the insult ''dickhead'' and wholesally dished out neg reps whenever you were challenged on this.

And I was reprimanded for it, as should you be.


Its inconsistencies like this that makes people question your ability to admin and your inability to back down when you're blatantly in the wrong makes things worse for yourself.If we're going to talk inconsistencies, then why is it I get reprimanded but you don't?

But I don't really care about any of that, or your opinions on me as an admin. Those things are not important (although clearly you think they are). What I care about is being accused of supporting transphobia, which is founded on nothing more than my issuing you with a warning point, which I find utterly ridiculous.

[Foldered]

Gender is a social construction and sexuality can (and should be) understood on similar terms. The reason why heterosexual sex is "natural" is because it is hegemonic.
And the trangender=homosexual debate is easy to debunk; I know someone in the process of a sex change (male to female) that is into women.
If you're interested in this sort of stuff, I recommend looking into Gayle Rubin. I don't know how much work she does with transgender specifically, but she has some very interesting perspective on sex and sexuality in Western society. I'm specifically referring to her article "Thinking Sex."

EDIT: I didn't realize this thread was so long, so I'm not sure how valid my comments are. Sorry.

[Jazzratt]

Gender is a social construction and sexuality can (and should be) understood on similar terms. The reason why heterosexual sex is "natural" is because it is hegemonic.
And the trangender=homosexual debate is easy to debunk; I know someone in the process of a sex change (male to female) that is into women.
If you're interested in this sort of stuff, I recommend looking into Gayle Rubin. I don't know how much work she does with transgender specifically, but she has some very interesting perspective on sex and sexuality in Western society. I'm specifically referring to her article "Thinking Sex."

EDIT: I didn't realize this thread was so long, so I'm not sure how valid my comments are. Sorry.

Your response is perfectly valid since most of this thread is a back and forth over moderating choices.

[JoyDivision]

You'd have to say something of palpable substance to qualify for my complete attention. As you have consistently talked utter shit throughout this discussion, I felt compelled to highlight this particular piece of it.

You can go away now.

Try this:

There is a simple way to settle the issue of reassignment, and that is, are people who have it happier after the surgery in the long run?

Well, does anyone have any data on weather post operation transsexuals are happier than pre-operation transsexuals? Nope, because the data doesn't exist. Why doesn't the data exist? Because the people performing these operations and counseling these operations apparently do not care about their patients well being.

What does this indicate? This indicates a certain amount of exploitation given that this is a very major surgery, and all other major surgery's have significant amounts of such data.

I don't know how anyone can possibly advocate for it's universal acceptance so vehemently, and call anyone that questions it a bigot, when we simply do not know if it is a benefit or a negative for the transgendered community over the long run.

If, however, as is often the case, it is a benefit for some and a negative for others, it must be investigated at all possible costs why this is the case. What about some people make it a benefit, and what about other people make it a negative. Glossing over dissenting opinions, and straight up attacking people who question the surgery and it's motivations paints it as a universal benefit and does not allow any room for this to be investigated. As such, it is detrimental to the trans community.

[Dr Mindbender]

And I was reprimanded for it, as should you be.

If we're going to talk inconsistencies, then why is it I get reprimanded but you don't?


Theres quite a large difference in context when we're calling people out on shitty reactionary things they have said as opposed to wantonly throwing out ad hominems because it makes you feel bigger. With you you seem to think you have a carte blanche to be as obtuse and as provocative as you like when you like because of your red name.

[h0m0revolutionary]

This indicates a certain amount of exploitation given that this is a very major surgery, and all other major surgery's have significant amounts of such data.

I don't know how anyone can possibly advocate for it's universal acceptance so vehemently, and call anyone that questions it a bigot, when we simply do not know if it is a benefit or a negative for the transgendered community over the long run.

Go find me a trans-rights group which opposes sex-reassignment surgery..

For each insignificant single member 'group' you find i'll show you ten trans-rights group who recognise the immeasurable validation sex-reassignment surgery can offer to trans people and who appreciate the pains and complexities of gender dysphoria much better than you.

On this matter I defer to trans groups, who overwhelmingly congregate in defense of the gain that is sex-reassignment surgery. I suggest you do the same.

[Aeval]

Well, does anyone have any data on weather post operation transsexuals are happier than pre-operation transsexuals? Nope, because the data doesn't exist. Why doesn't the data exist? Because the people performing these operations and counseling these operations apparently do not care about their patients well being.



That data does exist.

I don't have my references to hand as I'm reading this off a powerpoint, and the presentation I was giving was specifically on kids who were allowed to start gender reassignment therapy before as oppose to after puberty, but the findings were that they were 3 times as likely to suffer depression and 5 times as likely to attempt suicide if they weren't allowed the surgery and/or hormones as they were when they were given that option. Also, less than 1% regret the surgery later on in life.

[005]

***(This is addressed to no-one in particular, nor am I accusing anyone of this, merely raising thoughts in my mind about this topic which I think are relevant).***

What about if a black male came out on this forum and said ‘I’m not a criminal, I vote Republican, I hate rap music, I can’t dance or play basketball, I bleach my skin and dye my hair blonde. I feel white, I’m a white man.’

Would leftists here be okay with supporting that? Would leftists here agree that he’s actually a white man trapped in a black man’s body? Why not?

Why’s it acceptable to talk about having the ‘mind of a female’, ‘feeling like a woman’, yet totally unacceptable for someone to say that they feel like a ‘white man’ (or conversely, for someone who likes gangster rap to say that they identify as a black man)?

But gender is just as much as a social construct as race! The physical attributes of the individual are the biological traits, their race is a socially constructed paradigm based upon salient physical attributes. Sex is the physical, biological trait, whereas gender is the socially constructed equivalent of race.

Surely the above isn’t a case of a 'white man being trapped' in a black man’s body, but rather a case of stereotypes being wrong (racist in this case) or inadequate, ignoring the scope of individuality possible in humans? :confused:

And when someone says that they ‘feel like a woman’, and attempt to conform to the stereotypical notions of what is defined as ‘womanhood’, not only may they be internalizing those gender stereotypes but acting in a manner which is oppressive to trans and non-trans women by continuing to perpetuate a narrow definition of what it means to be female (or male, as the case may be).

