Should We Support School Vouchers?

[Outinleftfield]

If you think about it this would open up opportunities for more students to go to schools that teach a socialist, communist, or anarchist(such as the Free School Movement) perspective. Public schools are designed to teach the ruling class' ideology so they won't teach that. Most supporters of vouchers are conservative Christians who want to send their kids to private schools, but these parents tend to be so repressive of human nature their kids are likely to rebel, especially in that environment. These kids would otherwise just get brainwashed in public schools so there's not much difference other than that the private schools' might be so blatantly unreasonable that the students reject their teachings.

If they had school vouchers we could point interested parents in the direction of going to private schools that endorse communism. So maybe by supporting vouchers the far right is unknowingly shooting itself in the foot and if they get vouchers passed this would actually help us.

[The Red Panther Party]

sorry but wtf are you talking about comrade?...what vouchers

[#FF0000]

Abso-fucking-lutely not. Money for school vouchers comes out of money for the already underfunded public school system. That is a terrible idea.

[danyboy27]

The main controversy over school vouchers is it puts public education in direct competition with private education, threatening to reduce and reallocate public school funding to private schools. Proponents assert that voucher systems promote free market (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market) competition among schools of all types, which provides schools incentive to improve.

[CartCollector]

Proponents assert that voucher systems promote free market (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market) competition among schools of all types, which provides schools incentive to improve.
Problem is that parents don't want to hear that their child isn't doing well at school, so free market competition will just lead to parents stuffing their kids in the schools that give them the highest grades, regardless of what the kids actually learn.

[Weezer]

Vouchers are like communes-they try to hide themselves from reality.

People should reform the school system, not create a new oppressive system.

[Sendo]

Independent socialist schools sound nice. But in reality vouchers will result in business style, skills-centered "education" and competition and wasted money instead of cooperation and pooled money.

Information should be collected, not pitted against its parts.

[jake williams]

Total fucking scam.

This is from a pretty right wing commentator, should still give you the general gist (if I recall correctly, it's about a month old).

Part 1: http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/5/protests

Part 2: http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2010/3/8/part_ii_leading_education_scholar_diane_ravitch_on _the_death_and_life_of_the_great_american_school_s ystem

[Raightning]

The left should not on any planet support school vouchers, because ultimately they are a drain on the working-class and utterly counter-productive to the cause of creating a communist mass movement and ultimately revolution

Sure, it might be better for some to be educated in a socialist environment. Maybe it will entrench socialist belief in them; of course, it could at the same time not do so, but we'll assume that it will for the purposes of thinking about this. Yet, what it will also do is separate socialist families from the mainstream school system. It builds an insular culture, in which living socialistically on a small level with fellow socialists is encouraged.

This is absolutely wrong, and not even genuinely leftist; it's something more in line with wealthy bourgeoise-imitating liberalism. If we want revolution - and I don't think anyone here doesn't - the single biggest obstacle is making socialism an insular trend. We cannot build socialism while capitalism still surrounds it!

There's also the problem that this will hurt both the welfare and the education of the working classes. Very few will send their childs to socialist schools for many reasons - quality of education could be lower because of less funding, many still have a false capitalist consciousness in the West, and so on - and most working-class children will either stay in public schools or go to religious or capitalist institutions. And, in the former, they will find that with far less funding (it may stay the same per child possibly, but economies of scale, infrastructure costs, and so on will effectively reduce it) oddly enough they may get a far poorer education.

Even if all schools were of equal educational quality somehow, tactically we neuter ourselves by allowing an artificial division. Public schools, like other public institutions, are often a strong mantle from which socialism can be promoted and taught potentially. I'd rather have 100 kids exposed to a potential socialist platform, than 50 in socialist teaching and 50 in religious and capitalist teaching (and of course even that's a ridiculous over-estimate of how far 'our' side could reach). You argue that they teach ruling class ideology, but neglect that they aren't without the possibility to be turned on some level towards our cause.

School vouchers don't make sense in any socialist context, even a thoroughly reformist one, and the left must oppose them.

[Jimmie Higgins]

No way we should support vouchers or charter-school programs.

