Polish president killed in a plane crash

[Dimentio]

The Polish president Lech Kaczynski has been killed in a plane crash in Smolensk, Russia. It is highly unusual that world leaders are killed in such incidents, and its only natural to suspect some sort of assassination - most likely from Russia, where a number of dubious high-profile assassinations have happened the recent years.

The question though, is: Exactly what do Russia have to win on this? This would only serve to increase Russo-Polish tension during a period when Russia is negotiating several lucrative contracts for its partners. That, in my opinion, is increasing the likelyhood that the Russian government wasn't involved.

No matter if anyone was behind this or if it just was bad weather, this will affect Russo-Polish relations badly, and possibly hurt the relations between Russia and more of its European partners.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/04/10/poland.president.plane.crash/index.html?hpt=T1

[Bilan]

Doesn't it seem a wee bit early to jump to such a conclusion? I mean, it is possible, but has any evidence been shown to illustrate that it was an assassination?
Last I heard, Eastern European airlines had a pretty bad track record with this sort of thing (i.e. plane crashes).

[Dimentio]

I haven't come to such a conclusion, but a lot of people will come to such conclusions.

[bie]

There is nobody to benefit politically from the accident (including Russian government). But there is something more interesting - Polish anticommunist political elites were brought to power in 1989 on the basis on Katyn lie. In sept. 1941 Nazi executed 20 000 Polish officers and 2 years later blamed that on Russians. In 1944 the Soviet commission (Burdenko) proved the Nazi guilt. The Goebbels provocation was picked up by anticommunists and used against Soviet Union and Peoples Democracies in Eastern Europe. It was one of the major factors of "antisovietism" that brought counterrevolution to Poland etc. And all the Polish modern political class can be seen as the progeny of the Katyn lie.

[Bilan]

I haven't come to such a conclusion, but a lot of people will come to such conclusions.

Yes, this is perhaps true, but I don't think we should give any credibility to these people by suggesting that they could well be right, i.e. that the likelihood of this being an accident is equal to that of it being a Russian conspiracy.
It is possible, but not probable, and more importantly, shouldn't be considered unless some evidence shows up to suggest that.

S'all I'm saying.

[RedAnarchist]

The plane they were flying in was a Soviet-era Tupolev 154 according to the BBC, and those planes have been involved in a lot of plane crashes since the early 1990s. Also according to the BBC, the pilot was asked to land in Minsk, Belarus but decided to fly on to Smolensk, Russia.

[ev]

It was all a hoax to shoot down the plane and install a pro-russian government! NWO NWO!

lol

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

I can't say I mourn his death, actually.
It is quite ironic, however, that he dies on his way to a remembrance ceremony of the Katyn lie. Would it be the revenge of the ghost of Katyn?

[Wanted Man]

It's an unfortunate accident, considering the high amount of deaths. Can't say I'll miss Kaczynski, though.

[CallMeSteve]

There is nobody to benefit politically from the accident (including Russian government). But there is something more interesting - Polish anticommunist political elites were brought to power in 1989 on the basis on Katyn lie. In sept. 1941 Nazi executed 20 000 Polish officers and 2 years later blamed that on Russians. In 1944 the Soviet commission (Burdenko) proved the Nazi guilt. The Goebbels provocation was picked up by anticommunists and used against Soviet Union and Peoples Democracies in Eastern Europe. It was one of the major factors of "antisovietism" that brought counterrevolution to Poland etc. And all the Polish modern political class can be seen as the progeny of the Katyn lie.

Wow, a Soviet judge found the Nazis guilty in wartime? Who would have thought? How about the fact that the Burdenko Commission didn't allow any non-Soviets to look at the evidence, whereas the Germans had British POWs, the Red Cross, many foreign journalists, experts from different countries etc.

I am of course not an apologist for Nazism, but with so many different people with either a neutral or even anti-Nazi bias to conclude that this time, it wasn't actually them, it seems far likelier that it was the NKVD.

To argue anything otherwise is ludicrous.

[Bilan]

Now, now. Let's not get off topic.
You're welcome to start an alternate thread, but let's not derail this one.

[Crux]

UPDATED list of dead

Lech Kaczyński, President
Maria Kaczyńska, First Lady

Ryszard Kaczorowski, last President-in-exile

Krzysztof Putra, vice-Marshal of the Sejm (speaker of Parliament)
Krystyna Bochenek, vice-Marshal of the Sejm

Jerzy Szmajdziński, former Minister of Defence and intended Presidential Candidate for this year's election
Władysław Stasiak, chief of the President's office
Jacek Sasin, his deputy

Aleksander Szczygło, chief of National Security Bureau
Paweł Wypych, Secretary of State in President's office (note to Amerigoons: less important than it sounds)
Mariusz Handzlik, his deputy

Andrzej Kremer, vice-minister of Foreign Affairs
gen. Franciszek Gągor, Chief of Staff
Jerzy Bar, ambassador to Russia

