Kyrgyzstan Gov't Overthrown

[Rusty Shackleford]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/world/asia/08bishkek.html


Large-scale protests appear to have overthrown the government of Kyrgyzstan (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/kyrgyzstan/index.html?inline=nyt-geo), an important American ally in Central Asia, after violence between riot police officers and opposition demonstrators on Thursday killed at least 17 people.
The country’s president, Kurmanbek Bakiyev (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/kurmanbek_s_bakiyev/index.html?inline=nyt-per), fled the capital, Bishkek, on his plane, and the opposition declared that it was forming its own government. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iY7jSEWaqNHm0CVfJW_mPe1KLydQD9EUC85O4


Some 5,000 protesters seized Naryn's regional administration building and installed a new governor, opposition activist Adilet Eshenov said. At least four people were wounded in clashes, including the regional police chief, he said.
Another 10,000 protesters stormed police headquarters Wednesday in Talas, where on Tuesday protesters had held the regional governor hostage in his office.


http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/rt_kyrgyzstan_02_100407_ssh.jpg

http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/ap_kyrgyzstan_03_100407_ssh.jpg

http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/rt_kyrgyzstan_04_100407_ssh.jpg

[chegitz guevara]

Obviously it can't be a revolution because there was no guerrilla war.

[Dimentio]

Its most likely just the previous oligarchs who in their turn were overthrown by the current (now previous) oligarchs in 2005...

[Rusty Shackleford]

Obviously it can't be a revolution because there was no guerrilla war.
-Lol?



Its most likely just the previous oligarchs who in their turn were overthrown by the current (now previous) oligarchs in 2005...
So its just a cycle of bourgeois factions violently overthrowing each other?

[chegitz guevara]

-Lol?

Yes, lol. ;)


So its just a cycle of bourgeois factions violently overthrowing each other?

Most likely. Unless there is an organized workers movement to seize power, power will almost certainly fall into the hands of another segment of the bourgeoisie.

[comrade_cyanide444]

So its just a cycle of bourgeois factions violently overthrowing each other? I don't think so.... Kyrgyzstan is a fairly poor country.It could very well be the proletarian demanding an end to corruption in their government. I'm not sure. They just say "anti-government" and ignore other facts about the protesters. All I know is that many governments in Central Asia are quite corrupt.

It may not be a revolution just yet.... But it could be the overture to a full blown coup. Of course, these protests happen in many countries across the world, often with no avail.... But these guys look.... Armed.


Most likely. Unless there is an organized workers movement to seize power, power will almost certainly fall into the hands of another segment of the bourgeoisie.

Well the story is pretty sketchy on who was the front behind the riot. So it's not very certain. For all we know, it could be some Islamist movement of workers!

[Rusty Shackleford]

i didn't say this was a revolution for the reason that there was not a single mention of workers' organizations or anything.


also, it appears the opposition(currently in power) has a blue party flag.

[chegitz guevara]

i didn't say this was a revolution for the reason that there was not a single mention of workers' organizations or anything.

I know, it was actually a swipe at certain Maoist comrades.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I don't think so.... Kyrgyzstan is a fairly poor country.It could very well be the proletarian demanding an end to corruption in their government. I'm not sure. They just say "anti-government" and ignore other facts about the protesters. All I know is that many governments in Central Asia are quite corrupt.

It may not be a revolution just yet.... But it could be the overture to a full blown coup. Of course, these protests happen in many countries across the world, often with no avail.... But these guys look.... Armed.



Well the story is pretty sketchy on who was the front behind the riot. So it's not very certain. For all we know, it could be some Islamist movement of workers!

apparently, from the articles ive read, a lot of the weapons were taken from police(like in thailand right now) and you can see 2 hands going for that cop's rocket launcher.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I know, it was actually a swipe at certain Maoist comrades.
hahaha i was thinking you were making a guevara joke. either way, both are guerrilla oriented.

[RedScare]

This doesn't look like it has any broader political implications right now, as these protesters don't seem ideologically organized enough to actually change things. I'm guessing another oligarch will take power sooner or later.

[chegitz guevara]

Why does a cop have a rocket launcher?

[Rusty Shackleford]

Why does a cop have a rocket launcher?
because Kyrgyz cops dont fuck around?

heres the caption from the picture's source


Protesters try to take a rocket propelled grenade (RPG) from a riot policeman during clashes in Bishkek April 7, 2010. Dozens of people were killed and hundreds injured in clashes between riot police and opposition protesters in the capital of Kyrgyzstan. (Vladimir Pirogov/Reuters)

its probably only for riot purposes, you know, when protesters show up in armored vehicles.

[Raightning]

The best that could come out of this is that the new government stops sucking at the US teat (or something rather more vulgar for that matter), but even then I'm sceptical.

Still, let's hope this improves conditions for our Kyrgyz comrades.

[comrade_cyanide444]

apparently, from the articles ive read, a lot of the weapons were taken from police(like in thailand right now) and you can see 2 hands going for that cop's rocket launcher.Not sure why, but that just made me lol.

The blue flag could mean several things. It could mean national unity or something. Very little is known about which opposition parties are involved in this. I know that Shamil Murat was a leader of one of them. There was no report of the protesters stealing weapons from police, although those guys holding guns don't look like police....

But the current president of Kyrgyzstan is corrupt, brutal, and oppressive. The only reason we don't hear about him much is that he serves the USA. He's a puppet. Like Saddam Hussein was. Let's hope the coup is successful.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Either way, there's not much of a point to keep talking about this until more information is released on alternative sources, NOT mainstream media. Because if we continue this discussion right now, we may fix our minds to oppose these people when they may be our allies. All I can say right now is congrats to the people of Kyrgyzstan & to now bring a better world for your people.

[danyboy27]

lets wait and see

[Kamerat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L1srqYLnu8
:lol: Look at the cop crawling on all four.
What sounds like white noise on that video is actual the cops firing desperately in the air to disperse the crowd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yQrZkCrRjc
Nice to see the police take a punch from the people their supposed to beat up.
Though its sick to see the police firing real ammunition on the crowd, killing dozen's of people.

[mykittyhasaboner]

More pictures. (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/04/crisis_in_kyrgyzstan.html) Some are quite amazing.

This is a very violent event.

[Nolan]

Ten bucks say new Russian satellite.

[cb9's_unity]

I'd really love to know the nature of the opposition.

Violence is useless if its simply one bourgeois faction against another using the working class as pawns.

[Guerrilla22]

It will definitely be interesting to see how this turns out.

[Dimentio]

Last time there was an event like this, it was the southern clans who took power from the northern clans. Now its probably reverse again. The northern clans are (or were in 2005) more pro-russian than the southern clans.

[Das war einmal]

Anyone got any valuable information about this opposition?

[Across The Street]

incredibly violent

[Antifa94]

This is extraordinary!

[Antifa94]

The opposition is semi-socialist, it is the social democratic party led by Almazbeck Atambeav... I am sure the communist party is protesting too.

[Antifa94]

Oh, the ata-meken socialist party stormed the Presidential Palace.

[Martin Blank]

The new head of Kyrgyzstan is Roza Otunbayeva, who was a former CPSU official and most recently elected to the country's parliament as part of the Social-Democratic Party's electoral slate.

[Antifa94]

Then again, it may also be a regional sectarian conflict.
Hence the president flying to Osh, a southern city that has been calm

[Dimentio]

It could become a civil war if the southern clans rally around the now overthrown president. That would probably meant involvement by proxy by USA, Russia and probably China. Hope the president is giving in, for the sake of the Kyrgyz people.

[Red Commissar]

From what I'm reading the government which was overthrown was itself installed through a so-called "Tulip Revolution". This Roza Otunbayeva was a member of that transition government (Foreign Minister) but didn't have parliamentary power to keep her there.

This just seems to be a routine third-world power struggle to me, imo. The people may be supporting this, but it's more out of their concern over the government's corruption and inefficiency.

[Devrim]

Oh, the ata-meken socialist party stormed the Presidential Palace.

'Ata-Meken' means 'Fatherland'. It is the same 'Ata' as in the Turkish 'Atatürk', 'Father of the Turks'. This is a nationalist split from a conservative political party.

Devrim

[Antifa94]

I am aware of the translation, I saw from wikipedia... Does this mean that they are national socialists, then? ( No relation to the Nazi party other than in name)

[Red Commissar]

I am aware of the translation, I saw from wikipedia... Does this mean that they are national socialists, then? ( No relation to the Nazi party other than in name)

No, I think what he was getting at is that like many of these types of parties in that part of the world, there is a significant populist/ nationalistic vibe in them. Because they say they are "socialist" doesn't mean that is their primary goal.

[Antifa94]

I see.

[Dimentio]

How is the situation down in Osh?

[Antifa94]

Apparently calm.

[DancingLarry]

Probably just steppe politics as usual. One clan or tribe-based group with an imposing sounding party name grabbing control of government offices and revenue streams for as long as they can milk them until another uprising sends them scurrying out on the last Russian airliners out of town with their ill-gotten gains. Little changed from the world Genghis Khan was born into except for the whole Russian airliner part.

[Devrim]

Probably just steppe politics as usual.

Actually Kyrgyzstan isn't on the steppe. It is a state of mountains and valleys. Don't let the facts interfere with your prejudices though.

Devrim

[sotsialist]

Probably just steppe politics as usual. One clan or tribe-based group with an imposing sounding party name grabbing control of government offices and revenue streams for as long as they can milk them until another uprising sends them scurrying out on the last Russian airliners out of town with their ill-gotten gains. Little changed from the world Genghis Khan was born into except for the whole Russian airliner part.

does it feel good being white ?

[zimmerwald1915]

does it feel good being white ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kekb_f5NWg&feature=related

[Wanted Man]

Probably just steppe politics as usual. One clan or tribe-based group with an imposing sounding party name grabbing control of government offices and revenue streams for as long as they can milk them until another uprising sends them scurrying out on the last Russian airliners out of town with their ill-gotten gains. Little changed from the world Genghis Khan was born into except for the whole Russian airliner part.

