Bomb explodes at MI5 Headquarters in Ireland

[Andropov]

The Real IRA has admitted it was behind a car bomb which exploded outside the army base which houses MI5's Northern Ireland headquarters.
The blast came on the day that David Ford was elected as NI's Justice Minister, the first local politician to hold the job in 38 years.
It happened at about 0020 BST outside Palace Barracks, in Holywood, County Down. Police said no warning was given.
The bomb went off as the surrounding area was being evacuated.
An elderly man was treated for minor injuries.
The bomb was placed in a taxi, which had been hijacked in the Ligoniel area of north Belfast, about seven miles from Holywood, at about 2150 BST.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47632000/jpg/_47632021_nifire.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8614723.stm

[Saorsa]

If no warning was given, why was the area being evacuated?

[Bitter Ashes]

If no warning was given, why was the area being evacuated?
Could have been that the car looked suspicious I suppose. Anyway, not going to take the troll bait in pointing out the obvious flaws in this kind of strategy.

[Devrim]

It is strange how the Republican Socialsts say that the armed struggle offers no way forward today, but they still get a little excited when a bomb goes off.

Do IRSP members think this sort of action has anything to offer the working class?

Devrim

[Andropov]

If no warning was given, why was the area being evacuated?
Im guessing here because they noticed the Taxi parked up suspiciously.
If any cars or vans are left around sensitive targets like Army Barracks's, Police Barracks's, Courthouses, Jails, Government buldings etc then they normally evacuate, cordone off the area and send in the bomb squad.
That is of course if the Brits wish to minimise its damage, sometimes its proficient to let them cause maximum damage.

[Andropov]

It is strange how the Republican Socialsts say that the armed struggle offers no way forward today, but they still get a little excited when a bomb goes off.
I posted a news article that is all over the news here at the moment, how you can determine my excitement level from copying and pasteing the news report by the BBC is anyones guess.

Do IRSP members think this sort of action has anything to offer the working class?
I dont see it as being constructive in the least but I cant speak for anyone else.

[MaoTseHelen]

Now this is good targeting.

[Proletarian Ultra]

Do IRSP members think this sort of action has anything to offer the working class?

MI5 is a vicious and anti-democratic organization that has been engaged in a decades-long campaign of state terror against the working class of Britain and its subject territories.

I'm not going to endorse this bombing. But I can see the logic behind it.

(I am not a member of IRSP or any organization in Ireland).

[YKTMX]

This 'strategy' is a total dead end.

[Coggeh]

MI5 is a vicious and anti-democratic organization that has been engaged in a decades-long campaign of state terror against the working class of Britain and its subject territories.

I'm not going to endorse this bombing. But I can see the logic behind it.

(I am not a member of IRSP or any organization in Ireland).
The IRSP (taking liberties here) don't support this kind of action any longer as a means to achieve a goal. The bomb was placed by the Real IRA a reactionary republican organisation that has no interest in doing whats most pro-active for class struggle but what is more pro-active for beating the sectarian drums in a nation still bitterly divided.

[Devrim]

I posted a news article that is all over the news here at the moment, how you can determine my excitement level from copying and pasteing the news report by the BBC is anyones guess.

Not you in particular, but the last time there was a thread about a bomb in Northern Ireland, they were. Posting something without a comment implies at least some level of endorsement


I dont see it as being constructive in the least but I cant speak for anyone else.

Would you condemn it, and the Real IRA?

Devrim

[Proletarian Ultra]

The IRSP (taking liberties here) don't support this kind of action any longer as a means to achieve a goal. The bomb was placed by the Real IRA a reactionary republican organisation that has no interest in doing whats most pro-active for class struggle but what is more pro-active for beating the sectarian drums in a nation still bitterly divided.

From a 32SCM blog:


The ["Real"] IRA has vowed to intensify its armed campaign in the year ahead, announcing that its actions will be "louder than one thousand words."


That's dumber than a thousand hammers in a bag.

[Andropov]

Not you in particular, but the last time there was a thread about a bomb in Northern Ireland, they were.
Who exactly? Were they IRSP members?
What did they say?

Posting something without a comment implies at least some level of endorsement
That is complete and utter bullshit.
Who decides that posting something without comment implies some level of endorsement?
Or did you just decide that yourself to accomodate your bullshit post insinuating I was getting "excited".

Would you condemn it, and the Real IRA?
Depends what you define as condemn.
I condemn it on the grounds that it is counter-productive and not in the least constructive in this current conext.
I would condemn the cokes on the same grounds that their isolated attacks are counter-productive and not in the least constructive.
I would also condemn them on the grounds that they are a shambles of an organisation that are so riddled with touts and inept leadership that they couldnt organise a piss up in a brewery.
Dont even get me started on the contos.

[Hoggy_RS]

Not you in particular, but the last time there was a thread about a bomb in Northern Ireland, they were. Posting something without a comment implies at least some level of endorsement



Would you condemn it, and the Real IRA?

Devrim

Absolutely ridiculous, do you apply this logic to everyone who posts news articles on this website? You really are clutching at straws in your attempt to portray all IRPs as blood thirsty nationalists....

[Palingenisis]

Would you condemn it, and the Real IRA?

Devrim

During the last phase of the war in Ireland a woman who had had her child murdered I think by the British state was being interviewed by a notorious RTE (the Television company of the Free State/26 county regieme) and he brought up an action carried out by the IRA and asked over and over again to the woman "did she condemn it and the IRA?" until the woman finally broke down in tears. I dont see where the politics of condemnation get us, but I know where it comes from...Indeed the Internationalist Communist Group which is obviously much more politically opposed to the Real IRA than I am wrote an interesting piece on this...

http://gci-icg.org/english/communism12.htm#ribbon

Unlike them a Left Communist group in Manchester after a warning for an IRA bomb on an economic target was deliberately ignored by the British state came out with hysterical stuff about "IRA- anti-working class murdering bastards!" effectively encouraging violence against Republican and peace activists in England and indeed the wider Irish community.

This was an act of resistance against colonial aggression. Tactically it might not have been wise but thats another issue, so of course I dont condemn it.

[Raightning]

This bombing must be condemned as reactionary, as unpleasant as it is to sit on the same side as MI5 scum in any argument. I'm not opposed to the principle of physical force republicanism, and violence will have a role in the union of the island (loyalist thugs have already shown they're quite happy to take up arms to keep it disunited) under any sort of system, be it socialist or bourgeoise; but what exactly do attacks like this accomplish?

All that this seems to have brought about is wasted explosives. It's regrettable that the "Real" IRA and the 32CSM are prepared to carry out and endorse such tactics, and I'm always glad to see IRSP comrades refusing to endorse said tactics. The role of the republican socialist movement must be to win comrades who find themselves in such organisations as the 32CSM away from the reactionary RIRA way of operation.

I should note, mind, that the 32CSM may have its affiliations with reactionaries, but it shouldn't be dismissed as a reactionary organisation. It still does good work, and there are many good comrades within its ranks.

[Palingenisis]

The IRSP (taking liberties here) don't support this kind of action any longer as a means to achieve a goal. The bomb was placed by the Real IRA a reactionary republican organisation that has no interest in doing whats most pro-active for class struggle but what is more pro-active for beating the sectarian drums in a nation still bitterly divided.

I dont know anything about the Real IRA (they are an illegal underground insurgent group after all...) but the membership of the 32 csm varies greatly from anarchists and moaists on one hand to social democrats an Catholic distributists on the other...I would think that the Real IRA is equally varied...There are certainly reactionary elements within them but to call the whole organizations reactionary is just wrong...

[Palingenisis]

This 'strategy' is a total dead end.

How is the "stratergy" of selling newspapers filled with cliched drivel going "comrade"?

[YKTMX]

How is the "stratergy" of selling newspapers filled with cliched drivel going "comrade"?

It's going well.

That aside - how is the strategy of bombing the Protestants into an united Ireland going "comrade"?

[Hoggy_RS]

It's going well.

That aside - how is the strategy of bombing the Protestants into an united Ireland going "comrade"?

Is your membership of the republican socialist group on here supposed to be ironic? Because that is quite an ignorant comment. How did this bomb target protestants?

[Bitter Ashes]

Is your membership of the republican socialist group on here supposed to be ironic? Because that is quite an ignorant comment. How did this bomb target protestants?
That's like suggesting that Isreal bombing hospitals in the Gaza strip wasnt targetting Palestinians, because there might have been tourists inside.

[YKTMX]

Is your membership of the republican socialist group on here supposed to be ironic? Because that is quite an ignorant comment. How did this bomb target protestants?

That comment was meant ironically. It was a response to the poster's ludicrous sectarian comment.

I wasn't referring to this action. Obviously it didn't target protestants.

But this strategy is a complete dead-end. That's obvious - and I don't see how it at all conflicts with being a republican socialist.

Can you explain it?

[Palingenisis]

That's like suggesting that Isreal bombing hospitals in the Gaza strip wasnt targetting Palestinians, because there might have been tourists inside.

I think you will find that the bomb was aimed at MI5 who employ Roman Catholics, Wiccans, Jews, whorshippers of the green rabbit from the planet sirius...

[larrym]

Could have been that the car looked suspicious I suppose. Anyway, not going to take the troll bait in pointing out the obvious flaws in this kind of strategy.
they hi-jacked a taxi planted the bomb in it then told the driver to park it outside the base and tell them they have 20 mins heard that on radio scotland news

[Hoggy_RS]

That's like suggesting that Isreal bombing hospitals in the Gaza strip wasnt targetting Palestinians, because there might have been tourists inside.
Are you claiming that Gaza hospitals and the headquarters of MI5 are similar targets? Those barracks have been the HQ of british oppression in Ireland and has been the location of brutal torture of many comrades. The British Army were being targeted, not Protestants.


That comment was meant ironically. It was a response to the poster's ludicrous sectarian comment.

I wasn't referring to this action. Obviously it didn't target protestants.

But this strategy is a complete dead-end. That's obvious - and I don't see how it at all conflicts with being a republican socialist.

Can you explain it?

I agree it is a dead end and i'd disagree with this action as it does nothing to further our cause.

[Bitter Ashes]

Are you claiming that Gaza hospitals and the headquarters of MI5 are similar targets? Those barracks have been the HQ of british oppression in Ireland and has been the location of brutal torture of many comrades. The British Army were being targeted, not Protestants.
No I'm not. It was a short sighted analogy. Sorry.

I'm reffering more to the taxi driver and the OAP who were the only ones to suffer for this.

[Mindtoaster]

If no warning was given, why was the area being evacuated?

Holy propaganda wtf

When I read this article yesterday when it was first reported on BBC, they said a warning *was* given

[Leo]

During the last phase of the war in Ireland a woman who had had her child murdered I think by the British state was being interviewed by a notorious RTE (the Television company of the Free State/26 county regieme) and he brought up an action carried out by the IRA and asked over and over again to the woman "did she condemn it and the IRA?" until the woman finally broke down in tears. I dont see where the politics of condemnation get us, but I know where it comes from...

To say there is anything in common between a tv interviewer forcing someone to make a moralist condemnation, and a communist asking whether someone politically condemns the RIRA or not would be pure demagogy though. We are discussing politics and political positions, and political positions always involve condemnations. It is completely fair to ask someone what their exact position is on this or that movement. I don't think anyone is broke into tears during this discussion either.


Unlike them a Left Communist group in Manchester after a warning for an IRA bomb on an economic target was deliberately ignored by the British state came out with hysterical stuff about "IRA- anti-working class murdering bastards!" effectively encouraging violence against Republican and peace activists in England and indeed the wider Irish community.

What group and incident are you referring to? Both left communist groups active in Manchester (the ICC and the CWO), while are against Irish nationalism and do see the IRA as a bourgeois organization, never ceased to condemn the actions and terrorism of the British state in Ireland, and certainly would never use a term such "bastards" while making a political argument.


This was an act of resistance against colonial aggression.

