Zionists and Yankees

[The Red Panther Party]

I want to raise a huge contradiction that alot of marxists ignore.

We as Communists rightfully opose zionism and demand that isreal is desolved and palestine is reunited under the governance of palestinians.

Yet we dont demand the united states be desolved and given backto the native Inhabitants of North America.
I think this shows an underlying eurocentric attitude and somewhat deeply hidden white superiority complex in us white european, and european colonial settlers in North America.

Just as zionism has dome its best to wipe the palestinian culture off the face of the earth, the US imperialists have tried to do the same to the native Americans, yet we dont decry the USA as a illegitimate state, or if we do we say, its too late now, well some say that about palestine too.
The same goes for ireland, we call the loyalists settlers who have no right to keep NI part of the UK, so i think we should say that European/ north americans are colonial settlers and have no claim to the land.

Do you agree or not

[mykittyhasaboner]

Yet we dont demand the united states be desolved and given backto the native Inhabitants of North America.

There is no more significant population of Native Americans to "give it back" to....

[The Red Panther Party]

Even if there was only 10 left, the point is we cant support or uphold imperialism, and America is a illegitimate imperialist state, and anyone who is against isreal surelymust be against the continuation of the USA, RIGHT?

[FreeFocus]

What you say is true, although it is difficult to "give" land back to a decimated population. What socialists should support is building Native strength where a land base already exists, and supporting Native reclamations where they pop up.

Nonetheless, again, you are of course correct that this is a result of a Eurocentric attitude, and it manifests itself on RevLeft quite often. Some people have even argued that the US is not a settler state, or has ceased to be a settler state (how the hell something ceases to be what it is without, well, not existing anymore is beyond me)..

This all applies to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc, as well. One of the most important tasks of this century is making sure the world doesn't allow another genocide/ethnic cleansing to be carried out in full for the maintenance of another settler state, Israel. Don't let the crimes perpetrated in North America rear their head again in Palestine.

[RedScare]

There isn't a significant population to give it back to. I mean, most of the tribes who lived on the Eastern Coast of the United States were completely destroyed. What we should do is support organizations such as the American Indian Movement. I mean, the Tutelo and Saponi tribes used to live in the area that I live, but there's very few of them left, and they're all in Oklahoma now.

[Robocommie]

It's not fair to say that there isn't a significant population to give it back to, it's just that that population has become a very negligible minority and are very very scattered.

Also, there's been a lot of intermarrying and so the population has become somewhat diffuse throughout the US.

It's impractical to try and undo the horrible damage done during the US expansion into Native American lands, instead, attempts should be made to promote tribal autonomy, and tribal wealth. There are regions, especially in the Southwest, where the tribes are relatively strong and even dominate certain areas demographically.

Really, to sum up, what this country needs to start doing is stop treating Indians like historical artifacts of a bygone age, and start actually listening to what they want and start working to grant their demands.

[The Ghost of Revolutions]

Where are all the 300 million settlers going to be re-located to? I get what your saying but as pointed out before alot of the natives have been wiped out already leaving only a couple millions left compared to 200 million when europeans started coming to america.

[FreeFocus]

It's not fair to say that there isn't a significant population to give it back to, it's just that that population has become a very negligible minority and are very very scattered.

Also, there's been a lot of intermarrying and so the population has become somewhat diffuse throughout the US.

It's impractical to try and undo the horrible damage done during the US expansion into Native American lands, instead, attempts should be made to promote tribal autonomy, and tribal wealth. There are regions, especially in the Southwest, where the tribes are relatively strong and even dominate certain areas demographically.

Really, to sum up, what this country needs to start doing is stop treating Indians like historical artifacts of a bygone age, and start actually listening to what they want and start working to grant their demands.

In order to promote autonomy, Native communities need to do work outside of the tribal council/band council (in Canada) paradigm, because these institutions reinforce imperialism and are basically akin to puppet regimes. Instead of mimicking settler institutions and economic systems (capitalism), Native communities need to embrace a program that emphasizes cultural revitalization and socialism.

There are capitalists and sell-outs in Indian Country, too. For example, a ton of Natives harp on workers trying to unionize in the casinos, claiming that unionization laws can't apply because they violate tribal sovereignty. Get the fuck out of here. Most casino profits don't benefit people who live on the reservation, they benefit the casino owners and outside capitalists.

