Right-Wingers in a Post-Revolutionary society (concerns)

[Hexen]

Lets just say that capitalism has been overthrown and a post-revolution society has to been established but it left me worried about this one concern...what about the 'former' Right-Wingers (Libertarians, Conservatives, etc) within the society? Would they become the society's 'criminals' who are trying to "get things back they were once before"? Or maybe they would turn into complete psychopaths especially if they believe the "human nature" myth so much (which would be ironic actually which would reveal what they truly are)? Or maybe they would change due to some self-realization due to the material conditions?

[¿Que?]

In other words, what's up with all this habit shit?

[JAH23]

While it's easy to say "lock 'em up!" (I'm sure only the worst reactionaries would be), I think those opposed to the revolution will just have to accept it. However, once they realize all the benefits of a socialist society, perhaps they might change their minds.

[danyboy27]

when the reich fell, Many people lost their illusion about national-socialism and hitler.

I think that would somehow happen, if our product (communism) bring more benefit and life standard, well we will probably make new friend.

For the rest, well, i think they would be verry important in a communist society, Beccause Opposition, even the most absurd one Force people to innovate and prove them wrong.

Also, the last Hardcore individual would be more like a reminder of the past, our less glorious past of our.

a community will always be stronger than a fews individual if those individuals dont control the mean of productions.

with a minimum dose of vigilance and awareness, i can assume we can avoid those crooks to come back in power.

[JacobVardy]

Or, once the rest of the world is communist, let them have a little capitalist enclave, say Texas or Iceland or wherever. If some one really just can not live in a communist society, some one who has to play cappie-and-lackey, then let them. We are talking about a world revolution, they have no minions to force to fight us, why bother locking them up?

[chegitz guevara]

Lets just say that capitalism has been overthrown and a post-revolution society has to been established but it left me worried about this one concern...what about the 'former' Right-Wingers (Libertarians, Conservatives, etc) within the society? Would they become the society's 'criminals' who are trying to "get things back they were once before"?

This.

This is why anarchy is naive, because after the revolution, unless the workers create their own state to repress those who would return us to capitalism, they will succeed.


Or maybe they would change due to some self-realization due to the material conditions?

And this.

In every post-revolutionary society so far, as the material conditions improved, many former reactionaries switch sides. Hopefully we can encourage more the latter, so we have to engage in less repressing of the former.

[Crusade]

This.

This is why anarchy is naive, because after the revolution, unless the workers create their own state to repress those who would return us to capitalism, they will succeed.

And who would protect us from those within our own state who would return us to capitalism?

[MarxSchmarx]

This is why anarchy is naive, because after the revolution, unless the workers create their own state to repress those who would return us to capitalism, they will succeed.


Why? Why would a liberated worker should go work for a capitalist, much less accept their bile?



when the reich fell, Many people lost their illusion about national-socialism and hitler.

That's actually a tricky analogy, because there was a concious effort at "de-Nazification" in western occupied Germany and in the east they were often simply lined up against the wall. Although several fascist bureaucrats survived to continue administering the new regimes, Allied powers did systematically seek to ensure through force that former Nazis were discredited.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

This.

This is why anarchy is naive, because after the revolution, unless the workers create their own state to repress those who would return us to capitalism, they will succeed.

But we want to create something in place of the state, Anarchist's don't believe the state can be replaced by nothing. Just because this wouldn't be a centralised authority of organisation doesn't mean it would be incapable of suppressing reactionaries.

[Red Commissar]

Why? Why would a liberated worker should go work for a capitalist, much less accept their bile?

If the revolution occurs and workers are holding the same misconceptions about socialism, they can easily be fooled to go back to "civilization".

There will be some who will in time realize that the new way is better, but at the onset of revolution there will be those who will cling to capitalism, or what they think is capitalism.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Obviously it is difficult to do more than hypothesise.

However, we Marxists know that the overwhelming majority of people in the world (and in all nations) are workers. Socialism, if it is practised correctly, should benefit the working class.

Thus, if we educate (not just 'agitate, agitate, agitate' in a political-propaganda manner) the workers correctly, not just on the revolution and politics but generally, and if we behave morally and correctly, we should be able to nudge the overwhelming majority of people towards Socialism, towards a fair, humane and equal world (sorry that sounds woolly!).

Don't forget that many of these 'right-wingers' are workers like you and I. The only difference is self-realisation.

Obviously, there will always be those members of the bourgeoisie with interests relating to land, capital and their own personal ownership of these. They will always be rogue. For them, the attitude must be 'with us, or without us.' I'd hope that, in a non-dogmatic, inclusive Socialist world, though, the overwhelming majority of people would turn to Socialism and embrace it.