Yes, I am sure the colonial aggression will weaken significantly now that a seemingly sweet elderly man received minor injuries, and of course the costs of repairs will cause a significant financial damage to British imperialism.

Even if the blast was perfectly accurate and killed all the MI5 agents in the building and no one else, while I would shed no tears for the deceased, how hard would it be for the MI5 to replace the people whom it lost? Would it in any way help the cause of the working class of Ireland, or would it in any way harm the interests of the British state in Ireland?

Quite the contrary, nothing can strengthen the hand of the British state ideologically in Ireland more than attacks like this. And of course small armed groups tend to be heavily infiltrated and easily manipulatable. Maybe seeing too much of things like this ever since I was a little kid made me a bit cynical, but I smell police provocation when I see a news clip like this.

[Andropov]

That's like suggesting that Isreal bombing hospitals in the Gaza strip wasnt targetting Palestinians, because there might have been tourists inside.
No its not, its actually nothing like your failed analogy.
Do better next time.

[Palingenisis]

What group and incident are you referring to? Both left communist groups active in Manchester (the ICC and the CWO), while are against Irish nationalism and do see the IRA as a bourgeois organization, never ceased to condemn the actions and terrorism of the British state in Ireland, and certainly would never use a term such "bastards" while making a political argument.
.

http://libcom.org/history/ira-anti-working-class-bastards-subversion

I dont think they exist anymore but still...They worse anti-Irish stuff but I cant find it on the net now.

[Palingenisis]

Even if the blast was perfectly accurate and killed all the MI5 agents in the building and no one else, while I would shed no tears for the deceased, how hard would it be for the MI5 to replace the people whom it lost? Would it in any way help the cause of the working class of Ireland, or would it in any way harm the interests of the British state in Ireland?
.


Kill one...Threaten thousands. The British controlled media on both sides of the border have been down-playing seriously the levels of aggressive resistance to the occupation. They want to maintain the illusion of "peace" and "normality". Actions like this help rip off that mask a little. The other thing you are missing out on is that some people would rather fight and die knowing there is little chance of victory in their life times than submit to the union jack boot.

[Leo]

I don't think Subversion really can be qualified as a left communist group (sort of in between councilism and anarchism from what I make out of their stuff, and sort of closer to the latter), but in any case I think accusing them of being anti-Irish doesn't seem very accurate - being opposed to the IRA does not mean you are anti-Irish, and based on their articles on libcom, they completely and openly condemn British imperialism.

[Palingenisis]

I don't think Subversion really can be qualified as a left communist group (sort of in between councilism and anarchism from what I make out of their stuff, and sort of closer to the latter), but in any case I think accusing them of being anti-Irish doesn't seem very accurate - being opposed to the IRA does not mean you are anti-Irish, and based on their articles on libcom, they completely and openly condemn British imperialism.

What is spinning the whole two barbaric tribes fighting amongst themselves "understanding" than? Portaying the struggle against British Imperialism as a "sectarian conflict"?

[Leo]

Kill one...Threaten thousands. I don't think the bourgeois states care about either one person or a thousand dying. MI5 of course, has always been able to find recruits and even much more violence than this hasn't prevented it in the past.


The British controlled media on both sides of the border have been down-playing seriously the levels of aggressive resistance to the occupation. There is not much to downplay from the looks of it anyway.


They want to maintain the illusion of "peace" and "normality". Actions like this help rip off that mask a little. The illusion of "peace" and "normality" can never be maintained without giving people a taste of the lack of it.

What good is "peace" and "normality" for if evil marginal groups aren't desperately attempting to disturb it?


The other thing you are missing out on is that some people would rather fight and die knowing there is little chance of victory in their life times than submit to the union jack boot. Very romantic.


What is spinning the whole two barbaric tribes fighting amongst themselves "understanding" than? Portaying the struggle against British Imperialism as a "sectarian conflict"?

Are you actually denying that there was a lot of sectarian conflict involved in Ireland in the past?

[Proletarian Ultra]

What group and incident are you referring to? Both left communist groups active in Manchester (the ICC and the CWO), while are against Irish nationalism

Well good! I am too, and so are the IRSP comrades. But don't try to change the subject: we're talking about Republicanism here.



What is spinning the whole two barbaric tribes fighting amongst themselves "understanding" than? Portaying the struggle against British Imperialism as a "sectarian conflict"?

Are you actually denying that there was a lot of sectarian conflict involved in Ireland in the past?


Read his comment again.

[Palingenisis]

Are you actually denying that there was a lot of sectarian conflict involved in Ireland in the past?

As an Irish person from a protestant background basically yes...Though sectarian divisions have been used and played on by certain people quite knowingly (Edward Carson's mammy was an Italian Roman Catholic and I think his dad was RC too but I will have to check that up, he was born in Dublin, and knowingly played on northern protestant fears to secure English economic interests in Ireland). To compare Ireland's fight for freedom with the 30 years war is laughable at best, downright sinister at worst...

[No pasarán]

Are you actually denying that there was a lot of sectarian conflict involved in Ireland in the past?

While there has been sectarian elements in the irish struggle, this is something largely created by the british and to a lesser extent irish goverments- the deliberate land thefts, the moving of huges numbers of people into (largely the north) who were anti irish/pro crown... loyalists in other words, the suppresion of peoples right to choose their religions, the delibare ghettoising of people by religion in the north, the black ops carried out in eire through out the troubles and still carried out by the british security and intelligence services, the attempts of both goverments to segregate protestants, 800 years of suppresion in ireland from the british crown and goverment.. I could go on about the problems in ireland but you get what I mean.

Wolfe Tone and George Gilmore, Sam Maguire, George Plant, Jack White, were protestant, as have been several leading members of Republican political partys and armed groups. Its not about religion, its about liberation. I say fuck the queen AND the pope as well. Religion is bullshit,

[Proletarian Ultra]

I say fuck the queen AND the pope as well.

"But when we look down into the fathomless depth of this infamy of the heads of the Fenian conspiracy, we must acknowledge that eternity is not long enough, nor hell not enough to punish such miscreants." -- Most Rev. Dr. David Moriarty, Roman Catholic Bishop of Kerry, 1867

[CChocobo]

This 'strategy' is a total dead end.
so how's handing out workers weekly going for you comrade?
Do you consider groups like the ALF freeing animals from test labs or from fur coat factories to be a dead end strategy too?

to quote Tom Frampton from his song Sectarian Communist Blues

"and well I hate imperialists but you turned equally fascist
and your papers won't do jack to set me free
and you sold your youth the day you bought their truth
now you're hawking worker's weekly, issue 3"

have fun handing out papers comrade.

Are you against direct action too?

[Saorsa]

Do you consider groups like the ALF freeing animals from test labs or from fur coat factories to be a dead end strategy too?

Well, if your strategy is to free a couple of animals, it works well enough. If your aiming to overthrow the capitalist class, I think a group like the ALF is completely irrelevant.

To be honest though, it's not that I have problems with the ALF's tactics. I just don't give a shit about 'liberating' animals.

[CChocobo]

Well, if your strategy is to free a couple of animals, it works well enough. If your aiming to overthrow the capitalist class, I think a group like the ALF is completely irrelevant.

To be honest though, it's not that I have problems with the ALF's tactics. I just don't give a shit about 'liberating' animals.

That's your opinion, and that's fine. I just don't see anything wrong with what the Real IRA are doing or not doing. So what they bombed something, it might not do much for the movement, but at the same time at least they're using what they can do fight back against their oppressors. I'm not saying Urban Guerrilla warfare is what will bring about socialism. I think the only time it would work is if there was a mass movement behind it, if the workers and poor were behind it, then sure. But at the same time I don't see any reason to ridicule them for their actions.

Look at Greece for example. I'm sure we all know there could be more done in terms of organizing some sort of movement there, as it is now it's a lot of affinity groups carrying out attacks, but at the same time i'm not gonna condemn them or say i disagree with what they do. I'm glad people are fighting back against the state, and it's fascist instruments i.e. police, military, judicial system. I see nothing wrong with people who are fighting back against oppression.

[Andropov]

Seems like "Oglaigh na hEireann" are responsible for the attack now since the cokes have publicly stated they were not responsible for it this morning.

[Ravachol]

Seems like "Oglaigh na hEireann" are responsible for the attack now since the cokes have publicly stated they were not responsible for it this morning.

Oglaigh na hEireann the CIRA splinter?

[Mindtoaster]

so how's handing out workers weekly going for you comrade?
Do you consider groups like the ALF freeing animals from test labs or from fur coat factories to be a dead end strategy too?



Animal liberation is a dead end ideology in and of itself, though I totally agree with the rest of your sentiments.

Watching leftists in dead end organizations who essentially do nothing other then sell newspapers scramble to defend an attack on Mi5 almost completely in line with bourgeois is a bit pathetic and the people calling this attack "sectarian" need to fucking learn what the word means

[MaoTseHelen]

This [and Massareene] is the best press they get. Anytime anyone of theirs is arrested or interrogated or conditions at Maghaberry get worse; this is what the news will mention to justify their claim that republicans are a threat. It's propaganda of the deed, pure and simple, and hitting MI5 makes for good headlines.

Condemn it all you want, but don't claim there's no strategy here. They know what this does.

[Andropov]

Oglaigh na hEireann the CIRA splinter?
ONH have absolutely nothing to do with the contos.
They seem to mainly come from dissafected provos with some younger recruits.
RNU seem to have some ties to them but alot of press has been circulated about some top level infiltration within them.

[Palingenisis]

ONH have absolutely nothing to do with the contos.
They seem to mainly come from dissafected provos with some younger recruits.
RNU seem to have some ties to them but alot of press has been circulated about some top level infiltration within them.


RNU dont believe in armed struggle at this time they just dont believe in condemning comrades who do.

We can say all we like about the armed militants now...But just wait and see the reaction when one of them finally gets killed in action.

[Andropov]

Condemn it all you want, but don't claim there's no strategy here. They know what this does.
What strategy is that exactly?
Somehow gain the level of support, membership, organisation, equipment, funding and expertise as the PIRA and at best fight the Brits to a stalemate?
Now this is the best scenario possible in the current context and in all likelyhood will fall way short of this.
But if they do indeed fight the Brits to a stalemate all you'll get is the same compromises around the negotiating table as PSF got.
These Republicans who continue to attempt to wage armed conflict in Ireland are only getting young misguided working class lads shot and imprisoned for decades for sweet fuck all.
These actions are worth nothing in the present context, all they do is funnel valid working class decent from the reformist PSF leadership and the sectarian GFA into often heavily infiltrated Republican Groups and give PSF free reign over working class communities because of a lack of a valid and efficient opposition.
These actions are misguided and counter productive.

[Andropov]

RNU dont believe in armed struggle at this time they just dont believe in condemning comrades who do.
The dogs on the street know that RNU are a political front for ONH.

We can say all we like about the armed militants now...But just wait and see the reaction when one of them finally gets killed in action.
See my post above.

[Ravachol]

ONH have absolutely nothing to do with the contos.
They seem to mainly come from dissafected provos with some younger recruits.
RNU seem to have some ties to them but alot of press has been circulated about some top level infiltration within them.

I see, I thought you meant the conto splinter named ONH which seems to have split from the contos in 2006 according to IMC reports. As for the Republican Network for Unity, how do their politics differ from 32CSM's?

[Palingenisis]

I see, I thought you meant the conto splinter named ONH which seems to have split from the contos in 2006 according to IMC reports. As for the Republican Network for Unity, how do their politics differ from 32CSM's?

The Republican Network for Unity is much more focused on wider social issues besides the occupation such as housing issues and supporting strikes. I would say they are Republican-Socialist while as the 32 csm contains Republican Socialists.

[MaoTseHelen]

What strategy is that exactly?

It's propaganda of the deed, pure and simple, and hitting MI5 makes for good headlines.


