Views on North Korea

[RedHK]

Hello comrades, this would be my first actual post, I'm still in the learning process about a lot of things, and the subject of North Korea is one of them.

What are your views on North Korea and the leader of it, Kim Jong Il?

Is North Korea a communist state? Or is it a facist and/or dictatored country?

From all I have seen, it doesn't seem to resemble communism or "juche" at all, it just seems like a huge mess full of starving people doing things to make their leader happy, mainly rediculous things. It just, to me anyway, seems to be a Korean version of Nazi Germany.

Correct me if I am wrong or have any misinformation here, I don't know if North Korea is really a touchy subject here or not, I just want to see if what i have gathered or learned about the country are correct or not, and to see what other's views on it are.

Thank you! :thumbup1:

[Dimentio]

Well, its resembling Juche quite much, to the extent that Juche could be seen as a variation of national socialism in the manner in which it is carried out and in its superficial ideological components. Juche cannot be consider anything else than hyper-idealistic, hyper-nationalistic and hyper-totalitarian.

[Demogorgon]

Well, its resembling Juche quite much, to the extent that Juche could be seen as a variation of national socialism in the manner in which it is carried out and in its superficial ideological components. Juche cannot be consider anything else than hyper-idealistic, hyper-nationalistic and hyper-totalitarian.
That's true. Also I think the key point that needs to be emphasised is that the entire state is focussed around the army.

In addition to Juche, Songun has been added as a co-equal state ideology and it means "military first". The recent North Korean constitutional reform removed all lingering references to Communism (which has been progressively written out since 1972) and formally established the state as one centered around the army.

Calling North Korea communist is a slur on Communism based on the loose premise the Kim Il-Sung was once a Communist and occasionally claimed as well by North Korea's propaganda in order to seduce the naive into still supporting the state.

The analogy I draw is, if North Korea is to be called Communist based on old beliefs that Kim Il-Sung abandoned long before his death, is Singapore to be considered socialist based on the fact that Lee Kuan Yew was once a socialist?

[Dimentio]

That's true. Also I think the key point that needs to be emphasised is that the entire state is focussed around the army.

In addition to Juche, Songun has been added as a co-equal state ideology and it means "military first". The recent North Korean constitutional reform removed all lingering references to Communism (which has been progressively written out since 1972) and formally established the state as one centered around the army.

Calling North Korea communist is a slur on Communism based on the loose premise the Kim Il-Sung was once a Communist and occasionally claimed as well by North Korea's propaganda in order to seduce the naive into still supporting the state.

The analogy I draw is, if North Korea is to be called Communist based on old beliefs that Kim Il-Sung abandoned long before his death, is Singapore to be considered socialist based on the fact that Lee Kuan Yew was once a socialist?

The sad thing is that I think most people here, myself included, would prefer to live in Singapore before living in North Korea.

[red cat]

Hello comrades, this would be my first actual post, I'm still in the learning process about a lot of things, and the subject of North Korea is one of them.

What are your views on North Korea and the leader of it, Kim Jong Il?

Is North Korea a communist state? Or is it a facist and/or dictatored country?

From all I have seen, it doesn't seem to resemble communism or "juche" at all, it just seems like a huge mess full of starving people doing things to make their leader happy, mainly rediculous things. It just, to me anyway, seems to be a Korean version of Nazi Germany.

Correct me if I am wrong or have any misinformation here, I don't know if North Korea is really a touchy subject here or not, I just want to see if what i have gathered or learned about the country are correct or not, and to see what other's views on it are.

Thank you! :thumbup1:

I don't know about the juche stuff, but North Korea certainly isn't socialist anymore. In fact, we consider it to be one of the main strongholds of revisionism. However, it is to be defended against big imperialist powers.

[punisa]

majority of statements you will hear about North Korea are speculations or copy/paste ideas from western propaganda.
Only thing I can suggest is reading as much as you can about it and form your own opinion, cause everything else are mostly just subjective viewpoints.

This is probably subjective as well, but a nice video, especially the music :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JikH7V3NQI4

[Walt]

It's hard to give a definite straight forward answer because the DPRK is one of the most isolated countries in the world. However, I have many friends who visit North Korea usually on a yearly basis and explain to me that the West over-exaggerates the 'crime' and 'atrocities' North Korea commits.

[Barry Lyndon]

I have a Canadian Marxist friend of mine who lives in China and speaks fluent Mandarin(not sure about his Korean). He knows people who have been to North Korea, and is of the opinion that it is not only not socialist/communist, but actually a fascist state given the official ideology of race-based nationalism and glorification of the military and the Dear Leader. The living conditions for people, particularly in the countryside, are apparently very primitive and backward, the healthcare and education available to all exists only on paper. He sees North Korea as a state that deserves to be denounced, but is denounced in the Western media for the wrong reasons-not because it is a dictatorship, but because it is still perceived as being communist and pointing to North Korea makes communism look very bad. The capitalist imperialists have no problem with dictatorships as long as they can do business with them.

[RedHK]

majority of statements you will hear about North Korea are speculations or copy/paste ideas from western propaganda.
Only thing I can suggest is reading as much as you can about it and form your own opinion, cause everything else are mostly just subjective viewpoints.

This is probably subjective as well, but a nice video, especially the music :)
JikH7V3NQI4

The only thing I have to say about your post is that I've mainly heard it from people who've went there. But they were from the west, so I have no idea if it may be true or not, you never know about them, the US government makes people say all sorts of things. The life there seems pretty pleasant from the video. I wonder how the chances are of a non-asian to get that close, since I do believe NK is very anti-white, but if anyone can correct me on this, let me know. Have you ever seen the video about the VBS (Misspelled maybe?) Travel Guide to NK? Or even the video from the Korea Friend's Association?

What are your views on the KFA? I have very negative views, even the North Korean people have had a negative view on their leader, Alejendro Benos.

Very nice video, I might add. I enjoyed it. North Korea has some of the most powerful red music, IMO.


I have a Canadian Marxist friend of mine who lives in China and speaks fluent Mandarin(not sure about his Korean). He knows people who have been to North Korea, and is of the opinion that it is not only not socialist/communist, but actually a fascist state given the official ideology of race-based nationalism and glorification of the military and the Dear Leader. The living conditions for people, particularly in the countryside, are apparently very primitive and backward, the healthcare and education available to all exists only on paper. He sees North Korea as a state that deserves to be denounced, but is denounced in the Western media for the wrong reasons-not because it is a dictatorship, but because it is still perceived as being communist and pointing to North Korea makes communism look very bad. The capitalist imperialists have no problem with dictatorships as long as they can do business with them.

Thanks for your post, comrade. I have too wondered about this, as you could see. It just seems like a neo-facist society, and not very communist at all. That is not to say that I will not travel there at least once. I will always want to see things with my own eyes before I go about judging them, however, I was just wondering other people's thoughts, and I do appreciate yours.

Now.. the only thing is to get to Shenyang, haha. :P

[Nosotros]

I would say that North Korea is not Communist but is a product of the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution in Russia and certainly a regime that is akin to Fascism.

[punisa]

just a quick note - there are sources who claim they were in NK without being monitored by the travel guides all the time.
It seems that it is not that hard to enter NK by train, although (as sources claim) it is not advised if you are American.

Anyway, check it out:
http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/

Bascially its an amazing trip these two guys from Austria took. They went by train all the way to Pyongyang.
That link is a front page, many pages with detailed photos from the trip can be found here:
http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/2008/04/how-everything-began.html

This is not a political blog in any way, but I guess you will like it :)

[rednordman]

Slaps hand on forhead over anyone who states NK as being 1)fascist and 2)hyper-nationalistic. The simple truth is that NK is an anti-west/capitalist authoritarian state, in a world that does not allow countries to take that stance (unless they work for them ofcourse). This is why the country is deemed to be facing famine and poverty all the time (or so we are told).

It is very likely that things are not very nice there, but as far as I see it, it doesnt matter whether they are authoritarian or libertarian, so long as they are against capitalism and imperialism, they would still face the same hardships due to total isolation. Similar things could also be said about Burma also.

This was obviously very different when they had the USSR to do buisness with.

If they are Fascist, then why are they not invading other countries as we speak? Why do the statues there glorify workers and revolution? and why do they not segregate communites from each other (In other words, why does it seem equally poor, not poor in some areas and rich in others-pyongyang may be an exception here)?

[Red Commissar]

just a quick note - there are sources who claim they were in NK without being monitored by the travel guides all the time.
It seems that it is not that hard to enter NK by train, although (as sources claim) it is not advised if you are American.

Anyway, check it out:
http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/

Bascially its an amazing trip these two guys from Austria took. They went by train all the way to Pyongyang.
That link is a front page, many pages with detailed photos from the trip can be found here:
http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/2008/04/how-everything-began.html

This is not a political blog in any way, but I guess you will like it :)

That is actually quite interesting. I didn't know that one could do that through a train. There's another collection of photos somewhere on a flickr account of another fellow who went to NK, I don't seem to have the bookmark though...

[Tablo]

Slaps hand on forhead over anyone who states NK as being 1)fascist and 2)hyper-nationalistic. The simple truth is that NK is an anti-west/capitalist authoritarian state, in a world that does not allow countries to take that stance (unless they work for them ofcourse). This is why the country is deemed to be facing famine and poverty all the time (or so we are told).

It is very likely that things are not very nice there, but as far as I see it, it doesnt matter whether they are authoritarian or libertarian, so long as they are against capitalism and imperialism, they would still face the same hardships due to total isolation. Similar things could also be said about Burma also.