[Proletarian Ultra]

Although several fascist bureaucrats survived to continue administering the new regimes, Allied powers did systematically seek to ensure through force that former Nazis were discredited.

Hmm. The big fish were put on trial. A lot of medium-sized fish were shipped to Latin America or elsewhere. The majority of West German judges and civil servants were holdovers from the Nazi era. As was/is the West German legal system - e.g. the extremely reactionary law on homosexuality. The major postwar party leaders had more or less respectable anti-Nazi cred, but lower down the cabinets were full of 3rd Reich nomenklatura. On top of that, the Allies insisted that the President be given the same emergency powers under the constitution tinclude a clause on emergency powers taken nearly word for word from the Weimar Republic - you know, the clause that allowed...You get the picture.

Basically, the Federal Republic is a Nazi successor state.

[MarxSchmarx]

Why? Why would a liberated worker should go work for a capitalist, much less accept their bile?
If the revolution occurs and workers are holding the same misconceptions about socialism, they can easily be fooled to go back to "civilization".

There will be some who will in time realize that the new way is better, but at the onset of revolution there will be those who will cling to capitalism, or what they think is capitalism.

What you describe is a coup by a select few whereby the majority of people are excluded from the new order, at least in its earliest days. No serious social change can function without mass support from the bottom up. There will be exceptions, yes, but those will be exceptions if the struggle is to triumph.


Hmm. The big fish were put on trial. A lot of medium-sized fish were shipped to Latin America or elsewhere. The majority of West German judges and civil servants were holdovers from the Nazi era. As was/is the West German legal system - e.g. the extremely reactionary law on homosexuality. The major postwar party leaders had more or less respectable anti-Nazi cred, but lower down the cabinets were full of 3rd Reich nomenklatura. On top of that, the Allies insisted that the President be given the same emergency powers under the constitution tinclude a clause on emergency powers taken nearly word for word from the Weimar Republic - you know, the clause that allowed...You get the picture.

Basically, the Federal Republic is a Nazi successor state.

My point was that such "disillusionment" after massive social upheaval in Germany didn't happen by magic. Whatever gains were made against the rightists in Germany was due largely to an imposition by foreign powers. That even this effort failed suggests that those who had something to lose (i.e., ex-Nazis) didn't readily embrace the new order and only through the contingent historical fact that some of their occupiers didn't really care about their Nazi pasts were they able to ignore it.

As a point of historical record, what you say is somewhat true in French and British occupied Germany. In American and Soviet occupied Germany millions of functionaries were put on trial - however in the American occupied west denazification became a mere formality in later years as the USSR became the main foreign enemy.

Nevertheless, to the extent that any severance of the link between nazism and the FDR occurred, it was initially almost entirely due to foreign direct intervention. And certainly this was the case in the east.

[InuyashaKnight]

Id deport them

[Weezer]

When feudalism fell in respective areas, where were the feudalist nostalgics, at least a sizable minority of them?

[Tablo]

I feel like we should let them do their own thing, and as they try to exploit workers the workers will see a better life in Communism and come join us. Then, eventually, the crazies will either join us or join the primmies in the woods(I don't see primitivism dying so we may as well let them starve to death in the forest if they want it sooo bad).

From a more personal and emotional standpoint I would have the overwhelming desire to beat the cappies faces in with a rock for simply supporting a system that resulted in the suffering of countless people.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

They need to be very closely monitored (that why some of the best secret services were founded in Socialist nations) and any sbversive activity they try to make are to be severely punished.

[Stand Your Ground]

I feel like we should let them do their own thing, and as they try to exploit workers the workers will see a better life in Communism and come join us. Then, eventually, the crazies will either join us or join the primmies in the woods(I don't see primitivism dying so we may as well let them starve to death in the forest if they want it sooo bad).
I agree. We should let them choose what they want to do. If they stay with the world communism then fine, but if they start fashing around or printing money I think we have the right to bash their heads in. If they want a cappie/fascist society then give em an island somewhere. Let them fight over fruit and kill each other.

[danyboy27]

They need to be very closely monitored (that why some of the best secret services were founded in Socialist nations) and any sbversive activity they try to make are to be severely punished.
no, the best secret services where put in power tu suppress dissent and enfore the control of the state over the worker.

If they dont control the mean of production they are nothing anyway.

[Chambered Word]

As Lenin said, use them for accounting and organizational purposes so we can organize the new socialist society quicker and with more efficiency.

Then give them a choice between letting them fall in line with the workers or having a 7.62x54R round delivered straight to their grey matter.

[danyboy27]

As Lenin said, use them for accounting and organizational purposes so we can organize the new socialist society quicker and with more efficiency.