That, and it absolutely forces the UK to dump assloads of money into security up North. Doubly effective. :cool:

[Bitter Ashes]

That, and it absolutely forces the UK to dump assloads of money into security up North. Doubly effective. :cool:
I thought security was devolved to Northern Ireland on the same night as the bomb?

[Palingenisis]

I thought security was devolved to Northern Ireland on the same night as the bomb?

It was....That was the idea behind the bomb I presume.

[Mindtoaster]

I thought security was devolved to Northern Ireland on the same night as the bomb?

Wonder if that includes Mi5?

[Saorsa]

It wouldn't include MI5. That's a central operation, it won't get devolved to local administrations.

[MaoTseHelen]

Nor will it include Special Branch, afaik. Britain spends epic tons on intel through MI5 in the North, and attacks like this absolutely make it a necessity.

[Andropov]

That,
Just stating propaganda of the deed and thats it doesnt wash.
Detail to me your forseeable plan of how the 32CSM/RIRA is going to achieve an independant 32 county Socialist Republic with attacks like these?

and it absolutely forces the UK to dump assloads of money into security up North.
And It has been willing to do so for centurys.
Having to pump a few extra million into Ireland will in no way encourage them to drop the socio-political reasons for why they still cling on to the remaining territories of Ireland.
Anyways the amount of money they are spending on Policing Ireland now in comparison to when the PIRA's and INLA's campaigns were in full swing is nothing, a fraction.
So yet again take my post above and disect it piece by piece and tell me how these groups are going to achieve their objectives with attacks like these?
The sad thing is while your cheer leading from the sidelines alot of young working class lads are going to either be shot or spend decades rotting in her majestys prisons not even to mention all these attacks in this given cotnext are counter productive.

Doubly effective. :cool:
Get a grip.

[Andropov]

I see, I thought you meant the conto splinter named ONH which seems to have split from the contos in 2006 according to IMC reports.
Im not sure what ONH your referring to there, the only ONH here doing anything of note is just comprised of dissafected provos and some new younger recruits.

As for the Republican Network for Unity, how do their politics differ from 32CSM's?
RNU are alot more socially aware and more left wing than the 32CSM which has some notorious anti-communists.
Some of the cream of the crop in the 32CSM were previously the Provos who attacked and slandered the IRSM.
Their social policies amount to shooting drug dealers, and thats about it.
The rate at which Traditional Republicanism is splintering is alarming.

[Palingenisis]

The dogs on the street know that RNU are a political front for ONH.


The dogs on the street seem to always know a lot of things...Someone in the pub told me that the Irps fund raise by "granny bashing" and when I asked him for evidence he told me the "dogs on the street know it". Anyway its a bit of a jump from "having some links" to being the political front of. The Republican Network for Unity arose from a pressure group of ex-POWs in the Provisional movement that was opposed to recognising the legitimacy of crown forces in Ireland...They are not a political party, more a network of activists who's purpose is fight for working class interests and highlight the ongoing occupation. Most of the people in them are against armed struggle at this time...of course when it comes to volunteers confronting the state people are going to take the volunteers' side...Thats not the same thing as what RSF and the 32 csm believe in. People can sympathise with the armed militants without believing in their tactics.

[No pasarán]

And It has been willing to do so for centurys.
Having to pump a few extra million into Ireland will in no way encourage them to drop the socio-political reasons for why they still cling on to the remaining territories of Ireland.
Anyways the amount of money they are spending on Policing Ireland now in comparison to when the PIRA's and INLA's campaigns were in full swing is nothing, a fraction.


I have to agree with you here

Although my heart says resitance by any means is the best way (and I'm sure I'm not the only one), in my head I know that occasional bombings (of varying levels of effectiveness) are not going to force the brits out of northern ireland. The ideal of attacking M15 is all well and good, but unfourtunately whil its more effective than throwing stones and petrol bombs and taking pot shots at the ss ruc, sorry the Pig Snouts of Northern Ireland, sorry I mean the police... I'm sure it did little more to those inside the HQ than shake them up. It won't make them leave.

And Unfourtunately some armed republicans have become as guilty as the armed unionists in their attempts to rule their communities by fear. The support across the world (I'm not suggesting it was total but that it was visisable across the whole feckin globe) than the republicans had has gone. The access to weapons that were sometimes more effective and advanced than the brits has gone. The popular support of the people of Eire and in particular Ulster is not what it was. It is a shame that the irish left can not come together and present a united front, in the same way anti fascists can. But thats not gonna happen right now. I can only hope I live to see a liberated Ireland. My granny once told me 'maybe it won't happen in my live time, maybe it won't happen in your life time, but one day the people will be free'. Thats one of the first things I rember her telling me when I was old enough to discuss the situation.

[Andropov]

The dogs on the street seem to always know a lot of things...Someone in the pub told me that the Irps fund raise by "granny bashing" and when I asked him for evidence he told me the "dogs on the street know it".
Sorry I cant provide verifiable evidence of this on a public internet forum.
But its well known around political circles of all persuasions in the north.

Anyway its a bit of a jump from "having some links" to being the political front of.
The alleged cross membership seems to be such an extent that it is as good as a front for ONH.
But as you pointed out earlier its all idle speculation, it remains to be seen if they are a front for ONH or not.
Either way from what ive heard ive come to my own conclusions.

The Republican Network for Unity arose from a pressure group of ex-POWs in the Provisional movement that was opposed to recognising the legitimacy of crown forces in Ireland...They are not a political party, more a network of activists who's purpose is fight for working class interests and highlight the ongoing occupation. Most of the people in them are against armed struggle at this time...of course when it comes to volunteers confronting the state people are going to take the volunteers' side...Thats not the same thing as what RSF and the 32 csm believe in. People can sympathise with the armed militants without believing in their tactics.
If you want to believe that about RNU, thats your perogative.
Only time will tell which one us is right with their alleged links to ONH or not but im open to be proven wrong, I have no axe to grind with either ONH or RNU.

[Dr Mindbender]

Could have been that the car looked suspicious I suppose. Anyway, not going to take the troll bait in pointing out the obvious flaws in this kind of strategy.

Indeed, during the troubles i used to live near an RUC station that was bombed on a regular basis.

AFAIK the bombers never made any phone call declaring responsibility. All of a sudden, the road would be taped over, a disposal robot would trundle up the pavement and next thing you knew ''BLAMMO!''

[Palingenisis]

The rate at which Traditional Republicanism is splintering is alarming.

Well Republicans arent killing each other as the INLA, Provisionals and Officials were doing in the 70s...If the splintering buries for good this idea of a "One True Republican movement outside of which there is no Republicanism" for good than I dont see it as a bad thing. Im glad that he political monopoly the Provos had over Republicanism for most of the 80s and 90s is coming or has come apart.

[dubaba]

Not you in particular, but the last time there was a thread about a bomb in Northern Ireland, they were. Posting something without a comment implies at least some level of endorsement



Would you condemn it, and the Real IRA?

DevrimI doubt any republican would condemn actions against crown forces.

However most IRSP members do not believe that this kind of thing will achieve a united socialist Ireland atm.

[Devrim]

I doubt any republican would condemn actions against crown forces.

However most IRSP members do not believe that this kind of thing will achieve a united socialist Ireland atm.

Yes, I know it is a very loaded term in Republican circles. I think IRSP supporters have been very clear on this though:


These Republicans who continue to attempt to wage armed conflict in Ireland are only getting young misguided working class lads shot and imprisoned for decades for sweet fuck all.
These actions are worth nothing in the present context,...


I agree it is a dead end and i'd disagree with this action as it does nothing to further our cause.

I do also see it as playing a role in increasing sectarianism. One poster asks:

How did this bomb target protestants?

It didn't, it targetted the state apperatus, but I would be pretty certain that there are some unionist now running around trying to scare people by saying that the days of bombings are coming back.


the 32CSM [which] has some notorious anti-communists.


This is understatement of the month.

Devrim

[Ravachol]

It didn't, it targetted the state apperatus, but I would be pretty certain that there are some unionist now running around trying to scare people by saying that the days of bombings are coming back.

That doesn't make it sectarian. When the Brigate Rosse, RAF, Action Directe or DHKP/C (pick any leftist armed group actually) targeted the state apperatus it would be used by conservatives and reactionaries to create an image of a bloody 'red terror' in the public minds. This doesn't make these attacks 'sectarian' however as they do not target a segment of the working class on non-class-based politics. It merely makes it a worthless strategy.

[Devrim]

That doesn't make it sectarian. When the Brigate Rosse, RAF, Action Directe or DHKP/C (pick any leftist armed group actually) targeted the state apperatus it would be used by conservatives and reactionaries to create an image of a bloody 'red terror' in the public minds. This doesn't make these attacks 'sectarian' however as they do not target a segment of the working class on non-class-based politics. It merely makes it a worthless strategy.

I didn't say this bombing was sectarian in itself. I said "I do also see it as playing a role in increasing sectarianism."

Devrim

[Ravachol]

I didn't say this bombing was sectarian in itself. I said "I do also see it as playing a role in increasing sectarianism."

Devrim

I agree it might, however, I think the chances are slim as the targets where obviously military in nature rather than aimed at loyalist organisations or governemental targets, which might have been a political disaster.

[Bitter Ashes]

That doesn't make it sectarian. When the Brigate Rosse, RAF, Action Directe or DHKP/C (pick any leftist armed group actually) targeted the state apperatus it would be used by conservatives and reactionaries to create an image of a bloody 'red terror' in the public minds. This doesn't make these attacks 'sectarian' however as they do not target a segment of the working class on non-class-based politics. It merely makes it a worthless strategy.
And I think they were lunatics, too. The Baader-Meinher Gang was absolutly foaming batshit crazy. Probably the only group I have any respect for right now is the EZLN, simply because they've drawn a clear line in the sand and will not cross it, but will defend it if need be. They won't go stalking through the countryside hunting for goverment workers. They also havent been on a rampage to try purge all the Spanish from Mexico...

Maybe these IRA groups could take a leaf out of thier books and just make a simple declaration that the British State is to stay out of Catholic areas in Northen Ireland and self-govern, then the ball's in the British State's court. They cross that line in the sand then they'll be chased back over it. You'd actualy get some sympathy with that tactic I think.

[Palingenisis]

Maybe these IRA groups could take a leaf out of thier books and just make a simple declaration that the British State is to stay out of Catholic areas in Northen Ireland and self-govern, then the ball's in the British State's court. They cross that line in the sand then they'll be chased back over it. You'd actualy get some sympathy with that tactic I think.

Did this not happen in the early 1970s? The level of autonomy that did exist though in nationalist areas was routed out by Thatcher's friends in the early 1980s. Ireland is not the south of Mexico.

Historically from the 1860s onwards its been shown that the best tactic is to attack in England itself. The fact that they havent been able to do that for around ten years tells us something about these groups.

[Palingenisis]

I didn't say this bombing was sectarian in itself. I said "I do also see it as playing a role in increasing sectarianism."

Devrim

Yeah and Im sure the Workers Solidarity Movement believe that teaching childern traditional Irish dancing plays a role in increasing sectarianism....

[Bitter Ashes]

Did this not happen in the early 1970s? The level of autonomy that did exist though in nationalist areas was routed out by Thatcher's friends in the early 1980s. Ireland is not the south of Mexico.
As it was in Southern Mexico. They persisted though and it's paid off. They're now at the point that they've become so popular that the Mexican goverment dares not attack the Zapaitisas. It's not too late to go back and try this again.


Historically from the 1860s onwards its been shown that the best tactic is to attack in England itself. The fact that they havent been able to do that for around ten years tells us something about these groups.
All the pub bombings and shopping centre bombings in England achieved was that a new generation of English who previously wouldn't have cared if NI's garrisons were overrun, now saw the IRA as a bunch of child-murdering nutcases who cared nothing for human life. We went from not giving a damn, to outright hating the IRA, which was the green light for the British goverment to work out it could get away with further repression in Ireland without any sort of backlash from the English population, who were calling for the IRA's blood now.