This was obviously very different when they had the USSR to do buisness with.

If they are Fascist, then why are they not invading other countries as we speak? Why do the statues there glorify workers and revolution? and why do they not segregate communites from each other (In other words, why does it seem equally poor, not poor in some areas and rich in others-pyongyang may be an exception here)?
Of course it was nicer for them when the USSR was around as they received a great deal of aid. They are NOT anti-Capitalist. They are quite clearly an authoritarian State-Capitalist regime. I do not see why ANYONE would want to support authoritarianism, especially when it comes in the form of a police state. Not only that, but they couldn't give a shit about the workers struggle. They have an ultra-nationalist regime that places the military before the workers. I certainly do not support the west harassing any nations and conditions would certainly be better if they were not harassed, but that does not in any way mean we should support them or look to them in a positive light.

[scarletghoul]

It's hard to give a definite straight forward answer because the DPRK is one of the most isolated countries in the world. However, I have many friends who visit North Korea usually on a yearly basis and explain to me that the West over-exaggerates the 'crime' and 'atrocities' North Korea commits.
This is a highly important point. It is still like the cold war in Korea, and almost everything you hear about North Korea from the western press is capitalist propaganda or contains a propagandistic element to it. We are exposed to an array of gross exaggerations, unfounded speculations, and downright lies* concerning the DPRK. Its impossible to get any proper objective info on the country, so you can never just believe anything you hear about them. Its worth noting also that much of the propaganda in the west feeds off racist orientalist ideas about brainwashed asians who blindly follow the whims of an infantile despotic madman.

Personally I view the DPRK as one of the few socialist states in the world (their economy is still under collective ownership), despite having some problems and suffering from revisionism. It's very isolated and subjected to constant threat of Amerikan attack. Comparable to Cuba in these respects.

I can't be arsed to write a response to every reactionary point made in this thread (maybe another day..) but let me just say that the DPRK deserves our support and respect as one of the world's surviving socialist strongholds and for its inspiring anti-imperialism.

Look around on RevLeft of search for DPRK, and you will find a some pretty good threads with arguments on North Korea. This is my favourite -
http://www.revleft.com/vb/dprk-cubai-t128484/index.html?t=128484
Hopefully you can see that much of the anti-DPRK sentiment on here is from people infected by liberalism and imperialist propaganda

*Kim Jong-il injects himself with virgin blood every day.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

So ScarletGhoul, despite the fact that this is a state that suffers from an undoubtably extreme cult of personality, pursues nuclear weapons and has mis-managed its economy so poorly that it is still suffering from the effects of the mid-1990s famine, in addition to being (in your own words) revisionist, you'd still support it as 'Socialist'?

Not all of us subscribe to the racist 'kamikaze' notion of 'crazy Koreans', nor do we all buy the undoubtably propagandised 'information' from the West, but from what little we know, even if we discount the blatant anti-oriental racism and western propaganda, we can see that the DPRK is not even remotely Socialist. If it was, why would it drop all reference to Socialism, Communism, Marxism or Leninism in official works? C'mon.

Also, if it is so comparable to Cuba, why is it that foreigners are allowed to travel so freely within Cuba? Why has there been no famine in Cuba? You point to the isolated nature of the DPRK, and the imperialist-American threat. Nobody denies that this is true. However, it is also undoubtably the truth that Cuba has suffered a threat - in the form of the trade embargo, in terms of propaganda, in terms of CIA counter-revolutionary attempts - that is at least as bad as the DPRK, yet you see no famine, no isolationism and a less pervasive, less hollow 'cult of personality' around Fidel Castro.

Indeed, despite being just a few miles off the coast of the USA, Cuba has managed to stave off the counter-revolutionary threat without any WMD. Why should be then sanction, support or condone in any way the development of atomic weapons by the DPRK?

[AK]

This is a highly important point. It is still like the cold war in Korea, and almost everything you hear about North Korea from the western press is capitalist propaganda or contains a propagandistic element to it. We are exposed to an array of gross exaggerations, unfounded speculations, and downright lies* concerning the DPRK. Its impossible to get any proper objective info on the country, so you can never just believe anything you hear about them. Its worth noting also that much of the propaganda in the west feeds off racist orientalist ideas about brainwashed asians who blindly follow the whims of an infantile despotic madman.

Personally I view the DPRK as one of the few socialist states in the world (their economy is still under collective ownership), despite having some problems and suffering from revisionism. It's very isolated and subjected to constant threat of Amerikan attack. Comparable to Cuba in these respects.

I can't be arsed to write a response to every reactionary point made in this thread (maybe another day..) but let me just say that the DPRK deserves our support and respect as one of the world's surviving socialist strongholds and for its inspiring anti-imperialism.

Look around on RevLeft of search for DPRK, and you will find a some pretty good threads with arguments on North Korea. This is my favourite -
http://www.revleft.com/vb/dprk-cubai-t128484/index.html?t=128484
Hopefully you can see that much of the anti-DPRK sentiment on here is from people infected by liberalism and imperialist propaganda

*Kim Jong-il injects himself with virgin blood every day.
Even if all the negative claims about the DPRK were found to be false - the DPRK is still shitty and not socialist in the least. Defending North Korea would be a very bad career move.

[anticap]

Northern Korea is a de facto feudal monarchy. The restrictive mobility rights and personality cult toward the "Dear Leader" means that the people are in a position not unlike that of feudal serfs, who were tied to the land and required to show fealty to its lord. Moreover, leadership (Dearness?) passes from father to son; and while desperate apologists may object that this process is not codified into law, it really makes no difference, since that is what happens in practice, (hence "de facto").

One will sometimes find pitiable leftists displaying an unbecoming desperation to have something, anything, to add to the "good guys" pile, and defending any regime that isn't overtly capitalist. Sadly, there are no good guys, just varying degrees of bad guys. Or was global communism instituted while I slept? :tt1:

[Panda Tse Tung]

So ScarletGhoul, despite the fact that this is a state that suffers from an undoubtably extreme cult of personality, pursues nuclear weapons and has mis-managed its economy so poorly that it is still suffering from the effects of the mid-1990s famine, in addition to being (in your own words) revisionist, you'd still support it as 'Socialist'?

I dont see how any of these future's (where the mis-managing is unproven and the nucleair weapon part isn't neccesarily negative) would prove it not to be socialist. It doesn't even prove it's revisionism.


Northern Korea is a de facto feudal monarchy. The restrictive mobility rights and personality cult toward the "Dear Leader" means that the people are in a position not unlike that of feudal serfs, who were tied to the land and required to show fealty to its lord. Moreover, leadership (Dearness?) passes from father to son; and while desperate apologists may object that this process is not codified into law, it really makes no difference, since that is what happens in practice, (hence "de facto").

Despite how hard i may seem to believe Kim jong-il did not inherit his position, there we're some serious opponents and other candidates. While i agree that him being the son off would have probably helped him a lot, it does not equal a 'feudal monarchy'. That is just a weak way of attempted slander on an anti imperialist state (and is a terribly opportunistic position). And shows nothing close to a Marxist analyses of North Korean society.

[Monkey Riding Dragon]

It's objectively impossible for North Korea to be a fascist country because it isn't an imperialist country. So enough of that myth.

Anticap's rather non-material analysis isn't fully correct either, given the absence of landlords and serfs in the country. But it is essentially correct to say that North Korea is a feudal monarchy. It's feudal in the sense that the king owns everything (or most everything anyway). It's abundantly clear that power transitions along a specific family lineage. I would say the regime much more oppresses its people than it actually exploits them.

North Korea was never a socialist country. It was once briefly aligned with the socialist camp, which isn't the same thing. Moreover, "Juche" nothing. After the USSR adopted imperialism in the mid-1950s, Pyongyang's regime became a heavily dependent semi-colony thereof until the end of the Cold War. By the end of the '70s, the regime had gone bankrupt as a direct result of this parasitic relationship. Ever since the Soviet empire dissolved, North Korea has been in perpetual recession. One-third of the country's population is currently inadequately nourished, at least one-fourth of the workforce is unemployed, and runaway inflation is now a fact of daily life. Conditions are indeed primitive in terms of the provision of health care and education as well. These are the conditions the country's official media promotes as "a good life" and "a glorious past, present, and future" and yes "the envy of the world". This harsh reality is an outgrowth of the country's ongoing dependence on imperialist and other great power nations that, generally speaking, are single-mindedly committed to an agenda of regime change therein, not one of accommodation. Today, they (North Korea) are attempting to substitute in China as a replacement patron state for Soviet social-imperialism.

As far as the state ideology goes, it's really just a thin cover for what I've described above. Its arguments revolve around the ostensibly sacred nature of certain bloodlines (i.e. racism) and the apparently vital importance of, as their American proponents in the Songun Politics Study Group have put it, "unwavering worship of and filial devotion to" the monarch. An interview with their principle organizer, Mr. Cupp, (http://www.songunpoliticsstudygroup.org/JohnPaulCuppInterview.html) points to the backward mentality involved. To provide a few of the many 'interesting' highlights:


We need to reclaim our strong family life, and in keeping with the Juche idea, see the family, with the mutual love of man for woman, as nothing less than the cell of society to be uncompromisingly defended through do-in-or-die struggle.


