Communism, prohibition, and black markets

[mollymae]

Under a hypothetical communist society--for the sake of the question, answer using your own model of communism--what would be the status of recreational drugs? I think any reasonable person would say that marijuana and (I guess) alcohol wouldn't be a big deal, but what about more dangerous drugs like heroin? Would workers produce "hard" recreational drugs like this for any adult to use? Or would these drugs continue to be illegal?
If they were illegal, how would the society handle any black markets that would arise from the prohibition?
And furthermore, if a person is doing unnecessary damage to their own body by doing a fair amount of recreational drugs, is that everyone's business, since they're giving the health care workers a problem that could be avoided?

I understand I'll probably get a few different types of answers, and that's fine.

[Chimurenga.]

In an ideal Communist society, hard drugs would not exist. I don't mean that there would be any kind of prohibition of sorts. I mean that if by eliminating the problems that come with Capitalism (for example, poverty and homelessness) would eliminate any need for hard drugs. Not to mention these hard drugs were smuggled in by Capitalists. I see nothing wrong with marijuana and alcohol because some people enjoy both. Needless to say, in a Communist society, life would be a lot easier.

[Monkey Riding Dragon]

In socialist society, there certainly wouldn't be any laws restricting victimless ways of relaxing or having fun. And, as proletarianrevolution said, in a communist world, realistically the use of hard drugs would have become either exceedingly minimal or non-existent, as with anti-social behavior generally and stuff like religion. Not through force, but through a change in people's conditions and corresponding perspectives.

[CartCollector]

This article gives a good explanation for why there wouldn't be that much drug use in a Communist society: http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-ratpark.html
Notice how it shows that drug use, especially heavy drug use, comes from isolation, living in a stressful environment, and emotional abuse, conditions that would be reduced greatly in a Communist society.

[Stand Your Ground]

No drugs sounds good to me. It destroys work ethic as well as health and society.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

No drugs sounds good to me. It destroys work ethic as well as health and society.

What evidence is there to suggest any of this (apart from health)? There is nothing wrong with taking drugs for recreational purposes, it's another way to enjoy life.

Hard drugs' effects will be minimalised because a capitalist market means terrible stuff is put into drugs, I am sure such drugs will eventually disappear. I cannot see a drug like Cannabis disappearing and nor do I wish it to. The plant is very valuable for medicinal purposes and it is fun to smoke.

[Vendetta]

No drugs sounds good to me. It destroys work ethic as well as health and society.

Don't be a tool.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I agree that eliminating the reasons for abuse of alcohol and hard (addictive) drugs will be and should be the focus rather than prohibition.

It won't be eliminated altogether though. It seems that in primitive communist societies, psychedelics were a pretty big part of life and so I'd imagine that people in a future society will also play around with different mind and body altering things that they come across.

But the approach any potential substance abuse and to most social problems in general should not, imo, be about controlling individual behavior, but finding out why this is happening and how to negate the bad effects of social problems.

Bourgeois society tends to give individual answers to social problems. In Victorian society, the evident problems of capitalism and inequality were not "social" and "structural" problems, they were due to greedy ol' Scrooge who just has to have a change of heart. Today, capitalist ideology presents crime and drug abuse as the result of "bad induviduals" and "bad individual choices" not larger social conditions. It's because parent's don't talk to their kids that there is teen pregnancy or drug use.

Some of the reasons this view is useful to capitalist society is that it excuses the system itself for the social problems, it isolates people, and also the use of individual morality is useful in controlling people's behavior and attitude. In a society run by a minority group, rules for the behavior and attitudes of the majority (workers) are needed.

In a democratically run society where workers collectively run production, there will be no social need for the majority to control the behavior of the majority! So social problems will probably be dealt with on a social-level, not an individual level. When social conditions are found to be the source (like with most alcohol and drug abuse) then these conditions will have to be looked at and possibly changed (i.e. if people are working boreing jobs which lead to drug abuse, then people will need to figure out how to get rid of those undesirable tasks or create some kind of rotating shift so that no one has to do these tasks to the point of wanting to escape through drug abuse). When social problems are found to be caused by things inherent to people then I think people will want to find ways to accommodate the inherent drives and negate the ill effects.

[Glenn Beck]

Well it depends on how hypothetical we want to get here. If I were given absolute power my communist utopia would look something like Brave New World meets East Germany and everyone would be doped to the gills 24/7. More realistically drug regulations would more or less follow public opinion with some adjustment by medical opinion (and vice versa). Black markets would no doubt be violently opposed and this might degrade the way drugs are viewed making their legalization less likely. I can't predict what would happen over the long term though, I don't think we have a good enough precedent for what kind of attitude towards drug use would develop in a socialist society that had succeeded in making black markets and public health for the most part a non-issue.

[mollymae]

I agree that a poor standard of living may cause someone to turn to hard drugs, but surely capitalism cannot be entirely blamed for drug abuse? There are a myriad of reasons why one may turn to drugs, and many of those reasons could be very personal--things that have nothing to do with the way society operates. So even if drug abuse was greatly reduced, I think there will always be somewhat of a demand for harder drugs. What then?

