Cuban Counter-Revolution

[Comrade Anarchist]

Cuba is a hell hole. The economy is in shambles and the infrastructure looks like hell. There are 2 types of currency, the external is based on U.S. pricing and the internal one which the people use is barley worth the paper it is printed on. As cuba opens up young cubans are seeing that cuba is a hell hole. As Raul passed some reform the fidel zombies over and repeals it. The situation for the cuban people is shitty at best. Once fidel is dead, Raul will pass reforms or face the might of the people. The revolution overthrew one dictator for another and there will be another revolution that offers true freedom. So if you support castro even now when anyone can see that his policies have failed, then open your eyes and support a new revolution of the people.

[Incendiarism]

And thus the cubans were stirred to revolt.

[Morgenstern]

Cuba is a mess but what it replaced makes modern-day Cuba look like paradise. Cuba was a place that was so much like modern Haiti, now Cuba is a place with excellent healthcare and little crime, in those fields it rivals the USA.

[Drace]

Any evidence, statistics, etc? Oh no? You just happened to pick Cuba from the "Random topic I'm going to ramble on today" hat?

[Glenn Beck]

cool story

[The Red Panther Party]

and the USA is the great beacon of western civilization, you cappie wank stain

[Scary Monster]

http://www.cubatruth.info/

Jeez man, please read up on the facts before you go on your patronizing, rambling rants. Too many times you make threads, ramble about something that makes no sense and contradicts reality, then never respond to any replies.

Because of the Cuban revolution, cubans, compared to almost the rest of Latin America (which happen to be capitalist and are friendly to the US) have the lowest infant mortality rate (even lower than the US), highest literacy and life expectancy and rated by the United Nations as having the lowest poverty index, in all of Latin America. The US is fucking over the Cubans by imposing their criminal embargo (which every single country in the UN has voted against every year, except the US and Israel, of course), subjecting them to poverty and lack of material necessities, in order to force them to open up their country to US interests.

Despite all this, no one starves in Cuba and everyone has free healthcare and higher education. Lets lift the embargo (which also penalizes foreign companies that trade with Cuba, by restricting trade with the US- under the Helms-Burton Act http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/cuba/uscuba/HelmsBurton.html) and see how much more Cuba will flourish.

Please R-E-A-D before you make another moronic, elitist rant.

[Jacobinist]

I disagree. You've obviously never been there. Now is it a worker's paradise, absolutely not. But how naive and inexperienced would you have to be to have such an infantile belief? Cuba has problems. Some serious, others not so. Again you are comitting the classical lassiez-faire kapitalist critique of Cuba, while failing to realize that in criticising cuba, you are comparing the small island nation to the 1st world US empire (funny thing is that Cuba outranks the US in many things).

How about we compare Cuba more regionally, and more fairly with say Mexico, Guatemala, Panamaa, or why not compare Cuba to kapitalist 'free' Haiti? Cuba is doing just fine, flawed, but it's surviving.

[brigadista]

i visited the USA for the first time last year just after i went to Cuba and i can tell you that the mid western rural poverty i saw in the USA was far worse than anything i saw in Cuba

[GPDP]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/cs-calgaryherald/CommunityServer.Components.UserFiles/00/00/02/13/26/rant+icon.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0TTXDM86AJ1CB68A7P02&Expires=1270520462&Signature=9M21waVoSwqYdUGf2HAXBrpkm8Y%3d

This is how I picture CA sometimes.

[Richard Nixon]

I think Cuba is the next communist government set to fall (unless North Korea collapses). It's certainly been the most decent and humane of communist governments but even Raul Castro's pretty old. Perhaps it will seem that communism is actually a transition period between a banana republic and a modern capitalist democracy.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

While CA didn't specifically address this point, I think it's always interesting when people are like "ZOMG Cuba is a hellhole, the infrastructure is collapsing" when the economy of any country in Latin America that is allied with the United States would be decimated if the U.S. one day ceased to exist in the way the USSR did. Cuba's economic problems of the 90s are a valuable lesson on the inherent problems involved in dependency economies, and they are still reeling from some of those mistakes (meat consumption still lags behind much of the continent because of the Sovietization of the Cuban beef industry), but I think the country's ability to survive despite that mistake deserves some commendation.

To add...

Cuba has the highest calorie consumption per capita in Latin America and a pretty steady rate of economic growth, to add to the commentary other comrades have added.

Comrade Anarchist, answer me this: Let's assume, for a moment, that Cuba really is a totalitarian hellhole. How is it then, that the present Cuban state has managed to avoid overthrow, mass rallies against the state, and any notable growth in the counterrevolutionary opposition (that is heavily funded by the US) when significantly more repressive states were done away with by the people of those countries, usually much sooner? East Germany was an extremely repressive state, yet people rose up and overthrew that government in 40 years. Why hasn't this happened in Cuba, 51 years after the revolution? Why haven't we even seen the beginning of such a mass movement? There could very well be good reasons for this, but I just don't know what they are. Please, enlighten me.

[GPDP]

Comrade Anarchist, answer me this: Let's assume, for a moment, that Cuba really is a totalitarian hellhole. How is it then, that the present Cuban state has managed to avoid overthrow, mass rallies against the state, and any notable growth in the counterrevolutionary opposition (that is heavily funded by the US) when significantly more repressive states were done away with by the people of those countries, usually much sooner? East Germany was an extremely repressive state, yet people rose up and overthrew that government in 40 years. Why hasn't this happened in Cuba, 51 years after the revolution? Why haven't we even seen the beginning of such a mass movement? There could very well be good reasons for this, but I just don't know what they are. Please, enlighten me.

Didn't you know? All Cubans are brainwashed into obeying the government during their sleep by way of Fidel's Hypnosis Ray secretly located in space! :scared: Genius!

[Weezer]

I think Cuba is the next communist government

lol

Communist government=oxymoron

[Scary Monster]

I think Cuba is the next communist government set to fall (unless North Korea collapses). It's certainly been the most decent and humane of communist governments but even Raul Castro's pretty old. Perhaps it will seem that communism is actually a transition period between a banana republic and a modern capitalist democracy.

lolz. Except that Cuba was already capitalist, under Batista. Why dont you see how that worked out.

[The Ben G]

Cuba is a hell hole.

I think the DPRK gets that award, not Cuba.

[SouthernBelle82]

Cuba is a mess but what it replaced makes modern-day Cuba look like paradise. Cuba was a place that was so much like modern Haiti, now Cuba is a place with excellent healthcare and little crime, in those fields it rivals the USA.

Yep. The problem with people and looking at Cuba is they go by money and material wealth. Cuba has a ban on it from the U.S. I remember some time ago reading that a company, in Sweden I believe it was, wanted to trade with Cuba but the U.S. slapped them with a very heavy fine. I was like: wtf? But if you go by stats like education and health care issues they're doing very well. I'm impressed that 100% of the people can read compared here in the U.S. Go to even just your local prisons you can find plenty of people there who can't read sadly. Some not even pass jr high education.

[SouthernBelle82]

http://www.cubatruth.info/

Jeez man, please read up on the facts before you go on your patronizing, rambling rants. Too many times you make threads, ramble about something that makes no sense and contradicts reality, then never respond to any replies.

Because of the Cuban revolution, cubans, compared to almost the rest of Latin America (which happen to be capitalist and are friendly to the US) have the lowest infant mortality rate (even lower than the US), highest literacy and life expectancy and rated by the United Nations as having the lowest poverty index, in all of Latin America. The US is fucking over the Cubans by imposing their criminal embargo (which every single country in the UN has voted against every year, except the US and Israel, of course), subjecting them to poverty and lack of material necessities, in order to force them to open up their country to US interests.

Despite all this, no one starves in Cuba and everyone has free healthcare and higher education. Lets lift the embargo (which also penalizes foreign companies that trade with Cuba, by restricting trade with the US- under the Helms-Burton Act http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/cuba/uscuba/HelmsBurton.html) and see how much more Cuba will flourish.

Please R-E-A-D before you make another moronic, elitist rant.

And no child is homeless. Even the lgbt community has better rights in Cuba. Sure, they still have discrimination issues but not with the govt. In Cuba since the mid 90's at least Lgbt couples are treated the same as any married couple and they (the lgbt couple) don't even have to be legally married. They can just be a couple. And also if you're transgendered and you want the surgery it's free with their health care program.

[Comrade Anarchist]

So let me see if i got you all right here. Cuba is a thriving paradise where the infrastructure and cars are older than my mom. The government regulates peoples lives including internet access. Most cubans are not or untill recently allowed to stay in the nice hotels built for tourists. Wifi costs $8 an hour at these hotels and cubans can't access it. Power throughout cuba is turned on and off to preserve power. The reason people aren't below the poverty level is b/c the average person is so poor that in interviews they all say it ain't easy living in cuba. Sounds like a FUCKING great place.