Andrzej Przewoźnik, major historian

Maciej Płażyński, MP, former Marshal of the Sejm
Przemysław Gosiewski, MP, former minister
Zbigniew Wassermann, MP, former minister
Izabela Jaruga-Nowacka, MP, former Minister of Social Policy
Jolanta Szymanek-Deresz, MP, former chief of President's Office
Aleksandra Natalii-Świat, MP, vice-president of Law and Justice party
Leszek Deptuła, MP
Grażyna Gęsicka, MP
Arkadiusz Rybicki, MP
Stanisław Zając, MP
Edward Wojtas, MP
Wiesław Woda, MP
Sebastian Karpiniuk, MP
Grzegorz Dolniak, MP

Janusz Kochanowski, Ombudsman

Sławomir Skrzypek, President of the Polish National Bank

Janusz Kurtyka, President of the Institute of National Remembrance (state institution for historical research)

bishop Tadeusz Płoski

and the chiefs of every arm of the Armed Forces.

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8612825.stm)

[bie]

The plane was not allowed to land at the airport in Smolensk (just 15 min before the crash pilot was refused a permission), after THREE failed attempts to land. The most likely it was due to the pressure of the passengers that the pilot attempted to land despite the circumstances. The accident happened due the arrogance of the "ruling elite".

CallMeSteve: the presence of people of different nationalities in Nazi commission in 1943 and absence of foreigners in Burdenko commission is NOT an argument for or against the final report. The Special Comission (Burdenko) investigated more that 30 similar cases (murders and mass executions committed by Germans eg. Orel). The nazi guilt of Katyn Crime is so obvious for anyone who had even slight knowledge of the case and is not entirely influenced by anticommunist and Nazi propaganda. If you want to discuss- please make another topic, I am willing to answer your questions.

[gorillafuck]

Wow, that is a large number high ranking people.

[Demogorgon]

The plane was not allowed to land at the airport in Smolensk (just 15 min before the crash pilot was refused a permission), after THREE failed attempts to land. The most likely it was due to the pressure of the passengers that the pilot attempted to land despite the circumstances. The accident happened due the arrogance of the "ruling elite".

I think that is a mistranslation of a Russian term meaning "final turn" that literally translates as "fourth turn". That is the plain crashed as it was making its final turn to land. No pilot would attempt to land in bad conditions after three failed attempts given there was enough fuel on board to fly to Minsk and no air traffic control would allow it regardless of who was on board.

[bie]

I think that is a mistranslation of a Russian term meaning "final turn" that literally translates as "fourth turn". That is the plain crashed as it was making its final turn to land. No pilot would attempt to land in bad conditions after three failed attempts given there was enough fuel on board to fly to Minsk and no air traffic control would allow it regardless of who was on board.
I got this information from Polish sources (onet.pl and gazeta.pl - and they rely on gazeta.ru). They are telling explicitly that the pilot made 3 failed landing attempts before the crash. In can be understood that the passengers were very willing to be on time. This information was also confirmed by dr Tomasz Szulc from Polytechnics of Wroclaw.

edit: While on its trip to Georgia 2 years ago, in the similar situation the pilot of the polish presidential plane refused to land due to the bad landing conditions. Consequently he was fired (or threatened to be fired - other sources say). It may explain this strange decision to land regardless of the warnings.

[CallMeSteve]

CallMeSteve: the presence of people of different nationalities in Nazi commission in 1943 and absence of foreigners in Burdenko commission is NOT an argument for or against the final report. The Special Comission (Burdenko) investigated more that 30 similar cases (murders and mass executions committed by Germans eg. Orel). The nazi guilt of Katyn Crime is so obvious for anyone who had even slight knowledge of the case and is not entirely influenced by anticommunist and Nazi propaganda. If you want to discuss- please make another topic, I am willing to answer your questions.

I have no questions, I'm neither a Nazi nor a Stalinist so frankly I don't even give a shit who did it. I do study History though so I'm more inclined to believe what the majority of sources indicate; however we'll just have to disagree on this.

As for this plane crash, my sympathies are with the pilots' families.

[himalayanspirit]

I've heard that USA was supposed to be installing their missile systems in Poland this April. Hmmmm?

[Red Commissar]

I would have thought there was some rule preventing that number of officials to be on the same plane at the same time. I know the US does that.

But regardless, this is a tragic loss of life. I may disagree with the policies the president put in place but he was still a human.

[S.Artesian]

There is nobody to benefit politically from the accident (including Russian government). But there is something more interesting - Polish anticommunist political elites were brought to power in 1989 on the basis on Katyn lie. In sept. 1941 Nazi executed 20 000 Polish officers and 2 years later blamed that on Russians. In 1944 the Soviet commission (Burdenko) proved the Nazi guilt. The Goebbels provocation was picked up by anticommunists and used against Soviet Union and Peoples Democracies in Eastern Europe. It was one of the major factors of "antisovietism" that brought counterrevolution to Poland etc. And all the Polish modern political class can be seen as the progeny of the Katyn lie.