Then give them a choice between letting them fall in line with the workers or having a 7.62x54R round delivered straight to their grey matter.

yea, beccause we all know slavery and authoritarian rule is soo communist :rolleyes:

[CChocobo]

How about if they don't like what we're doing they can go form their own community elsewhere? Most people wouldn't be so foolish as to go back to work for capitalism, for wages and being slave labor. And let's say some misguided people do? Well we can always have one of our comrades goto say the capitalist community and star spreading the word of our community (whether communist or anarchist) Because people will be miserable (as is the case now) so naturally they will want to be a part of a more humanitarian society. Why would we lock them up? Jails and prisons restrict the rights of any human, look at the prison system today, it's very oppressive. We don't want to use the same methods that our enemies use on us.

[CartCollector]

When feudalism fell in respective areas, where were the feudalist nostalgics, at least a sizable minority of them?

In Britain, there's still a good amount of people called monarchists who support the government giving taxpayer money to the royal family to support their lavish lifestyles, because it's traditional and patriotic. That said, I don't know how many of them would like the monarchy to exercise political power- maybe some of our British comrades would know?

[bailey_187]

And who would protect us from those within our own state who would return us to capitalism?

Cultural Revolution

[Green/Red]

In a Post-revolutionary Socialist society conservatives and libertarians should have the same political rights as socialists and communists in a democratic capitalist society. Human rights are not limited by political beliefs. Dictatorship and tyranny are wrong.

[Raúl Duke]

The working class through their political organs of mass rule (neighborhood/communal assemblies and worker's councils) can keep them in check and can decide what to be done.

Personally, I feel many of them will flee or we will end up deporting them (the idea of a little capitalist place isn't so bad in a way...in the end once it turns into a shit-hole I bet even a revolution will take place there thus ending any illusions about the old society). Without that, than I guess they'll be amongst us...so the issue becomes "keeping them in check."

Recall that in this society, there will be worker's control of the means of production. For reactionaries to set up the needed infrastructure to maintain propaganda capabilities will depend on whether they can get the resources in the first place. Will the paper-making collective support a reactionary printing collective? What about the electricity to run their printing press, will the electric workers be ok with allowing them the ability to run their printing press (or radio/tv transmitter)? There are also many other resources, all made (or extracted in the case of certain industries that deal with natural resources) in workplaces run by workers. Ultimately, they decide whether they want to provide these reactionaries with the resources they need to conduct open reactionary propaganda work. Thus, reactionaries' ability to do these kinds of things might end up being limited.

Concern about more dangerous things, like a coup or something? What would stop a anarchist society from having a militia that would put down reactionary threats with force? Nothing.

On other things that we might not have accounted...what is to stop the people's assemblies of devising methods to keep the reactionary in check? Nothing.

Some might say "but what if the reactionaries control these assemblies?"

Well in that case, I'm not sure how a revolution happened in the first place since a successful revolution would require a substantial amount of people to be behind the ideas of the revolution.

Perhaps, maybe the majority of the communes are ok but one commune is run by reactionaries...well perhaps its no big deal if they want to splinter off but either way the revolutionary masses can decide what they would like to do about it (let them go or use force to stop the reactionaries).

I don't see a pressing need for a statist dictatorship to deal with these hypothetical reactionaries in a post-revolution society.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Under capitalism many working class people do not get any sort of second chance.Get a boss or manager upset at you, run afoul of company policy, one small screw up, one can quickly be reduced to living on the streets. Virtually every person I know in their 20s and 30s, who do not have specific technical backgrounds, has been homeless at some time.

When socialism comes though, we should be nicer.Other than hardened sociopaths, police torturers, military commanders, I feel most people can be reformed. In a socialist society, after a generation or so, the right wing would loose its economic and social basis.There are holdovers from feudalism like the British monarchy, but how many today would die for the divine right of kings?

[MarxSchmarx]

Personally, I feel many of them will flee or we will end up deporting them (the idea of a little capitalist place isn't so bad in a way...in the end once it turns into a shit-hole I bet even a revolution will take place there thus ending any illusions about the old society). Without that, than I guess they'll be amongst us...so the issue becomes "keeping them in check."Better yet, evacuate Cuba, deport the capitalists there, and impose and enforce an embargo. Let's see how well they do with those old cars.

[The Ben G]

I think that its impossible to get rid of them. But, I think that exile is the best thing to do.

[danyboy27]

Cultural Revolution
that didnt worked well last time.

[AK]

I think that its impossible to get rid of them. But, I think that exile is the best thing to do.
To the Gulag with them!