What are you blathering on about? The offensive shit people can say out of pure ignorance and prejudice is baffling. Self-proclaimed anarchists or communists avoiding any real analysis of the situation, instead opting for some kind of kneejerk reaction, where the elitist disdain for "tribal peoples" is laid on thick. Next time, perhaps you could call them "camel jockeys".

Anyway, I don't know much about the situation, though I'm sure there are insects buzzing around the non-existent Kyrgyz steppe that could formulate a more educated opinion on it than the guy quoted above. A quick internet search shows that apparently the previous president was part of one of those vaunted "Colour Revolutions", which apparently didn't end up too well.

[Dimentio]

While dancing Larry undoubtly has a simplified analysis, the main tenet is correct. It is a struggle between different factions of post-soviet oligarchs about access to the state to dole out lucrative contracts to relatives and so on. The former president did so too, the current one broke his record and the third one will hopefully be a bit wiser.

[Antifa94]

If anyone would like updates on the situation in Bishkek, Type " freekg" into a twitter search engine.

Basically, there is widespread looting going on in the capital now, the IRS building in a district is aflame, The Beta shopping centre was looted, a restaurant and the prosecutor's offices are aflame.

The petit-bourgeoisie have protected some of their shops.

And dancinglarry, that post was just obnoxious.

[khad]

Probably just steppe politics as usual. One clan or tribe-based group with an imposing sounding party name grabbing control of government offices and revenue streams for as long as they can milk them until another uprising sends them scurrying out on the last Russian airliners out of town with their ill-gotten gains. Little changed from the world Genghis Khan was born into except for the whole Russian airliner part.
Enjoy your infraction for racism.

[praxis1966]

does it feel good being white ?

No. But, damn, it feels good to be a gangster.

In all seriousness, though, I expected more from this board. I haven't been around for some time, but back in the day I could always get useful info here when situations like these cropped up. Anyway, *bump* in case somebody has some new information today.

[Rusty Shackleford]

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/kyrgyz_04_07/k33_22916175.jpg

My new Desktop. i know their politics arent full blown socialist(if SD then still thats a bonus), but i absolutely care is that they were able to depose a shitty regime. "El Pueblo Unido Jamas Sera Vencido"

[Martin Blank]

^^^^ Grenade launchers ftw!

When I was watching some of the video reports from Russia Today, I did see a couple red-and-black anarcho-syndicalist flags in the crowds. I'd be interested to know if our AS comrades on here might know who they are ... and possibly get a report from them when Kyrgyzstan's Internet grid is back up.

[Rusty Shackleford]

well, if the new people in power are SD, maybe they'd make the movement further left.

my hypothesis is either Russia or the US will step in, or they will put excessive pressure on the new government which may make it radical.

I wonder how ALBA will respond.

Also;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8607489.stm


Reports of violence in the capital of Kyrgyzstan have prompted the US embassy there to express deep concern, and the Russian government to call for restraint.
These reactions help underline the strategic significance of Kyrgyzstan and the region it occupies.
Kyrgyzstan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1296485.stm) has found itself in the cockpit of what has been dubbed the new "great game" in the region - so-called because the modern big powers jostling for influence there appear reminiscent of the 19th Century contest between the British and Russian empires over access to India.

[praxis1966]

When I was watching some of the video reports from Russia Today, I did see a couple red-and-black anarcho-syndicalist flags in the crowds.

I saw the same thing. I also saw some solid red and some solid black flags, so who knows. I'm hopeful, one way or the other.

[Antifa94]

I saw those flags too! Hurrah!

[bcbm]

pics?

[praxis1966]

pics?

Google search?

[black magick hustla]

^^^^ Grenade launchers ftw!

When I was watching some of the video reports from Russia Today, I did see a couple red-and-black anarcho-syndicalist flags in the crowds. I'd be interested to know if our AS comrades on here might know who they are ... and possibly get a report from them when Kyrgyzstan's Internet grid is back up.

I don't know how it works in that place but in mexico plenty of strikers use the infamous black and red flag and I don't think it has anything to do with AS. I imagine in mexico it is used for historical reasons though - the anarcho-syndicalists and magonistas were a major current in early 20th century labor struggles, and both of them used that flag. I imagine most people in Mexico who use it have no idea about its meaning though.

[mykittyhasaboner]

pics?
Did you see these?

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/04/crisis_in_kyrgyzstan.html

[Dean]

It's worth nothing that the new dominant group calls itself a people's assembly.

[Nolan]

I saw the same thing. I also saw some solid red and some solid black flags, so who knows. I'm hopeful, one way or the other.

I hope so, my birthday is coming up soon and a socialist revolution will make me happy. :)

[bcbm]

i meant pics from the people saying they had seen some of red and black flags. post em up.

[Martin Blank]

It's worth nothing that the new dominant group calls itself a people's assembly.

Do you mean nothing or noting? Makes a big difference, obviously.

[Rusty Shackleford]

It's worth nothing that the new dominant group calls itself a people's assembly.
tomorrow things will evolve into ore solid groups. is the People's Assembly is socialistic then all the power to them.

[The Vegan Marxist]

tomorrow things will evolve into ore solid groups. is the People's Assembly is socialistic then all the power to them.

Asian regimes seem to be losing the confidence of the people & now the people are rising up in major numbers. All we need next is for the Chinese people to rise up again & for the Japanese people to rise up again. THAT would be a sight to see & worth supporting. People of Vietnam would be good too :thumbup1:

[Nolan]

tomorrow things will evolve into ore solid groups. is the People's Assembly is socialistic then all the power to them.

They're not:


Following a day of deadly clashes between police and anti-government protesters, opposition party members announced on state television that they had seized control of the state. A Russian news agency, RIA, reports the opposition as saying that the government had resigned and President Kurmanbek Bakiyev had left the capital. “They came on air and talked about the situation, appealing for calm and appealing for people to protect small businesses and shops from looters,” an Al Jazeera reporter explains. The announcement cames on the heels of deadly clashes in Bishkek, in which at least 40 people were killed and more than 400 others were wounded, according to Kyrgyzstan’s health ministry.

[InuyashaKnight]

Good i hope the "people" win!

[The Vegan Marxist]

They're not:

that doesn't determine whether they have socialistic views or not.

[Rusty Shackleford]

They're not:


what i meant to say was IF the peoples assembly...

simple typos can derail the meaning of a sentence so easily.

[Crux]

As for flags it's worth remembering that the kyrgyz national flag is also red:
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Flag_of_Kyrgyzstan.svg
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Flag_of_Kyrgyzstan.svg

[Leonid Brozhnev]

I don't know what to make of this, mainly because I'm not so hot on Kyrgyzstan politics (lol, surprise), but also because a coup of this sort could go either way. Let just hope the worst of the bloodshed is over and the new government doesn't cock things up for the Kyrgyz people like the last government did.

[Devrim]

Probably just steppe politics as usual. One clan or tribe-based group with an imposing sounding party name grabbing control of government offices and revenue streams for as long as they can milk them until another uprising sends them scurrying out on the last Russian airliners out of town with their ill-gotten gains. Little changed from the world Genghis Khan was born into except for the whole Russian airliner part.Enjoy your infraction for racism.

You know RevLeft would be a much nicer place without jumped up little jobsworths like yourself scurrying around giving people infractions for 'racism' or what not. I tried to think about why you do these sort of things, and this is far from the first time. The only thing that comes to my mind is, based on a pop psychology method, that your life is so empty and sad that exercising some tiny bit of power by giving people 'infractions' on the internet is how you deal with these feelings of inadequacy, in which case I feel genuinely sorry for you.

Get a life. This is not racism at all. It is just an off the cuff comment without too much thought. Several people pulled him up on it. What was the need for you to give an 'infraction'? Maybe people questioning what he wrote will lead to some reflection. Looking back on it though I can see how what I wrote might have made me come across as an arrogant, patronising tosser. You, though, have certainly succeed in making yourself look like a smug little brown-tongue running around after the bosses because he wants the supervisors job.

I realise that the above is quite brutal, but this constant reprimanding of people like they are little children really does get tedious, and I think that if I had addressed it in a normal polite way, you wouldn't even have registered what I was saying.

Oh and by the way his political analysis is almost certainly correct.

Devrim

[khad]

^Just like a white expat to make excuses. Your prattling is tiresome.

[PRC-UTE]

You know RevLeft would be a much nicer place without jumped up little jobsworths like yourself scurrying around giving people infractions for 'racism' or what not. I tried to think about why you do these sort of things, and this is far from the first time. The only thing that comes to my mind is, based on a pop psychology method, that your life is so empty and sad that exercising some tiny bit of power by giving people 'infractions' on the internet is how you deal with these feelings of inadequacy, in which case I feel genuinely sorry for you.

Get a life. This is not racism at all. It is just an off the cuff comment without too much thought. Several people pulled him up on it. What was the need for you to give an 'infraction'? Maybe people questioning what he wrote will lead to some reflection. Looking back on it though I can see how what I wrote might have made me come across as an arrogant, patronising tosser. You, though, have certainly succeed in making yourself look like a smug little brown-tongue running around after the bosses because he wants the supervisors job.

I realise that the above is quite brutal, but this constant reprimanding of people like they are little children really does get tedious, and I think that if I had addressed it in a normal polite way, you wouldn't even have registered what I was saying.

Oh and by the way his political analysis is almost certainly correct.

Devrim

Dr Dev,

this post is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle.

[The Vegan Marxist]

^Just like a white expat to make excuses. Your prattling is tiresome.

What exactly was racist about that? If I hear a black guy talking shit about a white man in a rap song (Dead Prez, Immortal Technique, Lowkey, etc.) then, as a white person that I am, I would support them because they have every right to think that way.