1. Vouchers and charters are a union-busting scheme. The talk of teacher merit is code for breaking the unions.

2. In many places vouchers are back-door segregation. The home-school movement was once hippies that wanted to escape the system, but now it is largely supported by white professionals and evangelical right-wing Christians. Vouchers could mean public money going to schools that promote a right-wing agenda; exclude atheists or LGBT people from teaching.

3. Ideologically the voucher idea promotes the idea that the free-market can do things better than a public system.

But this is a tricky subject to tackle because the public school system is shit and basically purgatory before entering jobs or the bad end of the legal system for increasing numbers of working class kids and people from working-poor families.

So we can't just argue against vouchers and ignore the state of the schools as they are. We have to argue that the state schools are failing because of a lack of funding, impossible standards for teachers and students and a focus on teaching to the test. We also need to point out the de-facto racial and economic segregation in public schools as a huge source of the problems working class people have with schools and how vouchers and charters will, in fact make this much much worse for the majority of students.

Since the public school system was one of the ideas that came out of the more radical edge of reconstruction after the Civil War, we could also argue for reparations to be paid in the form of massive investment into public education in historically poor black areas.

[praxis1966]

Look, all philosophical arguments aside, there whole concept of school vouchers is logically unsound.

To start with, whether you approve of the U$ Constitution or not, giving public funding to parochial schools is unconstitutional. I could get into why that is, but there's been entire fucking books written on the subject, so I doubt there's anything I could possibly say that they couldn't say better.

Further, I remember back when the state of Florida first passed its voucher program (of course, attached to the similarly idiotic Sunshine State Standards). In Pensacola alone, of the 30 odd private schools, not one of them accepted students with vouchers. Basically, the voucher system is just a dog and pony show to make politicians in conservative states appeal to their base. You can talk all you like about starting up 'socialist schools,' but I can tell you right now, I wouldn't send my kid to one. Least ways not until it had been properly accredited by the state, and I can guarantee that most other leftist parents would say the same thing.

Then, of course, there's always this lovely bit of business: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Voucher+Moms+Outraged+By+Kids%27+Treatment+At+Fla. +Private+School.-a060059467. Of course, this wouldn't happen at your hypothetical socialist school, but you can't support vouchers and then pretend you'll be the only one getting them.

[Robocommie]

Supporting private schools is supporting privatization. We have to push for high quality FREE education, not against it.

[syndicat]

No way. "Choice" sounds nice but this was the code word for the segregationists. The more privileged classes will sort their children into certain schools and let the rest of the system collapse.

Charters are the current agenda of the Obama administration as they were of the Bush administration. It's the chosen method of moving towards privatization without an actual voucher system. Vouchers would be worse, actually, because they could charge money on top of the funds from the state, which would further enable class and race segregation. Charters do this too but in more subtle ways, mainly cherry picking who they accept as students.

Vouchers and charters are tactics for privatization and for breaking teacher unions...the largest unionized occupational grouping in the USA.

Even within the public school systems, parents of the bureaucratic class (lawyers, doctors, managers, accountants etc) will use their political power and influence to carve out separate "tracks" and special programs for their kids, while working class kids are stuck in underfunded, overcrowded classrooms that mainly teach to the narrow curriculum for the standardized tests. These tracking schemes work through the use of standardized tests like OLSAT and others. For decades it's been known the results from these tests largely correlate with the class (and to some extent race) background of students. That's because in early childhood highly educated and wealth parents do various kinds of things that help to build vocabulary and skils of their kids, and lower income kids start out somewhat behind, and this class difference persists in test averages throughout school.

What we need to fight for is smaller classes and more support for learning for working class kids, giving all children the enriched learning environments that are now reserved for the privileged who attend highend "tracks" in public schools or the schools in wealthy suburbs.

[Glenn Beck]

Left-wing socialist private schools? LOL are you serious?