‘I don’t like playing sports, I like playing with dolls and dressing up’ translates to a restrictive & limiting gender role on not only what girls are supposed to enjoy, but also what boys aren’t supposed to!

Its easier to answer such a problem not by questioning the validity of those gender stereotypes as we should be doing, but through surgery and sex reassignment. Surely, its in contradiction to rely on gender stereotypes & their reactionary consequences in defence of trans people whilst at the same time argue for the abolishment of gender?

[RedAnarchist]

***(This is addressed to no-one in particular, nor am I accusing anyone of this, merely raising thoughts in my mind about this topic which I think are relevant).***

What about if a black male came out on this forum and said ‘I’m not a criminal, I vote Republican, I hate rap music, I can’t dance or play basketball, I bleach my skin and dye my hair blonde. I feel white, I’m a white man.’

Would leftists here be okay with supporting that? Would leftists here agree that he’s actually a white man trapped in a black man’s body? Why not?

Why’s it acceptable to talk about having the ‘mind of a female’, ‘feeling like a woman’, yet totally unacceptable for someone to say that they feel like a ‘white man’ (or conversely, for someone who likes gangster rap to say that they identify as a black man)?

But gender is just as much as a social construct as race! The physical attributes of the individual are the biological traits, their race is a socially constructed paradigm based upon salient physical attributes. Sex is the physical, biological trait, whereas gender is the socially constructed equivalent of race.

Surely the above isn’t a case of a 'white man being trapped' in a black man’s body, but rather a case of stereotypes being wrong (racist in this case) or inadequate, ignoring the scope of individuality possible in humans? :confused:

And when someone says that they ‘feel like a woman’, and attempt to conform to the stereotypical notions of what is defined as ‘womanhood’, not only may they be internalizing those gender stereotypes but acting in a manner which is oppressive to trans and non-trans women by continuing to perpetuate a narrow definition of what it means to be female (or male, as the case may be).

‘I don’t like playing sports, I like playing with dolls and dressing up’ translates to a restrictive & limiting gender role on not only what girls are supposed to enjoy, but also what boys aren’t supposed to!

Its easier to answer such a problem not by questioning the validity of those gender stereotypes as we should be doing, but through surgery and sex reassignment. Surely, its in contradiction to rely on gender stereotypes & their reactionary consequences in defence of trans people whilst at the same time argue for the abolishment of gender?

I'll ban you, Marsella, but leave this post alone so people who want to answer it can do so.

[005]

Lucy had been aware of her gender identity crisis since early childhood.

That sets in my mind that gender identity is a psychological trait acquired from birth more than it is a culturally learned one. The reason why you generally only see adults going for the process is the stigma surrounding the procedure.

Do you really believe children are as conscious of 'gender conformity' on nearly as many levels as adults?

This is the most horribly sexist and bigoted thing that anyone has said in this thread, and you have the nerve to call other bigots. :rolleyes:

Gender is a social construct. As Simone De Beauvoir once wrote 'One is not born a woman, one becomes a woman.'

Essentially you are saying that how women and men behave isn't a matter of the standards of society which shape us, but rather has to do with the mind! You've reduced, like the worst bigots, the social role of woman to one of psychology.

Fuck you.

[RedAnarchist]

This is the most horribly sexist and bigoted thing that anyone has said in this thread, and you have the nerve to call other bigots. :rolleyes:

Gender is a social construct. As Simone De Beauvoir once wrote 'One is not born a woman, one becomes a woman.'

Essentially you are saying that how women and men behave isn't a matter of the standards of society which shape us, but rather has to do with the mind! You've reduced, like the worst bigots, the social role of woman to one of psychology.

Fuck you.

Sounds like someone never heard of FtM transmen.

[JoyDivision]

I don't have my references to hand as I'm reading this off a powerpoint, and the presentation I was giving was specifically on kids who were allowed to start gender reassignment therapy before as oppose to after puberty, but the findings were that they were 3 times as likely to suffer depression and 5 times as likely to attempt suicide if they weren't allowed the surgery and/or hormones as they were when they were given that option. Also, less than 1% regret the surgery later on in life.

Good god, dude, children that are pre-puberty are supposed to be capable of making such a decision. Is the transgendered community generally Okay with this? Anyway, give us the data source when you have the time.


Go find me a trans-rights group which opposes sex-reassignment surgery..


I'm not advocating opposition to the surgery right out, nor would I under any circumstances for any topic defer to a group if I could get the individuals who that group represents.

But, I did google a few groups, and they, with varying degrees of emphasis, recommened psycholgoical therapy, followed by hormone therapy. And then surgery, but the surgery was always conditioned as not being right for everyone. They suggested that the person needs to do soul searching ect. ect. before having the procedure to ensure that this is infact what the person wants, and that the person wants it for the right reasons.

Seems closer to what I was saying than what you guys are saying.

[Aeval]

Good god, dude, children that are pre-puberty are supposed to be capable of making such a decision. Is the transgendered community generally Okay with this? Anyway, give us the data source when you have the time.


In most countries you have to legally be 18 to have surgery and 16 to have hormones, though some people have started hormones earlier (or taking hormone blocking drugs) and in Germany one girl was allowed to have surgery at 16. I presume she was the only one as the media got quite excited about it.

Sadly I seem to have deleted all my notes so I've only got what's on the handouts and powerpoint, however, it was from the Cohen-Kettenis and Goozen study, where they gave pre-pubescent children (trans ones obviously, not just kids at random!) hormone blocking medicine which stopped them going through the wrong puberty, then at 16 these kids could start taking the hormones for the other sex. This has the advantage that they a) don't go through the wrong puberty, something that can be quite psychologically damaging, and b) they don't get any secondary sex characteristics (so facial hair, adam's apple, broader shoulders, deeper voice etc in the case of transwomen and breasts, wider hips etc in the case of transmen). This means that later on in life they don't have to have corrective surgery on these things (or with things like having a deeper voice, pretty much just put up with it)

Their results and conclusions were:


RESULTS: Postoperatively the group was no longer gender-dysphoric; they scored in the normal range with respect to a number of different psychological measures and they were socially functioning quite well. Not a single subject expressed feelings of regret concerning the decision to undergo sex reassignment. CONCLUSIONS: Starting the sex reassignment procedure before adulthood results in favorable postoperative functioning, provided that careful diagnosis takes place in a specialized gender team and that the criteria for starting the procedure early are stringent.