[Jimmie Higgins]

I agree that a poor standard of living may cause someone to turn to hard drugs, but surely capitalism cannot be entirely blamed for drug abuse? There are a myriad of reasons why one may turn to drugs, and many of those reasons could be very personal--things that have nothing to do with the way society operates. So even if drug abuse was greatly reduced, I think there will always be somewhat of a demand for harder drugs. What then?Treatment done in a health-care setting. While many drugs can have severe effects on the human body more quickly that cigs or alcohol, I don't think there are many drugs that are hugely more addictive than cigarettes or have physical withdrawals much worse than alcohol dependency (withdrawls which can cause seizures and death). What makes cocaine addition or meth or heroin so much worse that other addictions has a lot to do with the expense, inability for people to function while abusing it (also true with alcohol) and the legal status of the drugs.

Addiction problems usually aren't just the addiction itself - usually other things are compounded on top which make people simply want to give up. Connected problems such as loss of work income, debt, criminal charges/prison time, alienation from relatives and family and therefore loss of the only support networks most people have in capitalist society.

[Crusade]

I think we should avoid saying "X" problem wouldn't exist in a Communist society when addressed with questions on how we would deal with certain issues. Whether it's true or not, these kinds of answers make us appear as if we have no solution. As for me, I don't believe it's my place to tell someone what they can or can't do with their own body. Ideally, no one would see the need to use such drugs, but it's not my place to say they can't. I've seen people do drugs(even the "really bad" ones) and come out of it. I've seen drugs drag people to the darkest corner of hell and keep them there. Regardless of your situation, you're better off staying away from them altogether. If you're unhappy, perhaps you have a good reason to be. Trust your conscious whether it's telling you good or bad things. I'm not gonna get all preachy about it since I'm not dumb enough to think the world is that simple. Prohibition never works and we shouldn't outlaw it(how would you go about enforcing this exactly?), with or without a state, but that doesn't mean you'd be wise to touch the stuff.

[Velkas]

In my idea of communism, drugs would be completely legal (since I advocate a society without authoritarian rules), but use of more harmful drugs would be frowned upon by society. Also, people would be educated about the dangers of drugs and drug abuse. And for the particularly harmful drugs, drug abuse could probably be medically treated somehow.

[Crusade]

In my idea of communism, drugs would be completely legal (since I advocate a society without authoritarian rules), but use of more harmful drugs would be frowned upon by society. Also, people would be educated about the dangers of drugs and drug abuse. And for the particularly harmful drugs, drug abuse could probably be medically treated somehow.

At this point, I don't think anyone engages in use of the "hard" drugs without knowing that they're dangerous to use, they just don't care. The desire to use drugs may never go away, but on the bright side, the need to SELL these drugs would be gone altogether.

[Velkas]

At this point, I don't think anyone engages in use of the "hard" drugs without knowing that they're dangerous to use, they just don't care. The desire to use drugs may never go away, but on the bright side, the need to SELL these drugs would be gone altogether.And also, as stated before, less people would turn to "hard" drugs in a communist society that grants them a better standard of living.

[blake 3:17]

Hopefully a socialist society would lead to less need for escape. I don't think that it would lead to people having no interest in using psychoactive drugs. There does appear a fairly primal drive for altered states of consciousness which many drugs provide.

People like to get wasted. They also like to chill out, get amped up, space out, feel groovy, feel numb, brighten up.

I don't think the hard/soft distinction is all that useful. Many "hard" drugs have pretty useful functions.

Some of the most useful proposals for progressive drug decriminalization come from cops -- especially Law Enforcement Against Prohibition.

Link: http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php

[28350]

For one thing, one wouldn't have a black market in a communist society, because there would be no money. Any sort of illegal distribution would have to be restricted to exchange-based bartering.

[mollymae]

For one thing, one wouldn't have a black market in a communist society, because there would be no money. Any sort of illegal distribution would have to be restricted to exchange-based bartering.

What if they created their own currency?

[CartCollector]

How would it be backed? And if the currency got widespread use, how would it backers prevent the police or a militia from shutting them down?

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I think we should avoid saying "X" problem wouldn't exist in a Communist society when addressed with questions on how we would deal with certain issues. Whether it's true or not, these kinds of answers make us appear as if we have no solution.

I don't think there's much problem with that if you realise that some of the most important reasons for drug and alcohol abuse are linked to capitalism. I understand what you mean but it is true that these reasons for drug abuse will not exist under communism. You are right though, this is not the only reason. Some of the chemicals and addicting things in drugs which cause people to become addicted and in some case to ruin peoples lives are linked to the pursuit of profit within the black market of drugs. Therefore drugs in communist society will be made in the interests of safety and quality. I think also vital to a communist perspective on drugs is to dispel the stigma surrounding recreational drugs and create an openness to drugs. Obviously I think we still will need guidelines, regulation and education. In my opinion cannabis cultivated in the interests recreational use is fairly safe and definitely safer than alcohol however I don't have much experience with other drugs and I cannot say the same for them, therefore although an open drug culture is desirable we must also be careful and ensure safety.