Right. It was all a product of the Katyn lie. Had nothing to do with the Polish economy. Had nothing to do with the long history of the Communist Party allowing, supporting capitalist agriculture in Poland; of allowing the Catholic Church to exercise inordinate influence in Polish society; had nothing to do with the foreign debt taken on in the Gomulka years; nothing to do even with the Jaruzelski coup, the undermining, and suppression, of any left opposition inside or outside the decaying party..., had nothing to do with the romance with Thatcherism, nope.

Henry Ford is claimed to have said "history is bunk." Here we have the CP take: "history is a lie." And who should no better about history as lies than the former official CPs?

[S.Artesian]

UPDATED list of dead

Lech Kaczyński, President
Maria Kaczyńska, First Lady

Ryszard Kaczorowski, last President-in-exile

Krzysztof Putra, vice-Marshal of the Sejm (speaker of Parliament)
Krystyna Bochenek, vice-Marshal of the Sejm

Jerzy Szmajdziński, former Minister of Defence and intended Presidential Candidate for this year's election
Władysław Stasiak, chief of the President's office
Jacek Sasin, his deputy

Aleksander Szczygło, chief of National Security Bureau
Paweł Wypych, Secretary of State in President's office (note to Amerigoons: less important than it sounds)
Mariusz Handzlik, his deputy

Andrzej Kremer, vice-minister of Foreign Affairs
gen. Franciszek Gągor, Chief of Staff
Jerzy Bar, ambassador to Russia

Andrzej Przewoźnik, major historian

Maciej Płażyński, MP, former Marshal of the Sejm
Przemysław Gosiewski, MP, former minister
Zbigniew Wassermann, MP, former minister
Izabela Jaruga-Nowacka, MP, former Minister of Social Policy
Jolanta Szymanek-Deresz, MP, former chief of President's Office
Aleksandra Natalii-Świat, MP, vice-president of Law and Justice party
Leszek Deptuła, MP
Grażyna Gęsicka, MP
Arkadiusz Rybicki, MP
Stanisław Zając, MP
Edward Wojtas, MP
Wiesław Woda, MP
Sebastian Karpiniuk, MP
Grzegorz Dolniak, MP

Janusz Kochanowski, Ombudsman

Sławomir Skrzypek, President of the Polish National Bank

Janusz Kurtyka, President of the Institute of National Remembrance (state institution for historical research)

bishop Tadeusz Płoski

and the chiefs of every arm of the Armed Forces.

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8612825.stm)

Yikes. That isn't a plane crash, that's a coup.

[Crux]

it's funny you should say that, since another guy at another forum where I got the link from said almost the exact same thing. Well, you know what they say, don't put all your eggs in the same basket, don't put all your high-ranking officials in the same rusty russian airplane.

[bie]

Right. It was all a product of the Katyn lie.

Had nothing to do with the Polish economy. Had nothing to do with the long history of the Communist Party allowing, supporting capitalist agriculture in Poland; of allowing the Catholic Church to exercise inordinate influence in Polish society; had nothing to do with the foreign debt taken on in the Gomulka years; nothing to do even with the Jaruzelski coup, the undermining, and suppression, of any left opposition inside or outside the decaying party..., had nothing to do with the romance with Thatcherism, nope.

I do not want to do off topic, but just to clarify.. Sure, the factors that you have mentioned in general were important - but - debts were taken by Gierek, not Gomulka and they were not the case - and there was no "Jaruzelski coup de etat", rather in 1980 another fraction - Kania's took power, left opposition existed inside the Party for the long time eg. Grabski and had a large influence on politics in 1980s - but it could not stop the counterrevolution, supported by "liberals" from CP etc. As you see - it is not so simple. The all above conditions were the consequence of right opportunism that became an important political power. But the direct cause of the victory of the counterrevolution was the manipulation of working class and middle strata consciousness by the reactionary ideology - both from the rightist-opportunistic side as well as ultra-reactionary positions. And the manipulation of which the Katyn lie was a major issue - was an important factor that turned Polish people against the People's Power towards Catholics and reactionaries. Believe me this was the main case - "Communist are hiding that NKVD murdered 20k Polish patriots". How could you trust communists then? Goebbels would be laughing.


Yikes. That isn't a plane crash, that's a coup.
It is a nothing but the direct consequence of the extreme stupidity and arrogance of "new Polish ruling class".

