Creators of Star Trek: Affiliated to the Posadist Fourth International?

[Zeus the Moose]

I just finished reading a very interesting book by Robert J. Alexander, a historian of international Trotskyism. The book, titled The Final Frontier of Permanent Revolution: Star Trek and the American Posadist Movement, provides some interesting explanations as to why the Star Trek universe developed as it did.

The main premise of the book revolves around documents from the small movement in the United States that was associated with Juan Posadas, leader of a small Trotskyist international primarily based in Latin America. In particular, it's noted that many of the people associated with the creation of Star Trek at various points, including Rick Berman, Brannon Braga, and Gene Roddenberry, communicated with the American Posadists for periods of time. Roddenberry is in fact considered to have been associated with the Socialist Workers Party from 1959 to 1962, then split with a small Posadist group at that time, dropping out of official Trotskyist politics soon after. It's unknown how this seemingly freak chance of association happened, but given the similarities that several points in the Star Trek canon have with some of the more, ahem, unique aspect of Posadist theory, there can be little doubt that the influence was there.

Chief among these are the events revolving around Earth's ascent to the stars, primarily the global nuclear war that humanity suffers in the mid 21st century, and the arrival of an alien species (albeit after humanity develops interstellar travel on its own) are what finally brings humanity out capitalism into a full-fledged democratic, communist society. This fits in well with Posadas' writings on both nuclear war and the possibility of extraterrestrial life. On nuclear war, Posadas wrote: "The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism." Either believing this to be true or at least considering it a good starting point, it was couples with Posadas' belief that UFO sightings were in fact space ships from extraterrestrial communist societies. However, in the 20th century, the pilots did not stay very long, presumably because of their lack of interest in both the capitalist and deformed workers states that controlled the world at that time. After the nuclear war and the launch of humanity's first warp-capable space ship, the aliens return to Earth to help accelerate humanity's development toward communism.

Also talked about briefly is the events of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, where the crew of the original USS Enterprise go back in time to bring whales back to the present (whales having been hunted to extinction in the original timeline.) This film involves a probe sent by an unknown alien species attempting to communicate with whales. Alexander notes that this does bear similarity to one of the most eccentric theories that the Posadist movement put forth later in life about communicating with dolphins. However, Alexander argues that it would probably be a mistake to read too much into this particular similarity.

It has been well known by many fans of Star Trek that the Federation has been argued as being an interstellar communist society, but this new information brought out by Robert Alexander helps give some light into why this ended up being the case. Gene Roddenberry's progressive views have also been fairly well-documented, but now there's an argued connection that helps put it all in perspective.

Thoughts?

[mikelepore]

It has been well known by many fans of Star Trek that the Federation has been argued as being an interstellar communist society,

Communist? I don't recall a single line from Star Trek that would indicate who made the world's basic decisions, or how the administrators of the world were elected or appointed or whatever. All we are shown is that space exploration is carried out by military dictatorship, but we aren't shown anything about the administration of affairs for the civilian population, including the question of goods and services.

The scene where shoppers negotiated with a seller over the price of tribbles and Spican flame-gems seemed capitalistic to me.

A single line of dialogue in one of the Star Trek movies, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one", is about the most communist remark I ever heard, but someone could apply that remark to the regulations in any national army today as well as it could be applied to Star Trek.


Posadas' belief that UFO sightings were in fact space ships from extraterrestrial communist societies

The conclusion about extraterrestrial communist societies is quite an extrapolation from the actual UFO data: x number of people saw a disc-shaped light in the sky, and y number of people saw a triangular light in the sky.

[Ligeia]

Star Trek and Star Trek (The Next Generation) differ in their econmic outlook.
I can't remember enough anymore, but here's an intresting clip:
pzqW0YaN2ho

[Tablo]

Star Trek and Star Trek (The Next Generation) differ in their econmic outlook.
I can't remember enough anymore, but here's an intresting clip:
pzqW0YaN2ho
Sounds pretty Communist to me. :cool:

[vyborg]

I know very well the ST world. In fact i'm reading a lot of material about it just now. I will read also that book. Roddenberry was a liberal for sure (he even signed a petition against the Vietnam War) but hardly more than that...he was even a policeman.

The ST original series is progressive in many aspects but it also has many old style features. For example, the women are always stupid or naive. etc

TNG is a lot more advanced on this term. As far as the "communism" of TNG. Of course the development of productive forces is enormous but you still find workers, slaves, profit etc in the federation as well as in other civilizations they find.

[AerodynamicOwl]

I just realized how ironic i used to be. I used to be a Christian Conservative Republican Trekkie. xDDD

[Kléber]

Interesting. Although, there were a couple episodes of the original series that were clearly pro-US involvement in Vietnam, but by 1968 I believe, the show had become strongly anti-war and produced several more obviously allegorical episodes in favor of nonintervention. Does Alexander say anything about that?

Also, the nuclear war episode wher the "Yangs" (yankees) and "Koms" (commies) are fighting each other with sticks and stones, seems like a rejection of the posadist apocalypse->revolution thesis xD

[Sasha]

i always liked the progress the begin statement made troughout the series to deal with sexism and later even specieism:
it went from "where no man has gone before" to "no human has gone before" to "no one has gone before".

[vyborg]

The authors of ST clearly evolved over time as you noted (man human, etc.).