Batista was bad alright and i have attacked the U.S. numerous times ass wipes. I don't think the embargo is a good thing, i think we ought to trade openly and stop worrying about ridiculous national interests. But you have to see that almost nobody in cuba wants to live under this ridiculous regime run by murders. The reason there hasn't been a revolution is b/c cubans probably don't see that one could happen. They have lived their lives under fuck nut castro for almost 50 years so they don't see an alternative. And don't blame this on the collapse of the ussr, it was around roughly 40 years with cuba and everything in cuba is fucking 50 years old. It sucks there and the new generation there is growing restless and for all of you to defend monstrous regime as castro's is spitting in the cuban peoples face. We all live in the U.S. or the U.K. or some other western nation so the facts of cuba we have are those that are given to us. The fact of the matter is that cubans should have self determination over their island. Young cubans will eventually take the reigns and demand change and you will dismiss them like the ayatollah dismissed the iranian revolutionaries.

And another thing, the only argument offered to me is that they have healthcare and a low infant mortality rate and the no one is homeless. Well first and foremost the money to pay for everybody's health care comes from stealing aka taxes. Not many people can support kids on their salaries so people aren't having many leading to the low amount of infant deaths. No one is homeless probably b/c a cuban home consists of about 4 walls a leaky ceiling and a picture of castro or che on the wall, that is of course unless you are part of the upper caste of government officials b/c they probably are well off.

[The Ben G]

So let me see if i got you all right here. Cuba is a thriving paradise where the infrastructure and cars are older than my mom. The government regulates peoples lives including internet access. Most cubans are not or untill recently allowed to stay in the nice hotels built for tourists. Wifi costs $8 an hour at these hotels and cubans can't access it. Power throughout cuba is turned on and off to preserve power. The reason people aren't below the poverty level is b/c the average person is so poor that in interviews they all say it ain't easy living in cuba. Sounds like a FUCKING great place.


This sounds to me like that one word. What is it? Oh yes...

CAPITALISM

[Comrade Anarchist]

This sounds to me like that one word. What is it? Oh yes...

CAPITALISM

Your fucking ridiculous. You all ***** capitalism whenever your false fake ass fucking stupid ass slavery based nazi leading ideology fails, which it has over and over and over and over again and cuba when cuba falls you can add another over. Free market Capitalism is not government, government is not free market capitalism. They are two very different things with 2 very different goals. The stifling of the individual by socialism is horrific and causes progress to dwindle if not totally stop. Free markets are individualism and socialism is slavery. Stop blaming your fucked after birth abortion experiments on free markets.

[Comrade Anarchist]

"Communists are going to hang you with your guts." whoever said that is stupid. communists can think their way out of their asses and their purely pernicious idea.

[Weezer]

Your fucking ridiculous. You all ***** capitalism whenever your false fake ass fucking stupid ass slavery based nazi leading ideology fails, which it has over and over and over and over again and cuba when cuba falls you can add another over. Free market Capitalism is not government, government is not free market capitalism. They are two very different things with 2 very different goals. The stifling of the individual by socialism is horrific and causes progress to dwindle if not totally stop. Free markets are individualism and socialism is slavery. Stop blaming your fucked after birth abortion experiments on free markets.


"Communists are going to hang you with your guts." whoever said that is stupid. communists can think their way out of their asses and their purely pernicious idea.

...

What the fuck.

[Comrade Anarchist]

...

What the fuck.

socialism only works by using slave labor, aka exploiting the workers and destroying individuals. Yes and i didn't mean to say nazi i meant FASCISM.

[Weezer]

socialism only works by using slave labor, aka exploiting the workers and destroying individuals. Yes and i didn't mean to say nazi i meant FASCISM.

How do you think capitalism works?

Oh, I forgot workers are lazy welfare queens, and all means of productions are owned by the ever-hard working rich.

Did I mention that factory workers are paid super-fairly?

[Chimurenga.]

socialism only works by using slave labor, aka exploiting the workers and destroying individuals. Yes and i didn't mean to say nazi i meant FASCISM.

Holy shit. Do you even remotely see the hypocrisy in your words right here?

:laugh:

[Comrade Anarchist]

How do you think capitalism works?

Oh, I forgot workers are lazy welfare queens, and all means of productions are owned by the ever-hard working rich.

Did I mention that factory workers are paid super-fairly?

Free market capitalism is voluntary so you can work or not, Does that make since b/c no one else here can get that. No one here must read my posts b/c i defend workers as productive and as the ones who will benefit under anarcho capitalism b/c they will have more power as individuals to rise up.

[The Ben G]

Free markets are individualism and socialism is slavery.

No. Eventually, a free market leads to slavery of the mass and freedom for the smaller percent. And if socialism is an ideology that promotes EQUALITY, how can it be slavery?

[Comrade Anarchist]

Holy shit. Do you even remotely see the hypocrisy in your words right here?

:laugh:

No i don't. Do you see the hypocrisy in your ideology. You advocate for a society where everyone is enslaved to the state. You say you want to free the workers yet all you do is further enslave them with your false pernicious bullshit.

[Comrade Anarchist]

No. Eventually, a free market leads to slavery. And if socialism is an ideology that promotes EQUALITY, how can it be slavery?

Free markets have never led to slavery, i know it is hard to do but look at history. Equality can only be brought about and enforced with totalitarianism and this will create inequality. That thing i mentioned earlier called HISTORY shows that.

[Scary Monster]

Your fucking ridiculous. You all ***** capitalism whenever your false fake ass fucking stupid ass slavery based nazi leading ideology fails, which it has over and over and over and over again and cuba when cuba falls you can add another over. Free market Capitalism is not government, government is not free market capitalism. They are two very different things with 2 very different goals. The stifling of the individual by socialism is horrific and causes progress to dwindle if not totally stop. Free markets are individualism and socialism is slavery. Stop blaming your fucked after birth abortion experiments on free markets.

What the fukk? How about you stop going on your Ayn Rand-inspired non-sensical, paranoid rants and try and make some logical points for once.

[The Ben G]

Free markets have never led to slavery, i know it is hard to do but look at history. Equality can only be brought about and enforced with totalitarianism and this will create inequality. That thing i mentioned earlier called HISTORY shows that.

Oh yes, because people working in grueling factories for minimum wage against their will by means of their Overseer, or sorry, Boss is not slavery? Well then, I must have misread that History thing.

[Comrade Anarchist]

"....The stifling of the individual by socialism is horrific and causes progress to dwindle if not totally stop. Free markets are individualism and socialism is slavery. Stop blaming your fucked after birth abortion experiments on free markets."? What the fukk? How about you stop going on your Ayn Rand-inspired non-sensical, paranoid rants and try and make some logical points for once.

alright ill make a logical point. Using a history book and philosophy and reason i can see that socialism has led to totalitarian regimes and that the false claims for equality have always been met with government enforced inequality. Now how about you use that organ called a brain and some good reason and see that socialism i regressive in nature and destructive to individuals.

[Che a chara]

Cuba isn't perfect, and the hostility it attracts from the 'world powers' because of it's anti-imperialist stance is obviously going to taint the media attention it receives. But for all it's downfalls, you can't deny the great positives the little island has achieved, especially with a near universal embargo placed upon it.

It would be lying to say that everything is in order and that it couldn't do with some changes to make living standards better, and I hope it does come out of this awkward situation, but to say that a capitalist 'revolution' is the way forward is ignorant beyond belief.

During these tough times temporary reforms should be introduced to help it's economy, but the letter of the law should always refer back to marxism, which truthfully the country hasn't always adhered to.

[Chimurenga.]

No i don't. Do you see the hypocrisy in your ideology. You advocate for a society where everyone is enslaved to the state. You say you want to free the workers yet all you do is further enslave them with your false pernicious bullshit.

I advocate a stateless society where workers control their means of production. So no, you're wrong and you are a complete idiot.

[Comrade Anarchist]

Oh yes, because people working in grueling factories for minimum wage against their will by means of their Overseer, or sorry, Boss is not slavery? Well then, I must have misread that History thing.

They work their freely do they not. I don't defend sweat shops or anything and the fact is that they only exist b/c of deals with government and governments are the antithesis to free markets. And in case you havent been able to tell i am an anarchist. In a socialist country it is work or be forced to work.

[Comrade Anarchist]

I advocate a stateless society where workers control their means of production. So no, you're wrong and you are a complete idiot.

So are you anarcho communist or a fucking idiot that believes that communism wont lead to totalitarianism and the killing of the individual.

[Che a chara]

alright ill make a logical point. Using a history book and philosophy and reason i can see that socialism has led to totalitarian regimes and that the false claims for equality have always been met with government enforced inequality. Now how about you use that organ called a brain and some good reason and see that socialism i regressive in nature and destructive to individuals.