[S.Artesian]

I do not want to do off topic, but just to clarify.. Sure, the factors that you have mentioned in general were important - but - debts were taken by Gierek, not Gomulka and they were not the case - and there was no "Jaruzelski coup de etat", rather in 1980 another fraction - Kania's took power, left opposition existed inside the Party for the long time eg. Grabski and had a large influence on politics in 1980s - but it could not stop the counterrevolution, supported by "liberals" from CP etc. As you see - it is not so simple. The all above conditions were the consequence of right opportunism that became an important political power. But the direct cause of the victory of the counterrevolution was the manipulation of working class and middle strata consciousness by the reactionary ideology - both from the rightist-opportunistic side as well as ultra-reactionary positions. And the manipulation of which the Katyn lie was a major issue - was an important factor that turned Polish people against the People's Power towards Catholics and reactionaries. Believe me this was the main case - "Communist are hiding that NKVD murdered 20k Polish patriots". How could you trust communists then? Goebbels would be laughing.


It is a nothing but the direct consequence of the stupidity and arrogance of "new Polish ruling class".


Correct. I wrote Gomulka, when it was Gierek. I was thinking about the 1970 clash that lead to Gomulka's replacement and the "new economics" based on access to foreign debt.

On December 31, 1981, Jaruzelski already national secretary of the CP and prime minister, declared martial law. This type of action is actually a "self-coup," known in Latin America as "auto-gulpe," and this was indeed an "auto-gulpe."

The Polish economy severely worsened under Jaruzelski, as it slid in tandem with the overall international economic contraction, a slide made worse as Jaruzelski imposed severe austerity in order to service the international debt.

As the economy continued to slide, the CP lost even more support, and sought to bring Solidarity into some sort of power-sharing to restore economic growth and maintain debt service payments.

The "above conditions" were not at all the result of "right opportunism," but the necessary result of the links of Poland to the world markets, by the condition of agricultural production in Poland, and by the determination of the official CP to service the debt rather than socialism.

What "united" the liberals in the CP with the "center" of Jaruzelski was the submission of the Polish proletariat to the demands of the world market-- which of course is the inevitable outcome of "socialism in one country," of the defeat of the proletarian revolution on the international stage.

But I agree let's not get off topic. I don't think there's any value in speculating about a Russian conspiracy regarding the plane crash. It's just staggering that a leadership of a government would all pack itself into one plane at one time. And it might be amazing that such a plane could actually crash....given all the hot air on board.

[Nosotros]

I knew people would blame the Russians, too many douche bags out there. But hey, 80 state parasites dead, you don't always get a result like that! :)

[Das war einmal]

This is a bad week for corrupt authorities.

[Rusty Shackleford]

This is a bad week for corrupt authorities.
maybe it will move a little farther west?

[Coggeh]

I knew people would blame the Russians, too many douche bags out there. But hey, 80 state parasites dead, you don't always get a result like that! :)
Countless more to take their place and will in some form or another use this as an excuse to drive in more right wing polices and cuts.

[Valeofruin]

Good riddance.

[Wanted Man]

Yikes. That isn't a plane crash, that's a coup.

I suppose this is meant figuratively? Surely people here would not instantly believe in conspiracies.

[S.Artesian]

I suppose this is meant figuratively? Surely people here would not instantly believe in conspiracies.

Yes, figuratively. As a bit of black humor.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I won't go to conclusions, but really, it wouldn't surprise me if this was an occurrence by an Economic Hit Man. Just saying.

[Tifosi]

Wow, that has to be one of the most successful assassinations ever!:D

[Wanted Man]

I won't go to conclusions, but really, it wouldn't surprise me if this was an occurrence by an Economic Hit Man. Just saying.

Because..?

[Ismail]

There is also Anna WALENTYNOWICZ among victims of crash.


Her firing in August 1980 was the event that led to the strike in the Gdansk Shipyardand and the creation of Solidarity.So basically, not only did the last Polish "President in exile" die, but the woman who inspired the right-wing Solidarity trade union died, too. As did the leader of an anti-communist memorial organization. All on the day of "remembrance" for Katyn.

[Das war einmal]

So basically, not only did the last Polish "President in exile" die, but the woman who inspired the right-wing Solidarity trade union died, too. As did the leader of an anti-communist memorial organization. All on the day of "remembrance" for Katyn.


The devil in me dances

[Wolf Larson]

The Polish president Lech Kaczynski has been killed in a plane crash in Smolensk, Russia. It is highly unusual that world leaders are killed in such incidents, and its only natural to suspect some sort of assassination - most likely from Russia, where a number of dubious high-profile assassinations have happened the recent years.

The question though, is: Exactly what do Russia have to win on this? This would only serve to increase Russo-Polish tension during a period when Russia is negotiating several lucrative contracts for its partners. That, in my opinion, is increasing the likelyhood that the Russian government wasn't involved.

