Extropianism?

[Invincible Summer]

So I visited the Anarcho-Transhumanist site (http://www.anarcho-transhumanism.com/) and it states that it is not extropian as "It does not believe in optimistic futurism."

I looked up extropianism on wiki, and it defined it as such:

Extropians believe that advances in science and technology will some day let people live indefinitely and that humans alive today have a good chance of seeing that day.


Maybe I'm just naive, but aren't all Transhumanists sort of Extropian to an extent?

[Dimentio]

I am very critical of transhumanism because of its idealistic notions and the general fact that the transhumanist movement is filled with anarcho-capitalist and proto-fascist elements. Most transhumanist organisations are basically really working as a hideout for the geeks of the geeks (geekiness is a trait which there is too little of in the world in general, but even too much of the good could become bad). Having debated and discussed with transhumanists through various channels, I have come to the conclusion that for the moment, the transhumanist movement at large is about as efficient as a rottening dead goat laying in the sun a hot summer's day.

One example is a movement known as "The Order of Cosmic Engineers". They wanted to create this own nation-state out of an island they were going to build themselves. Drawing fantastic plans to acquire the funds, they reached the conclusion that they couldn't start it since no one individually possessed the funds to make it possible. It did not even occur to them that funds could be pooled together.

So, their goal is now reduced to sitting and waiting for the singularity to occur while talking endlessly about semantics. Semantics which would make the Rosa-vs-Red Cat debacle look deeply rooted in reality I mind you.

Singularitarianism, extropianism and transhumanism are not even ideologies I would dare to say. I would claim they more are an excuse to be a part of a subculture (compare goths or emos, only that most transhumanists are males 25-30). Moreover, most transhumanists I have had the privilege to discuss with have come off as people who do not give a shit about one billion starving people as long as they could get the ability to switch genitalia on a daily basis and could get digital hearts and live forever.

The Order of Cosmic Engineers was one of the more radical transhumanist groups, mind you. They actually had some form of structured discussion and members who took it somewhat seriously. Most other transhumanists seem to treat it more like a hobby.

In short, while transhumanism is claiming to be a clean break from the current society, it is in fact in its current form an expression for the superficiality and inherent proto-fascism in contemporary western culture. The ascension of such artists like Lady Gaga could also be an indicator that the values celebrated by transhumanists more and more are pumped into the mainstream.

If you ask a typical transhumanist about his or her ideal world, you would get a description which is quite reminiscent of some sort of cyberpunk future. In short, they do not even want to achieve a utopia, but fetischises a dystopia and want everyone to live inside that dystopia.

I am the first to say there are serious transhumanists as well, which primarily want to use technology to alleviate poverty and diseases and what not. But the majority, or at least the most vocal group, is composed of hyper-idealistic hyper-individualists who lack the capacity or even interest to organise.

There is one community which could be claimed to be a transhumanist paradise, namely the city of Extropia on Second Life. Its basically just an ordinary capitalist village with some nice futuristic-looking architecture and a lot of transhumanists who go partying there, go rabbiting or engage in long-winded debates about whether or not their avatars are independent entities or extensions of themselves.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_BeWQ_qh1_04/SV4uKapMJLI/AAAAAAAAPQs/UlDbCsqUU6E/s320/Extropia+Mall+01-01-2009+23-34-08.jpg

[Invincible Summer]

I am very critical of transhumanism because of its idealistic notions and the general fact that the transhumanist movement is filled with anarcho-capitalist and proto-fascist elements. Most transhumanist organisations are basically really working as a hideout for the geeks of the geeks (geekiness is a trait which there is too little of in the world in general, but even too much of the good could become bad). Having debated and discussed with transhumanists through various channels, I have come to the conclusion that for the moment, the transhumanist movement at large is about as efficient as a rottening dead goat laying in the sun a hot summer's day.

Unfortunately, this is true.


Singularitarianism, extropianism and transhumanism are not even ideologies I would dare to say. I would claim they more are an excuse to be a part of a subculture (compare goths or emos, only that most transhumanists are males 25-30). Moreover, most transhumanists I have had the privilege to discuss with have come off as people who do not give a shit about one billion starving people as long as they could get the ability to switch genitalia on a daily basis and could get digital hearts and live forever.