They also pointed out that in terms of minimising seconday sex characteristics the best option would be (for transwomen) taking a small amount of oestrogen from the age of 9, followed by castration just before puberty, then raising the amount of oestrogen afterwards as this would not only halt the male puberty but also give them a female one, the only difference really would be that they wouldn't get periods. This website (http://transwoman.tripod.com/young.htm) is pretty useful, if poorly laid out, and has a nice table comparing the effects of hormone treatment before and after puberty.

That website also states that:


According to one study, two thirds of transsexual boys are aware that they belong to the opposite sex and exhibit such behaviour" by age 5, and 77% by age 10.

This plus anecdotal evidence that I'm sure you can google suggests that pre-pubescent children are pretty aware of what they are or are not. This is not to say that every little boy who says he's a girl and likes putting make-up on should start treatment just because, but children aren't stupid, I mean, there are plenty of girls who hate dresses and love sport and so on and most of them don't turn around and say they are boys, so there must be a difference between children who don't like activities which are "typical" for their gender and those who say they are the other gender.
Oh and, the links on the site don't work but they are referring to studies by Walinder.

Here are some links to abstracts from Cohen-Kettenis and Goozen's study (http://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9879847), as well as their follow-up study (http://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9031580).

Also, I'm not sure if the percentage I said about those who later regretted the treatment was for transwomen or transmen, as older studies seem to confuse the two terms. In any case here are the results for both:


I refer to a paper written by Dr. Friedemann Pfafflin, a psychiatrist at Ulm University Clinic in Germany, Regrets after Sex Reassignment Surgery, in which he summarises data from follow-up literature of the last 30 years, as well as his own clinical data on nearly 300 men and women after GRS. He estimated the number of patients who regretted having surgery. Rather surprisingly they amount to less than 1% in Trans men, and 1-2% in Trans women.

and here (http://www.gender.org.uk/conf/2002/reid22.htm) is where I found that.

[008]

I mean, the very claim that gender is 'psychologically inherent' and 'acquired from birth' is nothing more than sexist essentialism dressed up in psuedo-science. Is it psychologically inherent that women are ‘more emotional’, that women inherently prefer pink, that we inherently prefer dresses, that we inherently are unequal to men? Why do people think that such things are a trait ‘inhereted from birth?’ Why the fuck is that sort of bigotry accepted, but if someone said that black people are inherently more prone to crime, or used any sort of pseduo-scientific argument that x race is inherently inferior, they would be banned outright?

Relying on essentialist bullshit leads to reactionary stances. It is similar to how some claim that homosexuality is ‘natural’ and thus that homosexuals ‘can’t help it’ and hence shouldn’t face discrimination based on something they can’t freely choose of their own individual will (but hey, if they could choose their sexuality, then they should face discrimination)! Fuck that argument and fuck those who use it. There is no ‘natural’ gender (such a term is a total oxymoron; gender is social. On that very basis that gender is socially constructed we should defend the rights of all those to be able to move beyond the social limits imposed by consequence of them being a certain sex.

[008]

Sounds like someone never heard of FtM transmen. The fuck are you talking about? How does that have any relationship to what I was arguing against? And yes, I used the example 'One is not born a woman, one becomes a woman' but I could have just as well used the phrase 'One is not born a man, one becomes a man' and I could have just as well said 'You've reduced, like the worst bigots, the social role of men to one of psychology.' The argument would remain the same; that such gender essentialism undermines the very basis of feminism which proclaims that our social roles are not biologically determined, and incidentally since its women who suffer the most from such gender essentialism, I'm fucking well justified in using women as the sole example.

[RedAnarchist]

The fuck are you talking about? How does that have any relationship to what I was arguing against? And yes, I used the example 'One is not born a woman, one becomes a woman' but I could have just as well used the phrase 'One is not born a man, one becomes a man' and I could have just as well said 'You've reduced, like the worst bigots, the social role of men to one of psychology.' The argument would remain the same; that such gender essentialism undermines the very basis of feminism which proclaims that our social roles are not biologically determined, and incidentally since its women who suffer the most from such gender essentialism, I'm fucking well justified in using women as the sole example.

Fair enough, it's that your post seemed to omit FtMs, and many transphobes don't even believe they exist, assuming that TS people are always transwomen.

[counterblast]

Anyways, regarding the topic, I know plenty of guys that put on a show of being gay (don't know many girls, so I wouldn't know about them), and they only help perpetuate a lot of stupid stereotypes about homosexuals. They take what is something natural and degrade it into something that seems pervert.

What the fuck.

No, just no.

It is heterosexist society that makes acting flamboyant a bad thing.

Gay people absolutely should not have to conform to heterosexual notions of "natural". And uniquely "gay" mannerisms and dialect are NOT pervert.

They are a response to living in a homophobic culture. Most things we associate with "gayness" developed in the 1930s-1960s as a way to identify one another in a very sexually repressive culture.

And the idea that acting "gay" (ie: FEMININE) is a bad thing, reeks with machismo nonsense.

Besides, the only way to abolish racial/sexual stereotypes is to ignore them completely and act however you want to act. Otherwise your replace one stereotype only to have it replaced with another.

You call yourself an ally?

If those "guys you know" want to dress in pink leotards, speak with a lisp, sing Carmen Miranda songs, flagging a gay hanky-coded hankerchief in their back pockets, what difference does it make?

[counterblast]

They did not say anything about socioeconomic status, they were talking about race and sexuality.