No matter if anyone was behind this or if it just was bad weather, this will affect Russo-Polish relations badly, and possibly hurt the relations between Russia and more of its European partners.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/04/10/poland.president.plane.crash/index.html?hpt=T1

So the Technocracy people are indeed big on conspiracy theories. Perhaps you should lobby the Zeitgeist producers to throw this one in the upcoming Zeitgeist 3 movie you're anticipating. I'm not sure why you care about politics either way since you and the Technocrat poster have stated Marxism and anarchism are outdated politics and humanity is not in need of political systems and think revolution isn't necessary and capitalism will just fizzle away.

Maybe democracy killed him? LOL

[Weezer]

Why did they their entire cabinet on one plane? :confused:

[Audeamus]

Why did they their entire cabinet on one plane? :confused:

I guess they wanted a lot of big shots at the Katyn memorial thing...but still all of them in one plane is a bit stupid.

Oh well, I won't miss their reactionary politics. Sucks for the families though. :/

[Demogorgon]

Why did they their entire cabinet on one plane? :confused:
That wasn't the Cabinet, most of them were opposition politicians (the late President's party was in opposition after all and it seems to have largely been his friends and allies on the plane). The Prime Minister and most members of the cabinet remain alive and well, if shaken.

It will have major ramifications on what happens in domestic politics in Poland though. With so many senior members of the opposition dead there will be an obvious vacuum.

[MaoTseHelen]

Man, the Kremlin sure is having a good week.

[Red Commissar]

So basically, not only did the last Polish "President in exile" die, but the woman who inspired the right-wing Solidarity trade union died, too. As did the leader of an anti-communist memorial organization. All on the day of "remembrance" for Katyn.

Yeah, I was reading the articles and I saw those two names. That was interesting to say the least...

Might as well throw this in for Poland

http://i44.tinypic.com/2rdu9fd.jpg

[Ismail]

For what it's worth, the Polish Government itself is absolutely stable. It would have been far worse had the Prime Minister and head of the Sejm (parliament) died.

So if anyone gets "OH GOD CIVIL WAR/REVOLUTION" thoughts in their mind, then... no.

[rednordman]

The nazi guilt of Katyn Crime is so obvious for anyone who had even slight knowledge of the case and is not entirely influenced by anticommunist and Nazi propaganda. If you want to discuss- please make another topic, I am willing to answer your questions.This is what totally baffles me about alot of polish people. That is that they take it as a complete gospel truth that the Russians committed Katlyn massacre. I mean from what i have heard from people who have actually look in depth into this, there is strong evidence for it being the Russians, but almost equally strong evidence pointing to the Nazis too.

Even In British history books, its a Russian attrocity. No question or anything.

To me, I get the impression that the Polish want the Russians to be the culprits of the massacre. I think that if there was some definitive final truth that proved the Nazis to have commited it, than alot of them would be pissed off.

In all, I would like to have some respect for this man, but at the end of the day, ALOT of polish people I have meet have sadly been Nazi sympathisers or at very best have some pathetic feeling of superiority over the 'dirty' Russians. Honestly you wouldnt believe it.

To hate the old communist regime is understandable, but that is NO Excuse to become a quasi-fascist authoritarian, nazi sympathiser or dumb nationalist.

Heck, talking to some of them, you are not even allowed to be gay there. Yet still, millions of polish people will be flying from abroad to pay respects to a man, who has had a strong say in forcing them out of their own country due to abysmal ecomonic circumstances...My god, Poland has come a long way:rolleyes:.

For the sake of good morals I will pay respect to this man, for being a man of ideals and fighting for them (even if it looks like hes gone way of the mark). And obviously I wish the best for the Polish people in the Future.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Because..?

Because, if the stories told by John Perkins is true, then it simply wouldn't surprise me if this was a hit by one of those people.

[Ismail]

FWIW, I like Furr's view on Katyn: http://chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/pol/discuss_katyn041806r.html


IMO the evidence suggests that both the Soviets and, later, the Germans shot Polish officers, for different reasons. This explanation has the advantage over others in that it does not entail "dismissing" lots of the evidence we have, or "assuming" the evidence against one side is true while that against the other side is false.

[....]

A good guess (mine, but others suggest it too) is that some of the Polish officers shot by the Soviets -- yes, I think the evidence is that some were -- were implicated in the Polish war crimes against Soviet POWs during 1919-1921.

[bie]

FWIW, I like Furr's view on Katyn
It is more than likely that courts in SU condemned to death number of people with Polish nationality in 1939-1941 (Kaganovich stated in an interview in 1985 that the number is 3196) - for crimes etc. We do not know how many of them were actually executed. The biggest graveyard is in Miednoe - around 350 people were identified.

But not in Katyn. This was entirely a German provocation. If you don't trust communist sources, read the book of Romuald Swiatek-Horyn (available online, just type in Wikipedia).

[jake williams]

When I read this I pretty much instantly thought "this sounds like some sort of a storybook assassination", but as has been pointed out, there isn't really any evidence, and it doesn't clearly benefit anyone other than perhaps, indirectly, certain segments of the Polish ruling class - who presumably wouldn't have the means, or even the desire, to do this.