[makesi]

The primordial clan-based analysis put as it has been on this thread is simply a more frank and less nuanced version of bourgeoise polisci's understanding of Central Asia.

[praxis1966]

i meant pics from the people saying they had seen some of red and black flags. post em up.

Nevermind. After viewing a bunch of different videos it's become clear that the red flags I saw were actually the Kyrgyz national flag, so I'm now doubting their political significance. Good shout, Mayakovsky. I did also see the blue flags people have been talking about, and it's worth mentioning that typically a blue flag is either symbolic of liberty, fraternity, or both (hence, the UN flag). Unfortunately, I can't find the footage of the black flags I could've sworn I saw on the local evening news broadcast. At this point I'm starting to think I was mistaken.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Nevermind. After viewing a bunch of different videos it's become clear that the red flags I saw were actually the Kyrgyz national flag, so I'm now doubting their political significance. Good shout, Mayakovsky. I did also see the blue flags people have been talking about, and it's worth mentioning that typically a blue flag is either symbolic of liberty, fraternity, or both (hence, the UN flag). Unfortunately, I can't find the footage of the black flags I could've sworn I saw on the local evening news broadcast. At this point I'm starting to think I was mistaken.


i would have noticed them the first time i saw the videos but i didnt. the Kyrgyz flag is quite nice though. i really like the design
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Flag_of_Kyrgyzstan.svg/800px-Flag_of_Kyrgyzstan.svg.png

[Bilan]

^Just like a white expat to make excuses. Your prattling is tiresome.


This is tantamount to trolling. What do you think you're doing?



Dr Dev,

this post is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle.

Relevance?
Don't post this shit again.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

I did also see the blue flags people have been talking about, and it's worth mentioning that typically a blue flag is either symbolic of liberty, fraternity, or both (hence, the UN flag). Unfortunately, I can't find the footage of the black flags I could've sworn I saw on the local evening news broadcast. At this point I'm starting to think I was mistaken.

The blue flags are the Flag of the Social Democratic Party, there's supporters wearing blue bandanna's as well. The Capitals flag is also blue (with a logo in the middle), but I can't see people flying that... I don't see why they would.

I took a look at their policies on the SDPK site (wall of translated text incoming) -


POLICY AND LAW

Do you think that the constitutional reform in Kyrgyzstan over? If not, then, in what direction to move?

The current regime came to power promising the people of radically reforming the existing system. But setting up an authoritarian state with the dominance of one party. The Constitution was adopted by the political games of power. Constitutional changes must strike the right balance of authority and responsibility in the structures of powers, political pluralism, through the development of decentralization and democracy to create a system of local autonomy. A democracy must realize the goal, how to make a decent society in the political, economic, social and cultural spheres.

What is needed for the rule of law in Kyrgyzstan?

Requires amendment to the Constitution, legislation, raising the legal culture, the development of democracy. The courts - is the foundation of the State, so it is necessary to achieve real independence of the courts. We have to free the court from the political and other influences. We believe the introduction of appropriate civil and criminal liability of state officials for decisions and actions. It must be the citizens' right to compensation in cases of violations of their rights and freedoms, as well as they were injured as a result of illegal actions of the state.

What form of government best suited for Kyrgyzstan (presidential, parliamentary, mixed)?

The crucial issue is a clear constitutional separation of powers of the President, government, parliament and judiciary, they operate under the principles of respect for the rational balance of powers rights and responsibilities, development of a democratic society, which is based on freedom, equality and solidarity. The most suitable for the future of the country is a parliamentary form of government. On the way to her to go through several stages of political development and to create a solid multi-party shift.

What principles should form the parliament (proportional, majoritarian, mixed)?

Proportional principle of formation of parliament, based on party representation of political forces may actually improve a constructive and positive political change in the state system. However, the need to eliminate the violation, distorting the democratic choice of the voters.

How can I increase the independence of the media in Kyrgyzstan?

Need to develop a free, independent media. We must ensure free access to information about the activities of state bodies of the public.

ECONOMY

In what issues the state should intervene in market processes?

PDAP of socially oriented market economy in contrast absolutised free market, the need for some regulation of the economy. The role of the mechanisms of regulation is especially important in the transition out of the economic crisis. In this global economy when our farmers and manufacturers do not compete with each other, as farmers and industrialists from other continents, the state should play a regulatory role in protecting the long-term interests of the national economy.

Which sectors of the economy should be a priority in Kyrgyzstan?

Hydropower, mining, as well as several other strategically important and profitable sectors of the economy should remain in state ownership.

Who should belong to the country's energy sector - to private owners or the state?

Ensure partnership between the state and business in the energy sector. Power should remain public, management should become commercial.

How can we make effective agricultural industry?

On the basis of an intelligent public support.
Need assistance in obtaining loans from among the ¬ people financial institutions to attract private investment. The state should participate in the procurement of major categories of agricultural products and actively promote their implementation in the world markets, to develop a program of insurance risks. To fully support the development of services for agricultural credit for contracting and financing transactions, veterinary and advisory services, the introduction of new technologies, establishing a system of storage. Need to create a system of government incentives for the effective consolidation of farms.

Should I allow the purchase of foreign individuals and legal entities land in Kyrgyzstan?

Only when it is beneficial for the country and people. Foreign citizens are entitled by law to acquire residential premises after obtaining permission of the Ministry of Justice. Inside human settlements, cities, bodies of local administration of land can be granted the right of temporary use. Provision and transfer of ownership of agricultural land to foreign persons are not allowed. Foreign citizens and joint ventures and other entities with the participation of foreign entities prohibited from engaging in transactions for the sale of land.

Does the tax system be changed? If yes, what?

Who earns more should pay more taxes. That means, share with the poor. This should be a balance and not contrary to social justice and at the same time stimulates the creation of new jobs and helps the poor to engage in the labor market. To have income below the official level, taxation, shall not apply. Such a system would ensure economic development and more equitable social order, to reduce the extreme poles between the excess of the rich and the extremely poor.

Must be the economy of Kyrgyzstan is fully open to foreign markets or to be limitations?

Kyrgyzstan is a member of the WTO, a policy of trade liberalization. But the purpose of entry were also stabilize the economic development of the country, improving the competitiveness of domestic producers.
Open economy should involve reasonably available local market for the influx of foreign capital and goods, is not synonymous with lack of control and permissiveness of foreign economic relations of the state. Spontaneous openness not only contributes to economic development, but, conversely, is the unsustainable pattern of exports and imports, raises the threat to economic security.

FOREIGN POLICY

What should be the policy of transboundary water management?

The priority remains the priority needs of its population, water supply in the economy, health care and social welfare.
Based on international experience of water resources, which are formed on their territory, are considered their member ¬ deed the property. Water resources should not be considered in isolation from other related natural resources. Water use is paid to compensate for the cost of the protection of water facilities and resources from pollution and depletion, protecting the environment from the harmful effects of water development and management of public water facilities.

Which states should be priorities for cooperation: Russia, China, USA, EU, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan or other, and why?

In Kyrgyzstan should be friendly relations on a mutually beneficial and equal basis with all other states, especially our neighbors in Central Asia, as well as with Russia, China, USA and Europe. Our primary national interest is to protect the sovereignty and independence. We must not allow ourselves to be drawn into the geopolitical struggle of third powers. Kyrgyzstan will flourish, if we can properly use its strategic location between the major emerging markets of China, India and Russia.

Should Kyrgyzstan and further to leave its territory the U.S. airbase "Hans" and / or the Russian airbase at Kant - if so, why and under what conditions?

The Social Democrats of Kyrgyzstan for ensuring international security and stability in the Central Asian region, for non-participation in aggressive military blocs. In this case the feasibility of placing air bases must be considered from the perspective of the need to reduce the risks of armed conflict and fully respecting the sovereignty of Kyrgyzstan and the observance of its laws.

Membership in any international organizations in Kyrgyzstan the most important and why?

Participation in international organizations is a positive, if the result is a deepening of partnerships with other countries, advancing national interests in regional security, securing international recognition of Kyrgyzstan. It is therefore important cooperation of Kyrgyzstan with such international organizations as UN, OSCE. Cooperation with the EU is pressing for the country's democratic and economic transformation of society. In order for regional integration development is important to participate in the CSTO, EurAsEC and SCO.

Should we strive to Kyrgyzstan in accordance with international democratic standards?

Kyrgyzstan should strive to meet international democratic standards in compliance with the principles of social justice, freedom, equality and fraternity, the protection of human rights. Because it is vital for the development of the state.

Which path of development is necessary for Kyrgyzstan (European, Chinese, Uzbek, Russian or other)?

In our development are strongly influenced by such giants as the USA, China, Russia. But in Kyrgyzstan should be the way of development, and it should not be reduced to the course to democracy. Unlike the current government, focusing upon the Uzbek model, PDAP for a democratic state. Kyrgyzstan will be able to implement their own development, if there is a strong, effective state, built on sound principles of constitutionality, which can provide economic growth and to effectively protect people living in it from the negative impact the current global security threats.
Ethnic Relations and Culture

Do you think that the current language policy in the country right? If not, what needs to change?

Our country was for centuries the land of different ethnicities, religions and cultures. We are all united by respect for the independence of Kyrgyzstan, the love of our beautiful nature and patriotic feelings. PDAP in favor of the allocation of state grants for translation of world classics into the Kyrgyz language. We must make the Kyrgyz language fashionable and necessary for communication. Young people, regardless of ethnic origin, must be fluent in Kyrgyz language. Everyone must also know at least English and Russian language.

What should be a cultural policy?

Cultural policy should proceed from the fundamental importance of culture in the state and the society as a holistic system of spiritual values, affects all spheres of public life, when they take on the task of preserving the moral guidance of the people.
Necessary government funding to ensure access for all segments of the population of the works of national and world culture, preservation of historical and cultural heritage of the people, to maintain a high prestige cul ¬ tours Kyrgyzstan abroad. Required to support the development of minority culture.