You seem to be under the misconception that the three are mutually exclusive.

[counterblast]

I'll take that as meaning you don't do anything beyond this forum, then.

Let's be clear here. You're dismissing me, a gay, anti-homophobia and anti-transphobia activist who routinely campaigns and struggles against prejudice, not just in his own life, but in the lives of others too, just because I objected to your aggressive, shitty attitude. Not only that, but you accuse me of supporting transphobia.

You would do well to learn how to interact with disagreement better than this.

Your credentials as a "gay person" or "gay/trans activist" are irrelevant.

The issue is why you're defending Joy Division, and his assertion that trans people are self-mutilating psychological nutcases.

Lets be clear that I find khad to be a really abhorrent. He's said some incredibly misogynist things in the past, and if he'd have recieved a warning over some of the things he said in the sex worker topic over in the Women's Issues subforum or others, I would not complain.

But a warning for making the Discrimination forum safer for trans people? Ridiculous.

Why not let people who support Eugenics and the theory that non-white people have smaller brains, while you're at it?

[cska]

What the fuck.

No, just no.

It is heterosexist society that makes acting flamboyant a bad thing.

Gay people absolutely should not have to conform to heterosexual notions of "natural". And uniquely "gay" mannerisms and dialect are NOT pervert.

They are a response to living in a homophobic culture. Most things we associate with "gayness" developed in the 1930s-1960s as a way to identify one another in a very sexually repressive culture.

And the idea that acting "gay" (ie: FEMININE) is a bad thing, reeks with machismo nonsense.

Some white people will make fun of my race by acting like fools and using every stereotype in the book. I am deeply offended by that. Likewise, my previous roommate, who was openly gay, did not fall into any of these stereotypes, and was offended by people who pretended gayness and used such stereotypes. I'm not saying people can't act like that, but people shouldn't equate acting like that with being gay.


Besides, the only way to abolish racial/sexual stereotypes is to ignore them completely and act however you want to act. Otherwise your replace one stereotype only to have it replaced with another.

You nailed it here. People should ignore stereotypes, which is something that people who pretend to be gay don't.


You call yourself an ally?

If those "guys you know" want to dress in pink leotards, speak with a lisp, sing Carmen Miranda songs, flagging a gay hanky-coded hankerchief in their back pockets, what difference does it make?

The problem is that they are equating this behavior with being gay. That, and the smaller problem that flagging a gay hanky-coded hankerchief might be annoying to gays who are trying to identify real gays...

[punisa]

I've read up to page 4, lots of different arguments splashing around it seems..
but, what exactly is the debate here?

Instead, I'll comment on RedHK's original question(s): "What are most of your views on it? How well do you think it ties in with the communist idea?"

Difference between a transgender and not-transgender person is the same difference with me smoking Marlboro and the other guy smoking Lucky Strike - virtually none.
The only communism I would approve off is the one that would perceive things in the same way.

The only "rule" that needs to be enforced in communism is the one that every grown-up human being capable of working must work.
So, no slacking around boys and girls :p

That being said, everything related to sex,gender and other personal preferences must be allowed. So long as it is not harmful to others (rape etc). Complete freedom of expression is a pillar of a perfect society.

As for transgender people - there is a huge misconception about them these days.
Not all transgender are gay actually, some m2f like and prefer women for example.
Also there is a difference between a transexual and transvestite.
First being the person wanting to physically change sex, and the other just prefers the outside look.
From this foundations, they come in all sorts as non-transgender folks: gays,lesbians,bisexuals,heterosexuals,asexuals..

It just brings in more variety to the community, nothing wrong with that. Personally, I believe it's really good and beneficial.
Being a "dull" non-transgender heterosexual myself, I've always enjoyed the company of people who have different views on gender as well as sexuality then myself.
There is a lot to learn and having a chance to hear a different perspective then your own is great.

Said this, all transgender people fit perfectly into communism.
Even more, they must be self aware and realise that communism is the only true system which can guarantee them a complete freedom.
Naturally, when I say "communism" I refer to a progressive soon-to-be established society, not the socialist experiments of the yestercentury.

LGBT community is doing a good job so far, the only thing I will criticise about them is the fact that majority have little or no interest in politics, at least in system-shift ideas, and are too focused on themselves as a "class".

LGBT freedom under capitalism is a utopia, sooner everyone realizes that - the better.

[Dr Mindbender]

This is the most horribly sexist and bigoted thing that anyone has said in this thread, and you have the nerve to call other bigots. :rolleyes:

Gender is a social construct. As Simone De Beauvoir once wrote 'One is not born a woman, one becomes a woman.'

Essentially you are saying that how women and men behave isn't a matter of the standards of society which shape us, but rather has to do with the mind! You've reduced, like the worst bigots, the social role of woman to one of psychology.

Fuck you.

I understand you cant reply but you can retract your ''fuck you''.

Society (wrongly IMO) bases its pretexts of gender along the lines of biological gender. Psychological and biological gender are not mutually inclusive.

[cska]

Society (wrongly IMO) bases its pretexts of gender along the lines of biological gender. Psychological and biological gender are not mutually inclusive.

Thus, gender (defined as the expected behavior based on biological sex) is a social construct.

[counterblast]

***(This is addressed to no-one in particular, nor am I accusing anyone of this, merely raising thoughts in my mind about this topic which I think are relevant).***

What about if a black male came out on this forum and said ‘I’m not a criminal, I vote Republican, I hate rap music, I can’t dance or play basketball, I bleach my skin and dye my hair blonde. I feel white, I’m a white man.’

Would leftists here be okay with supporting that? Would leftists here agree that he’s actually a white man trapped in a black man’s body? Why not?


this post is misleading, because it throws irrelevent social factors into the mix as a sort of strawman. if someone wants to change their complexion or hormones/genetalia, i dont see why any leftist would care. obviously there are very clear reasons a leftist would care if someone wants to become a republican or to suggest dolls are inherently feminine.

just because you want to change your sex, doesnt mean you also want to uphold traditional notions of femininity.