Womanhood, according to the Juche idea, is absolutely sacred. Unlike certain reactionary trends being propagated today, the equality of the sexes does not negate the obvious differences between the role of manhood and womanhood. Being a strong revolution woman certainly does not negate the beauty of femininity, and its natural compliment is strong masculine men who love and cherish womanhood.
The unwavering worship of and filial devotion to the leader is the most pure of all communist virtues, and for those of us as Juche Songun communists, it is the bedrock towards the collective and individual self-realization of our immortal socio-political integrity.
In Korea, the single-hearted unity of the people and leader and of the army and leader is in full bloom ever-more under the banner of Songun Politics. President Kim Il Sung has become immortalized in the grandeur of Kumsusan Palace, and the people unanimously agreed to name him the Eternal President of the country. Marshal Kim Jong Il, who is a lifetime disciple of the great leader, took exceptional care to strengthen the cause of loyalty to the path of the President. Now today the north Korean people and progressive mankind have determined that Marshal Kim Jong Il, who is none other than the supreme revolutionary headquarters of the Songun revolution, also is a peerlessly great man to be upheld in a spirit of filial devotion."The people unanimously agreed to name him [Kim Il Sung] Eternal President" and "the north Korean people and progressive mankind have determined" the dynastic succession of the country's leadership.

As a complaint about modern America, Mr. Cupp offers:


Homosexual perversion and other degenerate abnormalities have become accepted as "normal."Etc. (Yes, that's really only the beginning.)

As to what our position should be vis-a-vis the North Korean regime, one of defense against imperialist aggression is appropriate, given that this an oppressed semi-colony. This defense though shouldn't be confused with support. The regime is reactionary and deserves to be overthrown.

[Wanted Man]

just a quick note - there are sources who claim they were in NK without being monitored by the travel guides all the time.
It seems that it is not that hard to enter NK by train, although (as sources claim) it is not advised if you are American.

Anyway, check it out:
http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/

Bascially its an amazing trip these two guys from Austria took. They went by train all the way to Pyongyang.
That link is a front page, many pages with detailed photos from the trip can be found here:
http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/2008/04/how-everything-began.html

This is not a political blog in any way, but I guess you will like it :)

The route that they used in that blog was closed afterwards, so they were probably the first and last western tourists to take it. :p

[scarletghoul]

So ScarletGhoul, despite the fact that this is a state that suffers from an undoubtably extreme cult of personality, pursues nuclear weapons and has mis-managed its economy so poorly that it is still suffering from the effects of the mid-1990s famine, in addition to being (in your own words) revisionist, you'd still support it as 'Socialist'?
As Panda pointed out none of these imperfections are in opposition to socialism.


we can see that the DPRK is not even remotely Socialist. If it was, why would it drop all reference to Socialism, Communism, Marxism or Leninism in official works? C'mon.
This is false. They removed the word 'communism' from the constitution, but the word 'socialism' is still used all the time, and anyone who has studied Juche can see that its obviously based on Marxism-Leninism


Also, if it is so comparable to Cuba, why is it that foreigners are allowed to travel so freely within Cuba?
Because DPRK hasn't sold itself to the capitalist tourist industry in the way Cuba has. This is a good thing, when you consider the effects Cuba's reliance on tourism has had on it.


Why has there been no famine in Cuba?
Unlike Cuba, North Korea has hardly any land suitable for growing food.


You point to the isolated nature of the DPRK, and the imperialist-American threat. Nobody denies that this is true. However, it is also undoubtably the truth that Cuba has suffered a threat - in the form of the trade embargo, in terms of propaganda, in terms of CIA counter-revolutionary attempts - that is at least as bad as the DPRK,
I would say the US threat is a little worse for North Korea, considering its still in a state of war with the South which has 10,000s of US troops ready to attack.

yet you see no famine, no isolationism and a less pervasive, less hollow 'cult of personality' around Fidel Castro.
I said about the famine already. As for 'isolationism' I'm not sure what you mean exactly ? And the Castro cult may be not quite as ridiculous as the Kim one (and I think we should be critical of every personality cult), however thats not really a substantial criticism of North Korean society; you would be mad to dismiss the whole of the DPRK just because of the Kim cult.


Indeed, despite being just a few miles off the coast of the USA, Cuba has managed to stave off the counter-revolutionary threat without any WMD. Why should be then sanction, support or condone in any way the development of atomic weapons by the DPRK?
Because like I said Korea is still in a state of war with 10000s of US troops on standby to invade. Skirmishes still occur occasionally. North Korea must defend itself, and nuclear weapons are a good way to do this. Cuba is not under such imminent threat of invasion (though it was in the 60s, which caused them to use Soviet nukes..)


Even if all the negative claims about the DPRK were found to be false - the DPRK is still shitty and not socialist in the least.
What why. You make no sense comrade.

Defending North Korea would be a very bad career move.
:lol: Career move ? Thats what this is about ??


Northern Korea is a de facto feudal monarchy. The restrictive mobility rights and personality cult toward the "Dear Leader" means that the people are in a position not unlike that of feudal serfs, who were tied to the land and required to show fealty to its lord. Moreover, leadership (Dearness?) passes from father to son; and while desperate apologists may object that this process is not codified into law, it really makes no difference, since that is what happens in practice, (hence "de facto").
This is too ridiculous. I can understand allegations of 'state capitalism' and such, but feudalism ?!?! That's fucking crazy. Personality cults are not unique to any mode of production, and the social organisation is totally differant to any kind of feudalism. It is industrialised and collectivised.

The 'monarchy' thing is opportunistic bullshit. Sure the Kim family are closer to power than most, but to say KJI is in power just because he is KIS's son shows a complete lack of knowledge or understanding over the history and structure of the Korean Workers Party.

Do you consider Cuba a feudal monarchy too ? Why not ??


One will sometimes find pitiable leftists displaying an unbecoming desperation to have something, anything, to add to the "good guys" pile, and defending any regime that isn't overtly capitalist. Sadly, there are no good guys, just varying degrees of bad guys. Or was global communism instituted while I slept? :tt1:
This really exposes your ultra-leftist idealism..

[anticap]

Despite how hard i may seem to believe Kim jong-il did not inherit his position, there we're some serious opponents and other candidates. While i agree that him being the son off would have probably helped him a lot, it does not equal a 'feudal monarchy'.

Firstly, LOL at the notion that he was merely "helped" by who his daddy was.

Secondly, "de facto" has a meaning, and it's not "equal to."

Thirdly, I was actually referring to the fact that His Majesty, the "Dear Leader," has selected his son to succeed him. Oh but I'm sure there were lots of candidates there as well (actually, there were: Kim waffled a bit over which of his sons to anoint).

Fourthly, by defending any of this, even if only obliquely, you provide an example of the desperation I spoke of.


That is just a weak way of attempted slander on an anti imperialist state (and is a terribly opportunistic position).

See what I mean? So because Kim thumbs his nose at the U$ (and good for him! but then again, who doesn't, lately?), it is slanderous to take issue with his regime. Any excuse will do, evidently, as long as you've got something to throw on the pile.


And shows nothing close to a Marxist analyses of North Korean society.


Anticap's rather non-material analysis isn't fully correct either...

Oh give me a fucking break. Does anything in my post sound like it was meant to be a "Marxist" or "materialist" analysis? It's a fucking facetious analysis -- and yet it's uncannily accurate, isn't it?


...given the absence of landlords and serfs in the country.

Again, "de facto" has a meaning, and it's not "literal." Since you evidently couldn't spot it, the serf/lord bit was an analogy.


But it is essentially correct to say that North Korea is a feudal monarchy. It's feudal in the sense that the king owns everything (or most everything anyway). It's abundantly clear that power transitions along a specific family lineage.

I'll take that as a "Yes" and thank you for throwing me that bone.


This is too ridiculous. I can understand allegations of 'state capitalism' and such, but feudalism ?!?! That's fucking crazy. Personality cults are not unique to any mode of production, and the social organisation is totally differant to any kind of feudalism. It is industrialised and collectivised.

And there you go, interjecting a bunch of shit that's irrelevant to anything I said.

My analogy to feudal monarchy was predicated on a select few salient and fundamental features (plural; I neither said, nor implied, that personality cults = feudalism), and was, once again, stated as de facto, not literal (I hope three repetitions is a charm).


The 'monarchy' thing is opportunistic bullshit. Sure the Kim family are closer to power than most, but to say KJI is in power just because he is KIS's son shows a complete lack of knowledge or understanding over the history and structure of the Korean Workers Party.

I love this. There's another one of those words we see here at RevLeft: "opportunistic."

Listen, you hardcore revolutionist you: no matter how abject your denialism, you can't fool even yourself into believing what you've just said. You know it, I know it, and everyone who read it knows it. But of course, if you can provide the minutes from the Party discussions as to who would be the best man for the job, in each case of nepotism, then start a thread about it and we can pick them apart and decide if we believe a fucking word of it.


Do you consider Cuba a feudal monarchy too ?

What do you mean, "too"? I don't consider northern Korea a feudal monarchy, because it isn't one; I consider it a de facto feudal monarchy, because it resembles one. (Looks like three repetitions wasn't a charm.)


Why not ??

Because it doesn't resemble one.


This really exposes your ultra-leftist idealism..

You can toss around all the usual slurs as much as you like, but you can't make northern Korea look any less like I described it, nor can you make my observation that you bolded above any less accurate. All you can do is expose your own abject desperation to have something to cling to in our corner. I'm sorry to have to inform you that northern Korea ain't our champ.