The Order of Cosmic Engineers was one of the more radical transhumanist groups, mind you. They actually had some form of structured discussion and members who took it somewhat seriously. Most other transhumanists seem to treat it more like a hobby.

I would say that transhumanism is more an ideology than the other two that you mentioned, since the others do not really have anything to work towards, and are really under the umbrella of transhumanism.

I find it unfortunate that these are the transhumanists that you've met. I've found the opposite - most of the ones I've talked to are quite progressive in their views and see it in an emancipatory light.

But yes, there is a drawback to transhumanism in that many of the technologies are either in their infancy or speculative, and therefore it's difficult to organize to make such things happen. I think that's why many transhumanists may be considered "hobbyists" (I'd prefer the term "sympathizers") in your opinion. The ideas and philosophy are great - and I'm sure that's what draws most people (such as myself) in - but actually carrying it out requires a scientific knowledge that most people probably don't possess.

What's more, all this technology is tied up with capitalism, and we all know how that turns out



In short, while transhumanism is claiming to be a clean break from the current society, it is in fact in its current form an expression for the superficiality and inherent proto-fascism in contemporary western culture. The ascension of such artists like Lady Gaga could also be an indicator that the values celebrated by transhumanists more and more are pumped into the mainstream.
What is transhumanism "in its current form?" Plastic surgery?

And what does Lady Gaga have to do with this?


If you ask a typical transhumanist about his or her ideal world, you would get a description which is quite reminiscent of some sort of cyberpunk future. In short, they do not even want to achieve a utopia, but fetischises a dystopia and want everyone to live inside that dystopia.
I personally have yet to encounter this. It's unfortunate that you have. I don't even see the appeal of living in such a dystopia...



I am the first to say there are serious transhumanists as well, which primarily want to use technology to alleviate poverty and diseases and what not. But the majority, or at least the most vocal group, is composed of hyper-idealistic hyper-individualists who lack the capacity or even interest to organise.
I think it is difficult to organize around transhumanism without it seeming like a state eugenics movement

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I am very critical of transhumanism because of its idealistic notions and the general fact that the transhumanist movement is filled with anarcho-capitalist and proto-fascist elements.

When you say "idealistic" what do you mean by this?

As for an-caps and the fash within transhumanism, I certainly find it lamentable, but certainly no reason to reject transhumanism in general.


Most transhumanist organisations are basically really working as a hideout for the geeks of the geeks (geekiness is a trait which there is too little of in the world in general, but even too much of the good could become bad).

Yes, it's too bad that most transhumanist organisations are talking shops, but there are some that I feel are worth supporting; for example, the Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence (http://singinst.org/aboutus/ourmission) (SIAI) and other organisations that actually carry out and/or fund basic and applied research into areas such as robotics and nanotechnology.


Having debated and discussed with transhumanists through various channels, I have come to the conclusion that for the moment, the transhumanist movement at large is about as efficient as a rottening dead goat laying in the sun a hot summer's day.

My experiences have been different; the transhumanists I've met tend to be of intimidating intelligence and are actually working in relevant fields, although I will say that none of them are particularly fond of most transhumanist organisations around today.


One example is a movement known as "The Order of Cosmic Engineers". They wanted to create this own nation-state out of an island they were going to build themselves. Drawing fantastic plans to acquire the funds, they reached the conclusion that they couldn't start it since no one individually possessed the funds to make it possible. It did not even occur to them that funds could be pooled together.

Dumbasses.


So, their goal is now reduced to sitting and waiting for the singularity to occur while talking endlessly about semantics. Semantics which would make the Rosa-vs-Red Cat debacle look deeply rooted in reality I mind you.

That's really silly. If they want a Singularity, why not actually work towards that? Although my chosen goal of a career in physics research is not directly applicable to bringing about a Singularity, all science is interrelated and thus relevant.


Singularitarianism, extropianism and transhumanism are not even ideologies I would dare to say. I would claim they more are an excuse to be a part of a subculture (compare goths or emos, only that most transhumanists are males 25-30).