Do Kyrgyzstan national ideology? If yes, what?

PDAP believes that the issues of ideology - is the subject of the crystallization of ideas in the competition of political parties and discussions in the society.
How to build the relationship between religion and state?

At present, religious institutions are beginning to play an important role in society, becoming one of the political levers. PDAP for a secular state, religion should be completely separated from the state. But this distancing the state from religious affairs should not lead to a weakening of literacy and intellectual level of the official clergy. Otherwise, limiting their ability to withstand the various radical trends, imported from outside.

What do you think the role of Islam in Kyrgyzstan?

In the fall of public morality, people are trying to Islam to gain a kind of foothold.
The process of Islamization can not be started up to chance, which can lead to extreme radicalization of society. In case of conflict the state can not properly solve the problem of extremist organizations, oppose the threat of radical and extremist organizations. Need to address issues critical to the state and the public through the activities of state institutions, political parties and public organizations. It also requires prevention of religious extremism through the inculcation of a correct understanding of Islam.

Traditional values are more incentive or disincentive to the development of the country?

Traditional values and Kyrgyz all epics that make up the people of Kyrgyzstan, such as: honesty, fairness, respect for elders and care for the younger, hard work, compassion, kindness, compassion, high family's role in society, respect for women are the only incentive.

SOCIAL POLICY

What should be the pension system of the country?

Raise pension to the level of the minimum consumer budget. Back to the international mechanisms of pension insurance, in particular, to a fully funded system. Create and develop a system of private pension funds. Gradually abolish the existing system of pension benefits from the transition to compensate poor living conditions and labor at the expense of employers and of targeted social protection. Need to soften the impact of growth in food prices on vulnerable populations. From time to index pensions.

What major problems exist in the higher education system and how to solve them?

Low quality of education, lack of competitiveness and the uselessness, corruption, weak faculty, weak material and technical base of universities and schools, the poor financial and social welfare educators.
In an age of globalization and high technology graduates in the bulk do not have to compete in the global market. We are turning into a nation of primitive bargaining ¬ necks, janitors and cleaners. The state should give priority to the computerization of all schools and universities. Every child must state as a start in life to guarantee access to world-class education.
Education should awaken creativity, flexibility to respond to the changing world, focus on teaching principles rather than facts.

What major problems exist in the health care system and how to solve them?

We stand for quality public health services. Private medicine is good, if the rich want extra comfort. But the main burden of public health should remain with the state and be its primary function. We will not silently watch as people lose health and die because of lack of money. Access to free high-quality medicine should be ensured, especially for children, women, the poor and pensioners. In the capital and the periphery should be equally accessible and quality services.

How to solve the problem of internal and external migration?

Our country should not be a source of unskilled labor migrants. It should develop a state program for the development of labor potential, sectoral and regional employment programs. To create conditions for the return of citizens of Kyrgyzstan to the homeland by providing jobs. Full support of current migrants abroad through the Foreign Ministry, Finance Ministry, law enforcement agencies. In each area, a large industrial enterprise as to the development of the region and the opening of new jobs.

Environmental policy in Iraq - as the state implements it, and what it should be?

Overexploitation of natural resources and the environment occurs when the address current economic interests, ignoring the fact, what the cost to society. Ecological requirements must be above the power of economic structures. In the conduct of environmental policy must take into account the principle of equitable distribution, in this case, the distribution between the generations. The authorities do not have the right for their own well-being mindlessly deplete natural resources of the country and the physical environment, which is the foundation of life of future generations.

To be honest, there's nothing really ground breaking in there from what I've read... :bored:

[Chambered Word]

Unfortunately Captain Cuba may be correct: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Kyrgyzstan_riots


Alleged Russian role

The Eurasian Daily Monitor reported on April 1 that, for two weeks, the Kremlin has used the Russian mass media to spread disparaging information about the Kyrgyzstan administration. Russia controls much of the media in Kyrgyzstan. The sudden campaign coincided with Kyrgyzstan's hesitation to host a new Russian military base.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Kyrgyzstan_riots#cite_note-attackbakiyev-12) On April 1 Russia also imposed duties on energy exports to Kyrgyzstan. It influenced fuel and transport prices immediately, and reportedly led to a massive protest in Talas on April 6.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Kyrgyzstan_riots#cite_note-13)


The increases in petrol prices slapped onto Kyrgyzstan certainly sound fishy to me: http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/eav040610a.shtml


Gasoline and diesel prices are now set to rise sharply in Kyrgyzstan after Moscow suddenly slapped new customs duties on refined petroleum products being exported to the Central Asian nation. Prices for refined products could rise as much as 30 percent, stoking fears that inflation might further destabilize the already troubled Kyrgyz economy.
On April 1, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin terminated the preferred customs duties that Kyrgyzstan, as a member of the Eurasian Economic Community (the EurAsEC), had been receiving on Moscow’s gasoline and diesel exports. The apparent justification for the move is the fact that the EurAsEC is being eclipsed by a new Customs Union, comprising Russia, Kazakhstan and Belarus. The Customs Union is set to become fully functional this coming July.
It remains unclear if similar energy-export duties will be applied to Russian petrol destined for Tajikistan, which, like Kyrgyzstan, is a member of the EurAsEC, but is not in the Customs Union.
Many political experts in Bishkek believe Moscow is punishing Bakiyev for his administration’s failure to evict American forces from the Manas air base, outside of Bishkek. In what most observers saw as a quid pro quo, Moscow promised a $2.15 billion aid package in February 2009 on the same day Kyrgyz President Kurmanbek Bakiyev pledged to close the base. The Americans, however, remain at Manas.


The Kyrgyz Ministry of Economic Regulations contends that Moscow did not officially inform Bishkek about the introduction of the duties, AKIpress reported on April 5. Ministry officials in Bishkek tacitly complained about Moscow’s move, asserting that a bilateral free trade agreement signed in 1992 entitled Bishkek to keep receiving fuel products from Russia at preferential rates.

This short article on the Manas air base might also be worth reading: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8607489.stm

It sounds to me like Russia is attempting to expand its influence, but I'm interested to know what action the Communist Party is taking in response to the violent uprisings.

[Rusty Shackleford]

The main problem with Kyrgyzstan is that it's a nation of goat-fuckers.
fuck off.

EDIT: sorry for the one liner but what the fuck.

anyways... looks like the Kyrgyz Social Democrats wont amount to much in the way of socialism. not that i was expecting that. what gets me about this is just the amazing power of the masses.

[Dimentio]

The question is if the social democrats even can play the role as a unifying force. By now, it appears evident that this revolution was Russian-engineered.

[Omi]

This event is in no way a socialist revolution, and I am sorry to say that the people who where pessimistic in the beginning of the thread are right.

In 2001 the US constructed a military airport to support the war in Afghanistan. In 2005 Bakijev took power in what is called the 'tulip revolution'. The new president was rather US sympathetic and Russia was in fear of losing grip in the region to the US.
But the recent economic crises offered Russia the chance to regain control. In a visit to the Kremlin last year Bakijev told the Russian officials he would dismantle the airbase. In return he would recieve 2 billion dollars. But he never dismanteled the base, and after recieving additional money from the US he cancelled the plan, and the militairy airbase is present to this day. This destroyed the relationship between Kyrgyzstan and Russia. Russia cancelled the credit to Kyrgyzstan and per 1 april cancelled the beneficial oil prices to Kyrgyzstan. This made the prices for petrol and energy rise enourmously.
This is believed to have been one of the causes for mass demonstrations called off by the opposition party.

March saw the formation of the popular assembly(called for by Bakijev). He argued that Kyrgyzstan was not fit for a democracy to the western model, and instead needed it's own form of democracy. But don't get your hopes up: He doesn't mean direct democracy or workers control. He is talking about a patriarchal ageist body of control over the state, where the ''wise elderly men'' will have the decision making power. This effectively means that his own cronies will have full control over the bodies of the state, because any opposition to the ruling elite is deemed ''unwise''.

So don't get your hopes up people, this is nothing more than a feud between imperialist powers and it's perticulairly said to see many workers risking their lives for what they believe will finally bring them freedom, but instead the result will be the same oligarchical powerstructure, with the only diffrence being their surplus will now be exported to russia instead of the US.

[Revy]

Maybe this will heat up tensions between the US and Russia. We all remember South Ossetia in 2008...and the media in the US viciously misrepresented the facts. It's obvious that while the capitalist class works together to suppress workers, there is often conflict and war between them, especially between the powerful countries. I think it would be foolish to assume that the period of world wars is behind us.

Since this involves US interests, then I think the US will try to retaliate against regime change somehow. Russia has its own imperialist ambitions that we shouldn't sugar-coat, though.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

These events are highly interesting.
Indeed the protest may not be entirely socialist or even properly politically orientated, but the rebels are protesting mainly against raised prices for basic necessities (food, water, fuel, electricity), poverty and unemployment.

What's better to start a Revolution with than that?

If the Communists play it right, they can easily take the lead and start the Revolution. These events have proven the power of the People to overthrow tyranny and install a new regime.

[Dimentio]

These events are highly interesting.
Indeed the protest may not be entirely socialist or even properly politically orientated, but the rebels are protesting mainly against raised prices for basic necessities (food, water, fuel, electricity), poverty and unemployment.

What's better to start a Revolution with than that?

If the Communists play it right, they can easily take the lead and start the Revolution. These events have proven the power of the People to overthrow tyranny and install a new regime.

Kyrgyzstan has the same problem as Nepal. Even if a genuine socialist revolution would occur, the country is too small and isolated to be a staging-point for revolutions in neighbouring countries, and almost too small and isolated to even survive for long without a strong "adoptive" power.

[AK]

So Russia's adopting US tactics now? Overthrowing governments they don't like?

Different perpetrator. Same shit.