Do you think that a developed country like, for example, the US, would also have problems with developing a socialist economy ? Countries which have applied socialism have all been near backward places without the development or means of production.

This capitalist individuality you speak is of major concern today. Are you not in agreement that today's societies are based on greed, selfishness and anti-social behaviour ?

[The Ben G]

They work their freely do they not. I don't defend sweat shops or anything and the fact is that they only exist b/c of deals with government and governments are the antithesis to free markets. And in case you havent been able to tell i am an anarchist. In a socialist country it is work or be forced to work.

No, they do not work there freely. Under Capitalism, in those countries without public schools, need to work to collect money, food, etc. in grueling conditions based on only getting the owner capital. Sometimes, working in those conditions is the only choice.

Anarcho Capitalism is freedom for the few and totalitarianism for the masses.

Free Markets promote slavery (either by means of trade, labor, etc.) and the like.

It doesnt matter if you are an anarchist, Egoism, sorry, Anarcho Capitalism CAN NOT WORK. It only circles back around to a government such as the Colonial Britain.

[Che a chara]

They work their freely do they not. I don't defend sweat shops or anything and the fact is that they only exist b/c of deals with government and governments are the antithesis to free markets. And in case you havent been able to tell i am an anarchist. In a socialist country it is work or be forced to work.

In capitalism you're forced to work too, if you don't you become homeless and penniless and resort to crime, drug use or suicide....

[Comrade Anarchist]

Do you think that a developed country like, for example, the US, would also have problems with developing a socialist economy ? Countries which have applied socialism have all been near backward places without the development or means of production.

This capitalist individuality you speak is of major concern today. Are you not in agreement that today's societies are based on greed, selfishness and anti-social behaviour ?

Yes to greed and "anti-social behaviour" but going by rand all that selfishness is actually selflessness.


No, they do not work there freely. Under Capitalism, in those countries without public schools, need to work to collect money, food, etc. in grueling conditions based on only getting the owner capital. Sometimes, working in those conditions is the only choice.

Say what, people need to work in order to survive. That sounds like reality which i know is really scary for you commies.


Anarcho Capitalism is freedom for the few and totalitarianism for the masses.

It is freedom for everybody. If there is no government then corporations won't be able to suppress competition, which will lead to lower prices so that people won't have to work as much.


Free Markets promote slavery (either by means of trade, labor, etc.) and the like.

Wow what a great argument you say they lead to slavery so they must HAHA. Free markets that have no government interference have never promoted slavery but instead of expounded individual liberty. It is totalitarian governments that have enslaved workers. They work or they are punished with more work or firing squad.


It doesnt matter if you are an anarchist, Egoism, sorry, Anarcho Capitalism CAN NOT WORK.

You say this and yet your perfect communism has failed over and over again. What makes an ancap society impossible, nothing. If individuals want freedom and liberty from everything oppressive then they will choose free markets over socialism any day. And they have in case you haven't guessed.

[The Ben G]

Yes to greed and "anti-social behaviour" but going by rand all that selfishness is actually selflessness.



Say what, people need to work in order to survive. That sounds like reality which i know is really scary for you commies.



It is freedom for everybody. If there is no government then corporations won't be able to suppress competition, which will lead to lower prices so that people won't have to work as much.



Wow what a great argument you say they lead to slavery so they must HAHA. Free markets that have no government interference have never promoted slavery but instead of expounded individual liberty. It is totalitarian governments that have enslaved workers. They work or they are punished with more work or firing squad.



You say this and yet your perfect communism has failed over and over again. What makes an ancap society impossible, nothing. If individuals want freedom and liberty from everything oppressive then they will choose free markets over socialism any day. And they have in case you haven't guessed.

You're just Glenn Beckkking up the argument.

[Comrade Anarchist]

In capitalism you're forced to work too, if you don't you become homeless and penniless and resort to crime, drug use or suicide....

Oh wow how horrible. Fucking retarded is what you are. Being homeless and penniless is b/c you didn't work y should we have a revolution b/c your too lazy to work. If you resort to crime then you obviously want to make money at a rate that work won't allow you so you are probably an asshole. Drug use doesn't even make sense capitalists can use drugs too. Suicide is a personal thing that no one has to do unless they want to. NO ONE IS FORCED TO JACK IN CAPITALISM. In socialism you are forced to work with the barrel of the gun breathing on your neck.

[mykittyhasaboner]

I'm at a loss for words here.

[Comrade Anarchist]

You're just Glenn Beckkking up the argument.

He is a fucking up the world with his brand of moronic neo conservative bullshit. You on the other hand are must be god b/c your argument consists of you going I SAY IT IS SO SO IT IS. Very large use of reason and logic.

[Comrade Anarchist]

I'm at a loss for words here.

It is b/c of the wave of amazing reason that is hitting you b/c you realize how tyrannical communism is. I doubt it.

[Che a chara]

Oh wow how horrible. Fucking retarded is what you are. Being homeless and penniless is b/c you didn't work y should we have a revolution b/c your too lazy to work. If you resort to crime then you obviously want to make money at a rate that work won't allow you so you are probably an asshole. Drug use doesn't even make sense capitalists can use drugs too. Suicide is a personal thing that no one has to do unless they want to. NO ONE IS FORCED TO JACK IN CAPITALISM. In socialism you are forced to work with the barrel of the gun breathing on your neck.

Why the fuck are you acting like a prick for ? What's with all this unprovoked abuse ??

Does your utopian capitalist society oppose imperialism, colonialism and division among racial and sectarian lines ?

[Weezer]

No i don't. Do you see the hypocrisy in your ideology. You advocate for a society where everyone is enslaved to the state. You say you want to free the workers yet all you do is further enslave them with your false pernicious bullshit.

To further enslave someone in socialism implies they are already enslaved in capitalism.

Ha.

[mykittyhasaboner]

It is b/c of the wave of amazing reason that is hitting you b/c you realize how tyrannical communism is. I doubt it.

Oh no I totally dig your wave of amazing reason, I'm just not sure I can comprehend the ideas coming from your superior mental capacity. Truly I'm shocked.

When you stop trolling the living shit out of OI, then maybe you can have a rational debate.

I really have no clue why you have not been banned yet....perhaps it's because your delusional narcisisitic rants are hilarious in some cases. Like this one.

[Comrade Anarchist]

Why the fuck are you acting like a prick for ? What's with all this unprovoked abuse ??

Does your utopian capitalist society oppose imperialism, colonialism and division among racial and sectarian lines ?

Yes b/c they are all creations of the state.


To further enslave someone in socialism implies they are already enslaved in capitalism.

Ha.

Wow you must b an english teacher to see that. Yes if we are judging by today then yes BECAUSE OF GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION IN THE ECONOMY WE ARE ENSLAVED AND TO FULLY PUT THE ECONOMY IN THE STATES HANDS IS TO FULLY REALIZE SLAVERY.

[Nolan]

So let me see if i got you all right here. Cuba is a thriving paradise where the infrastructure and cars are older than my mom. The government regulates peoples lives including internet access. Most cubans are not or untill recently allowed to stay in the nice hotels built for tourists. Wifi costs $8 an hour at these hotels and cubans can't access it. Power throughout cuba is turned on and off to preserve power. The reason people aren't below the poverty level is b/c the average person is so poor that in interviews they all say it ain't easy living in cuba. Sounds like a FUCKING great place.

Hi there dumbass, internet access in Cuba is low not because the Cuban government is a baby-eating death machine but because Cuba is not as connected to the rest of the world. Their internet is almost entirely satellite. As we speak, Venezuela is helping Cuba build an undersea cable to bring greater internet access to the island.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-9994491-94.html

It's no surprise a third world country holding out under an embargo is not a utopia, you fuckwit.

[Comrade Anarchist]

Oh no I totally dig your wave of amazing reason, I'm just not sure I can comprehend the ideas coming from your superior mental capacity. Truly I'm shocked.

When you stop trolling the living shit out of OI, then maybe you can have a rational debate.

I really have no clue why you have not been banned yet....perhaps it's because your delusional narcisisitic rants are hilarious in some cases. Like this one.

well thank you i like to think im funny sometimes but ill never be as funny as that marx guy. Gosh his book the communist manifesto was written for the sake of a good laugh for us rationalists.

[Comrade Anarchist]

Hi there dumbass, internet access in Cuba is low not because the Cuban government is a baby-eating death machine but because Cuba is not as connected to the rest of the world. Their internet is almost entirely satellite. As we speak, Venezuela is helping Cuba build an undersea cable to bring greater internet access to the island.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-9994491-94.html

It's no surprise a third world country holding out under an embargo is not a utopia, you fuckwit.