Seriously, this kind of apologetics is fucking embarrassing. No sane person would deny that northern Korea is under siege. But what does that have to do with the above-described behavior? Answer: not a fucking thing. There's nothing inherent to being on the defensive that demands that leadership behave as aristocracy and treat the people like serfs. In fact, I dare say that any time such a situation arises, it would be for the good of the people that the regime fall. Sometimes, "anti-imperialism" is just slogan, with no material benefit.

P.S. You know what sucks the most about forum discussions? It's that when someone merely skims your posts for something to object to, you can't interrupt them like you can in real life. In real life, I'd have immediately cut you off and said "de facto, de facto, de facto" until I was heard. And then the rest of your posts could not have been uttered, since they're all predicated on not understanding what the fuck "de facto" means. But since this is the Internet, I have to go through this inanity after the fact and dissect it, pointing out each and every place where you shouldn't have said what you did, and couldn't have done if we were speaking face to face, because I wouldn't have let you get away with it. This inferiority of the Internet could be mostly alleviated if people would give a close reading to posts before responding, but that would require that everyone be interested in serious discussion, and not merely ideological wrestling.

[Panda Tse Tung]

I wasn't planning to make this a long discussion, but fine...


Firstly, LOL at the notion that he was merely "helped" by who his daddy was.
Firstly, LOL at the notion he was appointed despite it being factually impossible due to the structures of the North Korean state and all evidence speaking against it.

I'll give the first the best thing popping up at google: http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/kim-jong-il/rise-to-power.html
(Cause thats all it takes... google)


Secondly, "de facto" has a meaning, and it's not "equal to."

It means by the fact. Unless your one of those ancient language speakers.


Thirdly, I was actually referring to the fact that His Majesty, the "Dear Leader," has selected his son to succeed him. Oh but I'm sure there were lots of candidates there as well (actually, there were: Kim waffled a bit over which of his sons to anoint).

No he did not, but i shall grand you the opportunity to prove me false.


Fourthly, by defending any of this, even if only obliquely, you provide an example of the desperation I spoke of.


No, it's a matter of principal. If i was desperate i'd jerk off over the greek riots.


See what I mean? So because Kim thumbs his nose at the U$ (and good for him! but then again, who doesn't, lately?), it is slanderous to take issue with his regime. Any excuse will do, evidently, as long as you've got something to throw on the pile.

There's a difference between slander and criticism. Reffering to North Korea as feudal is slander. Criticize NK constructively as much as you like and i wont offer any opposition to the position (unless of course false). I have plenty of issues with North Korea, but i'm not going along with the populist locomotive by denouncing them as hard as possible without taking any considerations of the material conditions and reality.

[The Ben G]

As I have stated before, I would consider the DPRK a train wreck, to say the least.

The DPRK is no more than a Dictatorship of the Kims. I would call it a monarchy, not socialism.

[Coggeh]

There's a difference between slander and criticism. Reffering to North Korea as feudal is slander. Criticize NK constructively as much as you like and i wont offer any opposition to the position (unless of course false). I have plenty of issues with North Korea, but i'm not going along with the populist locomotive by denouncing them as hard as possible without taking any considerations of the material conditions and reality.
I think the material conditions of North Korea speak for themselves it cannot be defended any more than a state like Iran or Libya can be defended. While i agree that to just say a certain country is feudal or fascist with no basis is petty but as leftists their is very little defense of North Korea that can be made.

No democracy
No workers control
No trade unions

What is their in reality to defend in North Korea?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I don't wish to become hysterical here. There's little use in degenerating into 'OMGZ KIMS R WELL DICTATORIAL LYK' type arguments.

I'd merely point out that, if we use what information we have on the DPRK, we can, at best, if we ignore and excuse absolutely every negative that comes out of that country - lack of travel opportunities in/out of the country, nuclear weapons (I can't see how this is a positive for any Socialist), the cult of the Kims, the famine in the mid-1990s (which must at least in part be attributable to economic mis-management, even if there are other factors), the lack of a reference to Communism, Marxism or Leninism (I don't buy that Juche = Marxism-Leninism, and I also don't think we should excuse the lack of the above references simply because they reference Socialism; Socialism is a word that has been abused and raped by many, from Mugabe to Saddam, and we can include the DPRK in this category) -, even if we ignore the above, then at best the DPRK is a degenerated workers' state.

Do we really want to defend a state that, at best, may or may not be a poor exposition of Socialism? Seems a tad senseless to me, not to mention dogmatic.

In any case, I don't really think that the exceptional cult around the Kims, the proliferation of atomic weapons etc., is something that can be excused. These two things at least, are not western propaganda, but reality (there may be a grey area with the atomic weapon charge, but it most certainly looks that it is at least their bona fide intention to acquire atomic weapons).

[Valeofruin]

I don't know about the juche stuff, but North Korea certainly isn't socialist anymore. In fact, we consider it to be one of the main strongholds of revisionism. However, it is to be defended against big imperialist powers.

You can do better then that. Hurrr DPRK is revisionist is a stance that, while correct, seems to dodge the imperialist lies about the DPRK instead of defending against them.

The DPRK (North Korea), is a state surrounded on all sides by enemies. It is largely self reliant, or at least more-so then most other countries on the planet.

It is constantly threatened and propagandized against by imperialist powers, and there is a risk of complete isolation at least or military intervention at worst, any day now. This makes for a unique set of material conditions in the dprk, which they have adapted to by adopting some revisionist stances, building an excessive military and developing nuclear weapons.

The 'Personality Cult', while widespread is hardly the most important thing to analyse in the DPRK as the imperialists lead us to believe. In fact it exists for a reason, and is actually helping the DPRK today. What cult the people follow, be it islam, Christianity or Juche, isn't too important compared to questions such as the quality of their healthcare or education.

Also @Granma Nuclear weapons can be a positive for a socialist nation in the long term if it can act as a deterrent against an invasion, hence allowing one to cut back certain aspects of the military and refocus the resources elsewhere. Further, if having nuclear weapons gives the international community a good reason to not cut off aid to the DPRK that means more rice in the stomachs of Korean children. Lastly it makes it harder to conduct subversion or take down a regime from within, due to the risk of weapons winding up in the wrong hands amidst the chaos.

Don't be an idiot, the DPRK needs those weapons.


I think the material conditions of North Korea speak for themselves it cannot be defended any more than a state like Iran or Libya can be defended. While i agree that to just say a certain country is feudal or fascist with no basis is petty but as leftists their is very little defense of North Korea that can be made.

No democracy
No workers control
No trade unions

What is their in reality to defend in North Korea?

No democracy? there are 3 political parties in the DPRK.

The only reason Trots rant and rave about the Korean system is because they are barred from being part of it. Thats why Trotskyite groups have no choice but to try to infiltrate the DPRK from the south, typically in vain, amirite?

Need I remind you of the Trotskyite interview in Solidarity/ Against the Current where they said:

“We would like to have contact with North Korean workers, but there is no dissident group of revolutionary workers. What dissidents there are have no base in the working class. Workers so far are absolutely controlled by the party.”

My oh my, what interest the Trots seem to have in getting in touch with 'dissidents'. I s'pose we know where your loyalties lie when it comes to defending the DPRK against imperialism eh?

Oh and P.S.

I agree, If the Kims are a 'Dynasty' what are the Castros?

Fidel -> Raul.... Hypocrites

[Demogorgon]

No democracy? there are 3 political parties in the DPRK.

But given they do not compete and the other two are merely satellites of the Worker's Party, that doesn't mean anything.

Now before you come in with the usual stuff, let me help you out by showing you what you need to prove me wrong: an example of a competitive multi-candidate election in North Korea.

[Nolan]

I would say that North Korea is not Communist but is a product of the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution in Russia

Completely fucking ridiculous.


and certainly a regime that is akin to Fascism.

Definitely not fascism, but an ultra-nationalist, chavunistic pseudo-monarchy.

[rednordman]

Believe me when I say this, If North Korea was indeed fascist or ultra-nationalist. Than it could be fair to say that they would get alot more support from the rest of the world, USA included. They wouldnt be pariahs....Rich people dont actually hate fascists, despite what they tell you. They do hate anti-capitalist/imperialists however.

[Tablo]

Believe me when I say this, If North Korea was indeed fascist or ultra-nationalist. Than it could be fair to say that they would get alot more support from the rest of the world, USA included. They wouldnt be pariahs....Rich people dont actually hate fascists, despite what they tell you. They do hate anti-capitalist/imperialists however.
Being fascist and ultra-nationalist will make you no friends unless you will provide them financial benefits.

[rednordman]

Being fascist and ultra-nationalist will make you no friends unless you will provide them financial benefits.Well I do not believe they would be as islolated as they are now, regardless. I think the real question is that of what would the USA have done with a regime that is more pro-capitalist than the southen one that they sponsored. That would inevitably have been the case if they where indeed fascist or nationalistic.

[rednordman]

Of course it was nicer for them when the USSR was around as they received a great deal of aid. They are NOT anti-Capitalist. They are quite clearly an authoritarian State-Capitalist regime. I do not see why ANYONE would want to support authoritarianism, especially when it comes in the form of a police state. Not only that, but they couldn't give a shit about the workers struggle. They have an ultra-nationalist regime that places the military before the workers. I certainly do not support the west harassing any nations and conditions would certainly be better if they were not harassed, but that does not in any way mean we should support them or look to them in a positive light.Im not actually supporting them here, just stating how I see their situation in reality.