[black magick hustla]

just because you want to change your sex, doesnt mean you also want to uphold traditional notions of femininity.

i have to wonder though. how many mtf transgenders dont hold traditional notions of feminity? tbh in the grand sceme of things i dont really care. but it does bother me a bit to think about the ideological contexts of this kind of things

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

i have to wonder though. how many mtf transgenders dont hold traditional notions of feminity? tbh in the grand sceme of things i dont really care. but it does bother me a bit to think about the ideological contexts of this kind of things

Quite a few I have encountered do actually hold onto traditional notions of femininity, not that these are many, but other than myself I really haven't come across personally any that do not.

I wonder if there have been any statistical studies or even simple polls as to ideological and social preferences of transgenders?

[000]

this post is misleading, because it throws irrelevent social factors into the mix as a sort of strawman.

The reasons and justifications for the hypothetical white man trapped in a black man’s body were just as spurious and ridiculous as the ones given by defenders of transgender politics, whether it’s the ‘I like pink, I must have a pink/girl’s mind’ bullshit, or whether its dressed up in fancy medical syndromes or disorders.

Those are the strawmen. An excuse for ignoring the thousands of years of sexism entrenched in society, whilst simultaneously ideologically propping it up. It can all burn.


if someone wants to change their complexion or hormones/genetalia, i dont see why any leftist would care.

Its more to do with the (1) the reasons behind why someone would want to change their hormones and genetalia/whatever and (2) the bullshit politics and essentialist nonsense that is used to justify such a change. Yes, a ‘leftist’ should care if a black woman wants to bleach her skin, yes a ‘leftist’ should care if an Asian woman wants to have eyelid surgery to develop rounder eyes. We care because we recognize the racist underpinnings of such changes (*of course, I’d never condemn those who undertook such changes, just like I would never condemn anyone who wanted to change their sex, but I’d be strongly opposed to anyone who attempted to rationalize such changes with essentialist reaction). But unlike the case of the black woman wanting to bleach her skin, or the woman who wants to have plastic surgery, no-one appeals to the inate psychology of the individual to justify it.

The difference between the white man being trapped in the black man’s body narrative versus the woman being trapped in a man’s body narrative, is that the former is clearly understood to be racist and, so far as this forum audience is concerned, is taboo. Whilst its unacceptable to equate the stereotype of a certain race with what defines that race, its still acceptable in regards to gender. I.e. whilst its unacceptable (and rightly so) to talk about how being black defines that person as lazy, its still culturally acceptable to talk about how being a woman defines that person as being timid or whatever feminine quality you so desire. Which brings us to the question of how exactly a person would ‘feel’ like their self, ‘soul’ or mind or whatever is different from their body; by the very nature of that question, it would assume,that gender ‘is in the mind’ or is an a priori subject. That's fundamentally unMarxist and unmaterialistic shit.

Whilst its acceptable to talk about ‘real men’ and ‘real women’ and what encapsulates either category, the only sorts of people who use the phrase ‘a real white man’ or a ‘real black man’ are bigots.

All this demonstrates is that sexism is far more entrenched in society’s ideology versus racism, and that leftists are far more aware of the garbage that is racial or ethnic essentialism, but not the same for gender.

And if ‘leftists’ don’t give a fuck about that, then all I can say is to hell with the left, and its hypocricy on this issue is just another example of its hypocricy in general.


just because you want to change your sex, doesnt mean you also want to uphold traditional notions of femininity. And in the real world someone doesn’t just have a sex change for the heck of it, because they decide spontaneously that they’d like a cock, but because they feel that in order to change their gender identity they need to change their sex; so its an even more cruder appeal to biology, as it basis itself on the existence/non-existence of a ****. At least crossdressers don’t feel the need to modify their body to feel content in wearing a skirt. If someone wants to ‘disobey’ traditional notions of feminity or masculinity, there is no requirement for them to modify their body, because leftists fundamentally understand that gender is fluid & should support those wanting to move beyond gender stereotypes.

[Foldered]

And in the real world someone doesn’t just have a sex change for the heck of it, because they decide spontaneously that they’d like a cock, but because they feel that in order to change their gender identity they need to change their sex
There are two main problems I have with your post:
1) You are dressing up your interpretation as fact. I'm not sure I believe that someone wouldn't decide spontaneously that they would like a cock.
2) You said the "real world"; please explain to me what the "real world" is.

Also, I'd like to point out that your "and if the left doesn't realize" statements are a little bit narrow; destabalizing and aboloshing dichotomized views of gender, and exposing entrenched sexism in capitalist societies is at the forefront of a lot of leftism.

[000]

I understand you cant reply but you can retract your ''fuck you''.

And you can retract your head from your ass.

(But I understand you can't).


Society (wrongly IMO) bases its pretexts of gender along the lines of biological gender. Psychological and biological gender are not mutually inclusive.

This suggests a serious and reactionary misunderstanding of what gender actually encapsulates. But LOL @ 'psychological' and 'biological' gender. Clearly you haven't understood anything that I've said, or are just content in remaining a conservative moron.

Read a book.

Repeat the process until you're no longer an ignorant technoshit.

[000]

I'm not sure I believe that someone wouldn't decide spontaneously that they would like a cock.

Uh what? You think that *someone* would, wake up & decide, 'yup, I'd like a cock?'

Obviously what motivates someone to have a sex change is quite more nuanced than that ( :ohmy:), but to suggest that such a decisions are typically made in defiance of traditional gender roles is disingenuous at best.


2) You said the "real world"; please explain to me what the "real world" is.

A class society which is sexist and where social pressures & relations have more to do with the fact that someone would like a sex change versus some great radical defiance to gender roles.


Also, I'd like to point out that your "and if the left doesn't realize" statements are a little bit narrow;

Sue me.


destabalizing and aboloshing dichotomized views of gender, and exposing entrenched sexism in capitalist societies is at the forefront of a lot of leftism.

And a lot of the left is on the forefront of capitalist society, so what's a gurl 2 do bby?

:(

[punisa]

A class society which is sexist and where social pressures & relations have more to do with the fact that someone would like a sex change versus some great radical defiance to gender roles.