[The Red Next Door]

Let dance the polka on his and his wife and cabinet grave.

[Wanted Man]

Because, if the stories told by John Perkins is true, then it simply wouldn't surprise me if this was a hit by one of those people.

What does that have to do with Poland?

[Dimentio]

So the Technocracy people are indeed big on conspiracy theories. Perhaps you should lobby the Zeitgeist producers to throw this one in the upcoming Zeitgeist 3 movie you're anticipating. I'm not sure why you care about politics either way since you and the Technocrat poster have stated Marxism and anarchism are outdated politics and humanity is not in need of political systems and think revolution isn't necessary and capitalism will just fizzle away.

Maybe democracy killed him? LOL

Stop trolling. I did not imply that it was a conspiracy, only that people would believe it to be.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

So basically, not only did the last Polish "President in exile" die, but the woman who inspired the right-wing Solidarity trade union died, too. As did the leader of an anti-communist memorial organization. All on the day of "remembrance" for Katyn.


Apparantly there is some quite good news about this crash after all :p.
It sickens me that the media is so heavily concentrating on what a "wonderful man" Kasczinksy was, and how "devestated" the Polish are about his death.
Last news report I saw reported over half an hour about Kasczinsky, his past in Solidarnosc (and off course propaganda for those bastards), catholic masses to honour him, the Polish minority of Belgium remembering him, Polish people crying, etcetera.

The best way to get popular, as always, is dying.

[Proletarian Ultra]

In all, I would like to have some respect for this man, but at the end of the day, ALOT of polish people I have meet have sadly been Nazi sympathisers or at very best have some pathetic feeling of superiority over the 'dirty' Russians. Honestly you wouldnt believe it.

To hate the old communist regime is understandable, but that is NO Excuse to become a quasi-fascist authoritarian, nazi sympathiser or dumb nationalist.

Poland was one of the only places where there was a significant rightist presence among the anti-Nazi partisans. Consequently the postwar purges left a ton of vicious nationalists and anti-semites in place. These shaped the "communist" regime to a really significant degree, and continue to do so post-communism.

Little known fact: Poland made its own demands for "opening up" at the same time as Prague Spring. And unlike Prague Spring, the Soviets didn't send in the tanks. Result: a mass purge of Jews under the pretense of anti-Zionism. Wikipedia it: "1968 Polish political crisis."

[Jazzratt]

So the Technocracy people are indeed big on conspiracy theories.

Should I extrapolate from you being an obnoxious tosspot that everyone of your political tendency is an obnoxious tosspot?

[cska]

I have no questions, I'm neither a Nazi nor a Stalinist so frankly I don't even give a shit who did it. I do study History though so I'm more inclined to believe what the majority of sources indicate; however we'll just have to disagree on this.

As for this plane crash, my sympathies are with the pilots' families.

The majority of western sources? They will make up whatever the hell they like. As Napoleon said, "History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon."

[Ismail]

If you study history and are "more inclined to believe what the majority of sources indicate" then you aren't a very good historian. Even seemingly incredibly obvious "facts" like a Soviet invasion of Poland aren't what they seem (http://chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/research/mlg09/did_ussr_invade_poland.html) when more serious research is done.

Historians should go by evidence. Sources that say "The Soviets, and the Soviets only, massacred Polish soldiers because they're evil" can repeat misinformation if the original sources and evidence are wrong or flawed.

[RedScare]

Wow, that's not something that happens very often. It's a pity it happened the way it, it'll probably not do anything to help Russo-Polish tensions.

As for Katyn, well, there's always confirmation bias....

[Obrero Rebelde]

They should have known better than to pack so many important Polish figures into one plane.

[InTheSystem]

How bitterly ironic that this tragedy occurs so close in proximity to the Katyn Incident. I'm not familiar with Kaczynski's policies or ideology, but this is truly a huge blow to Poland's government. I guess one could think it is all to convenient that dozens of high-profile bureaucrats were eliminated aboard this flight, but Russia has nothing to gain from fomenting disorder in Poland's upper levels of government. It's been said numerous times before that the pilot ignored advice to land in Minsk rather than Smolensk, and I think a subsequent investigation (overseen by Putin no less) will chalk this one up to simple, yet unfortunate, pilot error.

I know that the Marshal of the Sejm ascends to the presidency, but I wonder what the Poles are going to do about the large vacancies in their armed forces?

[cb9's_unity]

I can't help but be reminded of the State of The Union address, where essentially every important person in American government is packed into one room. One person in the presidential line of succession doesn't attend event just in case the place is attacked.

Now lets remember the state of the union doesn't take place on a fucking air plane, and has probably the highest security on the planet.

Any meaningless loss of life is always tragic, but how stupid can you get polish government?