Alright so b/c they have limited internet access, the tourists should have full access and the people of cuba should have limited access. Sounds like the government is trying to limit the amount of information that reaches its people so as to keep them oppressed.

[mykittyhasaboner]

well thank you i like to think im funny sometimes but ill never be as funny as that marx guy. Gosh his book the communist manifesto was written for the sake of a good laugh for us rationalists.

Oooh this is fun, I can post stupid crap because if Comrade Anarchist can get away with it then so can I... hehehehehhehe


edit: and I wonder why you don't realize that everything you write is for the sake of a good laugh for me and practically everybody else reading your posts.

[Nolan]

It is b/c of the wave of amazing reason that is hitting you b/c you realize how tyrannical communism is. I doubt it.

Maybe it's because you're a fucking idiot troll.

[Comrade Anarchist]

Oooh this is fun, I can post stupid crap because if Comrade Anarchist can get away with it then so can I... hehehehehhehe


edit: and I wonder why you don't realize that everything you write is for the sake of a good laugh for me and practically everybody else reading your posts.

Maybe b/c if i didn't write here i would have to write on the mises board which is slightly boring.


Maybe it's because you're a fucking idiot troll.

Finally i was waiting for the last stage of a communist argument. It usually goes from moral to necessary to fuck you.

EVERYBODY BECAUSE I AM TROLL CUBANS HAVE RESTRICTED INTERNET ACCESS, the problem has been solved.

[Nolan]

well thank you i like to think im funny sometimes but ill never be as funny as that marx guy. Gosh his book the communist manifesto was written for the sake of a good laugh for us rationalists.

Oh so is this one of your objectivist fellows?

http://www.thetrickery.com/ama/med/straitjacket_new1.jpg

[Comrade Anarchist]

Oh so is this one of your objectivist fellows?

http://www.thetrickery.com/ama/med/straitjacket_new1.jpg

No b/c objectivism is based on reason and i don't think he can use reason all that well.

[The Ben G]

He is a fucking up the world with his brand of moronic neo conservative bullshit. You on the other hand are must be god b/c your argument consists of you going I SAY IT IS SO SO IT IS. Very large use of reason and logic.

No, im merely making a point.

[Nolan]

Alright so b/c they have limited internet access, the tourists should have full access and the people of cuba should have limited access. Sounds like the government is trying to limit the amount of information that reaches its people so as to keep them oppressed.

Like everything in the world, internet access takes money. Thanks to a certain superpower I won't mention here, Cuba is short on that and internet is more expensive that normal, so Cuban citizens can't often afford it.

And in case you didn't know, university students have uncensored internet. People like Yoani Sanchez blog regularly. Opposition movements are permitted in Cuba. Do you homework before you come on here and post ignorant drivel.

[Comrade Anarchist]

No, im merely making a point.

What point? You say free markets lead to slavery and you give me no evidence other than you commanding it so. I say socialism and communism lead to totalitarian regimes that destroy individual liberty for the sake of power and i bring with me a history book.

[mykittyhasaboner]

No b/c objectivism is based on reason and i don't think he can use reason all that well.

Nonsense, he looks like the kinda guy you can have a beer with. I'm sure hes just as logical and reasonable as those who think by advocating capitalism they are advocating individualism.

[Comrade Anarchist]

Like everything in the world, internet access takes money. Thanks to a certain superpower I won't mention here, Cuba is short on that and internet is more expensive that normal, so Cuban citizens can't often afford it.

And in case you didn't know, university students have uncensored internet. People like Yoani Sanchez blog regularly. Opposition movements are permitted in Cuba. Do you homework before you come on here and post ignorant drivel.

So obviously the idea that money should be done away with has been totally abandoned by communists. The government of cuba has destroyed the economy so maybe that would explain why they have no money to buy internet. Wow so cuban intellectuals have access all 3 of them. Im talking of the average cuban you know the people that your defunct ideology is supposed to represent are having new ideas blocked so as to prevent new thought. Yes i know there are opposition movements most of which are regularly oppressed or ignored.

[Nolan]

What point? You say free markets lead to slavery and you give me no evidence other than you commanding it so. I say socialism and communism lead to totalitarian regimes that destroy individual liberty for the sake of power and i bring with me a history book.

Apparently someone never studied labor conditions in the laissez-faire late 1800s...

So in Comrade Anarchist's world we have to judge socialism by the worst of the worst but we judge capitalism by some hypothetical fairy tale where capitalism is a meritocracy, no one is ever exploited or coerced, and the people always win through the free market. Do you see why you're a fucking idiot now?

[Comrade Anarchist]

So in Comrade Anarchist's world we have to judge socialism by the worst of the worst but we judge capitalism by some hypothetical fairy tale where capitalism is a meritocracy, no one is ever exploited or coerced, and the people always win through the free market. Do you see why you're a fucking idiot now?

From history tells us socialism has only produced the worst of the worst. We should judge every ideology by its practice and when applied to socialism we see that it leads to a totalitarian regime restricting freedom. We can see also that capitalism when when government interferes turns into liberal form of slavery and allows the rise of giant corporations that oppress people. We can also see though that unbridled free markets can and will produce individualism and liberty.

You must have a wrong definition of individualism b/c mine says that individuals win or fail on their own biddings. So people will lose in a free market but it will be of their own doing not b/c a state came with guns and took it away from them.

[Nolan]

So obviously the idea that money should be done away with has been totally abandoned by communists.

What?


The government of cuba has destroyed the economy so maybe that would explain why they have no money to buy internet.

O rly. Why don't you explain to us the effects of a 50 year embargo if you know so much about economics.


Wow so cuban intellectuals have access all 3 of them.

Oh, you mean the thousands of doctors and nurses Cuba trains every year.


Im talking of the average cuban you know the people that your defunct ideology is supposed to represent are having new ideas blocked so as to prevent new thought. Yes i know there are opposition movements most of which are regularly oppressed or ignored.

Well, gee, maybe there's just not enough internet to go around. You know how the Cuban government deals with some opposition protests? They often rally normal people from the streets to heckle them.

[Comrade Anarchist]

O rly. Why don't you explain to us the effects of a 50 year embargo if you know so much about economics.

Oh, you mean the thousands of doctors and nurses Cuba trains every year.

Well, gee, maybe there's just not enough internet to go around. You know how the Cuban government deals with some opposition protests? They often rally normal people from the streets to heckle them.

First off i don't condone the embargo and it has had effects on the cuban economy but as it is pointed out over and over again most nations of the world trade with cuba. No nation is strictly dependent upon the U.S. and if they were they should probably drown. But you can't blame the U.S. embargo on the fact that central planning ends in disaster. Cuba is nothing more than gust of wind from collapsing due to the governments mismanagement.

To your second point you didn't really answer my rebuttal to you, instead you decided that me being a jackass was a great argument against capitalism.

And to the third yes the ayatollah does the same thing. If the ayatollah called himself marxist everyone on this site would suck him off and called the resistance a bunch reactionaries that need to be sent to the gulag or in irans place to iran.

[Weezer]

Yes b/c they are all creations of the state.



Wow you must b an english teacher to see that. Yes if we are judging by today then yes BECAUSE OF GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION IN THE ECONOMY WE ARE ENSLAVED AND TO FULLY PUT THE ECONOMY IN THE STATES HANDS IS TO FULLY REALIZE SLAVERY.

Do you think in the 1800's when there were no unions or government intervention in capitalism, people were more free? :rolleyes:

[Nolan]

First off i don't condone the embargo and it has had effects on the cuban economy but as it is pointed out over and over again most nations of the world trade with cuba. No nation is strictly dependent upon the U.S. and if they were they should probably drown. But you can't blame the U.S. embargo on the fact that central planning ends in disaster. Cuba is nothing more than gust of wind from collapsing due to the governments mismanagement.

This is a typical tactic. Who else Cuba trades with is irrelevant. The only one worth trading with now is the US, as Cuba has its entire history until the embargo. The effects the collapse of the USSR had on Cuba alone silence any doubt of the embargo's effectiveness. Your assertion that central planning ends in disaster is a baseless one.



And to the third yes the ayatollah does the same thing. If the ayatollah called himself marxist everyone on this site would suck him off and called the resistance a bunch reactionaries that need to be sent to the gulag or in irans place to iran.

You don't pay attention do you?

[Scary Monster]

Maybe b/c if i didn't write here i would have to write on the mises board which is slightly boring.



Finally i was waiting for the last stage of a communist argument. It usually goes from moral to necessary to fuck you.

EVERYBODY BECAUSE I AM TROLL CUBANS HAVE RESTRICTED INTERNET ACCESS, the problem has been solved.