Topic was about how transgender people relate to communism.
It makes little sense to justify anything while still inside the capitalist system.

You try to relate some other examples, like certain black people wanting to bleach their skin etc..
Um.. who cares? There are even more radical examples, people who have a fetish for amputees and have the urge to cut off one of their limbs (some even do it).

People are strange, once we give them complete freedom of choice and lift every criticism, I bet there will be much more examples from all of these categories.
But you only get one life after all, so hey.. do whatever you wanna do man.
I see no problem here.

All we can do is provide objective information about one's health. Like what possible side-effects could a sex-change operation bring and so on.
Other then that - live and let live.

In essence:
I wanna become a man/woman. OK
I wanna be black/white. OK
I want different eyes. OK
I want to walk on all four. OK
I want to play Rolling Stones on a banjo. OK
I don't want to work ever again. NO WAY

[000]

The only "rule" that needs to be enforced in communism is the one that every grown-up human being capable of working must work.

In essence, it isn't much different from capitalist society then. Nevermind the abolishment of wage labour, nevermind the abolishment of the market! If there is a 'rule' under communism then its, as Marx said: "Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labor of others by means of such appropriations."


Said this, all transgender people fit perfectly into communism.Just like bricks in a wall, huh?



Topic was about how transgender people relate to communism.Discussions expand beyond the original post or question! :ohmy:


It makes little sense to justify anything while still inside the capitalist system.Boring rhetoric. Here's something I'll justify under capitalism: people shouldn't be raped. People shouldn't be murdered. People shouldn't be subject to arbitrary and oppressive discrimination; all things which I think should be justified and enforced within capitalism. Obviously there are limitations as to what can be done *within* capitalism, but to just throw everything away is ridiculous nonsense.


You try to relate some other examples, like certain black people wanting to bleach their skin etc..
Um.. who cares? Only people who want to eliminate racism...


There are even more radical examples, people who have a fetish for amputees and have the urge to cut off one of their limbs (some even do it).And maybe that should tell you there's a difference between a sexual fetish that modifies the body and a modification to the body that is a result of x prejudice.

I mean, I have my ears & belly button pierced. Do you really think that's on the same level as the sort of someone bleaching their skin in order to avoid being persecuted because of being black?

Protip: stop being a liberal and applying a liberal analysis.


People are strange, once we give them complete freedom of choice and lift every criticismLiberal nonsense; 'freedom of choice' has limits defined by other defined rights; you said yourself that you can 'do whatever you wanna do man' (but you still HAVE to work!).


But you only get one life after all, so hey.. do whatever you wanna do man.Yeah bro, pass the bong.


I see no problem here.Yeah bro, pass the joint.




All we can do is provide objective information about one's health. Like what possible side-effects could a sex-change operation bring and so on.
Other then that - live and let live.

In essence:
I wanna become a man/woman. OK
I wanna be black/white. OK
I want different eyes. OK
I want to walk on all four. OK
I want to play Rolling Stones on a banjo. OK
I don't want to work ever again. NO WAY The ones who advocate the importance of work versus enjoyment and social fulfillment, i.e the protestant work ethic, are the ones we're trying to overthrow. Fuck your capitalist mentality. I have a right to be lazy.

In short, stop wasting my time you fucking freak.

[counterblast]

i have to wonder though. how many mtf transgenders dont hold traditional notions of feminity? tbh in the grand sceme of things i dont really care. but it does bother me a bit to think about the ideological contexts of this kind of things

all i can say is most nontrans women fit traditional notions of femininity too. and passing is especially impotant if youre trans, since we live in a rigorously gendered society. i suspect the strict adherence to "feminine roles" has less to do with a desire to live in a binary, and more out of day to day safety. i can wear a flannel shirt and cargo pants and still be percieved as female without harassment, physical assault, or gender misconception; a trans woman does not have that luxury.

also, its worth noting that the three trans women i know who are anarchists, do not fit the trans woman stereotype at all... leading me to believe femininity among trans women is as much social conditioning as it is among cis women, not a biological defect

[Dr Mindbender]

Thus, gender (defined as the expected behavior based on biological sex) is a social construct.

I dont think its that simple. The dynamics of human sexuality and the relationship between our genitals and mind are older than our social constructs. For example, sexually, a pre-trans woman cannot hope to compete with birth women in winning the affections of heterosexual men who have no propensity to find the male genitals attractive or overlookable. The conquering of the predisposition of many heterosexual men who would never regard post trans women as sexual beings in spite of their surgery is a milestone that must be attained. I dont think capitalism or social conditioning can be blamed for these states of affairs. I think its primeval biological programming that predates the socio-political zeitgeist.

Besides which, this is a distraction from the fundamental fact that anyone should have the unalienable and unconditional right to switch biological gender without being made to feel that their choice is wrong or illegitimate.

[Foldered]

I think its primeval biological programming that predates the socio-political zeitgeist.

Are you trying to suggest that heterosexuality is a biological given?

[punisa]

In essence, it isn't much different from capitalist society then. Nevermind the abolishment of wage labour, nevermind the abolishment of the market! If there is a 'rule' under communism then its, as Marx said: "Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labor of others by means of such appropriations."

Umm.. stuff you mentioned like abolishment of wages and market is a precondition for even reaching communism. That goes understood, or perhaps you would like that each post ends with "abolish the wage slavery"?
strange..


Discussions expand beyond the original post or question! :ohmy:And beyond civilized communication apparently..


Boring rhetoric. Here's something I'll justify under capitalism: people shouldn't be raped. People shouldn't be murdered. People shouldn't be subject to arbitrary and oppressive discrimination; all things which I think should be justified and enforced within capitalism. Obviously there are limitations as to what can be done *within* capitalism, but to just throw everything away is ridiculous nonsense. And there you go again, stuff you mention is already understood and to mention each time how rape and murder is bad is very redundant.


Only people who want to eliminate racism... Interesting logical conclusion there.
So - according to you - when I state that within communism people should be free to make choices about their personal look, I'm a racist?
Very interesting indeed.