I wouldnt even be suprised if it turned some Brits who'd previously not been involved got into donating to Loyalist Groups, or even joined the army. That's the kind of degree that the IRA fucked up on the war of hearts and minds.

It was not only a disgusting campaign, but an increadibly stupid one too that's done Ireland nothign but harm. If the objective was to become the most hated people by British workers at the time, then they suceeded.

I sympathise with the idea of a united socialist Ireland on the grounds of no-borders, but this was quite possibly the dumbest thing that the IRA ever did and took them BACKWARDS in trying to get to that goal.

[Ravachol]

And I think they were lunatics, too. The Baader-Meinher Gang was absolutly foaming batshit crazy. Probably the only group I have any respect for right now is the EZLN, simply because they've drawn a clear line in the sand and will not cross it

Is this out of tactical reasons or out of pacifist ones? Seeing as pacifism is poison to the class struggle and actually does nothing but re-enforce the authority of the state.

[Palingenisis]

All the pub bombings and shopping centre bombings in England achieved was that a new generation of English who previously wouldn't have cared if NI's garrisons were overrun, now saw the IRA as a bunch of child-murdering nutcases who cared nothing for human life. We went from not giving a damn, to outright hating the IRA, which was the green light for the British goverment to work out it could get away with further repression in Ireland without any sort of backlash from the English population, who were calling for the IRA's blood now.

I wouldnt even be suprised if it turned some Brits who'd previously not been involved got into donating to Loyalist Groups, or even joined the army. That's the kind of degree that the IRA fucked up on the war of hearts and minds.

It was not only a disgusting campaign, but an increadibly stupid one too that's done Ireland nothign but harm. If the objective was to become the most hated people by British workers at the time, then they suceeded.

I sympathise with the idea of a united socialist Ireland on the grounds of no-borders, but this was quite possibly the dumbest thing that the IRA ever did and took them BACKWARDS in trying to get to that goal.

Well yeah of course it didnt exactly make them lovable teddy bears in the eyes of most people living in England...However if you look at opinion polls you will see that actions on the "mainland" increased the percentage of English people who wanted rid of Ireland (not out of any love for the IRA or the Irish people of course, but because they wanted rid of the problemn) and also from the time that the Fenians blew up the hall where the British parliment meets in the 19 th century these actions forced concessions of the UK state in a way that bombs going off or people dying in Ireland whatever their religion would never do. The majiority of English are going to have contempt for the peoples of Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Cornwall though as long as these occupations continue. The national liberation though of England's remaining colonies is a precondition for socialist revolution there though.

[Andropov]

And I think they were lunatics, too.
These people arent lunatics, they are just misguided Anti-Imperialists who are sucked into traditional Republicanism's dead end tactics.

The Baader-Meinher Gang was absolutly foaming batshit crazy.
Indeed.

Probably the only group I have any respect for right now is the EZLN, simply because they've drawn a clear line in the sand and will not cross it, but will defend it if need be.
So you only support defensive actions?
But to get to that defensive position they must have had to have had offensive operations?

They won't go stalking through the countryside hunting for goverment workers.
Are you suggesting the RIRA are stalking through Ireland looking fo government workers?

They also havent been on a rampage to try purge all the Spanish from Mexico...
Is this some sort of insinuation that Republicans are on a rampage to remove Protestants from Ireland?

Maybe these IRA groups could take a leaf out of thier books and just make a simple declaration that the British State is to stay out of Catholic areas in Northen Ireland and self-govern,
The cokes and contos could in no way pull off that logistical operation.
They neither have the membership to gaurd these areas from the Brits nor the weaponary.

then the ball's in the British State's court.
During the 70s and 80s there were no-go areas for the Brits without Saracens or landys.
The likes of South Armagh, Derry City, West Belfast etc etc.
But the government policy of the time was to remove the logistical advantage the INLA and PIRA had in operating in these no-go areas by building en-masse fortifications such as Army Barracks's and Police Barracks's.
By doing this they did indeed severly limit the efficiency of these organisations.

They cross that line in the sand then they'll be chased back over it. You'd actualy get some sympathy with that tactic I think.
So as you can see its been done before but the Brits policy was to reverse this at all costs to remove the effectivity of both the PIRA and INLA's sphere of operations in these areas.

[Palingenisis]

These people arent lunatics, they are just misguided Anti-Imperialists who are sucked into traditional Republicanism's dead end tactics.
.

In fairness comrade both the 32 csm and Republican Sinn Fein have their fair share of people who frankly are lunatics. Id imagine thats true also of the lads with the guns.

[fionntan]

Im gona have to ask this Who in the 32CSM is anti communist? And who In 32CSM are lunatics? Ill settle for one name or statement given from the said movement...

[Palingenisis]

It was not only a disgusting campaign, but an increadibly stupid one too that's done Ireland nothign but harm. If the objective was to become the most hated people by British workers at the time, then they suceeded.

.

Thats just not true. The biggest mistake the British state made during the troubles was allowing the Warrington bomb to go off...As horrible as it is to say this that action played a huge role in forcing the British state to make some pretty big reforms within the Union.

[Palingenisis]

Im gona have to ask this Who in the 32CSM is anti communist? And who In 32CSM are lunatics? Ill settle for one name or statement given from the said movement...

Look there are very good people in both Republican Sinn Fein and the 32 csm. There are also romantic nationalists and almost nihilistic militarists.

[Andropov]

Im gona have to ask this Who in the 32CSM is anti communist? And who In 32CSM are lunatics? Ill settle for one name or statement given from the said movement...
I can give you the name of one of your leading members who is very very anti-communist, in fact during the RFU we were told by her that we were not allowed to talk on issues regaurding Socialism or Communism, only on the National Question.
That is not to say that there arent Communists in the 32s, which I know there are but they arent running the 32s.
As for the lunatics remark, I dont buy that for a second.

[fionntan]

I attended all the IRFU meetings ironically along with members of the IRSP and the lady in question said nothing of the kind. And also has been a republican socialist all her adult life. Which you probably know consisted of languishing in British jails on hunger strike for her beliefs. You would need to get out more.

[Andropov]

I attended all the IRFU meetings ironically along with members of the IRSP and the lady in question said nothing of the kind. And also has been a republican socialist all her adult life.
Wrong.
The IRSP members were told specifically not to discuss any Socialist or Communist politics at these meetings.
This was partly the reason why we pulled the plug on the RFU.

Which you probably know consisted of languishing in British jails on hunger strike for her beliefs. You would need to get out more.
Hence why I wont mention her name on here.
Even though I disagree with her politics I still respect the woman.

[No pasarán]

Maybe these IRA groups could take a leaf out of thier books and just make a simple declaration that the British State is to stay out of Catholic areas in Northen Ireland and self-govern, then the ball's in the British State's court. They cross that line in the sand then they'll be chased back over it. You'd actualy get some sympathy with that tactic I think.

Ok.. I just deleted my previous reply before I posted cos I was gonna lay into you way to thick. The Liberation of Ireland is not about Religion. It is about freeing the people from British (and to some extent Irish) oprresion. Ok? In the past there were no go areas, bandit countries that the British army faced the absolute fiercest attack. But, these armed groups no longer have the firepower (some of it has been handed over) or the international support they once had, so that tactic is redundent now, the days of armed volunteers patroling in force are over.

[No pasarán]

As it was in Southern Mexico. They persisted though and it's paid off. They're now at the point that they've become so popular that the Mexican goverment dares not attack the Zapaitisas. It's not too late to go back and try this again.


All the pub bombings and shopping centre bombings in England achieved was that a new generation of English who previously wouldn't have cared if NI's garrisons were overrun, now saw the IRA as a bunch of child-murdering nutcases who cared nothing for human life. We went from not giving a damn, to outright hating the IRA, which was the green light for the British goverment to work out it could get away with further repression in Ireland without any sort of backlash from the English population, who were calling for the IRA's blood now.

I wouldnt even be suprised if it turned some Brits who'd previously not been involved got into donating to Loyalist Groups, or even joined the army. That's the kind of degree that the IRA fucked up on the war of hearts and minds.

It was not only a disgusting campaign, but an increadibly stupid one too that's done Ireland nothign but harm. If the objective was to become the most hated people by British workers at the time, then they suceeded.

I sympathise with the idea of a united socialist Ireland on the grounds of no-borders, but this was quite possibly the dumbest thing that the IRA ever did and took them BACKWARDS in trying to get to that goal.

I will try to keep this on topic as much as posible.

Your 25 right Hannah? I'm a year older than you, so I'm not old enough to have experinced this- but into the 80s it was not that unusual to see signs that said NO BLACKS, NO DOGS, NO IRISH. A LOT of English people were very predujuced towards the irish anyways, long before the troubles. I have spent most of my life in Britain but I am old enough to remember the racisim my dad and his family suffered for their Ulster accents- sometimes as well from irish people, altough they often then wanted to be his best friend when they found out his was a republican. But I also remember english people who supported the irish right to be liberated. I remember the troops out of northern ireland marches (and the stewards who I would later find out were largely made up of AFA* members). My mum is from Wexford- the other end of the country, but still suffered for her accent. I also grew up largely in London in an Irish community and it wasn't until I left London that I realised things were the same across the whole country (although in most citys there is a large irish community).

As for the actions and the campaign or the armed republicans in the uk, well I don't agree with a fair few things they did, but the finacial targets and the political targets I do. I think the world would be a better place if they had killed Thatcher, I really do and I could give other examples of bombings and actions here I agree with. Also it has gradualy come out that there was a lot of black ops being carried out by the British goverment and that on more than one occasion they deliberately did not heed the warnings and that were given as well as sustained propaganda campaign against republicans armed or otherwise. Would you like me to source that last sentance or will you take my word on it?

I do not agree with most of what the RIRA does, I think this bombing was more considered than somethings they have done, but it will have little effect in the long term because they can't carried out the sustained campaign the PIRA (and to a lesser extent INLA) did. The British goverment has admited. Irish Liberation should not about religion or race or even nationaly, it should be about liberating the people who live on that island. There have been protestants, catholics, socialists, communists, anachists, men, women and children heavily involed in the irish struggle for freedom for over 800 years. The expresions Tiocfaidh ár lá (our will come) and Beidh an lá linn (the day will be with us), in my eyes can and should be applied to everyone, not just the Irish. Sorry for the rant and I know you've already had other people pull your reponses apart but I thought it was important to give you a bit more background on the situation cos you seemed a little ignorant about the realities.

*Anti Fascist Action for those who don't know, admitably had a high no of members who were of some sort of irish origins. Quite a few were Irish economic migrants as well.

[Devrim]

That doesn't make it sectarian. When the Brigate Rosse, RAF, Action Directe or DHKP/C (pick any leftist armed group actually) targeted the state apperatus it would be used by conservatives and reactionaries to create an image of a bloody 'red terror' in the public minds.

If we look at DHKP/C nowadays I don't think that they do enough nowadays to be used to create an image of 'Red Terror'. In the past five years, I can remember a couple of failed suicide bombs, a girl blowing herself up in a toilet in an Ankara bar before going to a bombing, and another when a guy blew himself up by accident on the bus in İstanbul on the way to a bombing* killing a few people in the process.

Devrim

*I ask you, who takes the bus on the way to doing a bombing.

[Devrim]

but into the 80s it was not that unusual to see signs that said NO BLACKS, NO DOGS, NO IRISH.

Actually it was. You couldn't see any of those things in 80s Britain. If you go back to the early 1970s you say NBNI* in classified ads for houses to rent, but the 1976 race relations act made them illegal, which is not to say people would rent you a flat if you were black or Irish, but they couldn't write it in the newspaper.

That is not to say that these sort of signs were not seen in Britain earlier. The Conservative Party used a slogan ""If you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour" in a 1964 by-election, but I don't think you saw them in the 1980s.

Devrim

*No Blacks, No Irish

[Devrim]

I didn't say this bombing was sectarian in itself. I said "I do also see it as playing a role in increasing sectarianism."I agree it might, however, I think the chances are slim as the targets where obviously military in nature rather than aimed at loyalist organisations or governemental targets, which might have been a political disaster.