Whether you think they are capitalist or not is for another debate, BUT obviously they are not capitalist in the western sense, if they are at all. Also being militaristic doesnt always equate to nationalism.

[Valeofruin]

But given they do not compete and the other two are merely satellites of the Worker's Party, that doesn't mean anything.

Now before you come in with the usual stuff, let me help you out by showing you what you need to prove me wrong: an example of a competitive multi-candidate election in North Korea.

Which is a bullshit demand because we both know North Korean ballots dont exactly fall out of the sky.

I cant pull some random ballot to prove they have competition, and you cant pull some random ballot (not some bullshit like kim jong ils election) to prove they do not.

The only reason your opinions have more credibility and you can place the burden of proof on me is because the bourgeois approve of what you are saying. Kind of like when it comes to Stalin bashing... there is no Innocent until proven guilty when it comes to communists is there? Stalin is a mass murdering maniac, just like North Korea is a 'pseudo monarchist dictatorship' until proven otherwise amirite?
Which side are you really on?



Definitely not fascism, but an ultra-nationalist, chavunistic pseudo-monarchy.

Dude just stop...

In what way are feudal classes and production in place in the DPRK? Show how they are Feudal from a Marxist perspective... just try to justify it, it'll be amusing.

If you're going to criticize the DPRK fine, but don't just make up words, and use whatever terminology suits you even when its clearly not true.

[Tablo]

Im not actually supporting them here, just stating how I see their situation in reality.

Whether you think they are capitalist or not is for another debate, BUT obviously they are not capitalist in the western sense, if they are at all. Also being militaristic doesnt always equate to nationalism.
Of course they are not Capitalist in the Western sense. If they were then the US would love them and have a McDonalds set up in every village.

They definitely are nationalist as the is a core feature of the Juche ideology.

[Nolan]

Dude just stop...

In what way are feudal classes and production in place in the DPRK? Show how they are Feudal from a Marxist perspective... just try to justify it, it'll be amusing.

If you're going to criticize the DPRK fine, but don't just make up words, and use whatever terminology suits you even when its clearly not true.

Um, I didn't say it was feudal. I mean pseudo-monarchist in that power was passed from father to son because of one of the most extreme personality cults in history, which is today stronger than ever.

Stalin, Mao, and Hoxha didn't seem to completely approve of their cults, at least, and expressed a desire to get rid of them. Not so with Kim. The North Korean state is the most revisionist yet, so much that it has completely abandoned all references to socialism in its constitution.

I'm a Marxist-Leninist and I support Stalin. However I see Kim the same as I see Gorbachev and I have no sympathy for Jucheists. North Korea is dead weight for Marxism-Leninism and those who think otherwise have been seduced by wishful thinking.

[Tablo]

Um, I didn't say it was feudal. I mean pseudo-monarchist in that power was passed from father to son because of one of the most extreme personality cults in history, which is today stronger than ever.

Stalin, Mao, and Hoxha didn't seem to completely approve of their cults, at least, and expressed a desire to get rid of them. Not so with Kim. The North Korean state is the most revisionist yet, so much that it has completely abandoned all references to socialism in its constitution.

I'm a Marxist-Leninist and I support Stalin. However I see Kim the same as I see Gorbachev and I have no sympathy for Jucheists. North Korea is dead weight for Marxism-Leninism and those who think otherwise have been seduced by wishful thinking.
As much as I dislike Marxist-Leninist theory I am glad you are one of the more rational thinkers here. North Korea has done nothing but given the Revolutionary Left a bad reputation.

[Weezer]

I would say that North Korea is not Communist but is a product of the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution in Russia and certainly a regime that is akin to Fascism.

Ummm...no?

[scarletghoul]

Being fascist and ultra-nationalist will make you no friends unless you will provide them financial benefits.
Fascism provides great financial benefits for global capitalism. That's why Hitler got so much support from US capitalists.


I love this. There's another one of those words we see here at RevLeft: "opportunistic."

You can toss around all the usual slurs as much as you like,
These 'slurs' exist for a reason. They are accurate labels for the kinds of shitty positions and arguments like yours, which have occured since the beginning of leftist debate.

Secondly, "de facto" has a meaning, and it's not "equal to."

Again, "de facto" has a meaning, and it's not "literal." Since you evidently couldn't spot it, the serf/lord bit was an analogy.

My analogy to feudal monarchy was predicated on a select few salient and fundamental features (plural; I neither said, nor implied, that personality cults = feudalism), and was, once again, stated as de facto, not literal (I hope three repetitions is a charm).

What do you mean, "too"? I don't consider northern Korea a feudal monarchy, because it isn't one; I consider it a de facto feudal monarchy, because it resembles one. (Looks like three repetitions wasn't a charm.)

In real life, I'd have immediately cut you off and said "de facto, de facto, de facto" until I was heard. And then the rest of your posts could not have been uttered, since they're all predicated on not understanding what the fuck "de facto" means.
I think you should look up the definition of 'de facto'. It means in fact, in practice. It does not mean 'resembling'. I cannot be arsed to argue with the kind of moron who uses this word again and again (in italics too, how sophisticated) without knowing what it means.

Definitely not fascism, but an ultra-nationalist, chavunistic pseudo-monarchy.
do you know what pseudo means ??

Comrades, please stop using these old words incorrectly !


North Korea has done nothing but given the Revolutionary Left a bad reputation.
It's called anti-communist propaganda. Russian Revolution gave us a 'bad reputation' ...

[scarletghoul]

I would say that North Korea is not Communist but is a product of the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution in Russia and certainly a regime that is akin to Fascism. :laugh: i agree with this completely

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

In the past I was quite anti-DPRK as well, but by reading a lot about it from all sides of the story, I have formed my own opinion, which is actually positive.

There are many problems in the DPRK, but don't forget its still under US embargo, and over half of the world considers the DPRK its enemy or adversary. When natural disasters happen, such as floodings (which indeed happened some years ago), the only nation willing to help is China.
The imperialist nations have simply stood idly by and used the misery and deaths caused by these floodings for their propaganda against the DPRK.

The positive side of the DPRK, such as the fact of free healthcare and free education, and the fact that people in the DPRK do NOT have to pay any taxes, are mostly ignored.

A very interesting figure for the other view on the DPRK is Joe Dresnok, an American defector who still lives in North Korea. Look it up on youtube, BBC has made a documentary about him :p

[AK]

In the past I was quite anti-DPRK as well, but by reading a lot about it from all sides of the story, I have formed my own opinion, which is actually positive.
You what?!


There are many problems in the DPRK, but don't forget its still under US embargo, and over half of the world considers the DPRK its enemy or adversary. When natural disasters happen, such as floodings (which indeed happened some years ago), the only nation willing to help is China.
PRC = Cappie shithole.


The imperialist nations have simply stood idly by and used the misery and deaths caused by these floodings for their propaganda against the DPRK.
You're right. Doesn't change the fact that Juche fucked up and always will fuck up.


The positive side of the DPRK, such as the fact of free healthcare and free education,
Free healthcare? Education for all? That's socialism!!!1

On a more serious note, the healthcare and education would still be shitty. Of course, considering this is the DPRK we're talking about; it's an alright effort.


and the fact that people in the DPRK do NOT have to pay any taxes, are mostly ignored.
The Teabaggers would love this place...

Oh, right. That's where the DPRK government gets it's money from. State capitalist worker exploitation.


A very interesting figure for the other view on the DPRK is Joe Dresnok, an American defector who still lives in North Korea. Look it up on youtube, BBC has made a documentary about him :p
If you like it so much, why don't you live there? :lol:

[scarletghoul]

You what?!
Yes, he has a posetive opinion. And I'd be willing to bet that he has studied the subject more than you.


PRC = Cappie shithole.haha, thats really not the point is it.
(As an aside, China really isn't doing enough to help north Korea imo. They just give them enough to get by as a regional ally, but there is a lot more they could do, considering how rich and modernised they are. A large scale industrial/technological development aid effort like what the USSR done to China in the 50s would be awesome.. )


On a more serious note, the healthcare and education would still be shitty. Of course, considering this is the DPRK we're talking about; it's an alright effort.Wtf. Do you even have any reason to say it is shitty? Or are you just saying that because "well, i heard north korea is really bad and they are crazy". Seriously, have you ever even read a single in depth piece of writing about Korea.

No investigation, no right to speak.

I don't know a lot about their healthcare, but certainly their education system is excellent. There is a huge university graduation rate, DPRK has one of the highest average IQs in the world, a 100% literacy rate, etc.


If you like it so much, why don't you live there? :lol:yeah hur hur hur god bless amerika

[AK]

Wtf. Do you even have any reason to say it is shitty? Or are you just saying that because "well, i heard north korea is really bad and they are crazy". Seriously, have you ever even read a single in depth piece of writing about Korea. Have you ever heard of famine?

No investigation, no right to speak.
Oooohhh big words.


I don't know a lot about their healthcare, but certainly their education system is excellent. There is a huge university graduation rate, DPRK has one of the highest average IQs in the world, a 100% literacy rate, etc.
Perhaps so, but I don't fancy having my brain infected with this Juche/Kim Personality Cult bullshit.


yeah hur hur hur god bless amerikaI don't know about you, but the DPRK don't look so good. I wouldn't start defending it if I were you.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

@ Alpha Kappa: since the DPRK has nationalized about everything (there is even a state candy factory), I guess they simply don't need any tax money.
I'm not saying that's the ideal way, but it seems to be working.