A subculture? If so, I must say it seems an extremely rarefied one to me. I admit I haven't talked to many transhumanists, but the ones I did had different tastes from myself in music, clothing and so on. If what you say is true, then that's unfortunate, but I do know that there are people who are genuinely serious about this stuff and are actually working to make it happen.


Moreover, most transhumanists I have had the privilege to discuss with have come off as people who do not give a shit about one billion starving people as long as they could get the ability to switch genitalia on a daily basis and could get digital hearts and live forever.

Eliezer S. Yudkowsky (http://yudkowsky.net/obsolete/singularity.html) certainly isn't one of them:


I have had it. I have had it with crack houses, dictatorships, torture chambers, disease, old age, spinal paralysis, and world hunger. I have had it with a planetary death rate of 150,000 sentient beings per day. I have had it with this planet. I have had it with mortality. None of this is necessary. The time has come to stop turning away from the mugging on the corner, the beggar on the street. It is no longer necessary to look nervously away, repeating the mantra: "I can't solve all the problems of the world." We can. We can end this.

And so I have lost, not my faith, but my suspension of disbelief. Strange as the Singularity may seem, there are times when it seems much more reasonable, far less arbitrary, than life as a human. There is a better way! Why rationalize this life? Why try to pretend that it makes sense? Why make it seem bright and happy? There is an alternative!

I'm not saying that there isn't fun in this life. There is. But any amount of sorrow is unacceptable. The time has come to stop hypnotizing ourselves into believing that pain and unhappiness are desirable! Maybe perfection isn't attainable, even on the other side of Singularity, but that doesn't mean that the faults and flaws are okay. The time has come to stop pretending it doesn't hurt!

Our fellow humans are screaming in pain, our planet will probably be scorched to a cinder or converted into goo, we don't know what the hell is going on, and the Singularity will solve these problems. I declare reaching the Singularity as fast as possible to be the Interim Meaning of Life, the temporary definition of Good, and the foundation until further notice of my ethical system.

I will admit that this moved me to tears. He went on to say:


There's another safeguard that isn't in the Principles (http://yudkowsky.net/obsolete/principles.html). It's the idea I originally wrote Staring into the Singularity to emphasize. It's this one last piece of advice: Don't go Utopian.

Don't describe Life after Singularity in glowing terms. Don't describe it at all. I think the all-time low point in predicting the future came in the few brief paragraphs of Unbounding the Future that I read, when they described a pedestrian being run over and his hand miraculously healing. That's ridiculous. Pedestrian? Run over? Hand? Cars in a nanotech world? Why not just have a bunch of apes describe the ease of getting bananas with a human mind?

Staring into the Singularity was a big wake-up call to me, a huge jolt that made me realise just how little I know, how limited I am as an ordinary human being, and just how futile a lot of arguments surrounding the Singularity really are. Quite humbling, really.


The Order of Cosmic Engineers was one of the more radical transhumanist groups, mind you. They actually had some form of structured discussion and members who took it somewhat seriously. Most other transhumanists seem to treat it more like a hobby.

I suspect part of this is because there are so few openings and opportunities available for those who wish initiate and/or take part in transhumanist projects, or at least work applicable to transhumanism. Because it's so difficult to do little more than basic research on the issue, most transhumanists are limited to simple advocacy.


In short, while transhumanism is claiming to be a clean break from the current society, it is in fact in its current form an expression for the superficiality and inherent proto-fascism in contemporary western culture.

I think it's inevitable under current socio-cultural conditions that transhumanism as a philosophy becomes increasingly degraded in direct proportion to its growing popularity - my only hope is that there will be some wheat among the chaff.


The ascension of such artists like Lady Gaga could also be an indicator that the values celebrated by transhumanists more and more are pumped into the mainstream.

I'm sorry, what? Lady Gaga? Huh?!


If you ask a typical transhumanist about his or her ideal world, you would get a description which is quite reminiscent of some sort of cyberpunk future. In short, they do not even want to achieve a utopia, but fetischises a dystopia and want everyone to live inside that dystopia.

I blame Hollywood, which is extremely reactionary when it comes to Transhumanism.