[bie]

I think that if there was some definitive final truth that proved the Nazis to have commited it, than alot of them would be pissed off.
I consider this statement to be politically naive. It is important not to ignore the psychological and ideological walfare that was developed before and during the Cold War. The informational front is the first front of the Cold war. And even more now - if you look carefully into the policies eg. of European Union towards the historical education, you will see the huge degree of falsification of history, especially II World War. And this is well designed and coordinated project.

There are 2 main means of falsification and revision: (1) is the unconditonal and full rejection of all Soviet sources (eg. denial of testimonies, even if they were confirmed many years after - eg. Krivoi testimony) (2) fabrication of false "evidence" - eg. materials from case no.1 ("Beria's letter" from 5.III.40, "Shepelin's letter" and "Politbureau Protocol"). Those manipulations caused the maistream historians to believe the version of the Soviet guild. Of course not all, and there are political organisations (CP of Russian Federation, CP of Greece) that denounce that lie.

[rednordman]

I consider this statement to be politically naive. It is important not to ignore the psychological and ideological walfare that was developed before and during the Cold War. The informational front is the first front of the Cold war. And even more now - if you look carefully into the policies eg. of European Union towards the historical education, you will see the huge degree of falsification of history, especially II World War. And this is well designed and coordinated project.

There are 2 main means of falsification and revision: (1) is the unconditonal and full rejection of all Soviet sources (eg. denial of testimonies, even if they were confirmed many years after - eg. Krivoi testimony) (2) fabrication of false "evidence" - eg. materials from case no.1 ("Beria's letter" from 5.III.40, "Shepelin's letter" and "Politbureau Protocol"). Those manipulations caused the maistream historians to believe the version of the Soviet guild. Of course not all, and there are political organisations (CP of Russian Federation, CP of Greece) that denounce that lie.The reason I say this is purely because of what I can only describe as 'astounding' anti-russian sentiment from the most polish people I talk with. Even some who I would never expect it from, are certain that this was a russian conspiracy and has be orcastrated by Russia to suit their own interests. Another interesting point is how they all seem to equate the term 'communism' as just another word for Russian Rule. Was there any communists in poland just after WW2 then?

Also, in a country where i very much doubt you can say you are a communist comfortably, what are the polish authorities doing to combat the neo-nazis and fascist sympathiers?

On the other hand, Is the problem really as bad as people in the west is told? Even the British BBC has mentioned about the shocking rise of the far-right in Eastern Europe and the even more shocking tolerance that they are give to express their opinions.

Its like they see the communists are worse than the nazis. Do they not realise the role of the USSR in defeating a much worse foe? Not that I condone the attrocites commited by USSR however.

[rednordman]

Also I would like to state the interesting fact, that right now, Anyone who dares to question the Soviet guilt of Katlyn, could almost be considered as bad as a holocaust denier, in popular society. What does this say about the revisionism of history? - Even if Russia is guilty or innocent, it makes no diffence. We are all thrown headfirst into the ever increasing slagheap of history, which is all orcastated by the USA incidentally. And that figures because everyone who even questions capitalism, is seen as an enemy of the 'freedom' and 'liberty' of dear old uncle sam...

[Sasha]

Polish president Lech Kaczynski (1949–2010)—from Solidarity advisor to right-wing politician

By Marius Hauser
13 April 2010

The airplane crash near Smolensk in Russia April 10, which resulted in the death of Polish president Lech Kaczynski, has led to widespread consternation inside Poland. Along with Kaczynski, the accident claimed the lives of some 80 leading members of the country’s political and military elite. They were on their way to a memorial ceremony in Katyn, Russia, where 70 years earlier 22,000 Polish officers and intellectuals were murdered by Stalinist thugs.