[The Red Panther Party]

Well INLA dont want to kick the settlers out, they just want the irish to have power, not some settlers who give power over to imperialists.
European setlers in America could stay, but all institutions made by the imperialist settlers should be disabled and native americans should be allowed their own flag culture, national anthem, christianity shouldnt be the state religeon, i will makea thread in a few weeks giving an outline on what should happen along the lines of creating the new native american nation, and non of that reservation shit, thats a poor excuse for reperations.

[Robocommie]

In order to promote autonomy, Native communities need to do work outside of the tribal council/band council (in Canada) paradigm, because these institutions reinforce imperialism and are basically akin to puppet regimes. Instead of mimicking settler institutions and economic systems (capitalism), Native communities need to embrace a program that emphasizes cultural revitalization and socialism.

There are capitalists and sell-outs in Indian Country, too. For example, a ton of Natives harp on workers trying to unionize in the casinos, claiming that unionization laws can't apply because they violate tribal sovereignty. Get the fuck out of here. Most casino profits don't benefit people who live on the reservation, they benefit the casino owners and outside capitalists.

Haha, wait, are you going to argue that what they need is socialism? Here, on this board of all places?!? ;)

No but of course I agree, and you're absolutely right about all of that. In fact I remember hearing from a college professor of mine some years ago that the casinos were creating an sort of "Indian mafia" in some places. And let's be honest, we can debate the ethics and morals of gambling somewhere else, but I'm pretty sure these gaudy fucking casinos are really just demeaning.

However, I felt that the proviso about socialism went without saying. :)

[blake 3:17]

There is no more significant population of Native Americans to "give it back" to....

Yuck! So props go to those who carry out the most complete genocide?


We as Communists rightfully opose zionism and demand that isreal is desolved and palestine is reunited under the governance of palestinians.

Yet we dont demand the united states be desolved and given backto the native Inhabitants of North America.

I think this shows an underlying eurocentric attitude and somewhat deeply hidden white superiority complex in us white european, and european colonial settlers in North America.


Absolutely. Opposing colonialism in the Americas goes hand in hand with opposing colonialism in the Middle East. Israeli apartheid is essentially modeled on the Canadian approach to its indigenous peoples -- make them go away, deprive them of culture and means of life, and steal their land.

Many of us here are involved in both Aboriginal and Palestinian solidarity work and the communities do support each other.

[ZombieGrits]

I think it's kind of a misconception to compare the current situation of Native Americans to the current situation of Palestinians...

I agree with Robocommie that what Americans need now is a revitalization of individual tribal cultures (maybe with the omission of a few unsavoury reactionary bits), instead of the fabricated catch-all "Indian culture" that they sell at casinos and pueblo gift shops

EDIT: and by Americans I mean American Indians

[Robocommie]

Though I want to stress that what I think Native Americans really genuinely need is for Native Americans to decide for themselves what they really need. Other people have been deciding that for them for centuries, and that in fact is the problem.

[The Red Panther Party]

What they need is their land back, their culture back, but most of all they need to help fight capitalism with all of us commies on revleft :)

[ZombieGrits]

but most of all they need to help fight capitalism with all of us commies on revleft :)
and that is critical :D

But damn Robocommie I guess you're right again. I don't have any business deciding what Indians need; though I think I have the right to make a polite suggestion when the Indians themselves aren't making much progress...

[The Red Panther Party]

well, i support palestinian libertion, even if Hamas or some reactionary group take charge, i also support native american liberation even if NA cappies take control.

Once imperialism was defeated, i would then support revolutionaries in overthrowing the new national bourgesie, so thats my take on it

[cb9's_unity]

well, i support palestinian libertion, even if Hamas or some reactionary group take charge, i also support native american liberation even if NA cappies take control.

Once imperialism was defeated, i would then support revolutionaries in overthrowing the new national bourgesie, so thats my take on it

I have to say i'm somewhat confused at what your saying. Would you be ok with the idea that at some point a tiny native american capitalist class would be ruling over the American working class? I can not possibly see the point of arguing for something so absurd and so unlikely (by unlikely I mean impossible).

If the Native Americans want to stop being oppressed they shouldn't get behind their capitalist class, they should ally with the rest of the American working class. I don't really mind 'national liberation' if it serves a practical purpose and will actually stop oppression, but fuck giving Native American capitalists power simply out of principle.

[The Red Panther Party]

so you support national liberation for whites and light browns but not people of darker skin is what your saying.

You dont want the natives to be given back their land and country because to give them it back would mean in your subconcious superior whites having to live under an inferior peoples.

[Palingenisis]

If the Native Americans want to stop being oppressed they shouldn't get behind their capitalist class, they should ally with the rest of the American working class. I don't really mind 'national liberation' if it serves a practical purpose and will actually stop oppression, but fuck giving Native American capitalists power simply out of principle.


I dont know enough about the social realities of First Nations people trapped inside US borders but I know enough to realise that they are not "American" in the sense that you probably mean it (I take it you werent refering to Brazilians, Peruavians, etc but to USAans?)...They are an oppressed nation and entitled to national self-determination...Your business is solidarity with them and not preaching to them (I think they have suffered enough of that from the invader).

[cb9's_unity]

so you support national liberation for whites and light browns but not people of darker skin is what your saying.

You dont want the natives to be given back their land and country because to give them it back would mean in your subconcious superior whites having to live under an inferior peoples.

No, I'm not a racist. However you might be.

Unlike you I don't think any race should be forced to live under any other race. The way the Native Americans have been treated is awful and the way they are treated now is awful. However that doesn't mean that they now get to rule over me. That's because I don't believe I should have to pay the debt of what others of my race have done, especially when their of a different class than me. I don't believe race trumps class, you apparently do.

All I can do today is offer my hand as part of the working class to other people in the working class, regardless of their race. Racial barriers need to be ripped down instead of reinforced (you are essentially calling for official state racism). Again we need to forget race and unite as a class.

[Robocommie]

No, I'm not a racist. However you might be.

Unlike you I don't think any race should be forced to live under any other race. The way the Native Americans have been treated is awful and the way they are treated now is awful. However that doesn't mean that they now get to rule over me. That's because I don't believe I should have to pay the debt of what others of my race have done, especially when their of a different class than me. I don't believe race trumps class, you apparently do.


I just want to point out to both you and Fred Hampton that this argument is becoming silly because I really don't think there's a snowball's chance in Hell of there being some kind of Lakota Pinochet ruling the country with an iron fist.

[cb9's_unity]

I dont know enough about the social realities of First Nations people trapped inside US borders but I know enough to realise that they are not "American" in the sense that you probably mean it (I take it you werent refering to Brazilians, Peruavians, etc but to USAans?)...They are an oppressed nation and entitled to national self-determination...Your business is solidarity with them and not preaching to them (I think they have suffered enough of that from the invader).

How exactly am I preaching to them? Am I seriously not supposed to argue against having their working class rule against me?

And tell me what other term I am supposed to use for those living in America with immigrant ancestors. American is the official term for those who have citizenship in the USA. If you could let me know of a neutral word for united states citizens that would be wonderful.

But my point is that if they really believe that a good first step for them would be to completely disassociate from the U.S.A then I'll support them. However I am somewhat less enthusiastic about letting them subjugate white, black, and hispanic workers who are also exploited and happen to be living on land that belonged to the Native Americans a century or two ago.

The Native Americans shouldn't be subjugating other members of the working class, but instead actually working with them to destroy capitalism.

[cb9's_unity]

I just want to point out to both you and Fred Hampton that this argument is becoming silly because I really don't think there's a snowball's chance in Hell of there being some kind of Lakota Pinochet ruling the country with an iron fist.

You may want to note my first post in this thread where I talk about the impossibility of land actually being given back to the Native Americans.

I would love to hear how Fred would propose giving land back to the American tribes. I wonder if he expects the white, black, and hispanic workers to support falling under Native American capitalist rule.

[gorillafuck]

Don't let the crimes perpetrated in North America rear their head again in Palestine.
This is the key thing here, in my opinion. The Native population in the USA and Canada have been almost entirely wiped out, but in Palestine they have not wiped out and are trying to stand strong. That is why we focus on Palestine so much.

The Native population in North America is too small and scattered to "give the US/Canada back to". Though it's definitely good to lend solidarity to Native empowerment groups and communities and support them in taking back their land. And I don't think that this could really be achieved separated from fighting for a socialist society.

[FreeFocus]

What a ridiculous little debate that has spawned. It's absurd to support a brown-skinned capitalist just because he's brown-skinned. I mean, really? If anything, I'd support them less, because he'd just be selling out, spitting upon his culture and reinforcing Eurocentric institutions and ways of life.

A Native capitalist shouldn't be supported. At all. Period.

[The Red Panther Party]

No, I'm not a racist. However you might be.

Unlike you I don't think any race should be forced to live under any other race. The way the Native Americans have been treated is awful and the way they are treated now is awful. However that doesn't mean that they now get to rule over me. That's because I don't believe I should have to pay the debt of what others of my race have done, especially when their of a different class than me. I don't believe race trumps class, you apparently do.

All I can do today is offer my hand as part of the working class to other people in the working class, regardless of their race. Racial barriers need to be ripped down instead of reinforced (you are essentially calling for official state racism). Again we need to forget race and unite as a class.

So using this terminology, why should the white zionists be forced out for what other whites did to the palestinians over 50 years ago....... no it aint about race its about fighing imperialism

[FreeFocus]

I don't think any sane or humanistic leftist calls for removing Israelis/Jews from Palestine. We talk about dismantling the state and power structure, not removing the entire population. The same approach applies for North America.

[The Red Panther Party]

thats what im saying, the point i was making is the reason we oppose zionism isnt because thay are white, and the reason we support the native americans isnt because they are not white, race has nothing to do with it, i oppose the state of NI, yet i dont want all settlers thrown out of Eire, they can stay but must accept irelands right to be free of british imperialism

[FreeFocus]

thats what im saying, the point i was making is the reason we oppose zionism isnt because thay are white, and the reason we support the native americans isnt because they are not white, race has nothing to do with it, i oppose the state of NI, yet i dont want all settlers thrown out of Eire, they can stay but must accept irelands right to be free of british imperialism

OK, I understand this.

[cb9's_unity]

So using this terminology, why should the white zionists be forced out for white other whites did to the palestinians over 50 years ago....... no it aint about race its about fighing imperialism

I don't necessarily think that today whites in Israel should be forced out of the land. However they absolutely need to stop oppressing Palestine. They need to allow them to create their own state, stop all settlement building, and allow Palestine to have the capital it wants (i'm no expert on the issue, so I'm sure there are other Palestinian demands that Israel should give into).

I don't support racist states. That means if an ethnicity wants to create a new state to protect themselves from an oppressive ethnicity (which I essentially define as a bourgeoisie which has the support of its working class to oppress another ethnicity) then I support that effort, people have the right to resist active oppression. However I don't believe in a state where one race can rule over another as 'payback' for imperialism that happened a few generations ago.

Fighting imperialism, or 'evening the score' racially, isn't more important than uniting the working classes. Right now I don't think its likely that the Palestinian and Israeli working classes will unite to overthrow the bourgeoisie. Thus I can understand how the Palestinians would unite with their bourgeoisie to create their own state to stop at least some Israeli oppression. However giving the Native Americans back their original lands is not only never going to happen but it would be detrimental to the non-native working class.

[FreeFocus]

A two-state solution in Palestine is impossible, given Israeli settlements that have turned the West Bank into swiss cheese. Palestinians, at this point, have Bantustans, which were actually modeled on reservations. The only true solution in Palestine is the one-state solution, because even if a Palestinian state were established, Israel would never find itself bound to respect it, and would continue feeding its expansionist nature. Just as Israel crosses the border into Gaza or the West Bank whenever it feels like it, it would do the same with any sort of a "recognized" Palestinian state. Just consider the fact that Israel places the pre-condition of Palestine being demilitarized.

[The Red Panther Party]

BTW im not acting as if the people born hundreds of years after the invasion of north America are hereditary guilty, because they are not, but if they dont denounce their settler position and dont advocate for the destruction of the european imperialist government, then at best they are lumpen, at worst they are class enemies.

[Rusty Shackleford]

this is probably worth a looksee.
http://www.republicoflakotah.com/

i may visit or try to help them some time, right now i cant because of financial issues and school.

[cb9's_unity]

A two-state solution in Palestine is impossible, given Israeli settlements that have turned the West Bank into swiss cheese. Palestinians, at this point, have Bantustans, which were actually modeled on reservations. The only true solution in Palestine is the one-state solution, because even if a Palestinian state were established, Israel would never find itself bound to respect it, and would continue feeding its expansionist nature. Just as Israel crosses the border into Gaza or the West Bank whenever it feels like it, it would do the same with any sort of a "recognized" Palestinian state. Just consider the fact that Israel places the pre-condition of Palestine being demilitarized.

I guess I'll have to do more research. My impression has always been that a two state solution is far more immediately likely than a one state solution. Is there any real expectation that the Palestinian and Israeli working classes will unite, or is that just a hope for the future.

I know that at least officially the U.S calls for a two state solution. Israels blatant racism and imperialism can only be covered by the mainstream media with partial success and doesn't exactly help the U.S with relations with other Arab country's. For even just this reason, it seems that it is more likely that the Palestinians may eventually get their own country. A major power is supporting (even if very passively) the two state solution in order to give the U.S a major PR boost. There is no major force supporting a favorable one state solution. (if this whole paragraph is full of shit please critique me, more discussion on this issue would help me).

If the two state solution was likely would you support it?

[jake williams]

I don't think any sane or humanistic leftist calls for removing Israelis/Jews from Palestine. We talk about dismantling the state and power structure, not removing the entire population. The same approach applies for North America.
That's exactly it. We need fair democratic control of everywhere, in Palestine and in Canada/the US. In Palestine, this would be in effect "giving the land back", without necessarily having ethinc cleansing of Jews, which I think is absolutely the wrong thing to do, as it would be in North America. Much more tragically very little such "giving back" could occur in North America through these processes, but we should do what we can.

[The Red Panther Party]

giving back dosent mean forcing settlers out, though it would be understandable for say, irish republicans to want british loyalists to fuck off back to england and scotland, but what we really mean when we say give back is the settlers renounce any claims they have on land governance and domination of the native class by the invaders

[cb9's_unity]

giving back dosent mean forcing settlers out, though it would be understandable for say, irish republicans to want british loyalists to fuck off back to england and scotland, but what we really mean when we say give back is the settlers renounce any claims they have on land governance and domination of the native class by the invaders

How is this any different than what essentially every communist is already arguing for?

We don't think the Native Americans should be dominated anymore and we believe in class consciousness. What exactly are you arguing for beyond this?

[The Red Panther Party]

Because most communists say palestinians have the right to wage a war of national liberation, yet the Native Americans dont, dont you see the eurocentric racist, down right hegemonic underlying problem with this, because alot of you are living in the usa you wouldnt support natives taking up arms for the natives there, yet you do in palestine

[Robocommie]

You may want to note my first post in this thread where I talk about the impossibility of land actually being given back to the Native Americans.

I would love to hear how Fred would propose giving land back to the American tribes. I wonder if he expects the white, black, and hispanic workers to support falling under Native American capitalist rule.

Then what's the point of arguing about it?

Anyway, land, in general sense? That's not impossible at all. Look at Nunavut. All the land? No.

[cb9's_unity]

Because most communists say palestinians have the right to wage a war of national liberation, yet the Native Americans dont, dont you see the eurocentric racist, down right hegemonic underlying problem with this, because alot of you are living in the usa you wouldnt support natives taking up arms for the natives there, yet you do in palestine

Are Native Americans calling for war against the U.S government?

I wasn't aware that they were and that U.S communist party's were saying they don't have the right to. In a purely tactical view violence by the NA against the U.S government wouldn't lead to national liberation but would far more likely end up destroying all remaining native land rights.

[Robocommie]

Because most communists say palestinians have the right to wage a war of national liberation, yet the Native Americans dont, dont you see the eurocentric racist, down right hegemonic underlying problem with this, because alot of you are living in the usa you wouldnt support natives taking up arms for the natives there, yet you do in palestine

On the contrary, I highly support Native American militants, and I'm a big supporter of the AIM. But listen - the situation in Palestine is not analogous to the situation in the United States. Once, 150 years ago, it was. But now, it's not. The relative numbers of Native Americans who identify with their tribal identities strong enough to fight for them are extremely marginalized compared to the rest of the nation.

There's not going to be a Ghost Dance, man.

[Robocommie]

Are Native Americans calling for war against the U.S government?

I wasn't aware that they were and that U.S communist party's were saying they don't have the right to. In a purely tactical view violence by the NA against the U.S government wouldn't lead to national liberation but would far more likely end up destroying all remaining native land rights.

And get a lot of good people killed for no good reason.

[cb9's_unity]

Then what's the point of arguing about it?

Anyway, land, in general sense? That's not impossible at all. Look at Nunavut. All the land? No.

I could argue that tomorrow all the Asian country's should have white heads of government and heads of state. That is never going to happen but it still should be condemned as racist.

And if NA want that piece of territory they should move their and claim it as their territory. As long as workers of other ethnicity's aren't treated as second class citizens in that country then their shouldn't be a problem (from the socialist point of view, i'm sure the capitalist government would object).

[blake 3:17]

I find the demographic/census stats not all that useful. Native peoples in the Americas and the Palestinians have been treated as less than dirt. A simple materialist analysis does not explore the issues of cultural violence and genocide.

From the Toronto Star:

Sherry Fobister, a 31-year-old mother of two living Grassy Narrows, told the Toronto Star Mondaythat her daughter Catherine, 10, has been diagnosed as suffering from mercury poisoning and her youngest child Cashis, two, is being watched closely by a pediatrician.

“Catherine has three benign brain cysts, she has seizures, speech problems, cognitive problems,” Fobister said, adding that when Cashis was a newborn he suffered seizures.

Fobister said she has eaten walleye or pickerel fish from the river as long as she can remember because no one has ever told her otherwise.

“It is my favourite dish,” said Fobister, who has numbness in her feet and hands but when tested for mercury fell slightly short of being compensated.

The 40th anniversary will be marked in Toronto with the release of the translated results of Harada’s 2004 return to the two reserves and Sone said the conclusion is that Health Canada safety guidelines are too low to protect people from the cumulative long-term health impacts of low level mercury exposure.


Source: http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/790616--40-years-on-reserve-mercury-poisonings-worse?bn=1



Gaza: When children's day is hosted around the world, the average child has the opportunity to express their youthfulness through arts and crafts, games, and other fun activities, but in the Palestinian territories, this day is bitter sweet.
For Palestinian children, who have been forced to grow up too fast, this day is more about forgetting their situation than enjoying their youth.

Despite the fact that April 5 was Palestinian Children's Day, their reality is difficult to change, even for just a day. Many children are orphans or homeless, are unable to find necessary health care or education, are sons of prisoners or prisoners themselves in Israeli jails.

In order to address the unique challenges facing the children of Palestine, particularly in Gaza, different activities were held that helped them deal with the various ways they are suffering, and also to allow them a bit of fun.

Hundreds of children of prisoners worked on a "Candles of Freedom" project for Palestinian Children's Day, which was arranged by the Popular Committee Against the Siege and the National Committee in Support of the Prisoners.

Source: http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/activity-day-offers-break-for-palestinian-children-1.608789



The Palestinian center for the defense of prisoners said on Monday that there are still 340 Palestinian children in Israeli jails exposed to many deliberate violations against their basic rights.

In a statement issued on the occasion of the Palestinian child day, the center highlighted that the Palestinian children in Israeli jails are exposed to unbelievable violations of their rights which are guaranteed by international laws and conventions.

Source: http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=24057

Injustice is injustice.

[chegitz guevara]

The difference between Palestine and America is, the people from whom Palestine was taken are literally still alive, as are their children and grand children. For them, Palestine isn't something that was taken from their ancestors, it was something taken from them, or their parents or grand parents, whom they personally know.

For the American Indians, the land theft is something that happened well over one hundred years ago. Few people are alive today that remember individuals who were involved in that struggle. They have no personal connection to the stolen land, religious bullshit aside.

As important, where do the new native inhabitants go? The vast majority of Americans are a hybrid people, ethnically and genetically. Our ancestry comes from many different places, I'm a 1/4 Italian, 1/6 Irish, about 1/3rd English, but my feelings are for Ireland and Italy, though I speak the language of neither country (Gaelic, not English). Where do I go? Or do I have to move to Canada, because one of my ancestors was a Metis from Montreal?

Where do Black people move? On average, Black Americans are of 1/3rd European ancestry? Do they move to North Africa to be close to Europe and Subsaharan Africa?

American cannot be given back without creating a greater historical crime than was committed to the American Indians. None of the people alive today are responsible for the American Indian genocide. There are hundreds of thousands of Israelis still around who are war criminals and land thieves.

Are you prepared to turn over England to the Welsh and get the fuck out?

[The Red Panther Party]

Ireland has been fighting for over 800 years, no irishman has lived for that long yet they are still fighting, so what dont you support irish liberation struggles ?

I guess time makes imperialism ok huh

[The Red Panther Party]

Also england has never been part of whales, Ireland scotland and wales are classed as aborigonies, Englands first decendants were from the basque region, after england was formed it became dominant and made ireland its first colony and forced scotland and whales to partake in the union, i support independance for all, yet england hasnt massacred them and renamed their land and such so wtf would england become part of wales lmao :)

[chegitz guevara]

Also england has never been part of whales, Ireland scotland and wales are classed as aborigonies, Englands first decendants were from the basque region, after england was formed it became dominant and made ireland its first colony and forced scotland and whales to partake in the union, i support independance for all, yet england hasnt massacred them and renamed their land and such so wtf would england become part of wales lmao :)

The English are Germans and Danes. The Welsh are the descendants of the Romano-Britons.

[chegitz guevara]

Ireland has been fighting for over 800 years, no irishman has lived for that long yet they are still fighting, so what dont you support irish liberation struggles ?

I guess time makes imperialism ok huh

Yes, time does make imperialism okay. Or do you really support driving the Japanese out of Japan, the Chinese out of China, the Indians out of America (they took it over from a previous group), the Turks out of Turk, the Huns out of Hungary, you get the idea.

At some point, a line has to be drawn, and it will be arbitrary. I think the most reasonable line is living memory. If no one alive remembers someone who was alive during the conquest, it's done, So, roughly, 150 years and you get away with it. If you die before getting caught for committing murder, you get away with it.

As for Northern Ireland, the Protestants are descended from Scots, who are originally from Ireland, they have a right to be there according to your flawed logic.

[The Red Panther Party]

well99 percent of communists support the IRA INLA and their island has long been under imperialism, dont you support them, also i dont want settlers driven out, they can stay but must accept the natives as the ones who have claim to

Also most natives around the world wernt driven out by imperialism they were simply overpopulated by immigrants who became the majority, this is different from imperialism

[Palingenisis]

As for Northern Ireland, the Protestants are descended from Scots, who are originally from Ireland, they have a right to be there according to your flawed logic.

The term "Northern Ireland" is an Imperialist one implying support for the occupation...The correct term is "occupied six counties" or the "occupied north-east".

Secondly the Irish Republican movement was founded mainly by Protestants from Ulster. Also most of the "Protestant" population cant really be called "settlers"...For instance the counties of Antrim and Down which are mainly "Protestant" were never part of the plantation. We are talking more about refugees who bought land and settled a short distance across the sea than "planters" or "settlers" in most cases.

Republican Socialism has and always will reject sectarianism from any quarter.

[chegitz guevara]

You're missing the point. Yes, I support the Irish independence struggle, and have my whole life. I was fuckin' raised on it. Irish rebel songs are my blood. It's probably why I'm a commie.

But that's not the point. I was pointing out his logic was flawed.

[Robocommie]

The English are Germans and Danes. The Welsh are the descendants of the Romano-Britons.

There's actually genetic evidence to suggest the Angles and Saxons also intermarried with the Romano-Britons when they came, instead of simply driving them back into Wales and Cornwall.

Frankly, there is a very dangerous line being followed by Fred Hampton, I feel obligated to say. This notion of a genetic or ethnic claim to territory is very frequently a problematic one, because it relies on notions of ethnic purity and an unbroken line of cultural succession. I mean hey, we're now starting to talk about the Migration Period. I'd like to point out that the "Franks" that made France what it is today, culturally, only arrived in the region in the late Roman era. And likewise, the Scottish, as has been mentioned, conquered Scotland from the Picts. They're descended from an Irish tribe, the Scotti. Lowland Scots oftentimes have Anglo-Saxon ancestry and cultural influence, are they "less" Scottish than the Highlands Scots?

If you see where I'm going with this, this kind of thinking often leads to really ugly spells of ethnic nationalism and revanchism.

[Palingenisis]

Okay fair enough...The second point was aimed at him and not at you...He seems to have a simplistic borderline sectarian view of the divisions in the occupied six counties..I should have made that clear.

[chegitz guevara]

If you see where I'm going with this, this kind of thinking often leads to really ugly spells of ethnic nationalism and revanchism.

Exactly!

[Robocommie]

Exactly!

Further, I should elaborate that this kind of mentality, that ethnicity gives claim to land because of it's historical association, is in fact one of the primariy basis' of Zionism itself. Palestine was one the kingdom of Judeah, therefore the argument is it should belong to the Jews, and that Israeli settlers are merely "returning" to land when they themselves have never in fact dwelt there prior.

That said, it's extremely tempting to want to support this in some cases. After all, to some extent, is this not what we support the Palestinian cause for? That the Palestinians have a right to return to land from which they were expelled in 1948? Are we honestly going to stop arguing for the right of return of Palestinian refugees in a generation or two, when the people who were actually expelled have all died?

I don't really like the idea of drawing an arbitrary line in history, where from this point damage done to a people is over and done with, where historical injustices have a "statute of limitations" after which they cease to be relevant. Slavery, for an example, has never ceased to be relevant as a source of the current miserable material conditions facing many African-Americans, even though it was theoretically abolished in 1865.

Rather, I think what is necessary is to promote equality of opportunity, and cultural autonomy. In the case of Native Americans, give them reparations, much like reparations should be made to the African-American community for slavery. But there's no need to call for "giving the land back" except in the sense of land reform. For one, it's simply in no way practical, for two, it's simply asking for a government defined by ethnicity, as opposed to a government defined by demographical representation.

[Raúl Duke]

If you see where I'm going with this, this kind of thinking often leads to really ugly spells of ethnic nationalism and revanchism.I've actually noted that very early on with this thread.

That's the issue at stake, all this "settler state" kind of arguments relates back to these kinds of things.

The thing is, it's probably unrealistic to think that the "settlers" are just going to go away (or "go home") and disappear. The issue of Israel and Palestine is not that there's a bunch of "Jewish settlers" have arrived but the fact that they've established a state that actively discriminates and greatly abuses against one ethnic group (non-Jewish Palestinians) over the other (which just happen to be recent arrivals). This is why the apartheid state of Israel needs to end in favor of a non-discriminatory Palestine.

[danyboy27]

the land dont belong to a particular ethnicity, it belong to the people, plain and simple.

palestine/israel belong to their working class has a whole.
Canada/us belong to the working class living there, regardless of their race, gender and sex.

[Robocommie]

I've actually noted that very early on with this thread.

That's the issue at stake, all this "settler state" kind of arguments relates back to these kinds of things.

The thing is, it's probably unrealistic to think that the "settlers" are just going to go away (or "go home") and disappear. The issue of Israel and Palestine is not that there's a bunch of "Jewish settlers" have arrived but the fact that they've established a state that actively discriminates and greatly abuses against one ethnic group (non-Jewish Palestinians) over the other (which just happen to be recent arrivals). This is why the apartheid state of Israel needs to end in favor of a non-discriminatory Palestine.

I think the thing is, if you look at the great damage done to the Palestinians, as an example, then it's completely understandable to feel that it would've been better if the settlers had not come by and pushed people out of their homes and fucked up people's lives, as happened in 1948, just like the same should never have been done in the Americas by all the European colonies. But the thing is, it happened, tragic as it is, and we can't fix things by trying to "undo" history by going back to some kind of idealized ethnic state.

It's funny we should be talking about this right now, as I'm taking a class on Middle East history, and my professor is a Palestinian who has been lately covering the formation of Israel and the Palestinian refugees that resulted from it.