Or maayybee because you make empty, rambling, idiotic statements that make absolutely no sense, not intelligently addressing any points we make in a narcissistic tone, spew word-for-word Ayn Rand nonsense (in case you havent noticed, people who actually look at her "philosophy" dont take her seriously, as opposed to the current trend of hipsters superficially interpreting her arguments as "society hates people who are different"), and act like a baby with your "FUCK YOU ALL! GOD YOURE SUCH A FUCKING RETARD" statements. How about when we dont agree with you, you state events in history that applies to your argument or link us to facts, instead of rambling and merely saying "well if you look at history you retards". In seriousness, i can tell youre some immature teen age ass wipe that has never been out in the world. If not, you sure do behave that way.


Yes b/c they are all creations of the state.



Wow you must b an english teacher to see that. Yes if we are judging by today then yes BECAUSE OF GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION IN THE ECONOMY WE ARE ENSLAVED AND TO FULLY PUT THE ECONOMY IN THE STATES HANDS IS TO FULLY REALIZE SLAVERY.

Yeah and its all the State's fault :rolleyes: when coca cola hires paramilitaries in Colombia, Turkey, Indonesia, (all capitalist) etc to work with factory management to kidnap, torture and assassinate Labor Union leaders to intimidate their workers into disbanding their union and accepting $130 a month, down from $380 a month (in colombia) when they were in the union http://www.killercoke.org/who.htm
The state is the only thing guaranteeing a worker's decent life (minimum wage, weekends), which the workers fought for even with their lives.

[Comrade Anarchist]

Do you think in the 1800's when there were no unions or government intervention in capitalism, people were more free? :rolleyes:

HA no government intervention? Throughout the 1800's free markets rarely existed but instead there was heavy protectionism, which in case you haven't realized leads to things like monopolies and such which in turn lead to shitty lives. The 1800's were protectionist, the 1920's is where the government saw these monopolies as a threat even though they only come about as creations of government policy. So no they weren't more free b/c of the protectionist policies that hurt international competition which led to messed up economies around the world.

[Comrade Anarchist]

Yeah and its all the State's fault :rolleyes: when coca cola hires paramilitaries in Colombia, Turkey, Indonesia, (all capitalist) etc to work with factory management to kidnap, torture and assassinate Labor Union leaders to intimidate their workers into disbanding their union and accepting $130 a month, down from $380 a month (in colombia) when they were in the union http://www.killercoke.org/who.htm
The state is the only thing guaranteeing a worker's decent life (minimum wage, weekends), which the workers fought for even with their lives.

Yes b/c it is government policies that allows for corporations such as coke so subvert the free market and infringe on people's natural rights. Without the military force of the united states behind them no corporation would dare of doing anything such as you described in the world. Free Market capitalism is based on trade and competition, the fact that coke had no competition and no morals would lead to them committing acts of violence of that level.

[Weezer]

So anarcho-capitalism is an idealist dream like our communism? :thumbup1:

[Che a chara]

Comrade Anarchist, in your society mafias would run wild.

[LeftSideDown]

Comrade Anarchist, in your society mafias would run wild.

In Socialism/Communism the state is nothing more than a Mafia with a much larger army.

[Che a chara]

In Socialism/Communism the state is nothing more than a Mafia with a much larger army.

Hardly.... the socialist 'state' would be functioning for the benefit of society. The army would be the majority in that society, the working class, defending it's interests from capitalists and invaders. That's a good cause sure :p

[LeftSideDown]

Hardly.... the socialist 'state' would be functioning for the benefit of society. The army would be the majority in that society, the working class, defending it's interests from capitalists and invaders. That's a good cause sure :p

Because this is what the Socialist state has done in Russia and China right?

[GPDP]

Well, at the very least he's replying to counter-arguments now. I'll give him that much.

[Comrade Anarchist]

So anarcho-capitalism is an idealist dream like our communism? :thumbup1:
I wouldn't think communism a dream b/c everytime it is implemented the country goes from war communism to a communist capitalist meld to eventual collapse. And usually takes individualism and millions of lives with it.


Comrade Anarchist, in your society mafias would run wild.

Hardly.... the socialist 'state' would be functioning for the benefit of society. The army would be the majority in that society, the working class, defending it's interests from capitalists and invaders. That's a good cause sure :p

Your stupid, on both points really. The only thing a socialist army defends from is internal rebellion. Socialist states don't represent workers they represent the heads of the revolution. Socialist states have happened and they have turned into totalitarian governments that destroy liberty. Why do you continue to live with a blindfold on and see that they all failed or as i would say they succeeded and were in fact the eventual marxist end.

[Chambered Word]

Oh hey there Comrade Anarchist, tell me sir, are you 10 years old?

[Che a chara]

Your stupid, on both points really. The only thing a socialist army defends from is internal rebellion. Socialist states don't represent workers they represent the heads of the revolution. Socialist states have happened and they have turned into totalitarian governments that destroy liberty. Why do you continue to live with a blindfold on and see that they all failed or as i would say they succeeded and were in fact the eventual marxist end.

I'm not blindfolded. I can see and admit to the mistakes made in previous revolutions. You should learn from past mistakes and develop. If a revolution was to occur in a more industrialised nation, do you think the outcome, conditions and standards would be the same as in others ?

As my sig says, change is necessary, that there is no doubt.

[Morgenstern]

Comrade Anarchist is a practical person who looks at history for his information so let's analyze anarcho-capitalism and 'socialism'.

'Socialism': USSR, industrialized Russia and massively increased the standard of living; alcoholism rose in Russia after the end of the USSR

People's Republic of China, industrialized China and brought it up to be a massive regional power; united China and helped crush the very heavy patriarchy of past Chinese society

Cuba, turned a Haiti styled hell hole into a place that has a pretty good life when you consider it's in an impoverished region and is facing the giant (the USA).

But Anarcho-Capitalism is such a rational and brilliant idea so I'm sure we can look through history and easily find three examples!:

...
...
Somalia! Filled with a bunch of nice pirates who are happy to give you a tour after their 2 hour work day. 1st class healthcare and massive amount of wealth. A very successful democracy thrives there.

Come on guys let's jump ship, Anarcho Capitalism is clearly the wave of the future! All these past Anarcho-Cappy revolutions show it's just a matter of time before there is a second revolution. Paradise awaits! :rolleyes:

[Chimurenga.]

If anyone is wondering what Rothbard and Rand does to the human mind, Comrade Anarchist is a prime example.

[Jacobinist]

^ lolz.

I like the way he calls himself comrade anarchist. Only in America does the term anarchist imply someone like CA.

[Luisrah]

I wouldn't think communism a dream b/c everytime it is implemented the country goes from war communism to a communist capitalist meld to eventual collapse. And usually takes individualism and millions of lives with it because the capitalists provoke civil-wars, counter-revolutions, coups and etc, declare that their human rights record is a shame and bomb their fucking country



Your stupid, on both points really. Socialist states have happened and they have turned into totalitarian governments that destroy liberty because even when socialism is VOTED into power by the people, the USA come over, give the military some money, and they bomb the President in a coup that puts a dictator in power

OOooh, at last you're starting to make some sense there. :)

[Comrade Phil]

I'm not interested in going into all the ideological bullshit so I'm just going to comment based on what I experienced while in Cuba. The people I spoke with gave me general answers so don't expect anything to be very technical. Also, I didn't speak to a vast number of people either so that is something to keep in mind as well.

Cuba's economy is definitely spartan, but I don't think it is in any sort of crisis. The people I met said that they had a good living and were actually positive about Cuba's economy. The standard answer was that Cuba was far better off before the Soviet Union collapsed. They spoke as though goods were very plentiful and life in general was easier. They do seem optimistic about recent years due to the money tourists are bringing to the island.

The workforce is highly educated, perhaps overly so. Many people have an extensive university education but work in rather mundane fields. There does seem to be some anxiety about job opportunities in this regard. However, unemployment doesn't seem to be a big issue like it is in N. America. It is a generally accepted fact that people in Cuba choose to become beggars not because they cannot find work but because you can make a lot of money.

Cubans in general seem to be quite healthy. I was expecting many people to be underweight due to limited food supplies, but this is not the case. There is a clear dissatisfaction with the variety of food which citizens have available to them. That said, it is accurate to say that people do not starve in Cuba. Cubans are very satisfied with their health care system and recognize it as one of the best in the world. I'm not sure if it's true, but many people told me that there are about a million trained doctors on the island.

The average citizen is very patriotic. They are fervently proud of their culture, history and leaders. They hate the U.S. a great deal and are proud that they have stood up to the superpower. I would say that most Cubans feel their government has problems but they are definitely not going to overthrow it any time soon. The people I spoke with believed that their government is democratic. The standard answer was that they have a grassroots style of democracy different from that of the West. That said, I did notice that Cuba has a very large police force, even in rural areas there is an awful lot of police patrols.