[Crux]

Left-wing socialist private schools? LOL are you serious?
In all seriousness there are such thing's as schools owned by progressive groups. I go to one myself, and basically all the teachers are on the board so it's almost worker's owned. But unless there would be a massive such movement that could provide an effective alternative to the public school system no way in hell should we support slashing the public school in favour of private for profit education. At present time, as others have noted, we should focus on fighting for better public schools. As I go to one myself I am in no way opposed to building state funded but independent schools owned by left wing social movements, and to be fair Karl Marx himself supported this idea. Building that movement is important, and, as they do here, can work as a progressive adult education auxiliary to public schools, but at the same time we can't be utopian and we have to look at the way thing's are today.

[Cal Engime]

To start with, whether you approve of the U$ Constitution or not, giving public funding to parochial schools is unconstitutional. I could get into why that is, but there's been entire fucking books written on the subject, so I doubt there's anything I could possibly say that they couldn't say better.The Supreme Court would disagree with those books. See Mitchell v. Helms (2000).

In historical context, I think it's clear that the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment refers specifically to the establishment of a state church analogous to the Church of England.

[Crux]

For more info on the kind of school I go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_high_school

The article fails to mention that, at least in sweden, the worker's movement was also heavily involved in building the Folk High Schools, as well as the free churches, meaning, if you're looking for the christian left in sweden, folk high schools would be the best place to look. That said I have heard that a few folk high school are just christian, whereas the vast majority, while churches might be part owners (which of course wouldn't be a contradiction for the christian left), are secular and very progressive. The school I go to, for example, was founded by the Left Party - Communists, the main, euro-communist party, in the 1980's, it's current owners include the swedish-cuban friendship society, the left party (before 1991 known as The Left Party - Communists), friends of the earth and most of the teachers. I used to go to a school that was partly owned by local humanitarian christian groups, and partly owned by the teachers I believe. In the "school elections" the Left Party generally got 80-90%.

[Red Commissar]

I can't speak for other countries but I thoroughly oppose such a measure in the United States. Vouchers are sugar-coated and ultimately represent another step in an attempt of the government to pass the buck of social upkeep to other groups. Privatization to cut red tape and increase efficiency! Blah blah blah.

And would the United States willingly allow for their vouchers to be used at a "left-wing" private school? I doubt it. This is already disregarding that the majority of private schools in the USA are either religious or catered towards the more landed elements of American society.

The voucher movement in the United States, by and large, is rooted in groups opposed to our types of movements.

[Crux]

I can't speak for other countries but I thoroughly oppose such a measure in the United States. Vouchers are sugar-coated and ultimately represent another step in an attempt of the government to pass the buck of social upkeep to other groups. Privatization to cut red tape and increase efficiency! Blah blah blah.

And would the United States willingly allow for their vouchers to be used at a "left-wing" private school? I doubt it. This is already disregarding that the majority of private schools in the USA are either religious or catered towards the more landed elements of American society.

The voucher movement in the United States, by and large, is rooted in groups opposed to our types of movements.
I absolutely agree, and I see the same need here in sweden. Interestingly the Green Party of sweden seems to be more into the of supporting "alternative" private schools, which basically ends them up siding with the right. But then again they are more liberal hippies and careerists than left wing, gradually, and that's not to say they were that great to begin with, they've become just another establishment party, standing to the right of the socdems on issues such as private schools and some labour issues. For some reason people still see them as left, due to their enviromental stances, their relatively progressive view on immigration and LGBT-issues, and up until recently, when they abandoned it in favour of getting closer to the socdems, call for sweden to leave the EU.

[Sendo]

Left-wing socialist private schools? LOL are you serious?

I understand your sentiment, but like Mayakovsky said, something like that does exist. Your statement could be construed to say that organizations like Democracy Now! don't exist. It's not socialist, but it's not done for private, it won't expand into buying up entertainment channels (ha!), and they're filling a void left by Petroleum Broadcasting Systems.

[InTheSystem]

I actually attend a private, Catholic school; yet, I highly disapprove of this policy. The Blaine Amendments were one good thing the Republicans did. Ultimately, no matter what sort of private school the funds are allocated to, the student receives an education geared toward a particular ideology, as if public schools aren't biased enough already. Even supporting a school run with socialist ideals would be no better than funding a fundamentalist Christian academy. As with former President Bush's faith-based initiatives, I'm wary of providing money to organizations outside of the public domain, which cannot be controlled by the people themselves.