[Ravachol]

Whilst I'm a little in the dark on the situation, I think it's more complex than just 'Steppe politics', a 'true revolution' or 'Russian-Chinese-American Geopolitics'.

The situation for the average working class person in Kyrgyzstan is pretty abysmall and I believe it is material conditions, as always, that caused this outburst to happen. Whilst obviously not fully proletarian in nature (as I suspect a fair deal of small and medium businessmen might be involved in the opposition as well) I do believe that these outbreaks are fuelled in part by working class refusal of their conditions.

Now, there obviously are more factors to this conflict. Clan-based identity politics probably play a role as do Russian and Chinese geopolitical interests in the region (especially since Kyrgyzstan was/is a US ally in The New Great Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Great_Game)). Control of regions like the Torugart Pass are of infrastructural importance as is the geographic location of Kyrgyzstan itself in the central asian region.

My guess is this revolt is a mix of all three, Clan-based identity politics, genuine proletarian sentiments and Imperialist geopolitics.

[punisa]

If the Communists play it right, they can easily take the lead and start the Revolution. These events have proven the power of the People to overthrow tyranny and install a new regime.

Unfortunately this will be very unlikely if Kyrgyztan is any similar with ex soviet/socialist countries in the east europe/central asia.
People still dislike communists very much.

I would sincerely like if that is not the case with Kyrgyztan.

[#FF0000]

So Russia's adopting US tactics now? Overthrowing governments they don't like?

Different perpetrator. Same shit.

That's been the imperialist thing for hundreds of years now, boyo. The U.S. isn't the world's only imperialist. :lol:

[Devrim]

My guess is this revolt is a mix of all three, Clan-based identity politics, genuine proletarian sentiments and Imperialist geopolitics.

But within the mix, workers discontent ends up being used, not in their own interest but in those of different bourgeois factions.

Devrim

[khad]

So Russia's adopting US tactics now? Overthrowing governments they don't like?

Different perpetrator. Same shit.
Most Kyrgyz would consider themselves naturally allied with Russia in terms of economics, culture, and shared history. This uprising against the US-installed puppet regime of the Tulip Revolution is simply a return to long historical currents.

Next up will be Sakaashvili's head.

[Ravachol]

But within the mix, workers discontent ends up being used, not in their own interest but in those of different bourgeois factions.

Devrim

Yes I fear that too, but that'd be the result of bourgeois perversion of proletarian discontent and low class conciousness, not a lack of genuine refusal from the side of the working class. This is also why i'm no spontaneist and believe in a good degree of revolutionary organisation and agitation from a decent pro-revolutionary milieu. That being said, such refusals of the consequences of class society often express the most genuine proletarian sentiments.

[Dimentio]

Unfortunately this will be very unlikely if Kyrgyztan is any similar with ex soviet/socialist countries in the east europe/central asia.
People still dislike communists very much.

I would sincerely like if that is not the case with Kyrgyztan.

That is really not so simplistic. People in the ex-soviet sphere are mostly apathetic and hold the opinion that politicians in general are crooks. They automatically presume that everyone vying for public power has the lowest possible real interest in mind, and are thus at large not participants in society but rather observers. When a government in that region is overthrown, its most often directly by a political faction + a minority of the people.

In some areas, the Soviet Union is missed (Russia and Armenia for example), while in others it was viewed as tyrannical foreign (Russian) regime (Balticum for example). When hearing the word communism, the people there are most likely thinking about Russian imperialism, while many - especially in the poorer Caucasian and Central Asian republics - are sincerely missing the "good old times" when they had basic social safety nets.

Soviet nostalgia is not based on progressive ideologies, but rather on ethno-chauvinism (in the case of Russia) and a longing for a lost "golden age" (in the case of the poorer parts of the former Union).

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

Kyrgyzstan has the same problem as Nepal. Even if a genuine socialist revolution would occur, the country is too small and isolated to be a staging-point for revolutions in neighbouring countries, and almost too small and isolated to even survive for long without a strong "adoptive" power.
Not necessarily. As long as no other power invades the nation or starts arming the counterrevolution, Kyrgyzstan should be able to stand its ground.

[Chambered Word]

Not necessarily. As long as no other power invades the nation or starts arming the counterrevolution, Kyrgyzstan should be able to stand its ground.

That's the problem, even if you believe socialism in one country can work.

[bailey_187]

Unfortunately this will be very unlikely if Kyrgyztan is any similar with ex soviet/socialist countries in the east europe/central asia.
People still dislike communists very much.

I would sincerely like if that is not the case with Kyrgyztan.

According to Wikipedia the Party of Communists of Kyrgyztan was "largest single party in the Legislative Assembly of Kyrgyzstan (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Legislative_Assembly_of_Kyrgyzstan) between 2001 and 2005 with 15 of the 60 seats" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_Communists_of_Kyrgyzstan)

Although the party seems to be Communist in name only.

[praxis1966]

The blue flags are the Flag of the Social Democratic Party, there's supporters wearing blue bandanna's as well. The Capitals flag is also blue (with a logo in the middle), but I can't see people flying that... I don't see why they would.

I can say with certainty there was no logo on the blue flags, indicating that your initial suspicion is probably the correct one. In re the red flags, that's why I showed up here after a protracted, self-imposed moratorium on posting here. The long and the short of it is I know exactly Jack and shit about the internal politics of Kyrgyzstan, and Jack's left town.


It sounds to me like Russia is attempting to expand its influence, but I'm interested to know what action the Communist Party is taking in response to the violent uprisings.What I can glean from the news reports is not so much that Russia was attempting to expand it's influence in Kyrgyzstan; that they already possessed in spades. I think it was a reaction to the expansion of American interests in the country, specifically the increased use of the Manas Air Base. But I think you're right when you say Russia's punishing Bakiyev for not taking a hard line with the Americans. Though most of the mainstream U$ news outlets aren't exactly connecting the dots between the American presence, Russia's reaction by increasing petrol tariffs, and the resultant unrest over inaccessibly priced petrol, they [those news outlets] are saying that the primary bone of contention with the opposition is said petrol prices. It's pretty easy to do the math after that. It looks like this thing is all tied up in global geopolitics that the Kyrgyz people probably wanted nothing to do with but are nevertheless caught in the middle of.


...Although the party seems to be Communist in name only.^Pretty much my hunch as well. I had the sneaking suspicion that, similar to the Sandanistas in Nicaragua, the modern incarnation of the Kyrgyz CP had probably devolved to the point that politically it wasn't much different the the US Dem Party.

[Crux]

Revolutionary uprising overthrows government in one day (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/4214)

[comrade_cyanide444]

I don't think Russia is directly involved yet. If anything, they are merely supportive of the uprising because they dislike Bakiyev. If Russia wanted to defend Kyrgyzstan, I'm sure they would have sent peacekeepers or something. The Kyrgyz people like the Russians a lot more than Americans anyways. In 2008 there was a severe energy crisis in Central Asia. Kyrgyzstan had hydroelectric power to help this, but high fuel and food prices didn't help. Kyrgyzstan has a huge population that is living in poverty. A combination of high energy prices, distaste for President Bakiyev, and the need to become closer to Central Asian nations may have contributed to recent unrest. So there are these opposition parties. They are slightly pissed off that they didn't get much control of the state after Bakiyev's Tulip Revolution. The workers are saying that they want Bakiyev out; they think he is corrupt and doesn't have the Kyrgyz working class in mind. The opposition groups tell these workers who are clearly quite unhappy with the situation to rally with them. Obviously a large group of angry workers can invoke violence, but when one opposition leader gets arrested (the leader of Ata Meken), the crowd reaches a point of violence.

What does Russia have to gain from this? I doubt that this could have been Russian backed from the beginning. The Kyrgyz opposition has criticized Bakiyev's friendliness towards NATO and USA. They see him as a crazy puppet in an Imperialistic game (The Great Game all over again). These Kyrgyz people are already in bad conditions, and have seen that alliance with the West still hasn't brought them more fuel, food, and wealth to the point where their needs are met. Logistically, it's hard for Russian Intelligence to be directly behind this. What, did someone send a message to a few opposition leaders saying "Go rally in the capital today, and tell everyone to loot buildings and burn down government offices".

The red flags are most likely Kyrgyz flags. In fact, many of the opposition leaders want to be closer to Central Asian nations. They are often very Nationalist. If the Kyrgyz workers truly want freedom, instead of rallying for these pissed off Nationalist/Social Democratic parties, they should look for parties willing to impose more Socialist causes. Otherwise it will simply be a cycle of civil wars for the years to come.

[Omegared]

Why does a cop have a rocket launcher?

lol! excellent question!!

[praxis1966]

Thanks for the link, Mayakovsky. That's probably the only bit of really useful reporting on this topic so far. I do have my issues with some of it's content, however. Specifically, the following:


Commenting on the events at that time, the CWI said: “whilst the ‘power of the street’ is enough to topple governments, in itself it is not enough to establish an alternative government that will be capable of ending the corruption and poverty which grips this region..."Translation: The people can't be trusted to govern themselves, so what we need is an opportunistic vanguard to step in do everything for them, resulting in an elitist class just as intransigent to popular will than the last lot. After all, who better to know what's good for the lumpen proletariat than the college educated bourgeoisie?

Although, it looks from the same article like the people were doing a pretty damned good job of taking decisions themselves. From the same article:


The opposition however decided to organize an alternative Kurultaya. During their meetings, they presented the government with an ultimatum: “The price increases should be annulled, Kyrghyzantel and the electricity company should be taken back into state ownership and the President’s relatives should be removed from their positions”. The release of all political prisoners was demanded. In addition to this we would add the need for a struggle for all democratic rights including: the right to form free independent trades union, the right to free assembly, a democratically controlled free press and the convening of a genuinely representative assembly of all the people including workers, young people, students, small traders and the rural masses.Lastly, from comrade_cyanide444:


What does Russia have to gain from this? I doubt that this could have been Russian backed from the beginning.I didn't mean to suggest that the uprising was Russian sponsored, per se. However, when the Russian government hiked up petrol tariffs, they did so fully intending for this to happen as a way of punishing Bakiyev. They knew full well it could further destabilize an already tenuous situation, and that's exactly what happened. Not that I support U$ interests in Kyrgyzstan or Bakiyev, quite the contrary. What I was suggesting was that this movement is merely a pawn in Russia's regional ambitions, albeit indirectly. To put it another way, this is the Russian version of the Monroe Doctrine.