And do you think that reactionary loyalists are not running around at this very moment trying to stoke up sectarianism, and scare people by telling them things like "they will be bombing pubs again soon"?

Devrim

[Devrim]

Yeah and Im sure the Workers Solidarity Movement believe that teaching childern traditional Irish dancing plays a role in increasing sectarianism....

You keep going on about the WSM. Actually I think they are pretty soft of Republicanism, and wouldn't say anything like that.

Devrim

[Palingenisis]

You keep going on about the WSM. Actually I think they are pretty soft of Republicanism, and wouldn't say anything like that.

Devrim

Define being soft on Republicanism?

http://inniu.wordpress.com/2008/10/28/worn-slogans-of-econonism/

http://inniu.wordpress.com/2008/11/04/royal-irish/

Those are two good articles dealing with their relationship to the national liberation struggle.

They have a pretty negative attitude to expressions of Irish cultural identity which they see as inherently reactionary (as opposed of course to the creations of the capitalist cultural industry which are "Progressive").

[Palingenisis]

And do you think that reactionary loyalists are not running around at this very moment trying to stoke up sectarianism, and scare people by telling them things like "they will be bombing pubs again soon"?

Devrim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70bD1IsoRjM

But would should people stop political activity because it gets reactionaries worked up?

[Devrim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70bD1IsoRjM

I can't see your link as YouTube is banned in this country.


But would should people stop political activity because it gets reactionaries worked up?

No, certainly not. I don't think that there is anything positive about these sort of actions at all anyway. In addition to that I think they play a role in increasing sectarian tension.

Devrim

[Palingenisis]

I can't see your link as YouTube is banned in this country.


Loyalists find anything Irish "offensive" and "sectarian". If people worried to much about offending them we would be in serious trouble (witness the Dublin chattering classes).

The youtube video was of Willie Frazer who regularly engages in anti-republican rants that are very entertaining.

What do you mean by soft on Republicanism?

[Devrim]

Define being soft on Republicanism?

If you are interested these two old threads on Libcom discuss it:
http://libcom.org/forums/thought/for-john-how-is-the-wsm-soft-on-nationalism

http://libcom.org/forums/thought/wsm-hard-for-nationalism-the-saga-continues



http://inniu.wordpress.com/2008/10/28/worn-slogans-of-econonism/

http://inniu.wordpress.com/2008/11/04/royal-irish/


Those are two good articles dealing with their relationship to the national liberation struggle.

If you want to discuss their positions on this, I think it is better to go to what they say themselves rather than what some Maoists say about them.


They have a pretty negative attitude to expressions of Irish cultural identity which they see as inherently reactionary (as opposed of course to the creations of the capitalist cultural industry which are "Progressive").

I never got that impression from them. I do think that 'expressions of cultural identity' tend to be reactionary though.

Devrim

[Palingenisis]

I never got that impression from them. I do think that 'expressions of cultural identity' tend to be reactionary though.

Devrim

Why?

You think its better for people to adopt the psychopathic anglo-american "pop culture"?

[Palingenisis]

Nihilism anyone?

[Hoggy_RS]

You keep going on about the WSM. Actually I think they are pretty soft of Republicanism, and wouldn't say anything like that.

Devrim

I saw this article from the ICC on the WSM, http://en.internationalism.org/wr/316/wsm . To claim the WSM are nationalist is ridiculous.

[No pasarán]

Actually it was. You couldn't see any of those things in 80s Britain. If you go back to the early 1970s you say NBNI* in classified ads for houses to rent, but the 1976 race relations act made them illegal, which is not to say people would rent you a flat if you were black or Irish, but they couldn't write it in the newspaper.

That is not to say that these sort of signs were not seen in Britain earlier. The Conservative Party used a slogan ""If you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour" in a 1964 by-election, but I don't think you saw them in the 1980s.

Devrim

*No Blacks, No Irish

Point taken, I would change 80s to 70s, but then it would mean your comment on it wouldn't make sense to anyone who had be following the thread. But my parents did experince that sort of rascism.

[know2b]

I can't see your link as YouTube is banned in this country.

Devrim

You can bypass that:

(1) Download the Tor bundle for your operating system: torproject.org/easy-download.html.en (this link will send you to https, if you can't view those where you live then remove the s and add the www, sorry but I can't post links yet)

(2) Once you've got your Tor-enabled Firefox running, visit this page and follow the bookmarklet instructions: deturl.com/bookmarklet-to-directly-download-videos-from-youtube.asp

(3) Go to view a video. The site will use the IP Tor sends you through to present you with an appropriate language which you may not understand. Ignore that. The site will prompt you to install or upgrade plugins. Ignore that. Just wait for the page to load, then click your bookmarklet. Eventually (it may take a while) you will see a yellow bar with download options. Right-click "standard flv" and save it. It will take much longer than your normal download speed (read the Tor docs to understand why). If it appears that you've downloaded a useless htm file, don't worry, it contains the flash video.

(4) Download VLC player for your operating system: videolan.org/vlc/

(5) Open the htm file with VLC.

You probably won't find this convenient enough for idle entertainment like music videos, but for political videos which you deem important I hope you'll find it helpful.

[BOZG]

I saw this article from the ICC on the WSM, http://en.internationalism.org/wr/316/wsm . To claim the WSM are nationalist is ridiculous.

I believe there was actually a significant debate in the WSM over their position on the Corrib gas field and whether they should call for "nationalisation" or not.

[Devrim]

You can bypass that:

Yes, I know thanks. I usually use this:
Ktunnel.com FOR YOUTUBE (http://www.ktunnel.com/)
but I can't follow the links.
Devrim

[MaoTseHelen]

And do you think that reactionary loyalists are not running around at this very moment trying to stoke up sectarianism, and scare people by telling them things like "they will be bombing pubs again soon"?

Devrim
Do you think fear of reactionaries is a good enough reason to be cowed?

[Raightning]

My (Irish) grandfather came to Britain in the 50s, and the "No dogs, no blacks, no Irish" signs were out in force back then. Anti-Irish racism far predates the Troubles or anything like that, that's for sure.

[Devrim]

Do you think fear of reactionaries is a good enough reason to be cowed?

No, I merely said it as an aside. It is one of the results. I think that attacks like this have nothing to offer the working class, and that the people behind them are equally reactionary and anti-working classw as the Loyalists. They are the sort of people who shoot down Pizza delivery men saying, "collaborating with the British by servicing them".

Devrim

[MaoTseHelen]

No, I merely said it as an aside. It is one of the results. I think that attacks like this have nothing to offer the working class, and that the people behind them are equally reactionary and anti-working classw as the Loyalists. They are the sort of people who shoot down Pizza delivery men saying, "collaborating with the British by servicing them".

Devrim
Then the method needs to be reformed. The movement itself and violence in itself is hardly reactionary or against working class interests - the last 40 years of it are the only reason nationalists don't need to trip on either being burned out or having no vote.

[Devrim]

Then the method needs to be reformed. The movement itself and violence in itself is hardly reactionary or against working class interests - the last 40 years of it are the only reason nationalists don't need to trip on either being burned out or having no vote.

As I am pretty sure you know, I think that the movement was reactionary. Armed Republican groups didn't stop people being burnt out either. What stopped people being burnt out in the end was the extreme segregation of residential areas. Basically it was that the majority of people living in mixed areas had moved and there was virtually nobody left to burn out.

Devrim

[The Grey Blur]

I wouldn't agree with that Devrim though you're generally correct on the north. There's no doubting from first hand accounts that further pogroms during and after the events of Bombay St etc were avoided by republican gun-men defending their areas. I know Militant called for a cross-community "worker's militia" to defend working-class areas from sectarian attack on both sides of the divide which (though I'm sure you'd disagree with their line) shows the reality of the situation on the ground. No doubt the insitutionalisation of sectarianism and the peace walls etc were the final sorry solution to sectarian pogroms.

Reading through the thread it worries me the degree of political immaturity the IRSP/Republican Socialist posters display. We can most all agree that these sorts of actions are useless yet there is still a lingering degree of exitement at the bomb or a refusal to condemn the action. Individual terrorism (the degree to which the Provo/INLA campaigns constituted this I'm willing to debate, but this is certainly an example) is useless for the reasons that have been outlined again & again - first of all M15 has the resources to repair and replace any damage done to their buildings or members tomorrow, it plays into the hands of sectarian demogogues (on both sides), it reenforces the false idea that all anti-GFA agreement socialists or republican see the armed struggle as the only way forward, and it gives a free hand to the state to institute repressive measures which might target real workers' struggles. I'm worried about the cheerleading and the political immaturity the republican socialists on this board display, whether from Ireland or outside it. There seems to be a lack of focus on anything outside sectarian republican splinter groups, pointless terrorist actions, and a scary streak of nationalist romantic hagiography. I'm sympathetic to the RSYM and intend to get in touch with them in Belfast but some of you on this board are rightly what Jolly Red Giant would call 'headbangers'.

[Devrim]

I wouldn't agree with that Devrim though you're generally correct on the north. There's no doubting from first hand accounts that further pogroms during and after the events of Bombay St etc were avoided by republican gun-men defending their areas.

I think that if you look at the results of of the campaign of ethnic clensing it did basically segregate residential areas in the North. The thing about the campaign of burning out was that it wasn't just the actual burnings out that made people move. Many more people moved because of the threats and intimidation and the prospect of being burnt out than actually had their homes set alight. Basically it stopped when a certain level of segregation was reached. This was impossible to stop, even if mass manifestations and pogroms possibly were.


I know Militant called for a cross-community "worker's militia" to defend working-class areas from sectarian attack on both sides of the divide which (though I'm sure you'd disagree with their line) shows the reality of the situation on the ground.

I think that it was about as realistic as their calls for a 'socialist labour government'. It is the same thing in Palestine today. Calls for a 'socialist federation of the Middle East' are just completely empty and meaningless.
The Militant is a funny mixture of extreme pragmatism alongside impossible demands.


Reading through the thread it worries me the degree of political immaturity the IRSP/Republican Socialist posters display. We can most all agree that these sorts of actions are useless yet there is still a lingering degree of exitement at the bomb or a refusal to condemn the action.

In general I agree, though to be fair to them, some have been quite clear about this:


These Republicans who continue to attempt to wage armed conflict in Ireland are only getting young misguided working class lads shot and imprisoned for decades for sweet fuck all.
These actions are worth nothing in the present context,...


I agree it is a dead end and i'd disagree with this action as it does nothing to further our cause.

Devrim

[Palingenisis]

There seems to be a lack of focus on anything outside sectarian republican splinter groups, pointless terrorist actions, and a scary streak of nationalist romantic hagiography. I'm sympathetic to the RSYM and intend to get in touch with them in Belfast but some of you on this board are rightly what Jolly Red Giant would call 'headbangers'.

From an international point of view campaigning for the Labour Party is worse than useless.

What do you mean by "sectarian republican splinter groups"?

The 32 csm, the RNU and RSF are not sectarian.

[Palingenisis]

No, I merely said it as an aside. It is one of the results. I think that attacks like this have nothing to offer the working class, and that the people behind them are equally reactionary and anti-working classw as the Loyalists. They are the sort of people who shoot down Pizza delivery men saying, "collaborating with the British by servicing them".

Devrim

Would the ICC say that the Klu Klux Klan and the Black Panther Party were equally reactionary?

[Andropov]

Reading through the thread it worries me the degree of political immaturity the IRSP/Republican Socialist posters display.
Link?

We can most all agree that these sorts of actions are useless yet there is still a lingering degree of exitement at the bomb or a refusal to condemn the action.
Where is this lingering excitement?

seems to be a lack of focus on anything outside sectarian republican splinter groups, pointless terrorist actions, and a scary streak of nationalist romantic hagiography.
What are you on about?