[AK]

@ Alpha Kappa: since the DPRK has nationalized about everything (there is even a state candy factory), I guess they simply don't need any tax money.
I'm not saying that's the ideal way, but it seems to be working.
Yes. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Now what modern day dominant socio-economic system does that remind me of...

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

Yes. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Now what modern day dominant socio-economic system does that remind me of...
Kind of lost me there. How do the Workers get poorer without being exploited by a capitalist and without paying taxes? Please enlighten me...

[AK]

Kind of lost me there. How do the Workers get poorer without being exploited by a capitalist and without paying taxes? Please enlighten me...
State capitalism: the state replaces private owners. 'Nuff said.

And the poorness is some of the time a purely relative thing. In relation to richness.

[Chambered Word]

Don't be an idiot, the DPRK needs those weapons.

You've got a good point here.


No democracy? there are 3 political parties in the DPRK.

I would like to see the source for this and I'd like you to point to a reliable source that indicates that there have also been fair elections in the DPRK recently.


The only reason Trots rant and rave about the Korean system is because they are barred from being part of it.

So basically there's no democracy either way. Cool story bro.


Need I remind you of the Trotskyite interview in Solidarity/ Against the Current where they said:

“We would like to have contact with North Korean workers, but there is no dissident group of revolutionary workers. What dissidents there are have no base in the working class. Workers so far are absolutely controlled by the party.”

'Because if you don't like the DPRK, you just hate freedom!' Alright, whatever mate. :rolleyes:


My oh my, what interest the Trots seem to have in getting in touch with 'dissidents'. I s'pose we know where your loyalties lie when it comes to defending the DPRK against imperialism eh?

According to your logic we shouldn't support revolutions in non-imperialist capitalist nations.

[Gravedigger01]

I have read up a little bit on North Korea and I have to say that it has positive qualities such as a good transport system,great Education program,99% literacy and other things however I think the health care is quite bad and the country does seem to be quite authoritarian(although not to the extent that the Media portrays)

There is a personality cult around Kim Jong Il and the system of choosing the supreme leader is a lot like a Monarchy however the democratically elected premier would be in charge of choosing the cabinet.So it is like Kim Jong Il is the British Queen who has no power but is the face of the country while Kim Yong Il(premier) is the Prime Minister who is really in charge of the country.This is not to say that Kim Jong Il has little power. He is still the face of North Korea as well as the Genral Secretary of the largest North Korean Party and in charge of the North Korean People's Army

There are elections in North Korea every 5 years.It is compulsary to vote unless you seriously can't(if you are ill and bed-ridden).People choose which candidates they wish to elect.There are three different parties altough all have the same basic ideology and are allied in the "Democratic Front for reunification of the Fatherland" which seeks to unify South and North Korea through peaceful mothods.Although any candidate can run for office it is unusual for more than one candidate to run in a region.This indicates that the representitives are pre-determained and that there is no real democratic process.

North Korea has a completely centrally planned economy meaning there is no free market(Cuba is the only fully centrally planned country in the world).Because of the fall of the Soviet Union the country no longer got cheap concessions from their Neighbour Russia meaning there were energy and food shortages for 3 years in North Korea whichled to a Famine.Since then China has taken the place of the Soviet Union as North Korea's key ally who they get aid and cheap imports off.

Reading upon North Korea actually made me think better of North Korea.I believe that they are Socialist because of the centrally planned economy and they provide free healthcare and education but not Democratic Socialist becuase the elections semm to be just a show and also they are quite authoritarian.I believe that they are Socialist but we should condemn their anti-democratic and authoritarian bahaviour

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

State capitalism: the state replaces private owners. 'Nuff said.

And the poorness is some of the time a purely relative thing. In relation to richness.
In state capitalism the economy wold still be controlled by a class of factory owners, CEO's and managers, and the money flow to the pockets of this capitalist class.
I have just pointed out that that is not the case.

[AK]

In state capitalism the economy wold still be controlled by a class of factory owners, CEO's and managers, and the money flow to the pockets of this capitalist class.
I have just pointed out that that is not the case.
Well then let's figure out a new name for what I call "state capitalism". Let's call it... false socialism or something of the sort.

[Chambered Word]

In state capitalism the economy wold still be controlled by a class of factory owners, CEO's and managers, and the money flow to the pockets of this capitalist class.
I have just pointed out that that is not the case.

That's private capitalism.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

That's private capitalism.
Nope.
State capitalism means the state officially takes over, but is directly under control of the capitalist class.
Private capitalism means that the state doesn't intervene at all.
I.e. nazi Germany.

[Panda Tse Tung]

I think the material conditions of North Korea speak for themselves it cannot be defended any more than a state like Iran or Libya can be defended. While i agree that to just say a certain country is feudal or fascist with no basis is petty but as leftists their is very little defense of North Korea that can be made.

No democracy
No workers control
No trade unions

What is their in reality to defend in North Korea?

I'd say these specific features define what would be the (ultra-)revisionism of North Korea. The positive aspects which would fall away with the overthrow of Juche by capitalists would be the centrally planned economy, workers benefits and anti-imperialism of the current state. Which makes them worth a bit more of a defence then say Iran or Libya (which i both defend only against Imperialism).

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Nope.
State capitalism means the state officially takes over, but is directly under control of the capitalist class.
Private capitalism means that the state doesn't intervene at all.
I.e. nazi Germany.

This is the DPRK. It even says so in many official news stories and reports - they will reference 'state enforcement', rather than 'workers' democratic control'.

I appreciate that the blatant anti-DPRK propaganda in the west may rile some M-Ls, but that doesn't mean that it should be defended more rigorously than it otherwise would be. It is State-Capitalist at best, and then on top of that you do have one of the most extreme cults of personality, famine, shoddy healthcare (indicated by the high prevalance of cataracts in the population), nuclear weapons.

Now, we can, in a reasonable and calm way, point out that Kim Jong Il is not some asiatic 'kamikaze', that not everyone lives on the streets in rags eating dead pigeons just to make it through to the next day.
Regardless, even if it is not some 'hellhole' (although there is certain evidence that points towards this direction), it is most certainly State Capitalist. It is definitely not Socialist, since, despite not paying taxes (although i'd like a link for proof), workers do not control the means of production.

I simply don't understand the thought process behind defending this place so rigorously. Defend it from lies and untruths, certainly, but for god sake have the ability to see that this place is not Socialist, and barring a revolution from below, will not simply become Socialist once the nasty yankees get off its back.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

A slight change of subject but what exactly is Juche? Is it a coherent political philosophy or could it be regarded more as a set of slogans and postures? Wikipedia (that infallible source of wisdom) says Juche has supplanted Marxism-Leninism and that "some of the Marxist classics are banned". Is this true and if so what does it mean? Are Capital and State and Revolution forbidden?

What I've found is that Juche seems to combine extreme nationalism with a type of humanism (what little of the "thought" of Kim ill Song I've been able to come up with.) Juche has also been called a "state religion". Is that "official" or more the opinion of western Korea watchers?

Also are there any good books or works available on the early history of the Korean Worker's Party?

[Chimurenga.]

A slight change of subject but what exactly is Juche? Is it a coherent political philosophy or could it be regarded more as a set of slogans and postures? Wikipedia (that infallible source of wisdom) says Juche has supplanted Marxism-Leninism and that "some of the Marxist classics are banned". Is this true and if so what does it mean? Are Capital and State and Revolution forbidden?

What I've found is that Juche seems to combine extreme nationalism with a type of humanism (what little of the "thought" of Kim ill Song I've been able to come up with.) Juche has also been called a "state religion". Is that "official" or more the opinion of western Korea watchers?

Also are there any good books or works available on the early history of the Korean Worker's Party?

My understanding of Juche is that the military class replaces the proletariat class and is the center focus. If anyone has a better understanding of Jucheist theory, please, feel free to correct me.

[Chambered Word]

Nope.
State capitalism means the state officially takes over, but is directly under control of the capitalist class.
Private capitalism means that the state doesn't intervene at all.
I.e. nazi Germany.

So according to you the US is state capitalist because it runs on a mixed economy? :rolleyes:

[Panda Tse Tung]

My understanding of Juche is that the military class replaces the proletariat class and is the center focus. If anyone has a better understanding of Jucheist theory, please, feel free to correct me.
Thats Songun which means military first. Also, there is no such thing as a 'military class'. Songun is a recent policy of the DPRK and not the same as Juche, though both are interconnected.


A slight change of subject but what exactly is Juche? Is it a coherent political philosophy or could it be regarded more as a set of slogans and postures? Wikipedia (that infallible source of wisdom) says Juche has supplanted Marxism-Leninism and that "some of the Marxist classics are banned". Is this true and if so what does it mean? Are Capital and State and Revolution forbidden?

Juche has 3 primary pillars, independant politics, economic self sustainance and being able to defend yourself without foreign assistence.
It's encompassed with a huge cult of personality as well. The word Juche iirc means Autarky.

Here's some works:
http://www.korea-dpr.com/lib/
http://www.marxists.org/archive/kim-il-sung/index.htm

Also idk about any forbidden books.



Juche has also been called a "state religion". Is that "official" or more the opinion of western Korea watchers?

It's an opinion, but not per se an invalid one.



Also are there any good books or works available on the early history of the Korean Worker's Party?

Maybe my previous links have some usefull info, cant think of any good works tho.

[AK]

Of course state ownership is state capitalism. Because a capitalist class exists; the state. It owns the means of production - as opposed to the working class which does not.

[RedHK]

Of course state ownership is state capitalism. Because a capitalist class exists; the state. It owns the means of production - as opposed to the working class which does not.

Another question, for you comrade, are the people still caring about or fighting for the communist revolution they were originally fighting for, if they were fighting for it at all?

[Rjevan]

Of course state ownership is state capitalism. Because a capitalist class exists; the state. It owns the means of production - as opposed to the working class which does not.
General and not DPRK-related note: The state is not a class, it is the dictatorship of one class over another class. If it is a socialist state (= dictatorship of the proletariat) then the workers are in control of the means of productions. You can argue against the concept of a vanguard party or the state in general but to say "state ownership of means of productions = automatically and under all circumstances capitalism" is nonsense. Otherwise Engels would have been an advocate of capitalism, saying this:

Whilst it [capitalism] forces on more and more of the transformation of the vast means of production, already socialized, into State property, it shows itself the way to accomplishing this revolution. The proletariat seizes political power and turns the means of production into State property.
...
When, at last, it [the state] becomes the real representative of the whole of society, it renders itself unnecessary... The first act by virtue of which the State really constitutes itself the representative of the whole of society — the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society — this is, at the same time, its last independent act as a State. State interference in social relations becomes, in one domain after another, superfluous, and then dies out of itself; the government of persons is replaced by the administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production. The State is not "abolished". It dies out.
...
With the seizing of the means of production by society, production of commodities is done away with, and, simultaneously, the mastery of the product over the producer. Anarchy in social production is replaced by systematic, definite organization... The proletariat seizes the public power, and by means of this transforms the socialized means of production, slipping from the hands of the bourgeoisie, into public property. By this act, the proletariat frees the means of production from the character of capital they have thus far borne, and gives their socialized character complete freedom to work itself out. Socialized production upon a predetermined plan becomes henceforth possible.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm

[Ztrain]

Why cant people see,that North Korean communism is just as horrible as fascism...when the people are starving and your dictators continues to brutally enforce his rule,you dont have a Marxist state,the closest nation to Marxism is Cuba and Venesuela

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

A slight change of subject but what exactly is Juche? Is it a coherent political philosophy or could it be regarded more as a set of slogans and postures? Wikipedia (that infallible source of wisdom) says Juche has supplanted Marxism-Leninism and that "some of the Marxist classics are banned". Is this true and if so what does it mean? Are Capital and State and Revolution forbidden?

What I've found is that Juche seems to combine extreme nationalism with a type of humanism (what little of the "thought" of Kim ill Song I've been able to come up with.) Juche has also been called a "state religion". Is that "official" or more the opinion of western Korea watchers?

Also are there any good books or works available on the early history of the Korean Worker's Party?
The split between Juche and Marxism-Leninism is a trick of the capitalist media to divide the Working Class and the Communist movement worldwide.

[Nolan]

Why cant people see,that North Korean communism is just as horrible as fascism...when the people are starving and your dictators continues to brutally enforce his rule,you dont have a Marxist state,the closest nation to Marxism is Cuba and Venesuela

Venezuela is in no way socialist (yet, hopefully)

[Os Cangaceiros]

General and not DPRK-related note: The state is not a class, it is the dictatorship of one class over another class. If it is a socialist state (= dictatorship of the proletariat) then the workers are in control of the means of productions. You can argue against the concept of a vanguard party or the state in general but to say "state ownership of means of productions = automatically and under all circumstances capitalism" is nonsense. Otherwise Engels would have been an advocate of capitalism, saying this:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm

Engels had more to say about state-ownership of the means of production:


But, the transformation — either into joint-stock companies and trusts, or into State-ownership — does not do away with the capitalistic nature of the productive forces. In the joint-stock companies and trusts, this is obvious. And the modern State, again, is only the organization that bourgeois society takes on in order to support the external conditions of the capitalist mode of production against the encroachments as well of the workers as of individual capitalists. The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine — the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians.

Hypothetically speaking if the working class really did control the state, then state ownership wouldn't take on the characteristic of merely being a change of power in favor of the "new bourgeoisie". In my opinion this has never happened, however, and it certainly isn't the case in North Korea.

As for my opinion of N. Korea: it's an oppresive military dictatorship beset by imperialism.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The split between Juche and Marxism-Leninism is a trick of the capitalist media to divide the Working Class and the Communist movement worldwide.

Aside from the fact that many of us do not pay that much attention to the capitalist media, and are capable of independent thought.

I find that comment shocking patronising, in all honesty.

I've laid out my arguments for why, on balance, I do not support the DPRK nor do I believe it is a friend of Socialism in any way.

If it was, it would make more than just the odd cursory reference to 'Socialism', which as we know, is a word raped by many nationalist and national liberation movements. The DPRK doesn't even bother to pay lip service to the notion of establishing communism, of following the ideology of Marxism or Marxism-Leninism. If it is so defiant as to regularly engage in diplomatic stand-offs with the strongest nation in the world, not to mention defy the US on the issue of nuclear weapons, why doesn't it declare itself on the path to communism, or of following a Marxist ideology?

[Valeofruin]

Aside from the fact that many of us do not pay that much attention to the capitalist media, and are capable of independent thought.

I find that comment shocking patronising, in all honesty.

I've laid out my arguments for why, on balance, I do not support the DPRK nor do I believe it is a friend of Socialism in any way.

If it was, it would make more than just the odd cursory reference to 'Socialism', which as we know, is a word raped by many nationalist and national liberation movements. The DPRK doesn't even bother to pay lip service to the notion of establishing communism, of following the ideology of Marxism or Marxism-Leninism. If it is so defiant as to regularly engage in diplomatic stand-offs with the strongest nation in the world, not to mention defy the US on the issue of nuclear weapons, why doesn't it declare itself on the path to communism, or of following a Marxist ideology?

and where did you get your information on North Korea?

(inb4 the capitalist media, and 'WHY STALINISM IS BAD by: leontrotskyluvr9 with a special introduction by Noam Chomsky that's almost as large as the actual book')

Oh and, in case you haven't actually read the constitution of the DPRK, heres the first words of it.

"The Socialist Constitution of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea

The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a socialist fatherland of Juche which embodies the idea of and guidance by the great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung.

The great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung is the founder of the DPRK and the socialist Korea.

Comrade Kim Il Sung founded the immortal Juche idea, organized and guided an anti-Japanese revolutionary struggle under its banner, created revolutionary tradition, attained the historical cause of the national liberation, and founded the DPRK, built up a solid basis of construction of a sovereign and independent state in the fields of politics, economy, culture and military, and founded the DPRK.

Comrade Kim Il Sung put forward an independent revolutionary line, wisely guided the social revolution and construction at various levels, strengthened and developed the Republic into a people-centered socialist country and a socialist state of independence, self-sustenance, and self-defense.

Etc etc.. Kim il Sung worship etc etc..

Chapter 1 Politics

Article 1

The Democratic People 's Republic of Korea is an independent socialist state representing the interests of all the Korean people

...

Article 5

All the State organs in the DPRK are formed and function on the principle of democratic centralism.


...

Article 43

The State shall put the principles of socialist education into practice and raise the new generation to be steadfast revolutionaries who will fight for society and the people, to be people of a new communist type who are knowledgeable, morally sound and physically healthy.

...

Article 52

The State shall develop a Juche-oriented, revolutionary literature and art, national in form and socialist in content."


yes.. clearly the DPRK has made NO mention of socialism or communism in its constitution....

[Os Cangaceiros]

and where did you get your information on North Korea?

(inb4 the capitalist media, and 'WHY STALINISM IS BAD by: leontrotskyluvr9 with a special introduction by Noam Chomsky that's almost as large as the actual book')


Most of us have no choice but to get our information from "the capitalist media". You should take what you read and hear with a grain of salt, but just because the media exists under capitalism doesn't mean that news executives sit in a boardroom and brainstorm slanderous lies about North Korea to keep people in the dark about the amazing miracle of socialism there.

Perhaps you can suggest alternative sources for us to investigate, preferably ones that don't involve DPRK publications (although I'm sure that those are COMPLETELY NON-BIASED)?

[Demogorgon]

Which is a bullshit demand because we both know North Korean ballots dont exactly fall out of the sky.

I cant pull some random ballot to prove they have competition, and you cant pull some random ballot (not some bullshit like kim jong ils election) to prove they do not.

The only reason your opinions have more credibility and you can place the burden of proof on me is because the bourgeois approve of what you are saying. Kind of like when it comes to Stalin bashing... there is no Innocent until proven guilty when it comes to communists is there? Stalin is a mass murdering maniac, just like North Korea is a 'pseudo monarchist dictatorship' until proven otherwise amirite?
Which side are you really on?

No, let's try again. If your views have some kind of validity, there will be some sort of evidence won't there? Come on, surely you can cough up one single example of political choice offered to the people. that falls far below anybody's standards of democracy incidentally, most dictatorships offer some people some choice. But this one doesn't allow any at all it seems, unless you wish to try and prove otherwise?

[Demogorgon]

Incidentally, given the Government of North Korea itself has dropped claims of being Communist, why do certain people here feel the need to still claim it is? Its own propaganda has largely given up on trying to pretend that!

[Valeofruin]

Most of us have no choice but to get our information from "the capitalist media". You should take what you read and hear with a grain of salt, but just because the media exists under capitalism doesn't mean that news executives sit in a boardroom and brainstorm slanderous lies about North Korea to keep people in the dark about the amazing miracle of socialism there.

Perhaps you can suggest alternative sources for us to investigate, preferably ones that don't involve DPRK publications (although I'm sure that those are COMPLETELY NON-BIASED)?

lol they do involve dprk publications, thats the point, i see both the capitalist and korean propaganda and try to discern whats true and false.

As for CEOs slandering the DPRK, thats EXACTLY what they do.. slandering the DPRK sells papers. Further, news executives are remarkably anti communist, because it is against their material interests and most of them lived in the days when communism was a threat and propaganda against it important. In addition to this, in the case of media sources such as fox, without bashing places like the DPRK, how could they portray left wing competition at home as savages?

[Demogorgon]

yes.. clearly the DPRK has made NO mention of socialism or communism in its constitution....
Aside from the fact that it systematically ignores its own constitution, you do realise that much of that was amended out at the last revision?

Moreover the extraordinary cult of personality seen in what you quoted should probably be ringing alarm bells, no?

[Os Cangaceiros]

As for CEOs slandering the DPRK, thats EXACTLY what they do.. slandering the DPRK sells papers. Further, news executives are remarkably anti communist, because it is against their material interests and most of them lived in the days when communism was a threat and propaganda against it important. In addition to this, in the case of media sources such as fox, without bashing places like the DPRK, how could they portray left wing competition at home as savages?

Is it your position that US media outlets actually invent news stories about N. Korea out of whole cloth? Or do they simply exaggerate the plight of the North Koreans?

[Valeofruin]

Aside from the fact that it systematically ignores its own constitution, you do realise that much of that was amended out at the last revision?

Moreover the extraordinary cult of personality seen in what you quoted should probably be ringing alarm bells, no?

Ummm, no, that is the current version.

You can check KCNA for the full up to date constitution.

Nows a good time to admit you heard about the revisions in a news story or blog post and didn't actually check the Korean sites to see what was changed...


Is it your position that US media outlets actually invent news stories about N. Korea out of whole cloth? Or do they simply exaggerate the plight of the North Koreans?

They exaggerate mostly, but if there is a bogus lead they will take it as well. For example the rumors of Kim Jong il selecting a successor are pure speculation.. they could be right, they could be wrong, but theres certainly not enough evidence to run with it.

Same goes for the secret shopper... noone knows exactly what he bought.. its literally just the word of 1 man, and they are spinning it to make it appear more credible and important then it really is.

[comrade_cyanide444]

I'm sure we can all agree here that DPRK is definitely not completely Communist. It's sort of a Stalinist style Oligarchical-Military Isolated state. Juche itself takes ideas from Mao and Stalin, and most of Juche arose from Stalinism, as North Korea was formed during Stalin's era. In fact, DPRK paraded all that Communistic wording to please the USSR and continue to receive support. After 1991 DPRK has tried to distance itself from any known form of Communism like Leninism or Trotskyism, and has formed its own so-called "Socialist" system (Juche). The DPRK shares striking similarities with Stalin's USSR. There is a far more extreme personality cult, so far as to say that Kim Jonh Il is a superhuman being. In general Koreans are very Nationalistic in the sense that they have great national pride. Although DPRK appears to be a fascist state, it is not necessarily fascist. It is true however that DPRK spends most of its money on military and emphasizes military very much. The DPRK is neither Communist nor Fascist. It is completely different. The economic system tries to conform to Communism, but as the ruling people have 1000x more wealth than the working class, this isn't Communism. Most of the high ranking officers and political workers have the vehicles, food, and wealth.

It is true that the media exaggerates A LOT about North Korea. Most of the famine is because of the construction of a huge dam by Kim Jong Il, which ends up destroying vital rice crops. This dam is very unnecessary. It was built to impress Westerners mainly. In fact, DPRK removed the word "Communist" from its charter some years ago after the USSR dissolved. Communist was replaced with Juche. The reason DPRK is so isolated is a) the leaders will not allow dissent (that's a fact) b) the West automatically blocks itself from any anti-Capitalist or Western countries. This is indeed state capitalism, and not communism.


Because DPRK hasn't sold itself to the capitalist tourist industry in the way Cuba has. This is a good thing, when you consider the effects Cuba's reliance on tourism has had on it.

Wrong, there's the Kŭmgangsan Tourist Region

DPRK actually allows a lot of tourism, just not in Industrial centers or normal cities.

[AK]

General and not DPRK-related note: The state is not a class, it is the dictatorship of one class over another class. If it is a socialist state (= dictatorship of the proletariat) then the workers are in control of the means of productions. You can argue against the concept of a vanguard party or the state in general but to say "state ownership of means of productions = automatically and under all circumstances capitalism" is nonsense. Otherwise Engels would have been an advocate of capitalism, saying this:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm
Then I guess I'm an evil revisionist of some sort. Either way. Direct workers' ownership and management is better.

[Demogorgon]

Ummm, no, that is the current version.

You can check KCNA for the full up to date constitution.

Nows a good time to admit you heard about the revisions in a news story or blog post and didn't actually check the Korean sites to see what was changed...

My goodness. The person accusing us of listening to false news is telling us to get our information from where exactly?

Anyway, I am still waiting on some evidence of democracy in North Korea.

[Demogorgon]

Actually, let me clarify a bit. I have not read the new North Korean Constitution because as far as I am aware, it has not been translated into English yet, but I have read the previous version and even that is pretty bare bones on the mention of socialism. As I understand it however, the last references to Communism are stripped away and mentions of socialism are down to just three words.

Of course all of this is rather besides the point, because it is not as if the Constitution is followed anyway, but let's get our facts straight.

[Comrade Akai]

North Korea is a psychotic totalitarian dictatorship. I would not call it fascist because it does not seem to place any emphasis on corporatism.

[Gravedigger01]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/world/NorKoreaConstitution.pdf

Here is the 2009 conistitution of North Korean.It is only in Korean and not in English yet. Sadly my computer can't recognise the Korean Alphabet wso I can't transltate it perhaps somebody else would have more luck

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

and where did you get your information on North Korea?

(inb4 the capitalist media, and 'WHY STALINISM IS BAD by: leontrotskyluvr9 with a special introduction by Noam Chomsky that's almost as large as the actual book')

Oh and, in case you haven't actually read the constitution of the DPRK, heres the first words of it.

"The Socialist Constitution of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea

The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a socialist fatherland of Juche which embodies the idea of and guidance by the great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung.

The great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung is the founder of the DPRK and the socialist Korea.

Comrade Kim Il Sung founded the immortal Juche idea, organized and guided an anti-Japanese revolutionary struggle under its banner, created revolutionary tradition, attained the historical cause of the national liberation, and founded the DPRK, built up a solid basis of construction of a sovereign and independent state in the fields of politics, economy, culture and military, and founded the DPRK.

Comrade Kim Il Sung put forward an independent revolutionary line, wisely guided the social revolution and construction at various levels, strengthened and developed the Republic into a people-centered socialist country and a socialist state of independence, self-sustenance, and self-defense.

Etc etc.. Kim il Sung worship etc etc..

Chapter 1 Politics

Article 1

The Democratic People 's Republic of Korea is an independent socialist state representing the interests of all the Korean people

...

Article 5

All the State organs in the DPRK are formed and function on the principle of democratic centralism.


...

Article 43

The State shall put the principles of socialist education into practice and raise the new generation to be steadfast revolutionaries who will fight for society and the people, to be people of a new communist type who are knowledgeable, morally sound and physically healthy.

...

Article 52

The State shall develop a Juche-oriented, revolutionary literature and art, national in form and socialist in content."


yes.. clearly the DPRK has made NO mention of socialism or communism in its constitution....

I use a variety of sources.

I've had a look at some human rights (obviously you'll reject this as 'bourgeois' no doubt) commission reports, detailing hundreds of pages of abuses. Obviously some i've taken with a pinch of salt, but some instances of abuse have been believable.

It is obviously quite difficult to extract quality information regarding the DPRK as there is pretty much a news blackout, so you are forced in the main to choose between spurious Capitalist claptrap, or state-news. I try to take a mix, and also to listen to the views of comrades on here.

I also don't appreciate your whole 'inb4 blah blah blah' references, they're a bit patronising and insulting. I'm clearly not a 'KIM JONG IL FASCIST NAZI STALIN BLAH BLAH' poster.

Also, in reference to the Constitution you pasted parts of, it does yes contain the occasional mention of Socialism. Nowhere does it mention Communism, Marxism or Leninism. Now, as i've said previously, I don't really think we can take the occasional use of the word 'Socialism' as evidence that the DPRK is in fact of such a persuasion; as i've said previously, the word is open to abuse from all sorts of non-leftist groups and ideologies. Besides, as i've said before (and I feel like i'm repeating myself now, since you clearly won't accept what i'm saying), if they were so for Communism or Marxism, why would they remove such references in their constitution and state articles, and simply leave the epithet of 'Socialism'. Symbolism much?

[robbo203]

Well clearly North Korea has got nothing to do with communism or socialism - or ever had. It is a matter of how you define these terms. The traditional marxian usage envisages communism or socialism (these terms were seen as synoyms) as a stateless, wageless, marketless community in which the means of production were held in common. This hardly describes North Korea or any of the other so called "socialist" (state capitalist) states.

Whether or not North Korea describes itself, or aspects of state policy, in its constitution as "socialist" is irrelevant. This hardly makes it socialist. Otherwise we would be obliged to acknowlege that the "national socialism" of the Nazis contained an element of "socialism"!