Incidentally, this argument is really moot anyhow, as the leadership currently claiming control over the government was actually part of the old government. The whole mess of them were really probably just aggrieved at the fact that they felt they weren't getting a large enough slice of the Tulip Revolution cake. Now that I've got a little bit more information (thanks again to Mayakovsky) I can pretty much guarantee that this latest episode of unrest won't result in real change for Kyrgyzstan's poor.

[Blackscare]

Just like a white expat to make excuses

Useless, lazy ad-hom. Didn't take me more than a half-hour back on this site to be reminded of why I left.

[Red Commissar]

Not sure if this is worth anything, but the Washington Post is saying the US feels it wasn't a Russian-backed coup

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/08/AR2010040803337.html

Though it is obvious they're jumpy over what the opposition will do with the Manas transit center.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I believe that this was a true people's revolution & they were in such high numbers & so organized that they were able to overthrow the government in just a day. Though, I feel that the people there need to start calming down now & actually get working on forming up this "People's Government" & make sure the Russians don't take this over or any other super power like the U.S.

[sotsialist]

I believe that this was a true people's revolution & they were in such high numbers & so organized that they were able to overthrow the government in just a day. Though, I feel that the people there need to start calming down now & actually get working on forming up this "People's Government" & make sure the Russians don't take this over or any other super power like the U.S.

cute,but read this:english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2010/04/201048102529639548.html

there is no peoples govt my friend.

by the way,can someone please ban "small geezer" :revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1715159&postcount=79 why is that racist not punished?

[Robocommie]

It seems like this all happened so quickly, it might be too soon to determine whether this truly was a people's revolution or if it represents two groups of elites fighting, or whether this is a Russian backed coup. Off hand it does look like a popular revolt, but I think some time will need to pass for all the details to come out before we can say for sure.

It is a very interesting development, in any case. It also has implications for US operations in Afghanistan, because of that airbase.

[Crux]

Translation: The people can't be trusted to govern themselves, so what we need is an opportunistic vanguard to step in do everything for them, resulting in an elitist class just as intransigent to popular will than the last lot. After all, who better to know what's good for the lumpen proletariat than the college educated bourgeoisie?

I am not sure how you read that into the article but it's obviously your own bias talking, in fact the article suggested the absolute opposite of a new elite taking power, i e that the working class form their own revolutionary leadership, this is what is commonly known as the vanguard. Are you sure you read all the way through?

The CWI in Kazakhstan and Russia comments (7 April 2010):

These events are a result of the current economic crisis and the despair the population feel at the results of the previous 2005 Tulip Revolution. According to press reports the new government has now announced the withdrawal of the price increases in electricity and heating charges as well as the re-nationalisation of the gold mining industry and strategic industries. In these conditions, mass protests are the best way of standing up for your rights. But without a socialist programme and organization, capable of defending these rights over the long term, such revolutionary events can result in just another “Colored Revolution”, in which the revolutionary energy of the masses is exploited by another section of the capitalist class in their own interests. Already the new government, using the same language as used in 2005, say the priority is to ‘restore order’. The same clique will come to power only without Bakiyev. They will use the events of the last two days to demonstrate the people’s anger and to let off steam.
The replacement of one president by another will change nothing. The system has to be changed. Capitalism has to be replaced by a democratically organized planned economy – only in that way can the economic crisis be overcome.
Therefore we call for the creation of a mass left wing party, with a clear programme and strategy against repression and for the freedom of speech and organization, against price rises and unemployment, for a massive programme of investment in housing and job creation, for the banking sector, goldmines and key sectors of the economy to be nationalized, under the democratic control and management of the working class. For this, it is necessary to organize a workers’ and poor people’s ‘kurultaya’ and the formation of a workers’ government, in which all layers of the working class are represented.

[praxis1966]

I am not sure how you read that into the article but it's obviously your own bias talking, in fact the article suggested the absolute opposite of a new elite taking power, i e that the working class form their own revolutionary leadership, this is what is commonly known as the vanguard. Are you sure you read all the way through?

Well, I quoted the passage from the article that led me to believe the article was suggesting that's what should happen. And yes, it is my own biased interpretation that led to how I read the passage. Then again, for anyone to pretend impartiality on anything is a fool's errand.

Anyhow, though the article's suggesting that the people are forming their own leadership, that doesn't exactly jive with the reality on the ground. Specifically, Rosa Otunbayeva, a member of the 'old guard,' is claiming control of the government. Now, if she's unresponsive to the demands of the people she may eventually find herself in the same predicament Bakiyev is in. In the final analysis, though, two things are clear to me. The first is that this whole thing is still too new to know how it's going to play out. The second is that moneyed interests (like Otunbayev) are already trying to co-opt it.

[Crux]

Well, I quoted the passage from the article that led me to believe the article was suggesting that's what should happen. And yes, it is my own biased interpretation that led to how I read the passage. Then again, for anyone to pretend impartiality on anything is a fool's errand.

Anyhow, though the article's suggesting that the people are forming their own leadership, that doesn't exactly jive with the reality on the ground. Specifically, Rosa Otunbayeva, a member of the 'old guard,' is claiming control of the government. Now, if she's unresponsive to the demands of the people she may eventually find herself in the same predicament Bakiyev is in. In the final analysis, though, two things are clear to me. The first is that this whole thing is still too new to know how it's going to play out. The second is that moneyed interests (like Otunbayev) are already trying to co-opt it.
No what the article is suggesting is that a huge potential is there and that they should form their own leadership. Quite a difference.

[The Grey Blur]

Two great articles I suggest people read to give some background on the situation:

http://www.marxist.com/revolution-in-kyrgysztan.htm

http://www.marxist.com/kyrgyzstan-mass-revolt-against-rising-prices-president-flees.htm

so essentially it is an uprising of the masses in kyrgysztan, ie the working and poor, against disgraceful cuts being forced upon the country by groups like the IMF. a crude analogy might be to call this asia's greece...there isn't any real organised intervention in the revolt yet but there have been basic soviets created...though as was noted earlier in this thread without communist leadership such revolts will dissipate and end up with another set of bourgeois in charge. these events are incredible and obviously have great impact considering the situation in afghanistan, pakistan, iran, etc in recent times.

Edit: Also Mayakovsky's link gives a very useful insight too.

[praxis1966]

No what the article is suggesting is that a huge potential is there and that they should form their own leadership. Quite a difference.

Perhaps you're right, but like I said, it's yet to be seen whether that will actually happen. Fact is, the forces moving to yolk the momentum of this thing are just as I described, 'old guard.' I hope that part of it changes, but at this point I'm skeptical. Let's just call my attitude at this point one of measured optimism.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

That's the problem, even if you believe socialism in one country can work.
True, but I doubt that any major nation will militarily intervene, since for Kyrgyzstan there is no possible cover to justify an invasion.

[praxis1966]

True, but I doubt that any major nation will militarily intervene, since for Kyrgyzstan there is no possible cover to justify an invasion.

Spot on. As long as they take a page out of Fidel and Che's playbook and leave the U$ military installation alone, I can't see any major power getting involved.

[punisa]

check out the title:
"Picturesque, troubled Kyrgyzstan vital for U.S. interests "

first paragraph:
Before this week, most Americans had likely never heard of Kyrgyzstan and even fewer could place it on a map. But the central Asian nation, which is about the size of South Dakota, is important to U.S. foreign policy for one simple reason: a vital military base that about 50,000 troops pass through every month on their way in and out of Afghanistan.

full article:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/04/08/kyrgyzstan.background/index.html?hpt=C1

[Dimentio]

Seems like the USA is still recognising the overthrown government, which is down in Osh, clinging to its southern supporter base. Hope this doesn't spin out of control now.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Seems like the USA is still recognising the overthrown government, which is down in Osh, clinging to its southern supporter base. Hope this doesn't spin out of control now.


if that is the case, Kyrgyzstan was just divided into two different and competing territories. ill have to look into this more. this is somewhat worrying.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think both the US and Russia probably want to close ranks and restore order before making moves to back their respective oligarchs and political factions.

Both the US and Russia have ties to the country (and military bases), but at this point I don't think either wants to see people openly battling cops, taking their RPGs, and burning the government buildings. The US and Russia like to see nice little coups where one faction takes over for the old regime and the population stays passive. They both have factions they support and have influence with and undoubtedly hope that a side favorable to them comes out on top, but a popular uprising, no matter how mixed-politically, is not good for either of them considering how destabilized the region is.

Considering that all the countries in Eastern Europe and Central Asia are autocratic regimes with ties and military links to either the US or Russia (or both), the example of people really "throwing the bums out" is like throwing matches on a powder-keg.

[AK]

check out the title:
"Picturesque, troubled Kyrgyzstan vital for U.S. interests "

first paragraph:
Before this week, most Americans had likely never heard of Kyrgyzstan and even fewer could place it on a map. But the central Asian nation, which is about the size of South Dakota, is important to U.S. foreign policy for one simple reason: a vital military base that about 50,000 troops pass through every month on their way in and out of Afghanistan.

full article:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/04/08/kyrgyzstan.background/index.html?hpt=C1
Oh, those poor soldiers. You gotta feel for the imperialists, ya know?

[Dimentio]

I think both the US and Russia probably want to close ranks and restore order before making moves to back their respective oligarchs and political factions.