I was surprised to see so few 1950's era cars in Cuba. Most vehicles are fairly modern models comparable to those found in other S. American nations. The infrastructure in Cuba is...uneven. It is a very striking feature of Cuba. Building conditions range from new development, to 70s Soviet era, to areas which are in rough shape. Special effort has been made to maintain the historical buildings in places like Old Havana. It would be difficult to label a particular community as being impoverished or affluent due to a wide range of housing conditions. There is a fair bit of rusting Soviet industrial equipment in the rural areas, but these places are by no means economically stagnant. What appear to be functioning farms, factories, warehouses, power plants, oil platforms and other industrial facilities are littered throughout some regions.

Cuba is neither a hellhole nor a worker's paradise. It does have significant economic problems, many of which would be greatly relieved if the embargo was ended. There is immense ingenuity and perseverance on the island. Crops are grown inside urban areas, farmers counter inflated fuel and pesticide prices by integrating pre-industrial techniques, low quality oil reserves are converted into useful industrial commodities. The CBC did a great documentary on Cuban ingenuity called Cuba: The Accidental Revolution. As for the politics, I would say most Cubans do still trust the Castro government, but I think more and more people are getting tired of sacrificing for the good of the Revolution.

[Drace]

Your stupid, on both points really. The only thing a socialist army defends from is internal rebellion.

God dam. Stupidness = Annoyance doesn't it?

Weren't you the one who earlier was admitting what a role the US plays in attacking foreign governments and destroying socialist governments?

[Scary Monster]

Yes b/c it is government policies that allows for corporations such as coke so subvert the free market and infringe on people's natural rights. Without the military force of the united states behind them no corporation would dare of doing anything such as you described in the world. Free Market capitalism is based on trade and competition, the fact that coke had no competition and no morals would lead to them committing acts of violence of that level.

What the fuck? No, coca cola gets away with this because they are accountable to no one. This is the whole point of corporations outsourcing their factories in the first place! A lack of labor, environmental, tax and ethical laws gives them free reign to do whatever the hell they want, to maximize profit margins. This would be especially true under "anarcho"capitalism. If this was the fault of the state, then tell me, why do corporations not do these kinds of acts in the US or any other first world country?

[Glenn Beck]

You assholes need to learn how to not feed trolls.

[Morgenstern]

You assholes need to learn how to not feed trolls.

Even trolls need to eat. :(

OI is troll sector though, except Bud Struggle. Bud Struggle is a pretty cool guy. Eh is a CPUSA member and doesn't afraid of anything.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Your fucking ridiculous. You all ***** capitalism whenever your false fake ass fucking stupid ass slavery based nazi leading ideology fails, which it has over and over and over and over again and cuba when cuba falls you can add another over. Free market Capitalism is not government, government is not free market capitalism. They are two very different things with 2 very different goals. The stifling of the individual by socialism is horrific and causes progress to dwindle if not totally stop. Free markets are individualism and socialism is slavery. Stop blaming your fucked after birth abortion experiments on free markets.


This is where you lose all credibility as a sane human being.
http://blogan.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/godwincat.jpg

[Left-Reasoning]

Apparently someone never studied labor conditions in the laissez-faire late 1800s...

So in Comrade Anarchist's world we have to judge socialism by the worst of the worst but we judge capitalism by some hypothetical fairy tale where capitalism is a meritocracy, no one is ever exploited or coerced, and the people always win through the free market. Do you see why you're a fucking idiot now?

I wish I could officially thank you for your wonderful post. Unfortunately, this will have to do.

[Drace]

Your fucking ridiculous. You all ***** capitalism whenever your false fake ass fucking stupid ass slavery based nazi leading ideology fails, which it has over and over and over and over again and cuba when cuba falls you can add another over. Free market Capitalism is not government, government is not free market capitalism. They are two very different things with 2 very different goals. The stifling of the individual by socialism is horrific and causes progress to dwindle if not totally stop. Free markets are individualism and socialism is slavery. Stop blaming your fucked after birth abortion experiments on free markets.I love this guy. Don't mess.

[Jacobinist]

CA is an idiot.

He's part of the American Libertarian right. I've had arguments with lassiez faire economists, in which they say slavery can be overted if people refuse to be allowed to become slaves. :confused:And that in ideal capitalism, coercion is nonexistent. WTF? Another thing I've heard once is that there are no market externalities. So I propsed a theoretical problem; the problem of a Corporation 'X' were polluting the water source from upstream, what could be done to stop them. The response was to 'take it to court'. To which I pointed out that 'I thought you were against the state.' To which I received a blank stare.:blink:

Not that this post is totally relevant, it's just to point out that liberatian-capitalist are dellusional and very common in middle class America, and can easily be exposed as followers of a corrupt philosophy.

[LeftSideDown]

I wish I could officially thank you for your wonderful post. Unfortunately, this will have to do.

I don't know, I'd much rather live in the "laissez-faire" 1800's than any period before then. I'm pretty sure living conditions were much better than they were under feudalism, despite all the dramatizations you guys have no doubt read.

[Scary Monster]

I don't know, I'd much rather live in the "laissez-faire" 1800's than any period before then. I'm pretty sure living conditions were much better than they were under feudalism, despite all the dramatizations you guys have no doubt read.

Well duh. Laissez-Faire" is better, but that doesnt justify its existence.

[LeftSideDown]

Well duh. Laissez-Faire" is better, but that doesnt justify its existence.

Not better, best.

[Drace]

Not better, best. The 1800s were the best?

[Scary Monster]

Not better, best.

Are you seriously saying Laissez-Faire 1800s was the best time period to live under?

[Comrade Anarchist]

Im sick of arguing with you all about your defunct pernicious ideology, but let me ask you one thing. If there were to be a true revolution of the people in cuba would you support them? Probably not.

And another as i answered before the 1800's were the years of protectionism and that is not laissez-faire but i guess you wouldn't know the difference considering you think totalitarianism is freedom when in fact it is slavery.

And one more thing, socialism has been put into place over and over again. Do you not see that. Right after the revolution in russia lenin implemented war communism which is pretty much hard line communism. It failed so they had to mix it with privatization. So communism failed and was instead replaced with a meld of communism and private ownership. This is the story of all communist regimes that have existed for any period of time. The ones here that think there is a nice totalitarian government are greatly confused, germany was the most socialist country in the world and they realized and so did the ussr that internationalism fails b/c you can not bring the world into one group against their will. The rise of national socialism is nothing more than the rise of socialism in germany and it was supported by all the socialists of that day. You all would have supported it too except for hitler decided to kill 11 million people. But you would have loved how he tried to spread national socialism, through military force. Since people will not accept socialism you must ram it down their throats. That is what russia did and that is what germany tried to do in ww2. No one except a few will accept your ideology so that is why war is your only tool for spreading it.

[Nolan]

Ban the troll please. He has proven over and over again he has no interest in contributing to the forum, unlike some other OIers.

[Nolan]

I don't know, I'd much rather live in the "laissez-faire" 1800's than any period before then. I'm pretty sure living conditions were much better than they were under feudalism, despite all the dramatizations you guys have no doubt read.

That's why more workers got hurt and killed on the job than ever before (without any compensation) and they were more militant than ever. A few got richer than their wildest dreams while the workers were left in the past in grinding poverty (until they successfully fought back). I love how libertarians, most of whom having never studied the period beyond economics, downplay the drop in living conditions during the Guilded Age. I'm sure most people in the middle ages had better lives than those who lived in the slums of London circa industrial revolution.

[Drace]

Wow your so quick in saying how socialism has always failed in practice. So...when has this real capitalism ever worked? You know without turning into states that interfere in the economy and create corporations and monopolies?


If there were to be a true revolution of the people in cuba would you support them? Probably not.Yes.


And one more thing, socialism has been put into place over and over again.You mean like in Anarchist Spain, the Paris Commune, Chile, Nicaragua, Yugoslavia, etc?


Right after the revolution in russia lenin implemented war communism which is pretty much hard line communism.Lol? Do you even know what war communism is? Or for the sake of the matter, do you know what communism is?

"ya uf curse i do! comunism is a totatalraan system of enslavin every1! isnt that obvius?"



So communism failed and was instead replaced with a meld of communism and private ownership.No it wasn't. You have no idea what the NEP was, apparently.


The rise of national socialism is nothing more than the rise of socialism in germany and it was supported by all the socialists of that day. You all would have supported it too except for hitler decided to kill 11 million people. But you would have loved how he tried to spread national socialism, through military force.???
Are you saying we like Hitler or National "Socialism"? Or even that socialists supported Hitler?...
The Communists were the Nazi's largest opposition.


Since people will not accept socialism you must ram it down their throats. That is what russia did and that is what germany tried to do in ww2. No one except a few will accept your ideology so that is why war is your only tool for spreading it.Yea sure.
Except that communism has had popular support in Germany, Nepal, Russia, Vietnam, France, Greece, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Chile, etc.