And maybe that should tell you there's a difference between a sexual fetish that modifies the body and a modification to the body that is a result of x prejudice. Soo.... transgender people are a result of the "x prejudice"?
Another interesting triumph for logic.


I mean, I have my ears & belly button pierced. Do you really think that's on the same level as the sort of someone bleaching their skin in order to avoid being persecuted because of being black?No, that's not on the same level.
First point is you having fun with your body and the second one is... something rather new to me. Black people are bleaching themselves to avoid prosecution?
Perhaps I'm an ignorant south Slavic peasant, but this is the first time I heard about this.


Protip: stop being a liberal and applying a liberal analysis.Yes sir, right away sir.
Should I also tattoo a hammer and a sickle on my forehead for you?


Liberal nonsense; 'freedom of choice' has limits defined by other defined rights; you said yourself that you can 'do whatever you wanna do man' (but you still HAVE to work!). When I said that everyone needs to work I was referring again to communism.
The freedom and "every need provided for" will be given to the workers by the workers.
Work is an essential element of communist system.
But it seems you'd love to bypass that right?



Yeah bro, pass the bong.

Yeah bro, pass the joint.Running out of sensible half-arguments again are we?



The ones who advocate the importance of work versus enjoyment and social fulfillment, i.e the protestant work ethic, are the ones we're trying to overthrow. Fuck your capitalist mentality. I have a right to be lazy.Apparently you also have a right to be ignorant about some basic terminology.


In short, stop wasting my time you fucking freak.Actually it is you who will stop wasting everyone else's time considering you were banned.
Also try and spend some time learning how to argument your position and debunk the views of others while avoiding the use of inappropriate words in the process.

[cska]

I dont think its that simple. The dynamics of human sexuality and the relationship between our genitals and mind are older than our social constructs. For example, sexually, a pre-trans woman cannot hope to compete with birth women in winning the affections of heterosexual men who have no propensity to find the male genitals attractive or overlookable. The conquering of the predisposition of many heterosexual men who would never regard post trans women as sexual beings in spite of their surgery is a milestone that must be attained. I dont think capitalism or social conditioning can be blamed for these states of affairs. I think its primeval biological programming that predates the socio-political zeitgeist.

Sexuality, biological sex, and personality (called gender when stereotyped based on biological sex) are three different things and should be viewed as such. You are mixing them up. Sexuality is not socially constructed. Gender (which has nothing to do with sexuality) is.


Besides which, this is a distraction from the fundamental fact that anyone should have the unalienable and unconditional right to switch biological gender without being made to feel that their choice is wrong or illegitimate.

Sure, but they shouldn't complain if I find it weird that they wanted to change their body to match a different sex. I would feel the same way about black people who bleach their skin (though bleaching one's skin isn't as extreme as mutilating one's genitals...)

[Foldered]

Sexuality is not socially constructed. Gender (which has nothing to do with sexuality) is.

While I would agree that Gender and Sexuality are mutually exclusive, I would disagree that sexuality is not socially constructed.
The terms and identities, "homo-," "hetero-," bi-," etc. are all socially constructed terms and identities. Within the field of anthropology, a lot of work has been done in these areas. I'm specifically referring to Evelyn Blackwood's study of Tombois in West Sumatra (http://www.jstor.org/stable/656570). (If you don't have access to jstor and are genuinely interested, I can more than likely get the .pdf for you).
Also, in terms of Western sexuality, as I've said before in this thread I think, Gayle Rubin's (often considered a marxist anthroplogist) "Thinking Sex" (a nice summary can be found here (http://depts.washington.edu/keywords/wiki/index.php?title=Thinking_Sex:_Notes_for_a_Radical_ Theory_of_the_Politics_of_Sexuality)) quite successfully, in my opinion, argues that sexuality should be understood on the same terms as gender, as a social construction.

[cska]

While I would agree that Gender and Sexuality are mutually exclusive, I would disagree that sexuality is not socially constructed.
The terms and identities, "homo-," "hetero-," bi-," etc. are all socially constructed terms and identities. Within the field of anthropology, a lot of work has been done in these areas. I'm specifically referring to Evelyn Blackwood's study of Tombois in West Sumatra (http://www.jstor.org/stable/656570). (If you don't have access to jstor and are genuinely interested, I can more than likely get the .pdf for you).
Also, in terms of Western sexuality, as I've said before in this thread I think, Gayle Rubin's (often considered a marxist anthroplogist) "Thinking Sex" (a nice summary can be found here (http://depts.washington.edu/keywords/wiki/index.php?title=Thinking_Sex:_Notes_for_a_Radical_ Theory_of_the_Politics_of_Sexuality)) quite successfully, in my opinion, argues that sexuality should be understood on the same terms as gender, as a social construction.

I'm not sure I understand your point. If I am interpreting you correctly, you are saying that the reason I am attracted exclusively to one sex is not biological, but because of social norms. :laugh:

[Foldered]

I'm not sure I understand your point. If I am interpreting you correctly, you are saying that the reason I am attracted exclusively to one sex is not biological, but because of social norms. :laugh:
In a sense, yes, but it is not limited to "social norms." What I am saying is is that sexuality is a social creation. It doesn't seem very difficult to understand to me.
To understand sexuality on a simply biological level is pretty limiting, no?

[cska]

In a sense, yes, but it is not limited to "social norms." What I am saying is is that sexuality is a social creation. It doesn't seem very difficult to understand to me.
To understand sexuality on a simply biological level is pretty limiting, no?

I understand socially constructed to mean that it is almost completely based on social culture. Of course, everything is affected by culture, but gender is one of the things that has the distinction of not having any basis in reality, but rather being something that social culture has created. Sexuality, on the other hand, is affected both by biology and society.

[Foldered]

I understand socially constructed to mean that it is almost completely based on social culture. Of course, everything is affected by culture, but gender is one of the things that has the distinction of not having any basis in reality, but rather being something that social culture has created. Sexuality, on the other hand, is affected both by biology and society.
I'm not entirely sure I agree, but that's okay.