Both the US and Russia have ties to the country (and military bases), but at this point I don't think either wants to see people openly battling cops, taking their RPGs, and burning the government buildings. The US and Russia like to see nice little coups where one faction takes over for the old regime and the population stays passive. They both have factions they support and have influence with and undoubtedly hope that a side favorable to them comes out on top, but a popular uprising, no matter how mixed-politically, is not good for either of them considering how destabilized the region is.

Considering that all the countries in Eastern Europe and Central Asia are autocratic regimes with ties and military links to either the US or Russia (or both), the example of people really "throwing the bums out" is like throwing matches on a powder-keg.

I think it depends a lot on what Bakiyev would do. But it could very well be so that the southern clans feel alienated by the northerners and would vy to retake power. As of now, it seems like the country is indeed temporarily divided.

[Buffalo Souljah]

17 [sic] April 21.20
The situation is out of control. The Bakiyev regime is still trying to hold on to power by force. But now it is rumored that Bakiyev’s family is being evacuated and is now under the protection of the Americans at the Manus airbase [the US base at Bishkek’s airport is used by US for intervention in Afghanistan]. According to human rights groups, there are at least 56 dead in the city’s hospitals. But despite the shootings, the demonstrators are not giving up. On the contrary, people are trying to arm themselves – taking shields and truncheons from the police, some have weapons from the riot police. At the current time, the White House is under siege, the buildings of the Prosecutor, Security Police, and two pro-government TV stations have been occupied. Troops and armoured vehicles are out on the streets in the big cities. It’s clear the government intend to drown the uprising in blood. But in many areas, the police and troops have given up, gone over to the side of the demonstrators, taken off their uniforms, and joined the protests. Russian TV is carrying reports about the protesters being criminals and about pogroms. But the protesters are complaining that huge chunks of state property have been taken over by the President and his family. This revolution has many elements of social protest – the mass of protesters are demanding nationalization and for the country to change its economic course. Even if the bloody dictator Bakiyev attacks again, it is clear his regime does not have long left. And if the revolution is victorious, it will open the perspective of spreading to neighbouring countries.

8 April 01.47
It is clear from all the information we are receiving that the uprising has been victorious. The masses tonight stormed the headquarters of the security police and nearby prison. The leaders of the opposition arrested earlier were released. The White House has fallen and a “Government of People’s Confidence” has been formed. Former Parliament speaker, Omurbek Tekebaev, declared on TV that power is now fully in the hands of the people. A Central executive committee of 13 people has been formed lead by the “Chief Social Democrat” Rosa Otumbaeva.
Declaring that they will take full responsibility on themselves for the running of the country, Tekebaev declared that “people’s defense squads” will be formed to restore order on the streets. The latest information is that in some areas, looting of Chinese supermarkets and the homes and property of the Bakiyev family is taking place and that the defense squads are attempting to control the situation. The regimes in Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan have sent extra troops to close their borders. Presumably the Chinese regime will do the same.

Already the new government, using the same language as used in 2005, say the priority is to ‘restore order’. The same clique will come to power only without Bakiyev. They will use the events of the last two days to demonstrate the people’s anger and to let off steam. The replacement of one president by another will change nothing. The system has to be changed. Capitalism has to be replaced by a democratically organized planned economy – only in that way can the economic crisis be overcome.
Therefore we call for the creation of a mass left wing party, with a clear programme and strategy against repression and for the freedom of speech and organization, against price rises and unemployment, for a massive programme of investment in housing and job creation, for the banking sector, goldmines and key sectors of the economy to be nationalized, under the democratic control and management of the working class. For this, it is necessary to organize a workers’ and poor people’s ‘kurultaya’ and the formation of a workers’ government, in which all layers of the working class are represented.
From Socialist World. (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/4214)

[Robocommie]

It's kind of funny to me how lately the US efforts in Afghanistan have been falling down the fucking stairs, and hitting every step on the way down. It seems like things just keep going wrong. Well, I say it's funny, but of course it's not because a lot of people are dying. But god-damn!

[Chambered Word]

True, but I doubt that any major nation will militarily intervene, since for Kyrgyzstan there is no possible cover to justify an invasion.

I think you underestimate the power of nations to bullshit their own people. Look at Haiti: there was a bit of rioting, so the mass media took the opportunity to report it instead of giving coverage to important matters. And whether due to the fact that nobody really cared about Haiti to start with, the media's omission of facts or both there was a great deal of indifference to the troop deployments and shutting down the airport for hours if anyone even knew about them in the first place.

My guess is that the Russian/American media would just have to represent Kyrgyzstan as a chaotic wasteland of constant rioting where babies are burned for warmth and eaten for breakfast and nobody would think twice if so-called peacekeeping forces were sent in. Half the time they don't have to go very far to justify wars because everyone is half asleep anyway. Case in point: the Iraq War.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Here's a much less pessimistic analysis (links ommitted; they can be accessed at the link at the end):


Friday, April 09, 2010

Revolution in Kyrgyzstan: nothing to do with tulips. posted by lenin

The 'colour revolutions' of the Bush era are not exactly in rude health. Ukraine, whose future was orange back in December 2004, has reverted to its post-Soviet rulers. Georgia, which had its 'Rose revolution' in 2003, has lost a fight it picked with Russia, and its leadership has barely survived the subsequent protests and armed mutiny. Now Kyrgyzstan has overthrown the government established by its 'Tulip revolution' some five years ago.

Kyrgyzstan's revolt was never quite like the others, however. The opposition leaders, to be sure, were educated in the techniques of popular mobilisation by right-wing Liberty Institute activists in Georgia. And they were hugely reliant on support from US institutions like USAID, as well as publishing support from Freedom House. But, whereas the masses played a largely passive role in Georgia and Ukraine, essentially supporting a struggle carried on within the state machinery, the opposition in Kyrgyzstan had to mobilise people to revolt if it wanted to take power. President Akayev was not going peacefully. They had to seize government buildings and police stations, which they did beginning in the southern cities of Osh and Jalalabad. They had to convoke mass meetings, kurultai, at which they passed resolutions declaring Akayev's reign illegitemate. They had to physically occupy the palace and drive the president out. Dragan Plavsic narrates:


on 24 March, the protests spread to the capital, Bishkek, where a mass demonstration, swelling to some 50,000, stormed the presidential palace, forcing Akayev from power. Widespread looting and arson then followed. Something of the flavour of these events was captured by Times reporter Jeremy Page when he visited the presidential palace:

In Mr Akayev’s personal quarters I found a protester in a general’s hat raiding the fridge. Another was having a go on the president’s exercise bike and a third was trying on his multicoloured ceremonial felt robes. The president himself had fled.12
These events demonstrate that, to use Page’s phrase, ‘geopolitics was not the driving force behind the Kyrgyz revolution’.

Just as it would have been wrong then to reduce the 'Tulip' revolt to external manipulation, so it would be wrong now to reduce the revolt against Kurmanbek Bakiyev's government to the "long arm of Moscow". Russia's government has certainly been agitating against Bakiyev since he declined to host a Russian military base while hosting a US base. One immediate source of the rebellion was high energy prices brought about by Russia's decision to impose new import duties on Kyrgyzstan's energy from Russia. And Roza Utunbayeva, of the Social Democratic Party of Kyrgyzstan, who has declared herself the country's 'interim leader', has been cultivating Russian support, appearing on Interfax to denounce the government for having "stolen our revolution". She now thanks them for helping to "expose" the "criminal, nepotistic" regime of Bakiyev. The Social Democrats, themselves participants in the 'Tulip' revolution, allege that their candidate, Almazbek Atambayev, won last year's presidential elections, which Bakiyev claimed to have won by 83%, and are thus quite ready to pluck the fruit of this revolt with Moscow's support. And in the service of ensuring their control, they are authorising the police and militias to shoot any suspected 'looters'. (No trivial matter: the presidential fir trees have already been pinched.)

However, the Social Democrats didn't make this revolution, nor did they or Russian supporters cause it. After all, Russia's influence in Kyrgyzstan is not greater than that of America. The underlying issue is that Bakiyev embarked on exactly the same programme of privatizing and expropriating public goods as all the neoliberal rulers in central Asia have, and resorted to thuggery, nepotism and suppression of the media when his power base and popular support began to fragment. The Social Democrats are already promising to restore two major electricity companies to public ownership. Bakiyev had explicitly opposed privatization in opposition, and his victory was won on the basis of popular revulsion against the dicatorial methods of his predecessor, so when the opposition accused him of stealing the revolution, there was some merit to it. And the government's reliance on US backing, as well as its continued support for the American military base, has generated massive public opposition. American backing is held partially responsible for enabling Bakiyev's corrupt and dictatorial regime. If, as looks possible, the US base is closed, that will be one of the most popular policies the new government implements. It will also shut down one of the key bases from which the US wages war on Afghanistan, something Obama is anxious to prevent. The struggle between Russia and the US for hegemony over this region remains, despite recent nuptials in Prague, lethal.

Notwithstanding the efforts by the Social Democrats to crown themselves the victors, this is not just a repeat of the 'Tulip revolution', in which public protests facilitate a shift of power between wealthy ruling class blocs. This sharp analysis explains why:


One difference between the 7 April protests and the Tulip Revolution is the level of violence. This week’s events were the bloodiest in Kyrgyz history. In confronting protesters, the police relied on live bullets while protesters used stones and Molotov cocktails. Official reports put the number of people killed at more than 60 and those wounded at more than 500.

Another difference was of regional character. While the Tulip Revolution was sparked by protests and government building seizures in the southern regions (Jalal-Abad, Osh), this time the protests erupted mainly in the poor and remote northern regions such as Talas and Naryn, where residents have long complained of exclusion.

There are other remarkable differences between the current protests and those of five years ago.