[blackwave]

I think it's important that we ensure we do not think of bourgeois individuals as less worthy of well-being than ourselves. We must suppress capitalism, but this is not, in my estimation, best done through the abuse and murder of the capitalist. This is to dehumanise them in the same way that they dehumanise us, and this is foolish.

[Blake's Baby]

There is no-where to 'deport' these people to. There are no 'islands of capitalism'. During the process of the world revolution, when the working class becomes fully aware of its own potential to re-create the world, there will be ample opportunity for even the most muddle-headed supporter of capitalism to realise that they're wrong. In post-revolutionary society, there'll be little opportunity to persuade people that what they really need to do is submit to oppression again.

But long-term counter-revolutionaries can be allowed I think to propagandise... what are they going to say? 'Hey you lot, instead of building a shiny new socialist future why not work for me and I'll boss you about like in the old days'? Not that likely to find an audience I feel.

[Psy]

There is no-where to 'deport' these people to. There are no 'islands of capitalism'. During the process of the world revolution, when the working class becomes fully aware of its own potential to re-create the world, there will be ample opportunity for even the most muddle-headed supporter of capitalism to realise that they're wrong. In post-revolutionary society, there'll be little opportunity to persuade people that what they really need to do is submit to oppression again.

But long-term counter-revolutionaries can be allowed I think to propagandise... what are they going to say? 'Hey you lot, instead of building a shiny new socialist future why not work for me and I'll boss you about like in the old days'? Not that likely to find an audience I feel.

They can be relocated to the outposts of industrial society for example they would be a very little threat while in the northern islands of Canada especially if the natives are relocated off them and we don't tell capitalists how the natives was able to survive in the frozen waste land to show everyone how utterly useless capitalists are (debunking the myth capitalists are innovative) showing the revolutionary army on worldwide TV shortly later saving the capitalists from famine and mass riots over the fact they can't even figure out how to produce food (I doubt capitalists would be able to learn how to hunt on ice flows or ice fish if we don't give the knowledge to them) to drive the point home that capitalists are too stupid to run society without the help of a skilled proletariat.

In short set the capitalists up to fail outside the industrial world, send in the revolutionary army as soon as the capitalists fail and offer to save their asses if they swear loyalty to the communist world.

[A.R.Amistad]

Right-wing capitalist reactionaries will disappear in the same way that the pro-monarchist right wingers did in the bourgeois revolutions. Over generations, the new social structure will simply make capitalist arguments obsolete. :thumbup1:

[Uppercut]

that didnt worked well last time.

That's funny.

[AK]

Right-wing capitalist reactionaries will disappear in the same way that the pro-monarchist right wingers did in the bourgeois revolutions.
You mean by slaughtering them?

[Chambered Word]

yea, beccause we all know slavery and authoritarian rule is soo communist :rolleyes:

I didn't mention slavery and whether it's 'authoritarian' is really subjective. Why is it too authoritarian for you?

[chegitz guevara]

Right-wing capitalist reactionaries will disappear in the same way that the pro-monarchist right wingers did in the bourgeois revolutions. Over generations, the new social structure will simply make capitalist arguments obsolete. :thumbup1:

Except pro-monarchist forces did not go gently into that dark night.

When the bourgeoisie established itself as the ruling class in Great Britain under Cromwell, the monarchists and feudalism returned with the Restoration. The monarchist forces of Europe joined together to crush the bourgeois revolution in France, and everywhere that revolution exported.

History is not universally linear. When we overthrow the bourgeoisie, they aren't simply going to go, "Oh well, we lost, we gave it a good try." They'll still have their money, they'll still have the loyalty of millions of backwards workers.

Unless we organize to suppress them, they will overthrow the workers. If you have enough guns, you don't need to convince people to return to capitalism. You can just re-impose it. And that organization to suppress the capitalist restorationists? No matter what you call it or don't call it, that will be a state. You could call it the People's Anarchist Communal Volunteer Militia, but it will still function like a state, i.e., it will be gang of armed men and women to enforce the rule of the proletariat and protect its property. And if it functions like a state, it is a state.

[Zanthorus]

Unless we organize to suppress them, they will overthrow the workers. If you have enough guns, you don't need to convince people to return to capitalism. You can just re-impose it. And that organization to suppress the capitalist restorationists? No matter what you call it or don't call it, that will be a state. You could call it the People's Anarchist Communal Volunteer Militia, but it will still function like a state, i.e., it will be gang of armed men and women to enforce the rule of the proletariat and protect its property. And if it functions like a state, it is a state.

That's interesting. Because when discussing the Iroquois Confederacy, Engels noted that "organ of the Confederacy was a Federal Council" which was "elected... and could always be removed" by popular assemblies. There was "no chief executive" but "two supreme war chiefs." Yet this was "the organisation of a society which as yet knows no state."