I'm sympathetic to the RSYM and intend to get in touch with them in Belfast but some of you on this board are rightly what Jolly Red Giant would call 'headbangers'.
Who are these "headbangers"?

[The Grey Blur]

Like I said, it was a general feeling. It's easy to cheerlead the armed struggle from the south, I wonder if you lot have ever spoken to an ex-provo or ex-INLA volunteer? most of them eschew the romanticism you guys indulge in...it was a dirty war.

I didn't say to campaign for labour...bit of a jump there. When I see the 32CSM on a picket line, when the /RNU/all these other groups adopt a turn towards the organised working class then I'll consider them anything other than yet another sectarian republican splinter group with politics about as developed as 'brits out now'. Serious republican socialists need to take the lead from the Ta Power document, from Gerry Ruddy's recent articles or you are going to be left behind yet again...you can respect the armed struggle without fetishizing it.

[Boru]

That's your opinion, and that's fine. I just don't see anything wrong with what the Real IRA are doing or not doing..

1. Creating a poor and defeatable alternative that disgruntled Irish Republicans can turn to instead of the movement. Northern Ireland will never be reunited with the Irish Republic if it isn't capable of sustaining itself to some degree, which won't happen if it's in bits.

2. Continuing the BS sectarian crap that has plagued the Left in Northern Ireland for a century and more. There have been very few occasions where cross-community workers action has occurred, and why? The "national" question.

3. Criminal incompetence in terms of strategy.
Yes, blowing up a car in front of MI5 HQ is a bombing, and it's scary, but it won't change jack shit.

4. Criminal incompetence in terms of aim.
The RIRA aren't what I'd call socialist to be honest, they want to change "the colour of the flag and the accents of the powerful" if you ask me..

Then there's the whole possibility of killing civilians towards that aim, which helps nothing.

[IrishWorker]

Like I said, it was a general feeling. It's easy to cheerlead the armed struggle from the south, I wonder if you lot have ever spoken to an ex-provo or ex-INLA volunteer? most of them eschew the romanticism you guys indulge in...it was a dirty war.

I didn't say to campaign for labour...bit of a jump there. When I see the 32CSM on a picket line, when the /RNU/all these other groups adopt a turn towards the organised working class then I'll consider them anything other than yet another sectarian republican splinter group with politics about as developed as 'brits out now'. Serious republican socialists need to take the lead from the Ta Power document, from Gerry Ruddy's recent articles or you are going to be left behind yet again...you can respect the armed struggle without fetishizing it.
All members of the RSYM on this board have indeed meet many leading figures in the IRSM during political schools, many of these leading figures are not only ex-INLA vols but ex-INLA leadership figures who have left these RSYM comrades in no doubt at the futility of "armed conflict" with the British in the current political climate in Ireland.
It indeed was/is a dirty war controlled by British intel and these young comrades in the RSYM are in no doubt about that yet they show a great degree of political maturity in not wading in like some ill informed and deluded
Sinn Fein youth members condemning everyone around them yet not having a clue why these attacks continue to happen.
The RSYM comrades understand why these bombs are happening and know that they will continue to happen until the daily sectarian politics of the occupied six counties ends the IRSM has laid out its stall and have unequivocally said that "war" is not the way forward yet the IRSM will refuse to condemn those who still attack the British instead of building walls with the volunteers who are carrying out these attacks the IRSM will engage in dialog with their political representatives and try and persuade them to end their campaigns.
The RSYM are nobody's fools chara.

[Palingenisis]

I didn't say to campaign for labour...bit of a jump there. When I see the 32CSM on a picket line, when the /RNU/all these other groups adopt a turn towards the organised working class then I'll consider them anything other than yet another sectarian republican splinter group with politics about as developed as 'brits out now'. Serious republican socialists need to take the lead from the Ta Power document, from Gerry Ruddy's recent articles or you are going to be left behind yet again...you can respect the armed struggle without fetishizing it.


The Republican Network for Unity have been very involved in supporting striking workers. Members of the 32 county sovergeinity movement are also very involved in defending what rights workers' do have in the capitalist work place. While not all certainly most of the 32ers Ive come across have been very left wing. Calling for an end of the British occupation- and guess who bares the burnt of it? Yes the working class- does not a sectarian make. Your serious slander is worthy of the capitalist media but just what we would expect from a supporter of an organization one of who's leader went on national television to offer to tout working class people who had defended a mostly working class crowd from Thatcher's boys in blue.

[Palingenisis]

Like I said, it was a general feeling. It's easy to cheerlead the armed struggle from the south, I wonder if you lot have ever spoken to an ex-provo or ex-INLA volunteer? most of them eschew the romanticism you guys indulge in...it was a dirty war.
.

This from someone who supports an organization that romanticizes Trotsky?

The man more or less directly responsible for the excesses of the Red Army in the Russian civil war? Now that was a dirty war.

Funny also how your organization also isnt beyond romanticizing Che....A militarist adventurist if ever there was one and not much different from the worst type in the 32s or RSF.

[MaoTseHelen]

Should be said that there's been a slew of carbombs since this one.

[Andropov]

Like I said, it was a general feeling. It's easy to cheerlead the armed struggle from the south, I wonder if you lot have ever spoken to an ex-provo or ex-INLA volunteer? most of them eschew the romanticism you guys indulge in...it was a dirty war.
WTF are you on about?
Give me a link to where I was eschewing romantacism or cheerleading armed struggle?
And stating "a general feeling" doesnt cut it.
Do you want me to start posting about my "general feelings" with regaurds yourself?
No, ill at least have the integrity to not distort and misrepresent someone else's arguement and debate with them on what they actually stated.

[Andropov]

Link?


Where is this lingering excitement?



What are you on about?


Who are these "headbangers"?
Also Grey Blur could you please answer my questions here and back up your assertions?

[Jolly Red Giant]

The 32 csm, the RNU and RSF are not sectarian.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[RebelDog]

It is strange how the Republican Socialsts say that the armed struggle offers no way forward today, but they still get a little excited when a bomb goes off.

Do IRSP members think this sort of action has anything to offer the working class?

Devrim

It might offer the working class little or nothing but I like seeing the MI5 gangsters getting a wee taste of their own medicine.

[t.shonku]

It might offer the working class little or nothing but I like seeing the MI5 gangsters getting a wee taste of their own medicine.
You are absolutely correct comrade,I just love seeing Imperialists get kicked,I don't know how other members would think about this but I do have a soft corner for the IRA.These peaceful Irish people have been oppressed by the crown for too long,the Irish people have the right to defend themselves by armed struggle.

[Devrim]

Would the ICC say that the Klu Klux Klan and the Black Panther Party were equally reactionary?

I don't think it is a question of who is 'more reactionary' or being 'equally reactionary'. The point is that they both were reactionary. That doesn't mean that one of them wasn't immediatly more dangerous to workers than the other.

Devrim

[Devrim]

It might offer the working class little or nothing but I like seeing the MI5 gangsters getting a wee taste of their own medicine.You are absolutely correct comrade,I just love seeing Imperialists get kicked,I don't know how other members would think about this but I do have a soft corner for the IRA.These peaceful Irish people have been oppressed by the crown for too long,the Irish people have the right to defend themselves by armed struggle.

A very 'wee taste', in fact I think that the only person injured was 'an elderly man walking near the barracks at the time'. The point is not whether you like seeing these sort of actions. I don't think that that many workers would have been crying if the IRA had got Thatcher in 1984 in the middle of the miners' strike. Nor did I shed any tears about when the INLA blew up Airey Neave in his car. I even laughed quite loudly when I first hear the joke about Mountbatten and dandruff.

The question is whether this sort of activity does anything to develop workers' class consciousness and struggles.

Devrim

[Palingenisis]

You are absolutely correct comrade,I just love seeing Imperialists get kicked,I don't know how other members would think about this but I do have a soft corner for the IRA.These peaceful Irish people have been oppressed by the crown for too long,the Irish people have the right to defend themselves by armed struggle.

The struggle of the "Naxalites" is known of and deeply respected in Irish Republicanism.

[t.shonku]

The struggle of the "Naxalites" is known of and deeply respected in Irish Republicanism.
Thanks comrade for showing solidarity with our cause:)

[The Grey Blur]

haha you guys think revleft is a debating club...i have enough politics in real life, my head is sore dealing with idiots every day i'm not going to come on and bang my head against the republican wall. good luck comrades.

[Palingenisis]

haha you guys think revleft is a debating club...i have enough politics in real life, my head is sore dealing with idiots every day i'm not going to come on and bang my head against the republican wall. good luck comrades.

What makes you think that?

Im sure that nearly all of us have come here in order to learn from others and so be able to move things forward in the real world.

You on the other hand have come on this thread and made several serious comments about others that when asked to back them up you respond in a frankly condescending and insulting manner....But also in a manner that more than illustrates the parasitical nature of the organizations which you support which resort to mockery when challenged.

I hope a mod takes note of your carry on.

[Andropov]

haha you guys think revleft is a debating club...i have enough politics in real life, my head is sore dealing with idiots every day i'm not going to come on and bang my head against the republican wall. good luck comrades.
You have not answered any of my questions what so ever.
You made claims and you have consistantly failed to substantiate them.
If you do believe that the IRSP members here are "lunatics" and "cheerlead" the cokes and contos then I would ask you to please provide evidence of these claims otherwise it can be dismissed as complete and utter unsubstantiated slander?

[The Grey Blur]

Yeah, that's what it is, I was trying to sully the good name of the 4 or 5 INLA revivalist nutcases on this site. Everything from your avatars to your manner of debate betray your political immaturity.

[Mindtoaster]

Everything from your avatars to your manner of debate betray your political immaturity.

"haha you guys think revleft is a debating club...i have enough politics in real life, my head is sore dealing with idiots every day i'm not going to come on and bang my head against the republican wall. good luck comrades."

Way to take up the banner of "political maturity" there

[The Grey Blur]

"haha you guys think revleft is a debating club...i have enough politics in real life, my head is sore dealing with idiots every day i'm not going to come on and bang my head against the republican wall. good luck comrades."

Way to take up the banner of "political maturity" there
Well to be fair I think I'd just spent the day politicising and then having a few pints so wasn't the most lucid, that post makes me cringe a bit. The point stands that most of the IRSP supporters (not all) on this forum are about as politically educated as a small child, the IRSP itself acknowledges the failure of their armed struggle yet these nutcases still defend it. I'd rescind that post like you say it was pretty immature, I think when you're in the thankless position of trying to win workers to socialism across the sectarian divide only to come online and see these nutters who have no experience of the troubles or its aftermath still defending the worst actions of the INLA (and going to the extent of comparing it with the Red Army!) you might get a bit irritated now & again.

[Hoggy_RS]

Well to be fair I think I'd just spent the day politicising and then having a few pints so wasn't the most lucid, that post makes me cringe a bit. The point stands that most of the IRSP supporters (not all) on this forum are about as politically educated as a small child, the IRSP itself acknowledges the failure of their armed struggle yet these nutcases still defend it. I'd rescind that post like you say it was pretty immature, I think when you're in the thankless position of trying to win workers to socialism across the sectarian divide only to come online and see these nutters who have no experience of the troubles or its aftermath still defending the worst actions of the INLA (and going to the extent of comparing it with the Red Army!) you might get a bit irritated now & again.

Armed struggle failed to attain the IRSM goals but that does not mean supporters will condemn all past operations by the INLA. The fact is the INLA were attempting to bring change in the north while ye were happily part of an establishment party.

I'd reckon the fact we can see through the bullshit of the CWI shows we have enough political education.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Armed struggle failed to attain the IRSM goals but that does not mean supporters will condemn all past operations by the INLA.
Does that mean the INLA would condemn some of the past operations of the INLA?


The fact is the INLA were attempting to bring change in the north while ye were happily part of an establishment party.
Yea right - let's bomb and shoot Protestants into a united Ireland.