Triggers for the protests differed. Unlike the Tulip Revolution, when the spark for mass mobilization was the Akaev regime’s efforts to block a number of wealthy opposition elites from gaining seats in parliament, the current protests were triggered by simmering anger at the grassroots level.
...
Yet another notable difference between April 2010 and March 2005 were the "engines" behind the change. During the March 2005 protests, demonstrations were organized by wealthy elites who felt that their bids to gain seats in the parliament were threatened by the incumbent Akaev regime. Such elites then mobilized their supporters in their towns and villages, relying on local networks and offers of cash. The protests we saw on 7 April were sporadic and chaotic. In many ways, they appeared to be more an uncoordinated grass-roots revolt by a disenchanted population than an elite-driven and planned campaign. As a result, the speed with which the protests erupted and spread was surprising, not only to international observers, but also to many locals. The administration and some opposition leaders seem to have not appreciated the extent of popular anger and were themselves taken aback. In other words, because there was no credible information about the distribution of power before the protests, there was little room for opposition factions and the incumbent regime to come to a negotiated settlement.

Neither the government nor opposition factions are in full control of the crowds. Already, there are reports of destruction of property and marauding in Bishkek and the regions that have seen protests.

If the 'Tulip revolution' wasn't a precise replica of its Georgian and Ukrainian cousins, this revolt is as different as can be. Despite an extraordinarily violent crackdown by Bakiyev, the grassroots insurgency prevailed. Protesters succeeded in taking over police stations, weapons, even winning police over to their side. They have demonstrated that the state does not possess a tight control over the means of violence, and that therefore popular demands cannot be ignored or suppressed. The Social Democrats, despite attempting to take the reins of power, still don't really control the country. If they attempt to control it with violence, they may face the same end as Bakiyev and Akayev.

From here:

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2010/04/revolution-in-kyrgyzstan-nothing-to-do.html

[AK]

My guess is that the Russian/American media would just have to represent Kyrgyzstan as a chaotic wasteland of constant rioting where babies are burned for warmth and eaten for breakfast and nobody would think twice if so-called peacekeeping forces were sent in. Half the time they don't have to go very far to justify wars because everyone is half asleep anyway. Case in point: the Iraq War.
Don't be silly, Lewis. Our Aussie media tells us that it's really the boat people that use babies as firewood.

:lol:

[praxis1966]

Don't be silly, Lewis. Our Aussie media tells us that it's really the boat people that use babies as firewood.

:lol:

If you listen to Evangelist pastors in the U$, it's only the Jews that do that.

[zimmerwald1915]

If you listen to Evangelist pastors in the U$, it's only the Jews that do that.
But we do eat babies. And Christian babies at that.:rolleyes:

[Glenn Beck]

So, for people who haven't been paying attention to long term trends in Revleft thinking:

Politically diverse mass movement in Central Asian nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) against authoritarian government, bourgeois leadership favorable to US imperialism: Second Coming of the Proletarian Christ

Politically diverse mass movement in Central Asian nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrgyzstan) against authoritarian government, bourgeois leadership favorable to Russian imperialism: diabolical bourgeois tricks, nothing any leftist should care about

[Dimentio]

So, for people who haven't been paying attention to long term trends in Revleft thinking:

Politically diverse mass movement in Central Asian nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) against authoritarian government, bourgeois leadership favorable to US imperialism: Second Coming of the Proletarian Christ

Politically diverse mass movement in Central Asian nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrgyzstan) against authoritarian government, bourgeois leadership favorable to Russian imperialism: diabolical bourgeois tricks, nothing any leftist should care about

When it comes to Iran, I think it was a special case due to the fact that most leftists in Europe have members in their organisation who are exile-Iranians, given that Tudeh was rather large in Iran prior to the revolution.

[Crux]

So, for people who haven't been paying attention to long term trends in Revleft thinking:

Politically diverse mass movement in Central Asian nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) against authoritarian government, bourgeois leadership favorable to US imperialism: Second Coming of the Proletarian Christ

Politically diverse mass movement in Central Asian nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrgyzstan) against authoritarian government, bourgeois leadership favorable to Russian imperialism: diabolical bourgeois tricks, nothing any leftist should care about
That's certainly not my opinion...but then again, I am not the whole of revleft.

[chegitz guevara]

I briefly saw something about the new government closing the base.

[Crux]

I briefly saw something about the new government closing the base.
Even if it's one imperialist state over another, that's good I suppose.

[RedHK]

Hmmm, does anyone smell Socialist Romania repeat? I sure do :rolleyes: Just seems kinda reversed politically.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

It is starting to look like the new government will indeed be some kind of Russian satellite, since the Russians were about the first to recognize the new Bishkek administration.

[Rousedruminations]

Yes indeed you are right here ;) the new government will indeed be some kind of Russian satellite, Russia's primary objective is to hold its soviet influence over the rest of Europe, without NATO and Americanism

[Coggeh]

Yes indeed you are right here ;) the new government will indeed be some kind of Russian satellite, its primary objective is to hold its soviet influence over the rest of Europe, without NATO and Americanism
Soviet influence.... I thought those guys broke up ?
http://deadhomersociety.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/simpson-tide1.png?w=512&h=384

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

Soviet influence.... I thought those guys broke up ?

Yes, that is what we wanted you to think...
Muahahahahaha...

[Sentinel]

You, though, have certainly succeed in making yourself look like a smug little brown-tongue running around after the bosses because he wants the supervisors job.

Devrim, if you wish to contest a warning, bring it up in the Members forum. This, however, is clearly flaming and not OK, so I'm going to have to verbally warn you for it.

There is no need for this kind of tone on the forums no matter what we think about each other and about mod decisions. Personally I think the infraction was quite justified, and many other members were indeed disturbed by the comment by this now banned member.

If not racist it was definitely chauvinist in the extreme, and we do not tolerate that sort of thing here.

[mlgb]

So, for people who haven't been paying attention to long term trends in Revleft thinking:

Politically diverse mass movement in Central Asian nation against authoritarian government, bourgeois leadership favorable to US imperialism: Second Coming of the Proletarian Christ

Politically diverse mass movement in Central Asian nation against authoritarian government, bourgeois leadership favorable to Russian imperialism: diabolical bourgeois tricks, nothing any leftist should care about

likely because in Iran the protesters never actually took power so we didnt get to see what sort of .gov would shape up so all the hopeless optimists just projected a best case scenario of could-be onto the whole event.

or something.

[Bilan]

Even if it's one imperialist state over another, that's good I suppose.

How is being in the service of imperialism a good thing? How is that going to benefit the working class in anyway at all?

[gorillafuck]

True, but I doubt that any major nation will militarily intervene, since for Kyrgyzstan there is no possible cover to justify an invasion.
The US isn't necessarily going to tell us if they begin to meddle in Kyrgyzstan.

[iskrabronstein]

I see the events in Kyrgyzstan more as a tragedy than a movement capable of progressive change. Whatever the methods of popular mobilization used by the opposition, the actual progress of the revolutionary struggle points to a decisive lack of leadership and coherent political organization.

Ben Judah's article in Foreign Policy portrays this clearly, I think:


They have no other choice but to storm on. More than 5,000 people are now in the square and along the main thoroughfare. Gunshots die down. Opposition leader Timur Sariyev has arrived in the square and waves at the crowds. He is met with little adulation -- they are waiting orders.

Even within the crowd people seem jaded. "I don't know if this is a good thing," mutters one young man. "We'll just have to wait and see," chips in his friend. "I don't expect things to really change," mutters a rioter, "but today is a revolution." There is no jubilation and frenzied utopian plans. The crowd has no idea what the opposition stands for. Instead, it watches unenthusiastically and shouts as if participating in something rather like a deadly election.



The streets are a jigsaw puzzle of calm and chaos. One corner might be dominated by looting crowds -- another perfectly calm.

"Lenin ... now that was a revolutionary," mutters an elderly devout Muslim man, "he robbed from the rich and gave to the people. ... Today the rich fight each other using the people." He is gazing at a Communist statue as revolutionary vigilantes march past.


This is simply one section of the national bourgeoisie using popular anger as a hammer against its rival - the fact that the bourgeoisie do not retain complete control over the movement's progress follows logically from this characterization. What's more, the movement itself is not leftist in any coherent sense.


"We captured the building ... Lots of people died, but now we are in control." The older man waves his laminated membership card of an opposition party in my face and grins at the placard.


"The Jews are Kaput. ... The Jews are already gone."


A smoker chides in from the left. "The Jews were around the president and his gangster son Maxim. They were taking over our economy, with banks and capital. They have fled." A twisted and torched car hulks on the pavement. Incinerated skeletons of the armoured trucks rioters used to smash down the railing of the White House are still beached where they torched.


I reserve judgment about the viability of this movement politically - time will allow us to better discern its true characteristics. But I am not particularly hopeful, and am quite frankly saddened by the amount of bloodshed caused by disorganization in this struggle.

[bayano]

Sure, it's not a socialist revolution, but if the opposition is principally from socialist(ic) parties and there is a platform of price controls on utilities and renationalization of certain industries, there is a definite socialistic and left touch to what appears to be a genuine popular revolt. They are also signaling a shift toward parliamentarianism over US style republicanism. This is not, say, Nepal or Bolivia, but it is a very welcome development. A so-far successful popular revolt for political and economic reforms to the left and against corruption. I think the region could use a little hope, and if this turns out to be more positive than the tulip revolution, it's a good thing.

It signals, among other things, the continued weight of a post-soviet socialist movement, and its capacity to pull at least somewhat out of the US sphere of influence and neo-liberal policy.

[Crux]

"Lenin ... now that was a revolutionary," mutters an elderly devout Muslim man, "he robbed from the rich and gave to the people. ... Today the rich fight each other using the people." He is gazing at a Communist statue as revolutionary vigilantes march past. -- from a report on the Kyrgysz upheavals. is it possible for a quote to be inspiring and depressing at the same time?

Stolen from a comrade on facebook.