What I dont like of ST is that the productive forces are so enormously developed and yet, human being are very often so annoying, so petty, so predictable...

how is it possible that the warp speed, the teleporting, the federation etc., dont make any difference in the relationship among human beings??

for instance, in the so logical and advanced Vulcan culture, a male competes for a female and if he wins she is his possession....
Klingon, Romulans, Cardassian fight for the only reason that they are bad people...

The only real logic species, on of the best invention of the show, are the Borg. they are simply perfect in terms of logic between means and end etc

[Q]

The only real logic species, on of the best invention of the show, are the Borg. they are simply perfect in terms of logic between means and end etc

I wouldn't exactly call them perfect :p
But they are at least a better show at a completely alternative social relationship.

[vyborg]

Maybe I was not clear. I dont state that borg as a race are perfect (far from it, they are a nightmare), I mean that as a narrative creation they are perfect (logical, consistent etc)

[mikelepore]

Star Trek and Star Trek (The Next Generation) differ in their econmic outlook.

ST TNG introduces the replicator, a device that can produce anything you ask for. While being visited by a musician, Cmdr. Data says to the machine, "Computer, one viola" -- a swooosh noise and the instument materializes. That's the _deus ex machina_ for utopian fiction. Of course there's no problem figuring out how to organize work. No one has to work. I don't see any communist educational potential in that. Our movement is about rationally organizing our work. If the message was intended intended to be communistic, the replicator is about as helpful a plot device as Alice in Wonderland.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think we could say that the Star Trek world is sort of social-democratic or liberal-utopian. I don't think it's overtly marxist or anarchist since the progress seems to have come from a peaceful "evolution" of people.

The idea of replicating anything from raw matter, basically creates socialism without class conflict and the need to organize society along new lines. It's the end of capitalism: Machina Ex Machina.

But it definitely is progressive and speaks to people's hopes. Even the arch-villains the Klingon's became allies. It seems like almost every later episode of the "next generation" was about "terrorism" - there would be a federation ally demanding that the Federation detain the "terrorist aliens" and Piccard would waltz in and say: "hold on a minute, let's listen to their demands". The it would turn out that the "terrorists" were justified and the allies were oppressing them.


"Finn: The difference between generals and terrorists, Doctor, is only the difference between winners and losers. You win, you're called a general. You lose..."


Finn: "Captain, the Federation has a lot to admire in it, but there's a hint of moral cowardice in your dealings with non-aligned planets. You're doing business with a government that is crushing us and you say you're not involved. You're very, very much involved. You just don't want to get dirty."
Picard: "You accuse us of cowardice while you plant bombs in shadows?"
Finn: "I am been fighting the only war that I can against an intractable enemy."

Of course these subjects were taken on with a lot of moralizing and allegory, but the fact that a show for high school kids essentially brought up subjects like this is pretty amazing.

[Zeus the Moose]

I'm really glad to see the discussion that this article has provoked. Star Trek (and sci-fi in general) is probably one of my oldest hobbies, and I'm always interested in looking at science fiction from a Marxist standpoint.

Unfortunately, this article is a fake.

Well, all the information in it, except for the new book by Robert J. Alexander, is true. Posadim is some seriously weird stuff, and I have noticed some interesting similarities between certain events in the Star Trek universe and various points of Posadist theory. However, to my knowledge there is no link between the two. It's just an interesting coincidence that I only wish was true.

So, April Fools comrades!

[Q]

I'm really glad to see the discussion that this article has provoked. Star Trek (and sci-fi in general) is probably one of my oldest hobbies, and I'm always interested in looking at science fiction from a Marxist standpoint.

Unfortunately, this article is a fake.

Well, all the information in it, except for the new book by Robert J. Alexander, is true. Posadim is some seriously weird stuff, and I have noticed some interesting similarities between certain events in the Star Trek universe and various points of Posadist theory. However, to my knowledge there is no link between the two. It's just an interesting coincidence that I only wish was true.

So, April Fools comrades!

Like you said on LT: You are a terrible person ;)

[Martin Blank]

Y'know, I said twice on here yesterday that people needed to watch Zeus to see how an epic April Fool's joke should be pulled on here. That's what y'all get for not listening. :D

[Devrim]

Unfortunately, this article is a fake.

I'm impressed. I'm not a fan, but you totally had me. I even e-mailed a friend who is a fan to tell him about it.


Well, all the information in it, except for the new book by Robert J. Alexander, is true.

Including the bit about the writer of Star Trek being a Posadist?:blink:


Posadim is some seriously weird stuff,

Yes, there is some weird stuff. I always feel obliged to mention this when it comes up, but people I knew who met him said he was a good worker-militant until he was put inside and horribly tortured, and he never really recovered from it mentally.

Of course that doesn't excuse the people who went along with it all.

Devrim

[vyborg]

I think that if the great bird was still alive he would have enjoyed the article a lot anyway...

[Zeus the Moose]

Y'know, I said twice on here yesterday that people needed to watch Zeus to see how an epic April Fool's joke should be pulled on here. That's what y'all get for not listening. :D

Heheh, thanks for the vote of confidence, Miles :)

[chegitz guevara]

brilliantly played, you rat bastard.

[Sasha]

:lol: (moved to chitchat)

[mikelepore]

"I told you before, and I'm telling you again, I don't want any more Spican flame gems. Thanks to you, I have enough Spican flame gems to last me a lifetime."

Merchant in the Star Trek episode, "The Trouble With Tribbles" (December 29, 1967)

Comment:
Uh-oh! The theory of marginal utility!