Dude, seriously. Read a fucking book.

[brigadista]

Free market capitalism is voluntary so you can work or not, Does that make since b/c no one else here can get that. No one here must read my posts b/c i defend workers as productive and as the ones who will benefit under anarcho capitalism b/c they will have more power as individuals to rise up.


exactly how can "individuals rise up" ?

[LeftSideDown]

Are you seriously saying Laissez-Faire 1800s was the best time period to live under?

You said laissez-faire, not specifically in the 1800's. I'm talking about as a general policy it is best.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Im sick of arguing with you all about your defunct pernicious ideology, but let me ask you one thing. If there were to be a true revolution of the people in cuba would you support them? Probably not.

And another as i answered before the 1800's were the years of protectionism and that is not laissez-faire but i guess you wouldn't know the difference considering you think totalitarianism is freedom when in fact it is slavery.

And one more thing, socialism has been put into place over and over again. Do you not see that. Right after the revolution in russia lenin implemented war communism which is pretty much hard line communism. It failed so they had to mix it with privatization. So communism failed and was instead replaced with a meld of communism and private ownership. This is the story of all communist regimes that have existed for any period of time. The ones here that think there is a nice totalitarian government are greatly confused, germany was the most socialist country in the world and they realized and so did the ussr that internationalism fails b/c you can not bring the world into one group against their will. The rise of national socialism is nothing more than the rise of socialism in germany and it was supported by all the socialists of that day. You all would have supported it too except for hitler decided to kill 11 million people. But you would have loved how he tried to spread national socialism, through military force. Since people will not accept socialism you must ram it down their throats. That is what russia did and that is what germany tried to do in ww2. No one except a few will accept your ideology so that is why war is your only tool for spreading it.

Socialism has never occurred.

[LeftSideDown]

Socialism has never occurred.

Neither has a perpetual motion device. They're both kinda the same in that they can't exist in the utopian sense you guys believe will come about.

[iskrabronstein]

This ridiculous notion that a capitalist economy can exist without a state apparatus, and remain at all functional, is such rank nonsense that I am surprised you even defend it. For all your appeals to authority ("History shows..."), you seem to be unaware of the fact that a capitalist enterprise operating in the absence of a regulatory state will itself assume the functions of the state.


The East India Company traded mainly in cotton, silk, indigo dye, saltpetre, tea, and opium. However, it also came to rule large swathes of India, exercising military power and assuming administrative functions, to the exclusion, gradually, of its commercial pursuits. Company rule in India, which effectively began in 1757 after the Battle of Plassey, lasted until 1858, when, following the events of the Indian Rebellion of 1857, and under the Government of India Act 1858, the British Crown assumed direct administration of India in the new British Raj. The Company itself was finally dissolved on 1 January 1874, as a result of the East India Stock Dividend Redemption Act. (Wiki)

Your entire chain of reasoning is backward - capitalist enterprises do not advance to monopolistic levels because the state's regulation magically makes them more powerful. On the contrary, corporations are given privileges by the state because they are powerful, and have direct influence over the real base of any state's activities - the economy.

To echo the wise words of some other comrades in this thread... read a book.

[Comrade Anarchist]

This ridiculous notion that a capitalist economy can exist without a state apparatus, and remain at all functional, is such rank nonsense that I am surprised you even defend it. For all your appeals to authority ("History shows..."), you seem to be unaware of the fact that a capitalist enterprise operating in the absence of a regulatory state will itself assume the functions of the state.

(Wiki)

Your entire chain of reasoning is backward - capitalist enterprises do not advance to monopolistic levels because the state's regulation magically makes them more powerful. On the contrary, corporations are given privileges by the state because they are powerful, and have direct influence over the real base of any state's activities - the economy.

To echo the wise words of some other comrades in this thread... read a book.

God your ridiculous. The East India Trading Company was a state sponsored monopoly that england used to commercially control parts of the world. In no way does a free market require a state. It is easy to see this everyday. Individuals act within the free market without any intervention and at the end of the day we are still alive.

My reasoning is quite correct. State intervention will lead to monopolies. Corporations grow and use the state to subvert the free market by getting regulations and pointless laws passed which hurt starting businesses and destroys competition and killing entrepreneurship. And as i have said before, one reason i am against a state is b/c they can be coerced by corporate interests. The fact that a state and corporations exist beside each other will lead to both using each other for the sake of power, which is why i am against both.

[Comrade Anarchist]

exactly how can "individuals rise up" ?

Individuals see injustice and the infringement of their liberties so they join together and rise up.


Socialism has never occurred.

This is what everyone who dislikes the ussr says. Socialism existed in germany as national socialism which was a semi creation of bismark b/c he didn't like the internationalism of the socialists, and it occured in soviet russia where it was implemented and subsequently done away with b/c it failed.

And to answer Drace war communism is where everything is under state control, riots made illegal, excess from farmers taken, state control of all trade, food and such rationed, and state control over railroads. The workers and armed forces revolted and lenin created the NEP which combined private ownership with communism, exactly what i have been saying. Communism was implemented and then was almost overthrown and replaced with a mixture of state and private ownership.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Individuals see injustice and the infringement of their liberties so they join together and rise up.



This is what everyone who dislikes the ussr says. Socialism existed in germany as national socialism which was a semi creation of bismark b/c he didn't like the internationalism of the socialists, and it occured in soviet russia where it was implemented and subsequently done away with b/c it failed.

And to answer Drace war communism is where everything is under state control, riots made illegal, excess from farmers taken, state control of all trade, food and such rationed, and state control over railroads. The workers and armed forces revolted and lenin created the NEP which combined private ownership with communism, exactly what i have been saying. Communism was implemented and then was almost overthrown and replaced with a mixture of state and private ownership.

You have proven time and again your lack of political, sociological and historical education. I'll give you the basics:

Socialism also referred to as the "dictatorship of the proletariat" is when the means of production and political power is in the hands of the worker (proletariat). It has never occurred. Not in the USSR, not in Cuba, not in Yugoslavia, not in Germany, not in China, not anywhere. This has to occur before communism can occur.

Communism is the end stage of Marxist theory in which socialism has occurred and the state has withered away. It is a stateless, moneyless and classless society. This, as is obvious by the fact that socialism has not occurred, has not occurred.

State Capitalism is what the USSR was. State Capitalism is when the productive forces are controlled and directed by the state in a capitalist manner, regardless if said state refers to itself as socialist. In the USSR the means of production was NOT in the hands of the proletariat.

Deformed Worker's State are states where the bourgeoisie has been overthrown through social revolution, the industrial means of production have been largely nationalized (still not given to the worker yet -- still not socialism), but where the working class has never held political power. Although I am not a Trotskyist I find many of his terms both accurate and appropriate. Examples of a deformed worker's state include Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam and the People's Republic of China.

National Socialism was fascism. The Nazis never had a real outlined economic programme. However, it is quite clear that Hitler, although he stated his opposition to both capitalism and communism, was supported by capitalists and corporations and he accepted that support as is obvious by the economy of Nazi Germany.

The economy of Nazi (National Socialist) Germany was capitalism and corporatism. The means of production was still in the hands of the bourgeoisie, ergo NOT socialism. The political power was in the hands of the Nazi party, which meant that political power was in the hands of Der Fuhrer, Adolf Hitler (who was supported heavily by corporations and the wealthy) ergo NOT socialism.

"I absolutely insist on protecting private property... we must encourage private initiative" - Adolf Hitler

Hitler also believed that individuals within a nation battled with each other for survival, and that such ruthless competition was good for the health of the nation, because it promoted "superior individuals" to higher positions in society.

Hitler's interpretation of socialism "has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism...".

War Communism was the economic and political system that existed in Soviet Russia during the Russian Civil War, from 1918 to 1921.

War communism included the following policies:


All industry was nationalized and strict centralized management was introduced.
State monopoly on foreign trade was introduced.
Discipline for workers was strict, and strikers could be shot.
Obligatory labour duty was imposed onto "non-working classes".
Prodrazvyorstka - requisition of agriculturral surpluses from peasants in excess of absolute minimum for centralized distribution among the remaining population.
Food and most commodities were rationed and distributed in a centralized way.
Private enterprise became illegal.
Military-like control of railroads was introduced.


Let me give you two simplistic ways of knowing the difference between Nazism (National Socialism) and Socialism (both Marxist and utopian).

Nazism, for the state and party.

Socialism, for the worker.

[iskrabronstein]

God your ridiculous. The East India Trading Company was a state sponsored monopoly that england used to commercially control parts of the world. In no way does a free market require a state. It is easy to see this everyday. Individuals act within the free market without any intervention and at the end of the day we are still alive.