I am the first to say there are serious transhumanists as well, which primarily want to use technology to alleviate poverty and diseases and what not. But the majority, or at least the most vocal group, is composed of hyper-idealistic hyper-individualists who lack the capacity or even interest to organise.

I think that is a sign of the times, which also explains why shit like Objectivism has become popular, or at least widely broadcasted.


There is one community which could be claimed to be a transhumanist paradise, namely the city of Extropia on Second Life. Its basically just an ordinary capitalist village with some nice futuristic-looking architecture and a lot of transhumanists who go partying there, go rabbiting or engage in long-winded debates about whether or not their avatars are independent entities or extensions of themselves.

I think I'll pass.

[Invincible Summer]

Anyways, my question wasn't really answered although a discussion on h+ is cool too...


So yeah, how is "extropianism" an "ism" in itself? It seems to just characterize heavy utopianism and optimism in future technology, the latter of which is really the driving force of H+ anyway. So aren't all H+ers Extropian then?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Anyways, my question wasn't really answered although a discussion on h+ is cool too...


So yeah, how is "extropianism" an "ism" in itself? It seems to just characterize heavy utopianism and optimism in future technology, the latter of which is really the driving force of H+ anyway. So aren't all H+ers Extropian then?

Well, my first detailed introduction to Extropianism was The Extropian Principles (http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Philosophy/princip.html). This is a document that rewards careful reading, although not in the way you might expect.

Now, for the most part it seemed to be everything it claimed to be. Dynamic, optimistic, willing to shrug off the shackles of the past and venture into the freedom of what the future has to offer. But by section 4, "Intelligent Technology", there was a warning of what was to come:

"Intelligent use of biotechnology, nanotechnology, space and other technologies, in conjunction with a agoric free market system [my emphasis], can remove resource constraints and discharge environmental pressures."

Uh oh. Free market? "Disharge environmental pressures"? Is the author completely ignorant of history? In times of a free market, it has universally been the case that the environment suffers greatly. In rejecting the strictures of the past, one must be careful not to forget the lessons of history.

But it got worse.

Section 5, "Spontaneous Order" is essentially a worshipful ode to the free market and to anascopic systems (http://www.technocracy.ca/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=printpage&artid=26). The author claims to admit that katascopic methods of organisation have their place, but the author does so in what amount to basically a throw-away sentence:

"Both types of order have their place, but the under-appreciated spontaneous variety are crucial for our social interactions."

Indeed they are, but markets are not social interactions, they are economic. The author goes on to say the the free market "does not yet exist in a pure form", but doesn't examine why. But if you look at the other examples of anascopic systems or "spontaneous order" that the author provides, you will see a massive clue; all the examples are unstable, or only transiently stable. In complex chaotic systems like economics, there are phenomena known as "stable attractors" around which the state of economics (for example) can oscillate for an arbitrary number of times before falling in; now in the case of economics, there seem to be at least two stable attractors that we know about for certain - primitive communism and a complex but nonetheless regulated global market (advanced technological communism is hopefully yet another stable attractor). Somehwere in between these two points of stability is the free market that libertarians and apparently Extropians believe is so essential.

The problem is, the castle of the Extropians is effectively built on quicksand - not only is their proposed economic framework unstable, but there is also the question of resources and abundance. Markets are scarcity systems; they simply cannot cope with abundance. What's the point in having a market at all if a planet-spanning cloud of nanotechnology can create almost anything you care to imagine? That's an extreme example of course, but hopefully it puts the point across; money and markets are effectively a hang-over from the days of scarcity, and thus the Extropians contradict their own Principles by their advocacy for such an outdated system!

So yes, Extropians and other kinds of transhumanists have something in common, but I believe that Extropians are unique in their unsophisticated emphasis on anascopic systems and free markets.

[Invincible Summer]

Very interesting. I only really looked at the Wiki definition, which didn't really seem to touch too much on the economic assumptions underlying Extropianism.

It's indeed kind of odd how they seem to promote future tech, but at the same time hold onto the "vestiges of obsolete society," so to speak. I don't see how you could have all this science coupled with the irrationality, illogic, and unpredictability of a total free market.

It sounds like libertarian transhumanism