I'd reckon the fact we can see through the bullshit of the CWI shows we have enough political education.
Enough political education to do what - wail on the internet that the IRSM is right and the CWI is wrong. The CWI told the IRSP 35 years ago that the 'armed struggle' was a dead end and would achieve nothing. It was and it didn't. The fact that it took 35 years for the INLA to figure that out does not bode well for the level of political education within the IRSM.

[No pasarán]

Yea right - let's bomb and shoot Protestants into a united Ireland.


Jesus Christ on a bike with a flat fuckin tire...

the INLA had several protestant members and were led by one at one time... do yer research. And read more of the thread. Protestants also have a long history in tryin to free eire from england.

I don't support everything the INLA did and I certaintly don't support everthing the Provos did. The RIRA etc are not helping the struggle. The liberation of the irish people is not about religion. It's about freeing the people from oppresion. Fuck the british goverment, the current irish one as well. Fuck the queen and fuck the pope. But free the people.

My Da is from a protestant belfast family, they raised him republican and he did the same for me.

[Palingenisis]

.

My Da is from a protestant belfast family, they raised him republican and he did the same for me.

My family is mixed too...Almost universally in Ireland the spilt between pro and anti Republicans is the spilt between left and right....But dont attempt making a smart alec Trot who has had much more education than either of us put together try to understand that. They can rant all they want but our liberation struggle is not sectarian!

[Jolly Red Giant]

My Da is from a protestant belfast family, they raised him republican and he did the same for me.
My father was a worker and labour man - he led by example, encouraged me to question every accepted norm and to figure out my own politicial views.

[No pasarán]

My father was a worker and labour man - he led by example, encouraged me to question every accepted norm and to figure out my own politicial views.

Mine did pretty much the same (encouraged me to think for myself). But I also agree with his atheist and most of his republican views.

You still didn't back up your unsubstantiated claim about republicans?

[No pasarán]

Well to be fair I think I'd just spent the day politicising and then having a few pints so wasn't the most lucid, that post makes me cringe a bit. The point stands that most of the IRSP supporters (not all) on this forum are about as politically educated as a small child, the IRSP itself acknowledges the failure of their armed struggle yet these nutcases still defend it. I'd rescind that post like you say it was pretty immature, I think when you're in the thankless position of trying to win workers to socialism across the sectarian divide only to come online and see these nutters who have no experience of the troubles or its aftermath still defending the worst actions of the INLA (and going to the extent of comparing it with the Red Army!) you might get a bit irritated now & again.

Has anyone else noticed that many of the 'anti-republicans' on here resort to name calling, completely misstate things and make unsubstatiated claims? I mean 'these nutters who have no experience of the troubles'.... Er most of the IRSM supporters on here live in ulster and are hardly a bunch of rock throwing wee spides/ skangers. In fact I'm guessing many are the other side of 30 so will defintely have lived through some of the troubles.

Instead of flaming, can you debate your points properly? I may not agree with many of Devrim's points but I certainly respect the fact his posts are written intelligently and he can point to his own background in ulster (I realise the poster I'm using as an example also has this, but isn't using it very effectively) as refference.

[Jolly Red Giant]

You still didn't back up your unsubstantiated claim about republicans?
With all due respect - what unsubstantiated claim did I make about repubicans?

[No pasarán]

Yea right - let's bomb and shoot Protestants into a united Ireland.


Some of the best known Protestants to fight to free Eire- Wolfe Tone, Jack White, Robert Emmet, Sam Maquire... the list could go on and on.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Some of the best known Protestants to fight to free Eire- Wolfe Tone, Jack White, Robert Emmet, Sam Maquire... the list could go on and on.
And the point you are trying to make is what?

[Palingenisis]

And the point you are trying to make is what?

That Irish Republicanism is not sectarian and that you are lying when you label it so.

Obviously.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Obviously.
Obviously - Wolfe Tone and the 1798 Rising is the same as the INLA and the past 40 years. Got it - how stupid of me.

Did you ever hear the saying 'one swallow does not a summer make'?

[No pasarán]

Ever heard of admitting you were wrong? I'm not askin you to become a republican, or even like them. Continue to hate for all I care. I couldn't givin a fuck to be honest. But don't make sweeping innaccurate generalisations and then when corrected by those who happen to be examples of the opposite of what you are claming is the case (and are able to back it up with pointing out other better known examples) not have the bollocks to admit you may have been wrong.

It is the imperalists and the church that like to divide and conquer. It is they that have forced the divide between the people, not the people themselves... the british state have poisoned the unionists against the irish, and the weak, bigoted, lazy irish goverment of the 'south' has done very little to rescuse those in the north or reach out to the unionists. I'm sure by now you've realised my views on religion so I don't feel the need to really restate my contempt for it other than fuck it and all of its leaders.

A prime example to me of how eire could chang to the better is the punk scene which has always been cross community. I have friends from both backgrounds in Belfast, one of the people I most admire is from a staunch unionist background, but has the guts to sing about being anti the ruc, the state, the church, and the paramillitarys. He has surrounded himself with friends from both communities. He is a prime example to me of the good in both communities. Eire needs more people like him to become unified as does the rest of the world. And in the small part of belfast that is the punk scene he is surrounded by like minds.

Where are you from by the way?

[The Grey Blur]

Has anyone else noticed that many of the 'anti-republicans' on here resort to name calling, completely misstate things and make unsubstatiated claims?
:laugh:

Well first of all I'm not anti-republican, I'd consider myself some sort of Marxist republican. Secondly, the IRSP supporters argument seems to be anyone who disagrees with them is a trendy-left-student-british-chauvinist so people in glass houses...and the reason I use 'nutters' is because I don't want to do disrespect to the half-decent Irps about on these boards and active in the offline world. I don't see where anyone in this thread has made any unsubstantiated claims - the Irps who still defend the armed struggle as some unbesmirchable campaign for national liberation that had popular support is the unsubstantiated claim. The point was emphasised a long time ago that a policy of putting the political struggle below the military would end in ruins, gangsterism and terrorism. And so it did. The best Irps themselves agree with this! Read the Ta Power document, read Gerry Ruddy's more recent writings. The sane Irps who don't glorify the armed struggle have moved on while these nutters haven't.


I mean 'these nutters who have no experience of the troubles'.... Er most of the IRSM supporters on here live in ulster and are hardly a bunch of rock throwing wee spides/ skangers. In fact I'm guessing many are the other side of 30 so will defintely have lived through some of the troubles.

Again you make the mistake of thinking I'm attacking the serious Irps, I'm attacking the eejits on this board (Palengenesis, Andropov, Hoggy RS) who all seem to be from the free state and seem to be the biggest bunch of fruitcakes I've ever had the misfortune of debating with. Their inability to view firsthand the results of the sectarian campaigns waged by the Provos and INLA allows them to attempt a safe revisionist view of the INLA. I respect the IRSP and even the INLA because I think their original founders were truly struggling to emphasise the class struggle along with the resistance to the British Army in the north, their problem was that they maintained the Stalinist stageist view of the national question taking precedent over the class struggle and of course as I said the degeneration of their political aims which ended up with the CRF murders, in-fighting, gangsterism etc.


Instead of flaming, can you debate your points properly?
Yes because I'm going to take the time to deconstruct the arguments of these little children which JRG and MarkP and anyone who has ever read a book on the north could refute. And I did offer reasoned criticisms at first, I wasn't making a political argument when I attacked the political and personal maturity of the ultra-Irps on the board just making a sorry observation.


he can point to his own background in ulster (I realise the poster I'm using as an example also has this, but isn't using it very effectively)
:laugh:

Well I was raised in Beechmount if that means anything to you. Just off RPG Avenue. But I suppose that experience is only used "effectively" if I endorse all those great pub bombings and shootings which have put back the cause of creating a non-sectarian working class party in the North by a hundred years. If you read my posts you'd realise that I have no ideological axe to grind here, I'm just disappointed in the level of the ultra-Irps on the boards who are still at my political level when I was 16, romanticising and glorifying what was a brutal and at times sectarian anti-Imperialist war. I'm also disappointed because if you read Gerry Ruddy's recent articles it's a real shining example of a left republican coming into the 21st century and making reasoned serious criticisms of both the traditional republican and 'trotskyist' views on the national question and other issues.

[No pasarán]

Well at least you came back with a more mature post. I hate when posters just descend into what is basicaly namecalling and shit flinging. I should of probably not used you specifically as an example but you made some pretty immature comments in my eyes.

But your not gonna be able to get people to see your opinion if you post like a bollox and just talk down to people. I don't think your an eejit, but I think your acting like one in this thread. I actuallly respect some of what you've posted elsewhere. But please give me an exact example of where the irps you're attacking have chosen to "endorse all those great pub bombings and shootings"? I've definately witnessed a broad disgust for actions from the likes of the CRF, the in fighting and the 'gangsters'.

I don't agree with all of the beliefs of the IRSM, or its supporters on here. But what makes you think someone from cork, to give an example, views on what goes on or went on in ulster are irrelevant. My dad is from New Lodge (left to escape the troubles) and even during the troubles we visited when we could tho to be honest we spent more time in Dublin if we were anywhere in eire.

[The Grey Blur]

But your not gonna be able to get people to see your opinion if you post like a bollox and just talk down to people
Fair enough, like I said that post was more of an emotional than a critical response, after a long day.


But please give me an exact example of where the irps you're attacking have chosen to "endorse all those great pub bombings and shootings"? I've definately witnessed a broad disgust for actions from the likes of the CRF, the in fighting and the 'gangsters'.
Well I guess I'll go a-searching if you really want some 'exact' examples...

In upholding the INLA's armed struggle to a delusional extent (apparently they are the equivalent to an Irish Red Army) as posters in this thread have done is an endorsement of the worst elements of that campaign - incidents like the Droppin' Well bombing or sectarian tit-for-tat killings. The argument JRG has been making to me is completely correct - incidents such as the CRF killings, the feuds and the gangsterism are the logical extension of subsuming a political response and organisation to an individual terrorist/military one. It wasn't "individual elements" or "opportunists infiltrators" but rather the logical finishing point for a movement which puts the gunman & the bomb above the working class and above inner democracy. The IRSP's one true theoretical document, the Ta Power Document, chimes with all these criticisms as do the more forward-thinking elements of left republicanism today.



I don't agree with all of the beliefs of the IRSM, or its supporters on here. But what makes you think someone from cork, to give an example, views on what goes on or went on in ulster are irrelevant. My dad is from New Lodge (left to escape the troubles) and even during the troubles we visited when we could tho to be honest we spent more time in Dublin if we were anywhere in eire.
Well I'm not, that would be a false "appeal to authority", I was countering your own invocation of Devrim's period spent in the North. The INLA-romanticism though got under my skin to the point though where I had to wonder whether these people have ever seen the peace walls, if they have any real experience of engagement with the sectarian divisions amongst the working class in the north which their armed struggle fostered and deepend a hundredfold. I can understand and critically support elements of the armed struggle, specifically the defense of catholic areas from attacks by loyalist mobs and the British Army, but you have to understand that as an anti-Imperialist tactic it was doomed to failure, that its legacy is of a deeper sectarian division than ever before. Specifically in the INLA's case acknowledgement must be made of the serious degeneration of the politics & discipline; reflected in the splits and feuds and criminality. That I have yet to meet an ex-volunteer with the sort of romantic attachment to that period that these folks express (politically & informally via their avatars, signatures, language) really led me to question the extent of their understanding/experience of the situation in the north.

[Hoggy_RS]

Again you make the mistake of thinking I'm attacking the serious Irps, I'm attacking the eejits on this board (Palengenesis, Andropov, Hoggy RS) who all seem to be from the free state and seem to be the biggest bunch of fruitcakes I've ever had the misfortune of debating with. Their inability to view firsthand the results of the sectarian campaigns waged by the Provos and INLA allows them to attempt a safe revisionist view of the INLA. I respect the IRSP and even the INLA because I think their original founders were truly struggling to emphasise the class struggle along with the resistance to the British Army in the north, their problem was that they maintained the Stalinist stageist view of the national question taking precedent over the class struggle and of course as I said the degeneration of their political aims which ended up with the CRF murders, in-fighting, gangsterism etc.
.
If you read some of my posts such as this...


