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Dimentio
12th April 2010, 11:10
I think it is quite simplicistic to claim that capitalism was born in the French revolution of 1789, neither does it address why the Bourgeoisie took power just then. It is quite fair to assume that the bourgeois class did not come into being in 1789 or even in the 18th century, but had existed for a long time in western Europe when the French Revolution occurred.

Urban revolutions had happened before in Europe during the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries, as well as peasant uprisings. The difference between urban revolutions and peasant uprisings was that the peasants often rallied against injustices of the moment and wanted to overthrow "the evil advisors of the good king", where as the urban uprisings often wanted to transfer power from the landed aristocracy to the burghers of the city, either by creating some form of parliament or an overhaul of the existing order.

The French Revolution of 1789 was a bourgeois revolution, but I would argue it hardly was the first bourgeois revolution. In Prague in the 1410's, the burghers overthrew the monarchy and installed some form of republic, as well as in Florence in the 1490's and in Münster in the 1530's. These early burgher-led revolutions were mostly expressed in a search for religious and doctrinal purity, against the corruption of the Catholic Church and the political authorities.

The most successful of these experiments was the Cromwell regime in England, which managed to actually bring a small fundamentalist cult into power, by the support of the English urban population (who later abandoned the new government quickly when it became even more repressive than the earlier absolutist monarchy).

I think the pre-French revolutions were a failure not because of ideological confusion (radical protestantism), but because the means of production and the technology had not been properly developed to sustain such experiments for a long time. What happened in each of these revolutions was that power naturally gravitated back due to the shortcomings of the economy (it was still too agrarian to be able to sustain a bourgeoisie with vast economic influence).

It was first in the late 17th and the early 18th century when the establishment of centralised governments created an opportunity for burghers to exercise influence in bureaucracy. The economy also grew tremendously with focus on overseas trade during that time, creating the opportunity for the industrial revolution to occur in the late 18th century.

I think that is relevant for us today because we are in the beginning of a new series of technological innovations which are rendering capitalism moot. I am for example thinking about the reprap machines, open source technology and the fact that the working class in general today are faster to apply new technologies than the bourgeoisie are able to stop them.

I don't think revolutions are born out of squalor. On the contrary, impoverished proletariats overthrowing their governments are often just establishing another part of the elite as their rulers. It is first when a class has long experience of the exercise of the control of the means of production as it dares to establish political control.

The French Revolution was probably the last step in the establishment of capitalism, not the first step. Political power is the expression of economic power, not the other way around (except for in patrimonial and absolutistic palace economies).

flobdob
12th April 2010, 13:04
I don't know anyone who claims the French revolution was the first Bourgeois revolution. Rather it is the greatest and purest example of one.

ComradeOm
12th April 2010, 18:42
I don't know anyone who claims the French revolution was the first Bourgeois revolution. Rather it is the greatest and purest example of one.This. The OP is attacking a strawman


The French Revolution was probably the last step in the establishment of capitalism, not the first step. Political power is the expression of economic power, not the other way around (except for in patrimonial and absolutistic palace economies).You were doing relatively well until this point. A capitalist revolution is does not proceed from either political or economic 'power' but is rather a product of a confluence of factors (ie, political, social, economic, geographic, etc). Viewing it as 'first economic and then political', or vice versa, is mistaken. To build on the example provided, the political conquest of power by the French bourgeoisie did allow for the creation of a true capitalist economy by clearing away many of the feudal fetters that constrained economic development. In contrast, France in 1789 did not possess a predominately capitalist economy

Dimentio
12th April 2010, 20:14
This. The OP is attacking a strawman

You were doing relatively well until this point. A capitalist revolution is does not proceed from either political or economic 'power' but is rather a product of a confluence of factors (ie, political, social, economic, geographic, etc). Viewing it as 'first economic and then political', or vice versa, is mistaken. To build on the example provided, the political conquest of power by the French bourgeoisie did allow for the creation of a true capitalist economy by clearing away many of the feudal fetters that constrained economic development. In contrast, France in 1789 did not possess a predominately capitalist economy

Neither did England. Probably, capitalism would have prevailed even without a violent revolution, though it would have taken longer time.