My reasoning is quite correct. State intervention will lead to monopolies. Corporations grow and use the state to subvert the free market by getting regulations and pointless laws passed which hurt starting businesses and destroys competition and killing entrepreneurship. And as i have said before, one reason i am against a state is b/c they can be coerced by corporate interests. The fact that a state and corporations exist beside each other will lead to both using each other for the sake of power, which is why i am against both.

Your reasoning is not correct. Your reasoning is valid - this is distinct from correctness, as you clearly have no serious historical understanding of capitalism. If you would take time to do some research, you would find that the development of capitalism, as we understand it today, is directly the result of a process of primitive capitalist accumulation by corporations who were aided and abetted by state entities. Capitalism would never have existed without this alliance between state and private interests.

The assertion that the East India Company was an English state sponsored monopoly presupposes coordination of funds - this was not the case, the Company nearly failed several times in its early stages of development due to insolvency and competition from Dutch corporations. Indeed, the Company only began gaining in power and prosperity after being patronized by the Mughal Emperor, Nuruddin Salim Jahangir - yet even this agreement was strictly based on principles of free trade.


Upon which assurance of your royal love I have given my general command to all the kingdoms and ports of my dominions to receive all the merchants of the English nation as the subjects of my friend; that in what place soever they choose to live, they may have free liberty without any restraint; and at what port soever they shall arrive, that neither Portugal nor any other shall dare to molest their quiet; and in what city soever they shall have residence, I have commanded all my governors and captains to give them freedom answerable to their own desires; to sell, buy, and to transport into their country at their pleasure. For confirmation of our love and friendship, I desire your Majesty to command your merchants to bring in their ships of all sorts of rarities and rich goods fit for my palace; and that you be pleased to send me your royal letters by every opportunity, that I may rejoice in your health and prosperous affairs; that our friendship may be interchanged and eternal.


Beyond this, the most important state interference in the Company's affairs came when the Parliament tried to break up the East India Company's monopoly by creating a state-backed competitor. Yet the Company's directors, intelligent advocates of the free market that they were, bought a commanding share of the new corporation on the free market, completing the development of their monopoly status.

Seriously. Read a damn book.

[Drace]

This is what everyone who dislikes the ussr says. Socialism existed in germany as national socialism which was a semi creation of bismark b/c he didn't like the internationalism of the socialists, and it occured in soviet russia where it was implemented and subsequently done away with b/c it failed.Bismarck was a socialist?? He only fought to reduce the influence of socialism by implementing welfare programs.
At first I thought by national socialism you meant Hitler and the Nazis.

But wait, earlier you did mention Hitler and WW2. I don't see your train of thought. Bismarck is from the 1800s. Hitler came during the first half of the 20th century. Is there suppose to be some relation between the two? And your forgetting the whole phase of the Wiemar Republic.

Are you saying Hitler's policies evolved from Bismarck's "national socialism", which was nothing more than the creation of a welfare state?

Wait...WTF are you saying?


And to answer Drace war communism is where everything is under state control, riots made illegal, excess from farmers taken, state control of all trade, food and such rationed, and state control over railroads. War communism was a mixture of policies aimed at winning the Civil War. It turned the whole of Russia into a war factory. It was not at all a system aimed at all at achieving or implementing communism, other than defending it militarily against the White Army.
And you try and say that war communism qualifies as "communism being implemented" and failing? Are you considering war communism as communism successfully being implemented? You make zero sense.

Wtf. Not to mention the historical context of Russia being involved in a major world war, a revolution and a civil war economic just might have been the reason life was horrible during that time?
Hell, can you even tell me what was happening in Russia during this period of war communism? Hint: It has something to do with a war.

The NEP was what Lenin called a "strategic retreat". It was needed to jump start the economy after being devastated by the World War, the revolution and the civil war.
And as Marx believed, socialism had to be implanted in an industrial nation, not a backward one like Russia. It had to evolve after capitalism, a stage of which Russia never experienced before. Russia's industry was still almost completely agricultural consisting of not proletariat but peasants.


And hey, I can name hundred examples of how capitalism has failed. So, again I ask, when has your Utopian capitalism been successful without the creation of a state?

[Die Rote Fahne]

I would like to add.

Every nation where a communist revolution had occurred, was better off than what was before the revolution.

[LeftSideDown]

I would just like to add that I could make everybody rich by killing everyone but Bill Gates.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I would just like to add that I could make everybody rich by killing everyone but Bill Gates.

Bad analogy.

[#FF0000]

So let me see if i got you all right here. Cuba is a thriving paradise where the infrastructure and cars are older than my mom.

And are still better than much of the infrastructure in Latin America.


Power throughout cuba is turned on and off to preserve power.

Compared to other Latin American countries where electricity is even more scarce?


The reason people aren't below the poverty level is b/c the average person is so poor that in interviews they all say it ain't easy living in cuba. Sounds like a FUCKING great place.

I don't think you know how statistics work.


But you have to see that almost nobody in cuba wants to live under this ridiculous regime run by murders.

Uh huh.


The reason there hasn't been a revolution is b/c cubans probably don't see that one could happen. They have lived their lives under fuck nut castro for almost 50 years so they don't see an alternative. And don't blame this on the collapse of the ussr, it was around roughly 40 years with cuba and everything in cuba is fucking 50 years old. It sucks there and the new generation there is growing restless and for all of you to defend monstrous regime as castro's is spitting in the cuban peoples face. We all live in the U.S. or the U.K. or some other western nation so the facts of cuba we have are those that are given to us. The fact of the matter is that cubans should have self determination over their island. Young cubans will eventually take the reigns and demand change and you will dismiss them like the ayatollah dismissed the iranian revolutionaries.

Uh huh.


And another thing, the only argument offered to me is that they have healthcare and a low infant mortality rate and the no one is homeless. Well first and foremost the money to pay for everybody's health care comes from stealing aka taxes. Not many people can support kids on their salaries so people aren't having many leading to the low amount of infant deaths. No one is homeless probably b/c a cuban home consists of about 4 walls a leaky ceiling and a picture of castro or che on the wall, that is of course unless you are part of the upper caste of government officials b/c they probably are well off.

I like how you don't make arguments and just make claims that amount to conjecture. I also like that you literally just argued like this:

Someone: "There is no homelessness in Cuba."
You: "YEAH BUT I BET THE HOUSES ARE SHITTY".











You're an idiot.

[#FF0000]

God your ridiculous. The East India Trading Company was a state sponsored monopoly that england used to commercially control parts of the world. In no way does a free market require a state. It is easy to see this everyday. Individuals act within the free market without any intervention and at the end of the day we are still alive.

My reasoning is quite correct. State intervention will lead to monopolies. Corporations grow and use the state to subvert the free market by getting regulations and pointless laws passed which hurt starting businesses and destroys competition and killing entrepreneurship. And as i have said before, one reason i am against a state is b/c they can be coerced by corporate interests. The fact that a state and corporations exist beside each other will lead to both using each other for the sake of power, which is why i am against both.

If the state is so good for these massive companies then what in the world would keep a bunch of businesses in a small little geographic area from banding together as some kind of cartel and effectively becoming a state?

[Nolan]

Someone: "There is no homelessness in Cuba."
You: "YEAH BUT I BET THE HOUSES ARE SHITTY".

This is a good analogy. Whenever I discuss some of the accomplishments of Cuba, they always move the goalposts by a hailstorm of "yeah buts."

[Jacobinist]

"There is no homelessness in Cuba" - Love

Not to be a dick or support the idiot CA, but I saw homeless people in Cuba. I wont go into whether they chose to be homeless (because I dont know) but you can bet your left testicle that Cuba has panhandlers and homeless people too.

[#FF0000]

"There is no homelessness in Cuba" - Love

Not to be a dick or support the idiot CA, but I saw homeless people in Cuba. I wont go into whether they chose to be homeless (because I dont know) but you can bet your left testicle that Cuba has panhandlers and homeless people too.

Doesn't really surprise me. Having absolutely no homelessness is sort of inconceivable to me.

[Boru]

I'm fairly sure Cuba uses the Euro now for external purposes.
A ridiculous number of countries have begun to switch to the Euro for those sorts of purposes.

Europe will be the new US for that reason, unless China suddenly dropped its current currency policies..

[Bud Struggle]

I'm fairly sure Cuba uses the Euro now for external purposes.
A ridiculous number of countries have begun to switch to the Euro for those sorts of purposes.

Europe will be the new US for that reason, unless China suddenly dropped its current currency policies..

The dollar is still king of Cuba. For that matter: the $10 bill (crisp and new) is king of Russia.

[Jacobinist]

Actually, Cuba transitioned to the Euro way back in '99. This is kind of old news, but it's a good point to bring up.

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/economy/euro2.htm