[Anti-Zionist]

What are most of your views on it?
I think transgender people, like many others, are fantastic. I mean this genuinely.

[counterblast]

All of your arguments criticizing trans people for upholding the institution of gender as though this was proof that trans people are counterrevolutionary or mentally ill-- are ridiculous. Every oppressed group who has challenged gender has been swallowed up and reformed by the patriarchy and used to reinforce the gender binary -- not just trans people.

The feminist movement in many ways transcended gender. Women everywhere challenged male dominance and began saying "My body and mind belongs to me and you can't force me to conform to your expectations of me! I'll be my own woman" In doing so, they transgressed gender, but they also replicated the system that had oppressed them for so long.

The gay liberation movement, also, in many ways transcended gender. Gays and lesbians everywhere challenged the heteronormative family structure and began saying "I can love whoever I want! My body and heart belongs to me! I don't have to be heterosexual! I'll be a gay man or gay woman/bisexual man or bisexual woman." In doing so, they transgressed gender, but they also replicated the system that had oppressed them for so long.

So it should become apparent that the problem of simultaneously challenging gender, while perpetuating it, is not new nor is it some affirmation that being trans is a mental illness or that being trans isn't leftist. It means that assimilating into the patriarchal, binaried system isn't leftist.

As Minnie Bruce Pratt once said;
It seems their imaginations were in thrall to the institutions that oppressed them.

[gorillafuck]

The feminist movement in many ways transcended gender. Women everywhere challenged male dominance and began saying "My body and mind belongs to me and you can't force me to conform to your expectations of me! I'll be my own woman" In doing so, they transgressed gender, but they also replicated the system that had oppressed them for so long.
How did they replicate it?

[Foldered]

How did they replicate it?
Second wave feminism (and even a lot of contemporary popular feminism) has been known to take part in marginalizing men and homosexuals, as well as ignoring class and race related issues.

[counterblast]

How did they replicate it?

By upholding the system of gender, and subsequently patriarchy.

By identifying themselves as women, rather than something else entirely.

EDIT: To put it on different terms -- they abandoned revolutionary change for reform.

[gorillafuck]

By upholding the system of gender, and subsequently patriarchy.

By identifying themselves as women, rather than something else entirely.

EDIT: To put it on different terms -- they abandoned revolutionary change for reform.
What's inherently wrong with identifying as a woman? I definitely see why it's bad to restrict which gender someone can be to their sex, but what's wrong with gender if it is not sex specific? Such as a situation where a male can identify as either a woman or a man without societal pressures, and vice versa.

[Foldered]

What's inherently wrong with identifying as a woman? I definitely see why it's bad to restrict which gender someone can be to their sex, but what's wrong with gender if it is not sex specific? Such as a situation where a male can identify as either a woman or a man without societal pressures, and vice versa.

Because to identify as a "woman" is essentially a white and middle class "privilege" that lesbians and women "of colour" are marginalized because of; it ignores the interplay of sex, race, class, and sexuality in systems of oppression.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Here is another thing to discuss about, ALONG with the first post I made that opened this topic..

If gender is a social construct, then how is that to judge them by the clothes they wear or what they call themselves? Gender =/= Sexuality, unless you let western/capitalist media tell you otherwise, the most common being: "All transsexual/transgendered people are gay."

Well what if they were straight? What if they just liked wearing womens clothes? Does that make them less productive? Of course not....

I would point out that an MtF that is attracted to men is not gay but straight, as an MtF attracted to women is a lesbian.
There are some who are bisexual (attracted to both male and female bodies)
Then there are those, like me, who are omnisexual (attracted purely to personalities)

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I would point out that an MtF that is attracted to men is not gay but straight, as an MtF attracted to women is a lesbian.
There are some who are bisexual (attracted to both male and female bodies)
Then there are those, like me, who are omnisexual (attracted purely to personalities)

Why was it a few years ago it became popular to call it omnisexual instead of pansexual? :confused:

[RedAnarchist]

Why was it a few years ago it became popular to call it omnisexual instead of pansexual? :confused:

I think it was because people thought that pansexuality meant that pansexuals were attracted to everything, from people to animals to objects when it really means someone who is attracted to another human being regardless of sex or gender.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I think it was because people thought that pansexuality meant that pansexuals were attracted to everything, from people to animals to objects when it really means someone who is attracted to another human being regardless of sex or gender.

One of my friends once compared me to the tornado in the wizard of oz in regards to my being omni.

[Jazzratt]

I think it was because people thought that pansexuality meant that pansexuals were attracted to everything, from people to animals to objects when it really means someone who is attracted to another human being regardless of sex or gender.

I don't see how using the term "omnisexual" at all ameliorates this, if anything "omni-" suggests attraction to animals, objects and so on a lot more than "pan-". On a purely semantic level I prefer the term pansexual.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I don't see how using the term "omnisexual" at all ameliorates this, if anything "omni-" suggests attraction to animals, objects and so on a lot more than "pan-". On a purely semantic level I prefer the term pansexual.

Omni means many, as in all over the gender spectrum.

My preference for the use of 'omni' over 'pan' is mostly because omni sounds prettier to me. :-)

[Belisarius]

I don't see how using the term "omnisexual" at all ameliorates this, if anything "omni-" suggests attraction to animals, objects and so on a lot more than "pan-". On a purely semantic level I prefer the term pansexual.
to be honest, omne and pan are synonimous. The first is latin, the second greek, but qua semantics it's exactly the same.

[Azraelscross]

my feeling on the subject are pretty self explanatory. I am going to the doctor in a few days to get referred to a gender specialist after all. its exciting and terrifying at the same time. new lease on life but the always there paranoia

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

my feeling on the subject are pretty self explanatory. I am going to the doctor in a few days to get referred to a gender specialist after all. its exciting and terrifying at the same time. new lease on life but the always there paranoia

I hope all goes well for you.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I think transgender people, like many others, are fantastic. I mean this genuinely.

Awwww. I think that was a cute way of saying that. :wub: