2 reporters Killed - footage released today by WikiLeaks

[Dean]

http://collateralmurder.com/

I thought this was very interesting - as we know, the US has been threatening wikiLeaks not to release this.

AJE Blog: WikiLeaks vs the Pentagon (http://blogs.aljazeera.net/americas/2010/04/05/wikileaks-vs-pentagon)

US Rules of engagement for August 2007 (time of shooting) (http://file.wikileaks.org/file/rules_of_engagement.pdf)

Reuters blog on the incident (http://www.reuterslink.org/news/Memorial.htm)

Of course, these kinds of indiscriminate attacks are not uncommon:
James Miller, who died at IDF hands while making a documentary on Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_%28filmmaker%29)

BBC Bias on Palestine: Reuters cameraman killed by IDF shell (http://www.pacificfreepress.com/news/1/2523-the-bbc-bias-on-palestine.html)

Sometimes these attacks are against the media (as in the attack by the US military on the AJE Baghdad Bureau (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/jaz-a09.shtml)) but when not, they just exemplify the indiscriminate attacks on the local population.

EDIT: Updated title because I don't think they were US reporters :-P

[Comrade Gwydion]

Just saw this. Even made a minor appearance on the outspokenly rightwing, yet free, new source I'm often stuck with in the Netherlands, nu.nl

I'm beginning to devellop a liking for wikileaks, even though this is the first leak of them I actually know of. (Even though I knew the site existed some longer)

[Chambered Word]

Science bless Wikileaks. :cool:

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Namir Noor-Eldeen and Saeed Chmagh were Iraqi reporters.

[#FF0000]

So I'm pretty sure I just watched U.S. soldiers unload on a group of unarmed civilians, convinced that they all had invisible AK-47s and RPGs. That accurate?

[Comrade Gwydion]

So I'm pretty sure I just watched U.S. soldiers unload on a group of unarmed civilians, convinced that they all had invisible AK-47s and RPGs. That accurate?

Almost. I think one or two of the 8 (although they weren't really one group) has AK's, dangling behind them in a non-combatant state. Then a guy holding a camera on chest height was somehow 'mistaken' for an rpg, which everyone knows, you operate by holding it in front of your chest....

[Dean]

The mistaken RPG is clearly bullshit. There's no way that was an rpg.

But the aks were definitely there. BUT its fucking Iraq. Nobody walks around without weaponry unless you want to be an easy target of one of the many paramilitary organizations.

The soldier's "itchy trigger fingers" are what really concerned me. But the "shoot mass meetings on sight" order which appears to have been in place at the time, is a disgusting pretext to this attack.

[FreeFocus]

Fucking cowardly pigs. One of them even laughed about "getting" that journalist trying to escape.

[Muzk]

"its their fault for bringing their children into battle"

that part made me vomit

[cb9's_unity]

I can't imagine the excuse they are going to come up with for shooting on the van.

The original crowd at least at a few weapons around (which still isn't a real excuse for the reasons others have posted), but the van was just trying to help a guy who had been shot and was crawling around.

One of the more disturbing aspects is that the audio doesn't sound a whole lot different than what you might hear on COD multiplayer. It really sounds like a game to those guys.

[#FF0000]

Isn't it a warcrime to shoot people who are trying to tend to wounded?

[chegitz guevara]

yes

[NaxalbariZindabad]

I can't imagine the excuse they are going to come up with for shooting on the van.I hope there will be enough media attention and public pressure to get to the situation where the US government has to struggle to make up excuses for this. But do you guys think this is likely to happen? I don't know much about the situation of US media... Is the US corporate media likely to report on this, or let this video stay out of the mainstream because it makes the government look bad?

Is it unrealistic to hope for charges made against the soldiers responsible? It seems so many disgusting events like this have been previously whitewashed in the name of "democracy". :(

[Sasha]

wasnt it already in vietnam that the definition of a vietcong soldier was dead vietnamese. Nothing changed huh...

[Prometheus Unbound]

I've been anticipating this video for over a week now. It's like a video game to these professional killers. Absolutely disgusting, but I wasn't surprised at all.

[Red Commissar]

What disturbs me the most about this is how casually they treat the situation. The part where they congratulate one another on getting the targets, laughing about shooting the windshield, egging on one of the wounded to pick up a non-existent weapon so they could continue shooting.

It at least shows how fucked up the "rules" of engagement are.

[Scary Monster]

The original crowd at least at a few weapons around (which still isn't a real excuse for the reasons others have posted), but the van was just trying to help a guy who had been shot and was crawling around.

No one had weapons. The only two people holding something were the reporters with their equipment. Then when one of em hoisted the camera up, they say it was an RPG, then started shooting.

When i saw this vid this morning I almost teared up because I was so fucking angry. Especially when the red necks were congratulating each other and had no remorse at all for the seriously wounded little kids that they shot with a cannon that is freakin capable of destroying light tanks. Fucking disgusting is all I can say. Isnt it unspeakably frustrating knowing nothing can be done by us right at this moment to stop this bullshit?

[Red Commissar]

What I find more disturbing is that there are people trying to defend the actions of the helicopter pilots.

Many of them are missing the fact though- why did the military cover up the incident in the first place?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

^^^They did the same over the My Lai massacre, in 1968.

[Scary Monster]

What I find more disturbing is that there are people trying to defend the actions of the helicopter pilots.

Many of them are missing the fact though- why did the military cover up the incident in the first place?

I smell Assassination by Apache. Theyve done that before. Even in the first Gulf War, I was watching a documentary on the military-industrial complex called Why We Fight (im sure many of you saw it) that had footage of an Abrams tank firing a shell in a hotel room full of journalists.

[#FF0000]

No one had weapons. The only two people holding something were the reporters with their equipment. Then when one of em hoisted the camera up, they say it was an RPG, then started shooting.

Yeah, it was too thin to be an RPG, and if it was an AK, then he was holding it up at a +90 degree angle from the ground by the stock, which is just a silly way to hold a gun.

Also, there's a 30 minute extended version that shows the same helicopter launching a bunch of hellfire missiles into a building that was either under construction or abandoned. People walk by or into the site, and are killed with three missiles. They say they thought the building was occupied by insurgents, but one casualty was a guy who was just walking by, and wasn't noticed by the champs in the chopper until after the missile was launched.

[CartCollector]

Well here's the way most Americans will learn about this, if they hear about it at all, as I'm guessing most TV channels won't run this as news.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/05/video-appears-forces-firing-unarmed-suspects-baghdad/om/
*****ing about health care is much higher on their agenda than people being killed by the US military.

Anyways, according to America's finest corporate media outlet, the video just "appears" to show US forces killing unarmed people and the US military already apologized for the death of the two Reuters journalists. Which makes me wonder, I wonder how Fox would respond to this if it was their journalists who were killed.

[Robocommie]

I'm surprised Fox News covered this shit at all.

[cska]

I feel like throwing up. :crying: And Americans seriously ask "why do those people hate us". If I'd seen something like that in Iraq, I'd be a terrorist right now.

[Robocommie]

I feel like throwing up. :crying: And Americans seriously ask "why do those people hate us". If I'd seen something like that in Iraq, I'd be a terrorist right now.

Yeah, imagine how people would feel if this shit happened at the hands of the Iraqi Army, or the Iranian Army, or the Turkish Army, or so on and so forth.

"Honest mistake." They'd say. "We tried not to."

"Get the fuck out." we'd say.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

This is sickening. I know war is stressful and the threat of being killed especially when your enemy can be anyone or anywhere could make you especially paranoid, but these guys just sound like they were looking for something, ANYTHING to shoot. Being soldiers you'd think they'd know what an RPG looks like even at a distance like that. When the guy says 'He's got an RPG!', it's too large to be an RPG. At 3:45 one of the guys has something that looks like an RPG but he's carrying it far too casually to be certain and at no point does he rest it on his shoulders.
Guns, I think I can see guns, but those guys could have been the Reporters escort, no respectable news agency would send their guys into a Warzone without adequate protection... protection against small arms anyway, not fucking Gunships.

[CartCollector]

So it seems like the rules of engagement for this situation were 'you have to see some adult Arab looking men carrying guns before you can shoot at them.' This is backed up by how the one soldier says "Come on... just pick up a gun..." to the man trying to get up from the ground. If, like the US officials say, that's what the rules of engagement really are, that's really sick.

[Sasha]

So it seems like the rules of engagement for this situation were 'you have to see some adult Arab looking men carrying guns before you can shoot at them.' This is backed up by how the one soldier says "Come on... just pick up a gun..." to the man trying to get up from the ground. If, like the US officials say, that's what the rules of engagement really are, that's really sick.

why do you think they keep on shooting Afghan and Iraqi goverment soldiers...

[Chambered Word]

23 people and 2 journalists?


"Keep shooting!," yells a U.S. soldier recorded in the chopper radio traffic.
"Oh yeah, look at those dead bastards," responds another.
"Nice!" adds a third.
The two Reuters employees who died were 22-year-old photographer Namir Noor-Eldeen and his 40-year-old assistant Saeed Chmagh. The identities of the other casualties are unknown.
Once the smoke clears from the U.S. attack, one of the Reuters employees appears to be wounded and is crawling away from the scene.
"All you gotta do is pick up a weapon," says a voice aboard one of the Apaches.



This shit makes me sick. Fuck American soldiers and their sense of moral superiority.

And yes, I'm surprised Fox is covering this at all.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

War is Peace.:rolleyes:

Disgusting, not that my opinion is a revelation here.

Similar does seem to happen in all wars though. The root problem here is war. Hence my steadfast refusal to acknowledge the 'revolutionary war is neccessary/inevitable' mantra.

Still, you really have to feel for these unassuming guys that have been killed, and for all of the people who have been in the same situation.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

23 people and 2 journalists?



This shit makes me sick. Fuck American soldiers and their sense of moral superiority.

And yes, I'm surprised Fox is covering this at all.

What I object to most of all is the fact the people of Iraq and Afghistan are treated with not even 1000th of the importance of Westerners. Had the Helicopter actually been brought down by an RPG the mood amongst the majority of these narrow minded right wingers would change. I see it all too often... when an American dies he's a 'Patriot', when an Iraqi dies, he's just another unfortunate casualty of war and you need to 'Get over it'.

Like fuck we do, all humans should be treated with dignity and a degree of compassion, respect and understanding. No amount of patriotic phlegm and narrowminded garbage should cloud the fact that life is totally fucking random, you don't choose where you're born, your parents or your quality of life... just because you happen to have had the superlative good fortune of being born in the West does NOT make you, as a person, automatically superior to the rest of the human race.

[The Vegan Marxist]

This is why I only support troops that choose to not fight for the U.S. imperialists & their agenda of global dominance. I'd rather want them to be martyrs than murderers.

[bricolage]

I have noticed a tendency to reduce this to either one of two things, that those who did the shooting were simply sick individuals, thus isolated cases, or that it is symptomatic of the degenerate nature of America/Western society as a whole, eg. anyone who is American would have done the same. I don't think either work very well and I think you have to look at this more in the way that war has been removed from a style of combat in which you understand you are fighting humans and are face to face with them to a type of combat where you are completely detached from what you are doing, where you are hidden behind cameras, buttons and metal and where those you are fighting are wholly dehumanised. I don't think this is necessarily new but the way in which the soldiers in the helicopter act as if they are playing a video game is a very strong case of it. I wonder whether they can even conceptualise the relationship between the gun they are firing and suffering it is causing?. That being said they probably are pretty twisted too and I don't know anything about the way the US army functions but it seems unlikely that such a mentality developed in complete isolation to strategies/techniques/whatever that they were taught.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I have noticed a tendency to reduce this to either one of two things, that those who did the shooting were simply sick individuals, thus isolated cases, or that it is symptomatic of the degenerate nature of America/Western society as a whole, eg. anyone who is American would have done the same. I don't think either work very well and I think you have to look at this more in the way that war has been removed from a style of combat in which you understand you are fighting humans and are face to face with them to a type of combat where you are completely detached from what you are doing, where you are hidden behind cameras, buttons and metal and where those you are fighting are wholly dehumanised. I don't think this is necessarily new but the way in which the soldiers in the helicopter act as if they are playing a video game is a very strong case of it. I wonder whether they can even conceptualise the relationship between the gun they are firing and suffering it is causing?. That being said they probably are pretty twisted too and I don't know anything about the way the US army functions but it seems unlikely that such a mentality developed in complete isolation to strategies/techniques/whatever that they were taught.

I would have to disagree. I don't think every American would've done what they did, because we've got plenty of American soldiers refusing to fight. Does that make them less of an American than the rest, or greater of an American than the rest? I wouldn't say so, I just think they made the right choice, rather than follow the conditionings they were brought up to. The idea of this being an american mentality, as a whole, is around the same basis that it's based on the effects of "human nature", which of course doesn't exist. Rather, it's environmental conditioning that brings people up like this. And so, it would be better to say that most Americans would do this, during this time & age, given that most Americans are brought up to be & act like this. But the idea of EVERY american being like this, I feel, is just not true. I would've refused to fire if I was put into that type of position.

[bricolage]

I would have to disagree. I don't think every American would've done what they did

Neither do I, I was listing that as one of the two lines of argument I disagree with.

[Morgenstern]

I'm surprised, they actually talked about it a little bit on MSNBC.

[Tablo]

My mother's response to what I told her was that it was probably some doctored video. Then I insisted it was real and had been confirmed by the pentagon and she went to read an article on the Fox News website which really did all it could to downplay the situation and make it seem like an isolated incident and a simple mistake that has already been apologized for. Fox is god awful. This incident fills me with so much anger. I can't stand the blind support people have for the military over here. It is driving me crazy.

[Nolan]

My mother's response to what I told her was that it was probably some doctored video. Then I insisted it was real and had been confirmed by the pentagon and she went to read an article on the Fox News website which really did all it could to downplay the situation and make it seem like an isolated incident and a simple mistake that has already been apologized for. Fox is god awful. This incident fills me with so much anger. I can't stand the blind support people have for the military over here. It is driving me crazy.

Yes, the naked bloodthirst that some american hawks have even today is something I don't think most european users of this site would understand or even believe. It's downright genocidal. My uncle wanted to use nukes against Iraq.

[FreeFocus]

I would have to disagree. I don't think every American would've done what they did, because we've got plenty of American soldiers refusing to fight. Does that make them less of an American than the rest, or greater of an American than the rest? I wouldn't say so, I just think they made the right choice, rather than follow the conditionings they were brought up to. The idea of this being an american mentality, as a whole, is around the same basis that it's based on the effects of "human nature", which of course doesn't exist. Rather, it's environmental conditioning that brings people up like this. And so, it would be better to say that most Americans would do this, during this time & age, given that most Americans are brought up to be & act like this. But the idea of EVERY american being like this, I feel, is just not true. I would've refused to fire if I was put into that type of position.

The bold contradicts itself. When one argues that this psychopathic behavior is an American mentality, it isn't to say it is inborn for people who happen to be born in the United States. Instead, it is exactly the second half of your bolded statement - environmental conditioning, in this case, culture (national psychology, zeitgeist, whatever you'd like to call it).

[Q]

Amazon has jumped on this niche (http://i.imgur.com/Udtnt.jpg).

[A Revolutionary Tool]

What was sick was when the people in humvees show up and one of them runs over one of the bodies and the guy says in a cheerful voice "I think I just ran over a body" and then they have a good laugh about it.

[Mumbles]

What I found twisted was when they were making the deal about the rpg, the helicopter came into view around the building and there was a guy walking in the middle of the road...behind the guy holding the "rpg". Now I'm no strategist or military expert, but if you're about to start some shit don't you want to be at least in a defensive position? And not in instant kill zone with a rocket? (If they have the fire propulsion coming out the back, don't know too much about rpgs to be honest)

Just more proof that the military don't actually have the intelligence to know who the "enemy" is. Hopefully this video can be used against them in some way, probably won't, but I still want it to.

[Scary Monster]

What I found twisted was when they were making the deal about the rpg, the helicopter came into view around the building and there was a guy walking in the middle of the road...behind the guy holding the "rpg". Now I'm no strategist or military expert, but if you're about to start some shit don't you want to be at least in a defensive position? And not in instant kill zone with a rocket? (If they have the fire propulsion coming out the back, don't know too much about rpgs to be honest)

Just more proof that the military don't actually have the intelligence to know who the "enemy" is. Hopefully this video can be used against them in some way, probably won't, but I still want it to.

Yeah the force that gets let off from the rear of a launcher when it fires a rocket can knock a guy unconscious, give him serious burns and even kill him. All the guys were behind him. Im pretty sure they wouldnt have, if it really was an rpg.

[CartCollector]

When one argues that this psychopathic behavior is an American mentality, it isn't to say it is inborn for people who happen to be born in the United States. Instead, it is exactly the second half of your bolded statement - environmental conditioning, in this case, culture (national psychology, zeitgeist, whatever you'd like to call it).

Well, it actually goes beyond just national psychology. There's a few more factors at play here - this is shown by how most Americans, even if they have a national psychology, would be shocked and angered by this video, even if just at the soldiers in it. The situation the soldiers were in encouraged this kind of behavior. Look up the Stanford Prison Experiment for an example of what I'm talking about. Even nice, psychologically average people can become monsters when given a certain role, especially a role which requires the use of force.

[Dean]

Follow up - survivors interviewed:
AJE: Justice sought for Iraq deaths (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/04/20104705310123161.html)



The US military says it has no reason to doubt the authenticity of a video leaked through the whistleblower website WikiLeaks showing a US military attack on a group of civilians in Iraq.
In the 2007 attack, a US military helicopter fired on a group of Iraqis, killing 12 civilians, according to the website, including two employees of the Reuters news agency.
The footage from a helicopter cockpit also shows a man stopping to help the injured, but he too is shot dead.
In an Al Jazeera exclusive, Omar al-Saleh speaks to the man's children, who were injured but survived the attack.

[GatesofLenin]

Isn't it a warcrime to shoot people who are trying to tend to wounded?
Happened during the Vietnam war as well. Whole villages were demolished and survivors shot dead. US military at it's best: gun in one hand, bible in the other! :cursing:

[Tablo]

Happened during the Vietnam war as well. Whole villages were demolished and survivors shot dead. US military at it's best: gun in one hand, bible in the other! :cursing:
I feel ya.

I think it is important that in times of revolutionary struggle that we don't make those types of mistakes. It isn't any better if we have our gun in one hand and the manifesto in the other. Not trying to throw a punch at the Marxists by any means as Anarchists are easily capable of the same things, we just don't have any specifically popular books. I just hope our anger and our passion don't get int he way of our thinking.

[Red Commissar]

The right-wingers are going nuts, they are trying to prove that there are weapons like the military investigation showed.

Looking at it, I do see what does seem to be an RPG

http://braxnet.org/f/rpg.gif


But I feel that people are missing the point of this...people can debate over why they opened up originally, but was everything else that occurred afterwards necessary?

[GatesofLenin]

I feel ya.

I think it is important that in times of revolutionary struggle that we don't make those types of mistakes. It isn't any better if we have our gun in one hand and the manifesto in the other. Not trying to throw a punch at the Marxists by any means as Anarchists are easily capable of the same things, we just don't have any specifically popular books. I just hope our anger and our passion don't get int he way of our thinking.
The new coming of the leftist movement will be smarter this time I believe and keep the homicidal maniacs at bay. Look around the world right now and all you see are capitalist superpowers occupying small countries. Is this democracy?

[Chambered Word]

The right-wingers are going nuts, they are trying to prove that there are weapons like the military investigation showed.

Looking at it, I do see what does seem to be an RPG

http://braxnet.org/f/rpg.gif


But I feel that people are missing the point of this...people can debate over why they opened up originally, but was everything else that occurred afterwards necessary?

I doubt weapons would be carried like that for a start.

How could these soldiers have correctly identified them as insurgents if:

1. They were moving casually down the centre of the road. This is a tactically poor way for troops to move and is utter suicide if an aircraft of any kind or a crewed weapon is present. How much sense can really be made of the decision to identify these people as insurgents if the report of small arms fire coming from below is also true, and these really were the people who (supposedly) fired on the helicopter earlier?
2. Assuming that the two objects observed really were weapons, why were nearly all of the members of the group apparently unarmed? If the weapons were meant to be concealed, why were they being carried in the open?

This displays a complete and utter lack of regard for human life and even professionalism in soldiering. Personally I really hope the people who did this are fucking killed.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

The right-wingers are going nuts, they are trying to prove that there are weapons like the military investigation showed.

Looking at it, I do see what does seem to be an RPG

[snip]

But I feel that people are missing the point of this...people can debate over why they opened up originally, but was everything else that occurred afterwards necessary?

I've noticed this RPG looking item too, the guy is carrying it by the grip quite casually and upside down, I've never seen someone carry an RPG like that so he must be highly inexperienced if it is one. Unless its hanging by a strap.

And I 100% agree that people seem to be missing the point, killing the people tending to the wounded was unnecessary and totally unjustified. Plus, the pilots totally overlooked the RPG looking item at 3:45 and mistakenly assumed the Camera's were RPG's.

[manic expression]

But I feel that people are missing the point of this...people can debate over why they opened up originally, but was everything else that occurred afterwards necessary?
Very true, and more than that, this was Iraq in 2007. Tons of people were carrying weapons because it was a nightmare and self-defense was a necessity. Plus, from what I know of the rules of engagement, the military isn't supposed to open fire until they have taken fire. Walking around with a weapon-like object is not cause for firing on that individual, much less an entire crowd, much less people trying to help the wounded.

Fucking disgusting. That's all I can say.

[Chambered Word]

I've noticed this RPG looking item too, the guy is carrying it by the grip quite casually and upside down, I've never seen someone carry an RPG like that so he must be highly inexperienced if it is one. Unless its hanging by a strap.

Definately, that's a good way to flirt with suicide.


And I 100% agree that people seem to be missing the point, killing the people tending to the wounded was unnecessary and totally unjustified. Plus, the pilots totally overlooked the RPG looking item at 3:45 and mistakenly assumed the Camera's were RPG's.

This too, obviously. I can't believe the Pentagon are excusing their actions.

[NaxalbariZindabad]

Excerpts from interviews conducted in July 2007 with Baghdad residents who witnessed the attack:


RICK ROWLEY: We asked the crowd of people what might have prompted the attack, and they said that when the journalist arrived, residents quickly gathered around him.

WITNESS 2: [translated] The group of civilians had gathered here because people need cooking oil and gas. They wanted to demonstrate in front of the media and show that they need things like oil, gas, water and electricity. The situation here is dramatically deteriorating. The journalists were walking around, and then the Americans started shooting. They started shooting randomly and targeted peaceful civilians from the neighborhood.

WITNESS 3: [translated] There were children in the car. Were they carrying weapons? There were two children.

WITNESS 2: [translated] Do we help the wounded or kill them? They killed all the wounded and drove over their bodies. Everyone witnessed it. And the journalist was among those who was injured, and the armored vehicle drove over his body.

WITNESS 3: [translated] The US forces, who call themselves “friendly” forces, were telling us on speakers that they were here to protect and help us. We heard those words very clearly. But what we saw was the opposite of that. We demand the American Congress and President Bush supervise their soldiers’ actions in Iraq.



RICK ROWLEY: I mean, so, first of all, there is no reason at all to believe or to conclude that any of the people in that picture are armed insurgents. I mean, you can see two men with Kalashnikovs, but this is 2007 in Baghdad. This is the height of the civil war, when dozens of bodies a day were being picked up from the street, when sectarian militias filled the Iraqi security forces, the police and the army. Every neighborhood in Baghdad organized its own protection force. And it was legal at the time for every household to own a Kalashnikov in Iraq, and every household I ever went to did. So the presence of two men, dangling at their sides Kalashnikovs, in a crowd of civilians who have no weapons at all, I mean, is absolutely no—I mean, it’s—the whole thing is ridiculous.

Source: One Day After 2007 Attack, Witnesses Describe US Killings of Iraqi Civilians (http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/8/exclusive_witnesses_describe_deadly_2007_us)

[NaxalbariZindabad]

Veteran of "Collateral Murder" Company Speaks Out

WASHINGTON - April 9 - Josh Stieber, who is a former soldier of the “Collateral Murder” Company, says that the acts of brutality caught on film and recently released via Wikileaks are not isolated instances, but were commonplace during his tour of duty.



“A lot of my friends are in that video,” says Stieber. “After watching the video, I would definitely say that that is, nine times out of ten, the way things ended up. Killing was following military protocol. It was going along with the rules as they are.”



Stieber deployed to Baghdad with Bravo Company 2-16, whose members were involved in the incident captured in Wikileaks' “Collateral Murder” video, which has made international headlines by depicting a July 2007 shooting incident outside of Baghdad in which over a dozen people, including two Reuters employees, were killed. Although he was not present at the scene of the video, he knows those who were involved and is familiar with the environment. Stieber, who now works to promote peace and alternatives to war, is speaking publicly about his time in Iraq and the incident captured in this video.



“If these videos shock and revolt you, they show the reality of what war is like,” says Stieber. “If you don’t like what you see in them, it means we should be working harder towards alternatives to war.”



Stieber currently lives in Washington, D.C.




BACKGROUND ON JOSH STIEBER:
Branch of service: United States Army (USA)

Unit: 1st ID

Rank: Spc.

Home: Laytonsville, Maryland

Served in: Baghdad (Rustamiyah) 07-08 Fort Riley, KS 06-07, 08-09

(source (http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2010/04/09))

[Psy]

What I found twisted was when they were making the deal about the rpg, the helicopter came into view around the building and there was a guy walking in the middle of the road...behind the guy holding the "rpg". Now I'm no strategist or military expert, but if you're about to start some shit don't you want to be at least in a defensive position? And not in instant kill zone with a rocket? (If they have the fire propulsion coming out the back, don't know too much about rpgs to be honest)

Just more proof that the military don't actually have the intelligence to know who the "enemy" is. Hopefully this video can be used against them in some way, probably won't, but I still want it to.

In reality if the helicopter though it was a RPG it should not have engage with so much cover as if there were hostile with a RPG (or other anti-air device) and saw them go behind the building they could easily taken up defensive positions by the time the helicopter came around and ambushed it. As even at night a scout could have easily heard the helicopter even in the dark of night with a long range microphone (that can be made with cheap obsolete electronic parts and actually used by scots in modern guerrilla forces that accompany anti-air/anti-tank guerrilla fighters in more well accompany/organized guerrilla forces). The pilots in the video are far too stupid to last long against any organized hostile force with the capabilities to take them down.

Yet it also clear those on the ground were not a threat and just casually walking the streets off-guard.

[Scary Monster]

In reality if the helicopter though it was a RPG it should not have engage with so much cover as if there were hostile with a RPG (or other anti-air device) and saw them go behind the building they could easily taken up defensive positions by the time the helicopter came around and ambushed it. As even at night a scout could have easily heard the helicopter even in the dark of night with a long range microphone (that can be made with cheap obsolete electronic parts and actually used by scots in modern guerrilla forces that accompany anti-air/anti-tank guerrilla fighters in more well accompany/organized guerrilla forces). The pilots in the video are far too stupid to last long against any organized hostile force with the capabilities to take them down.

Yet it also clear those on the ground were not a threat and just casually walking the streets off-guard.

Yeah this always makes me wonder how long the US would last if they went to war against another industrialized country with similar or worthwhile military capabilities as the US (such as Iran, China, Russia especially). All of the US' wars were against third world countries with 40 year old military equipment or guerillas. I dont see how bombing only impoverished countries really reinforces your image of authority as an Empire.

[Psy]

Yeah this always makes me wonder how long the US would last if they went to war against another industrialized country with similar or worthwhile military capabilities as the US (such as Iran, China, Russia especially). All of the US' wars were against third world countries with 40 year old military equipment or guerillas. I dont see how bombing only impoverished countries really reinforces your image of authority as an Empire.

The problem is US troops in video had too much faith in their technology, for example the helicopter pilots did not even consider for under $100 bucks it is possible to build a long range microphone and amplifier that can pick up the noise of their helicopter portable enough for infantry moving on foot and even shoulder fires SAMs from late 1960's can easily take them down and they would only need to point in their general direction (which a long range microphone would give them).

[Scary Monster]

The problem is US troops in video had too much faith in their technology, for example the helicopter pilots did not even consider for under $100 bucks it is possible to build a long range microphone and amplifier that can pick up the noise of their helicopter portable enough for infantry moving on foot and even shoulder fires SAMs from late 1960's can easily take them down and they would only need to point in their general direction (which a long range microphone would give them).

Is that even practical though? Ive never really heard of that before. Would that be able to detect a helicopter- who would be engaging them from several miles away and using terrain as cover (this is what the Apaches did to take out a radar station at the beginning of the first Gulf War to open an air corridor)- before it's too late?

[Psy]

Is that even practical though? Ive never really heard of that before. Would that be able to detect a helicopter- who would be engaging them from several miles away and using terrain as cover (this is what the Apaches did to take out a radar station at the beginning of the first Gulf War to open an air corridor)- before it's too late?
No but at that range they would be flying much higher to get line of sight then the big self propelled SAMs could see them like the BUK-M1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAtNpsXrgWs that would be hidden thus hard to sneak up on them.

Long range mics for infantry would only be useful in detecting helicopters and ground vehicles close to them yet in a urban environment combat is close enough for long range mics to pick up motors especially at night when there is little background noise (might even be able hear a helicopter miles off in the desert in the dead of night but would be of little use to infantry as they would no have any means to hit anything that far away).

For ground vehicles it is very useful as it means anti-tank infantry can track ground vehicles beyond their line of sight making it much easier to ambush armor and convoys.

[Comrade B]

The fact that the helicopter pilots confused the reporters for soldiers is not too startling, when you are in life or death situations, it is easy to lose your head.

On the other hand, the interaction between the people in the Apache are entirely disgusting. These people are without emotion, fucking sociopaths.
Also, people with the ability to kill a crowd of people like that in a matter of seconds should be trained NOT to lose their heads in a situation like that. They should know better the difference between a camera and an rpg (there was a helicopter pilot who had a blog on how these people clearly were not being cautious enough and how it was not difficult to see that it was a camera). This should be treated like a case of manslaughter, but not straight out murder.

[Scary Monster]

The fact that the helicopter pilots confused the reporters for soldiers is not too startling, when you are in life or death situations, it is easy to lose your head.

On the other hand, the interaction between the people in the Apache are entirely disgusting. These people are without emotion, fucking sociopaths.
Also, people with the ability to kill a crowd of people like that in a matter of seconds should be trained NOT to lose their heads in a situation like that. They should know better the difference between a camera and an rpg (there was a helicopter pilot who had a blog on how these people clearly were not being cautious enough and how it was not difficult to see that it was a camera). This should be treated like a case of manslaughter, but not straight out murder.

Yo do you have a link to that blog? An attack pilot's thoughts on this is pretty valuable. I just cant believe that most American comments on this video is dismissed with "well thats war kill those 'towel heads!' "

[The Ghost of Revolutions]

That had to be one of the most disturbing things every. Kudos to wikileaks.

[Red Commissar]

Yo do you have a link to that blog? An attack pilot's thoughts on this is pretty valuable. I just cant believe that most American comments on this video is dismissed with "well thats war kill those 'towel heads!' "

I would like to see that too. It would be refreshing to see some figures within the military commenting outside of the normal response I've been getting from some of them.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Well, it actually goes beyond just national psychology. There's a few more factors at play here - this is shown by how most Americans, even if they have a national psychology, would be shocked and angered by this video, even if just at the soldiers in it. The situation the soldiers were in encouraged this kind of behavior. Look up the Stanford Prison Experiment for an example of what I'm talking about. Even nice, psychologically average people can become monsters when given a certain role, especially a role which requires the use of force.

Right. In this case, the military expends a lot of effort to condition soldiers to do this - in fact this is the whole point of the military structure and training. It's not like the military is just there to teach people how to march and load a gun and give them camo - they are there to re-socialize people. Just like a cult they take you and isolate you from everyone you know, submit you to stress and high levels of peer-pressure, tell you that your parents don't care about you and that your girlfriend/wife is cheating on you and that only your comrades and superiors know what's best for you.

The fact that the military lies about this stuff and suppresses footage of routine missions like this, shows that the US military, anyway, does not think average Americans have been conditioned by pop-culture to the point that they would not become outraged if they actually knew what the US military does.

As for this video, I think Socialist Worker said it best: the only remarkable thing about this video is that it's been leaked (http://socialistworker.org/2010/04/09/massacre-caught-on-video) and it catches the military in a bald-faced lie. This is what happens every week in Iraq, this is not something out of the ordinary. In fact, in 2006, I saw a similar video live on CNN where the Apache pilots were cracking jokes while firing on people who were fleeing a building that had been bombed. None of them were armed and it was a mixture of men, women, and children. After that one airing, I searched for that video and couldn't find it again.

Also good to keep in mind when watching this video:


In late March, Gen. Stanley McChrystal, handpicked by Obama to head up NATO operations in Afghanistan, acknowledged that U.S. troops have committed many such atrocities in Afghanistan.


"We've shot an amazing number of people, and killed a number, and to my knowledge, none has proven to have been a real threat to the force," McChrystal said in a videoconference with troops about civilian casualties. "[T]o my knowledge, in the nine-plus months I've been here, not a single case where we have engaged in an escalation of force incident and hurt someone has it turned out that the vehicle had a suicide bomb or weapons in it and, in many cases, had families in it."


Fucking horrible.

[Comrade B]

It was from a blog article from the NYtimes about soldiers opinions on it, some of it isn't too useful, people discussing whether or not wikileaks is "traitorous" for supplying people with information, but there are a couple good ones

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/reaction-on-military-blogs-to-the-wikileaks-video/

Infantryman


I have spent quite a lot of time (a conservative estimate would be around 4500 hours) viewing aerial footage of Iraq (note: this time was not in viewing TADS video, but footage from Raven, Shadow, and Predator feeds)…

Between 3:13 and 3:30 it is quite clear to me, as both a former infantry sergeant and a photographer, that the two men central to the gun-camera’s frame are carrying photographic equipment. This much is noted by WikiLeaks, and misidentified by the crew of Crazyhorse 18. At 3:39, the men central to the frame are armed, the one on the far left with some AK variant, and the one in the center with an RPG. The RPG is crystal clear even in the downsized, very low-resolution, video between 3:40 and 3:45 when the man carrying it turns counter-clockwise and then back to the direction of the Apache. This all goes by without any mention whatsoever from WikiLeaks, and that is unacceptable.
At 4:08 to 4:18 another misidentification is made by Crazyhorse 18, where what appears to clearly be a man with a telephoto lens (edit to add: one of the Canon EF 70-200mm offerings) on an SLR is identified as wielding an RPG. The actual case is not threatening at all, though the misidentified case presents a major perceived threat to the aircraft and any coalition forces in the direction of its orientation. This moment is when the decision to engage is made, in error.
(note: It has to be taken into consideration that there is no way that the Crazyhorse crew had the knowledge, as everyone who has viewed this had, that the man on the corner of that wall was a photographer. The actions of shouldering an RPG (bringing a long cylindrical object in line with one’s face) and framing a photo with a long telephoto lens quite probably look identical to an aircrew in those conditions.)
I have made the call to engage targets from the sky several times, and know (especially during the surge) that such calls are not taken lightly. Had I been personally involved with this mission, and had access to real-time footage, I would have recommended against granting permission. Any of the officers with whom I served are well aware that I would continue voicing that recommendation until ordered to do otherwise. A few of them threatened me with action under Article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice for doing so. Better officers than they, fortunately, were always ready to go to bat for me and keep that from happening. That said, if either of the clearly visible weapons been oriented towards aircraft, vehicles, troops, or civilians I would have cleared Crazyhorse 18 hot in a heartbeat and defended my actions to the battle staff if needed.

Black Hawk Pilot

Wikileaks is not a security risk. The people who give them information are the security risk. Wikileaks is no different than any capable investigative journalist. They just happen to focus on these things more than most and provide a convenient website.
I do, however, object to the editorializing of the leak. You want to show the AWT video and let people decide what is or is not appropriate, that is one thing. But the comments added by Wikileaks were politicized and pre-interpreted what was going on in the video.
I was there (same Area of Operations, different job, different dangers) but can’t talk to what threat these particular aviators were facing or what threat they thought was being posed to the ground forces they were supporting. That’s where someone in the know should speak, on the record, about the situation and present the video in context. If there was an investigation afterward, that should be disclosed. I’m not saying its going to change the tragedy that occurred or even justify what happened, but context needs to be used to help the public understand what is going on and not allow Wikileaks to set the agenda.Despite the advances in thermal and optical sensors, it’s still extremely difficult for an air crew to tell an insurgent from a civilian. The Apache pilots believed that they saw AK-47s and RPGs in the hands of the figures in the video. An examination of the video, however, is inconclusive. They could really be carryinganything.Upon hearing that one of the victims is a young girl, the pilots laugh, “Well, it’s their fault for bringing their kids to a battle”.Wrong.
The pilots fail to mention these two men walking into the building, nor do they mention another unarmed man (34:40) walking directly in front of the building as they shoot a Hellfire missile. Again, read FM 3-24 (Counterinsurgency Manual), Appendix F. Another obvious Counterinsurgency failure.
It seems plausible that some of them were combatants. It is not clear that all of them were. Among the dead were individuals who were apparently being paid by Reuters as journalists. I am not suggesting that merely being employed by Reuters was grounds for killing them, but Reuters was notorious for hiring insurgents to obtain “news” for them when said stringers were not helping to manufacture propaganda for the insurgency, so count me as unimpressed by the concern about danger posed to journalists. My only concern is whether the people killed were justified in being killed, how the decision to kill them was made, and whether we have learned anything from it.At worst, the events in this video show individuals wanting to get into a firefight first and wanting to analyze their actions second – kind of like the guys who shot first at Pat Tillman and worried about positive identification later. I suspect the reality lies somewhere between the best and worst.”

[Psy]

It was from a blog article from the NYtimes about soldiers opinions on it, some of it isn't too useful, people discussing whether or not wikileaks is "traitorous" for supplying people with information, but there are a couple good ones

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/reaction-on-military-blogs-to-the-wikileaks-video/

Infantryman

I have spent quite a lot of time (a conservative estimate would be around 4500 hours) viewing aerial footage of Iraq (note: this time was not in viewing TADS video, but footage from Raven, Shadow, and Predator feeds)…

Between 3:13 and 3:30 it is quite clear to me, as both a former infantry sergeant and a photographer, that the two men central to the gun-camera’s frame are carrying photographic equipment. This much is noted by WikiLeaks, and misidentified by the crew of Crazyhorse 18. At 3:39, the men central to the frame are armed, the one on the far left with some AK variant, and the one in the center with an RPG. The RPG is crystal clear even in the downsized, very low-resolution, video between 3:40 and 3:45 when the man carrying it turns counter-clockwise and then back to the direction of the Apache.



Even if it is it is clear it is not ready to fire as no one is stupid enough to handle a RPG ready to fire like that.

[anticap]

http://collateralmurder.com/

YouTube has pulled the 17-minute "short version" (which had nearly 6.7 million views as of Google's last cache (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:GRsh8UBJbFEJ:www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D5rXPrfnU3G0)):


This video contains content from Spanish Broadcasting System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Broadcasting_System), who has blocked it on copyright grounds.

Of course, people are much less likely to watch the 39-minute "full version" (which had less than 1 million views as of Google's cache from the same date (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:A42myBacpaUJ:www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dis9sxRfU-ik)).