Armed struggle failed to attain the IRSM goals but that does not mean supporters will condemn all past operations by the INLA

You can see that my view on the INLA is no different to any other IRSM member on here. You're attempts to discredit posters because they don't live in the north is pathetic. Am I only allowed to talk about things that happened in Cork City? Should you only be allowed to discuss Belfast/Canterbury? The INLA were never involved in sectarian murders and the claims about the CRF have been dealt with a 1000 times on here.

I was once in the SP too so don't be spoofing on with this "oh the irps on here are like me when i was 16" crap.

[Palingenisis]

I was once in the SP too so don't be spoofing on with this "oh the irps on here are like me when i was 16" crap.

The arrogance of Trots and of particularly CWI members/supporters is something else isnt it? Always talking down to and lecturing other people or "the working class"...Do you think he realises how condescending he comes across?

[Palingenisis]

:laugh:

Again you make the mistake of thinking I'm attacking the serious Irps, I'm attacking the eejits on this board (Palengenesis, Andropov, Hoggy RS) who all seem to be from the free state and seem to be the biggest bunch of fruitcakes I've ever had the misfortune of debating with. Their inability to view firsthand the results of the sectarian campaigns waged by the Provos and INLA allows them to attempt a safe revisionist view of the INLA. I respect the IRSP and even the INLA because I think their original founders were truly struggling to emphasise the class struggle along with the resistance to the British Army in the north, their problem was that they maintained the Stalinist stageist view of the national question taking precedent over the class struggle and of course as I said the degeneration of their political aims which ended up with the CRF murders, in-fighting, gangsterism etc.
.

1. If you were paying attention you would know that Im not an Irp and that Hoggy and Adropov are not romantic militarists.

2.The IRSP never held a "Stalinist" stages theory and also the term "Stalinist" is a pretty meaningless one.

[Palingenisis]

:laugh:

. I'm also disappointed because if you read Gerry Ruddy's recent articles it's a real shining example of a left republican coming into the 21st century and making reasoned serious criticisms of both the traditional republican and 'trotskyist' views on the national question and other issues.

I believe that Gerry Ruddy has either been kicked out of the Irps for acting the Trot or left because they all didnt fall down and whorship him the way Trots like to be treated.

Infact the IRSP should be severly criticised for not grasping the class nature of Trotskyism (as witnessed by allowing Gerry Ruddy's flirtation with the IMT and their decision to back Mc Cann).

[Palingenisis]

The Trot school of political discourse....Pick out any excesses, deviations or whatever done by a revolutionary movement or that a revolutionary movement has been accused of and keep repeating them ad nauseam and than throw in some insults "ultra-leftist", "sectarian", "Stalinist", "nutters", etc...And to top it off refer the above as "Marxist".

[The Grey Blur]

If you read some of my posts such as this...


You can see that my view on the INLA is no different to any other IRSM member on here. You're attempts to discredit posters because they don't live in the north is pathetic. Am I only allowed to talk about things that happened in Cork City? Should you only be allowed to discuss Belfast/Canterbury? The INLA were never involved in sectarian murders and the claims about the CRF have been dealt with a 1000 times on here.

I was once in the SP too so don't be spoofing on with this "oh the irps on here are like me when i was 16" crap.
Well then I applaud you for that, I suppose I made the crucial mistake of thinking Palengenesis is an IRSP supporter when apparently he's got his own mental ideology going on. I'm not saying you can't have an opinion on the North but that some of the delusional notions of the INLA expressed on this board could only come from a complete removal from the actual situation. I'm not in the SP either, and to be honest that's really how I feel; I moved from left romantic republicanism to a much more accurate and depressing understanding of the situation in Ireland as I grew older. The CRF attack was carried out with INLA guns, maybe you didn't get my point but the nature of individual terrorism as a tactic substituted for class struggle makes that sort of political degeneration inevitable. The INLA killed plenty of civilians which statistically must have included protestants, whether the intention was there or not these were sectarian killings which drove the protestant working-class into the arms of their own sectarian killers.


2.The IRSP never held a "Stalinist" stages theory and also the term "Stalinist" is a pretty meaningless one.
1) The term "Stalinist" is not a meaningless one, I'm not just throwing it out there for the craic, it was/is a trend within the international workers' movement subsumes the struggle for national liberation and socialism to petit-bourgeois elements, to build a Popular Front. It ignores the correct analysis of Trotsky that the native bourgeoisie are entirely tied to foreign capital and incapable of carrying out even the basic elements of the classic bourgeois revolutions.

2) This was the defining belief of the OIRA and what lead them to abandon any pretence of revolution and move towards reformism, to the extreme extent of offering cooperation with the British & Unionist state forces in NI. The IRSP as a split from the OIRA retained a lot of this baggage, and it has coloured their understanding of partition to this day. Their confused politics is also of course down to most of their best thinkers being murdered.


Infact the IRSP should be severly criticised for not grasping the class nature of Trotskyism (as witnessed by allowing Gerry Ruddy's flirtation with the IMT and their decision to back Mc Cann).
:laugh:

[32csmabu]

This bombing must be condemned as reactionary, as unpleasant as it is to sit on the same side as MI5 scum in any argument. I'm not opposed to the principle of physical force republicanism, and violence will have a role in the union of the island (loyalist thugs have already shown they're quite happy to take up arms to keep it disunited) under any sort of system, be it socialist or bourgeoise; but what exactly do attacks like this accomplish?

All that this seems to have brought about is wasted explosives. It's regrettable that the "Real" IRA and the 32CSM are prepared to carry out and endorse such tactics, and I'm always glad to see IRSP comrades refusing to endorse said tactics. The role of the republican socialist movement must be to win comrades who find themselves in such organisations as the 32CSM away from the reactionary RIRA way of operation.

I should note, mind, that the 32CSM may have its affiliations with reactionaries, but it shouldn't be dismissed as a reactionary organisation. It still does good work, and there are many good comrades within its ranks.
reactionary in the sense that it was a response to continued harassment and opression of republican communities perhaps, this was a strike against an imperialist spy outpost that has violated human rights since its inception. some people seem more content to side with the imperialists than the opposition. as for the 32csm they do not carry out military activity.

[Jolly Red Giant]

The arrogance of Trots and of particularly CWI members/supporters is something else isnt it? Always talking down to and lecturing other people or "the working class"...Do you think he realises how condescending he comes across?
I notice that you have dropped your praise of the CPI(ML) like a hot potato. It is astonishing that you have a cheek to criticise Trotskyists when you rave about a political party that supported the Ulster Workers Council strike.

[Palingenisis]

I notice that you have dropped your praise of the CPI(ML) like a hot potato. It is astonishing that you have a cheek to criticise Trotskyists when you rave about a political party that supported the Ulster Workers Council strike.

They might have made a mistake there...And so far Im only going on your word which isnt worth very much mo chara...But the fact is that had a conistently anti-Imperialist policy and your lot thought a solution would be bringing the Imperialist blood soaked "Labour Party" over into the six counties...Even the ICC attack you for having a crap postition on the north east of our nation...That should tell you something.

[Jolly Red Giant]

They might have made a mistake there...
you are suggesting that supporting the Ulster Workers Council strike 'MIGHT' have been a mistake - 'might' have been ????

Your rabid condemnation of trotskyism is far more definitive than that. Yet the CPI(ML) 'might' have made a mistake in supporting the UWC.


And so far Im only going on your word which isnt worth very much mo chara...
The support for the UWC was outlined in a pamphlet entitled “An Analysis of the Significance of the Ulster Workers’ Strike, May 14th – 30th, 1974″. The pamplet was initally produced on 27 August 1974 as “A Series of Articles from RED PATRIOT Editorial Staff”. The pamphlet was produced by the “Necessity for Change Institute of Anti-Imperialist Studies”, Dublin, a CPI(ML) group; printed by the All-Ireland Publishing House, c/o 10 Upper Exchange Street, Dublin (the CPI(ML) publisher) and distributed in Ireland by “Progressive Books & Periodicals” Dublin and distributed in Britain by the Workers’ Publications Centre, 569 Old Kent Road, London (the RCPB(ML) publisher). The quotations that I reproduced comes from one article in the pamphlet entitled “Strike of Ulster Workers Deals Severe Blow to the British Monopoly Capitalist Class and Marks Growing Revolutionary Trend amongst Ulster Workers”.

Take note of the fact that this pamphlet was not produced as a result of a sudden rush of blood to the head - but a full three months after the end of the strike. There could have been little doubt about the nature of the strike three months down the line, yet the CPI(ML) wrote this rubbish.


But the fact is that had a conistently anti-Imperialist policy and thought a solution would be bringing the Imperialist blood soaked "Labour Party" over into the six counties...Even the ICC attack you for having a crap postition on the north east of our nation...That should tell you something.
Coming from someone who lauds a rabid Stalinist party who supported the UWC, you really do not have a leg to stand on.

The CPI(ML) was noted for making sweeping generalised statements on all political topics in order not to open political disagreements within its ranks. It obliged new members to serve an extended probationary period (of up to 2 years) before being allowed into the inner sanctum of the party, funny when you think that at a high point they had about 20 people (almost all being students who came from very wealthy backgrounds). I am not aware of the CPI(ML) ever holding a party congress - the British equivalent RCPB(ML) has held four congresses in its 40+ years history. It was a rabid sectarian organisation who attacked the provos for not taking more militant action against the Protestant community. Fortunately it has been confinded to the dustbin of history.

[PRC-UTE]

RNU are alot more socially aware and more left wing than the 32CSM which has some notorious anti-communists.
Some of the cream of the crop in the 32CSM were previously the Provos who attacked and slandered the IRSM.
Their social policies amount to shooting drug dealers, and thats about it.
The rate at which Traditional Republicanism is splintering is alarming.

Notorious anti-communists alright- their leaders actually had the cheek to lecture the irps about carrying a red flag.

Several other dissidents I could think of have strong anti-communist views, and at least one of them I heard referred to as a 'professional red baiter'.

[Palingenisis]

Notorious anti-communists alright- their leaders actually had the cheek to lecture the irps about carrying a red flag.

Several other dissidents I could think of have strong anti-communist views, and at least one of them I heard referred to as a 'professional red baiter'.

Personally I think ultimately the 32s are useless because they have nothing much to give or say to us who live the Free State. Im thinking of a friend of mine whos dad supported the armed struggle during the "troubles" but voted for the Workers' Party due to "bread and butter" issues in Dublin. However most of the 32s I have come across would be radicially left. The focus on just the national question makes no sense in Ireland today however.

[PRC-UTE]

Personally I think ultimately the 32s are useless because they have nothing much to give or say to us who live the Free State. Im thinking of a friend of mine whos dad supported the armed struggle during the "troubles" but voted for the Workers' Party due to "bread and butter" issues in Dublin. However most of the 32s I have come across would be radicially left. The focus on just the national question makes no sense in Ireland today however.

All the 32's I've ever spoken to would be pretty dismissive, even mocking of class struggle and socialism. I've heard some strongly anti-communist views from them, along the lines of 'communism never worked and never will'. Maybe I've just met the wrong ones, but I've still yet to meet one irl who I would describe as even vaguely progressive.

[Palingenisis]

All the 32's I've ever spoken to would be pretty dismissive, even mocking of class struggle and socialism. I've heard some strongly anti-communist views from them, along the lines of 'communism never worked and never will'. Maybe I've just met the wrong ones, but I've still yet to meet one irl who I would describe as even vaguely progressive.

Well "merle haggard" who posts regularly on politics.ie when he isnt banned is very left-wing. Maybe they are different in the 6 counties.

[Palingenisis]

http://www.32csm.info/links.html

Their links page is also pretty left wing....It even features the main Maoist group in England!