It would be mistaken, however, in the manner of much of the Polish and international media, to confuse the widespread shock at the crash with broad public sympathy for the figure and politics of Lech Kaczynski. Kaczynski was one of the most unscrupulous representatives of the Polish ruling elite.
The former child film star and advisor to the Solidarity trade union was a leading architect of the restoration of the capitalist free market and so-called shock therapy that commenced in the early 1990s. As president, Kaczynski conducted a series of virulent attacks on the social and democratic rights of the population relying on the support of extreme right-wing parties. According to opinion polls, he had little chance of re-election in the presidential vote scheduled for this autumn.
Lech Kaczynski was elected president in October 2005 with the smallest number of votes ever recorded by a victorious candidate for the post. One quarter of the electorate voted for the conservative politician in the second ballot. Kaczynski was able to win the post with such a narrow base of support only because his predecessors had been so discredited.
The post-Stalinist Democratic Left Alliance (SLD) had undertaken an offensive against the Polish welfare state in its four years in government and was involved in numerous corruption affairs. The only serious rival to Kaczynski was the current Prime Minister Donald Tusk, who had announced his own plans for radical cuts and privatization.
In the September 2005 parliamentary elections, his Law and Justice (PiS) party emerged as the strongest parliamentary group and the following month Kaczynski won the presidential election. During the presidential campaign Kaczynski sought to mobilize the more backward layers of the Polish population with a mix of social demagogy, nationalism and calls for a fight against corruption.
Just nine months later he presided over the nomination of his twin brother Jaroslaw to the post of prime minister. The Kaczynski brothers then formed a coalition with two right-wing, overtly anti-Semitic parties, the League of Polish Families (LPR) and Samoobrona (Self-Defence of the Republic of Poland).
In the guise of a struggle against corruption, the Kaczynskis increased the repressive capabilities of the state. At the same time, they increased their own influence by increasing their personal powers and placing political cronies in key posts. One of the first official acts of the Kaczynski government was a change to the country’s broadcasting law allowing the twins direct access to national television and radio.
A key project of their government was the creation of the Central Anticorruption Bureau (CBA). The office unites the police, secret police and judicial authorities in an organization that has similar powers to the former Stalinist secret service. Under the direct control of the prime minister, the CBA has been used on a number of occasions by the Kaczynskis to neutralize political adversaries—including members of their own government.
Despite its populist demagogy, the PiS government went on to impose the austerity policies of the preceding government, making merely cosmetic changes. After a brief pause the policy of privatization of state assets was also continued. In the sphere of foreign policy, Lech Kaczynski essentially continued the course of his predecessor Alexander Kwasniewski (SDL), i.e., a strong orientation to American imperialism aimed at expanding the country’s room for maneuver within Europe. Lech Kaczynski’s own bumbling and utterly provincial manner typified the increasing isolation of the country.
In October 2007 the government led by his brother collapsed following fierce internal divisions and Lech began to work closely together with the new Prime Minister Donald Tusk, leader of the rabidly pro-free market Civic Platform (PO).
After nearly five years in office Kaczynski had managed to lose even his narrow base of support. Shortly before his death he was polling around just 20 percent.
In this respect Kaczynski has shared the fate of every Polish head of government and president in the post-Stalinist era, none of whom has ever served more than one term of office—with the exception of Kwasniewski. Since 1990 Polish society has been dominated by politicians who have their roots either in the former Stalinist regime or the opposition Solidarity movement. Both sets of politicians have sought to plunder the country’s resources through a mixture of privatizations and social cuts. When one group in power is sufficiently discredited in the eyes of the population, then the other group takes over. All of this has occurred under the direct jurisdiction of the European Union and its institutions.
Kaczynski played a central role in the restoration of capitalism. After completing his law studies in 1977, he established contact with the “Committee for the Defense of Workers” (KOR). From that time he stood on the right wing of the opposition trade union movement. In 1980 he was one of the advisors to Solidarity and worked closely with its leader Lech Walesa to suppress political demands within the trade union and subordinate the movement to the Catholic Church.
In 1989 Kaczynski was a representative at the so-called “round table,” which organized the restoration of capitalism. The chief task of the round table was to divide power and influence between the new rising layers in Solidarity and the former Stalinist elite, while preparing shock therapy for the population at large. As senator, then member of parliament and eventually co-coordinator for the security and secret services, Kaczynski was directly involved in imposing this “therapy.” The consequences for the population were dramatic and led to a humiliating defeat for the Solidarity-led government in 1993.
At this point Kaczynski withdrew from public politics. It was only after the discrediting of the subsequent post-Stalinist regime after four years in power and the election of a revamped Solidarity (AWS) government in 1997 that Kaczynski returned to the political stage. He took over as Justice Minister from June 2000 until the fall of the government in July 2001. Following a wave of controversial restructuring measures, dismissals and privatizations, the AWS was so unpopular it failed to win enough votes to be represented in the new parliament. At that time Kaczynski’s remodeled PiS also only won 9.6 percent of the vote.
Kaczynski then concentrated on politics in Poland’s capital city and was elected mayor of Warsaw in November 2002. In office he made clear his contempt for democratic rights, in June 2005, for example, banning a gay rights march. At the same time, he allowed neo-Nazis to stage a counter-demonstration. Despite the ban, the gay rights forces assembled and were brutally attacked by the neo-Nazis. Kaczynski later criticized the police because they had protected the assembled gays and their supporters from the attacks launched by the fascists.
Other policy hobby-horses included his demand for the introduction of the death penalty and his proposal that homeless people should be penned in container slums outside of the city limits, so as not to spoil the view for tourists and the city’s well off.
Contrary to statements by leading members of the German Greens, Lech Kaczynski did not “represent the interests of his country,” nor had he “devoted his life to the freedom of Poland and the freedom of Europe” (German chancellor Angela Merkel). He was a representative of the Polish ruling elite and sought to establish authoritarian forms of rule based on reactionary Polish chauvinism.



source: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/apr2010/kacz-a13.shtml