Neither did I imply that the French revolution was the first bourgeois revolution or that someone is claiming that. What I am claiming is that progressives often focus very much on the political aspects of change, when it in reality are other factors which are determinent.

What would have happened if the French revolution never had happened? Probably, the absolutist monarchy would have vanished slowly. It wasn't until 1870 when France definetely became a republic.

Raúl Duke
12th April 2010, 20:35
The French Revolution was probably the last step in the establishment of capitalism, not the first step. Political power is the expression of economic power, not the other way around (except for in patrimonial and absolutistic palace economies).


You were doing relatively well until this point.

I agree with ComradeOm

The first French Revolution lead to degeneration and did not assure the bourgeoisie 100% of political power. I don't see it as the last, just the least "confused" revolution relative to the prior ones that had more to do with religion than the liberal ideology of the bourgeoisie. Aristrocrats and landowners still held a substantial, if not the majority, of power. It wasn't till the 19th century were we see that the bourgeoisie firmly establish power over the remnants of feudalism in many parts of continential Europe. Examples could be the formation of the French 3rd Republic (and even beforehand the French bourgeoisie was gaining more power), etc. I

Dimentio
12th April 2010, 21:05
Yes, but I think the final breakthrough of bourgeois power was in the period between the july revolution and the revolutions of 1848. First a hundred years later, the last remains of l'ancien regime were purged by the help of the Americans following the fall of the Vichy regime.

ComradeOm
13th April 2010, 19:50
What I am claiming is that progressives often focus very much on the political aspects of change, when it in reality are other factors which are determinentWell yes, but, to be blunt, that's hardly a revelation. I think its safe to say that we are all in agreement with that here. I also do feel from your post that you've swung too far the other way and are approaching vulgar Marxism territory in which economics, divorced from their social or political context, are the primary determinant


What would have happened if the French revolution never had happened? Probably, the absolutist monarchy would have vanished slowlyAnd the very existence of an ancien regime would have had profound effects on French economic development. You underestimate the incredible structural changes that the Revolution (and Napoleon) unleashed on France. Political revolution/reform does significantly impact the economic sphere just as the reverse also happens

As an aside, the French ruling classes under Napoleon III, regardless of any imperial titles, were as bourgeois as any in Europe. 1870 was primarily a change at the top

Dimentio
14th April 2010, 11:41
Yes, I am in agreement that France already in the 1830's was a bourgeois society. Without a French revolution though, it is likely to assume that the monarchy would have needed to reform itself in order to be able to compete with the UK. France maybe would have been poorer, but the world would nevertheless have become capitalist.

A.J.
16th April 2010, 12:25
I don't know anyone who claims the French revolution was the first Bourgeois revolution. Rather it is the greatest and purest example of one.

Surely the English revolution of the 17th century could be considered *initially* a "pure" bourgeois revolution too, politically as well as economically, in that all the principle features of the feudal superstructure - monarchy, privvy council and house of lords - were abolished when the Commonwealth(a de facto republic) was established in 1649.

Only in 1660 when the monarchy - with much reduced legisltive powers - was restored did things become a lot less clear cut.

Dimentio
16th April 2010, 17:37
Surely the English revolution of the 17th century could be considered *initially* a "pure" bourgeois revolution too, politically as well as economically, in that all the principle features of the feudal superstructure - monarchy, privvy council and house of lords - were abolished when the Commonwealth(a de facto republic) was established in 1649.

Only in 1660 when the monarchy - with much reduced legisltive powers - was restored did things become a lot less clear cut.

Really, the English constitutional crisis was only fully solved in 1688.

A.J.
19th April 2010, 13:02
Really, the English constitutional crisis was only fully solved in 1688.

Tell me what part of my post was inaccurate.