Racism in India

[red cat]

Any information anyone ?

I have already observed that there is a general tendency among Indians ( as in those belonging to the higher economic category that can afford to move to other countries) who migrate to other countries to marry whites specifically. Probably there is also something relating the lower castes and black people in India. I have also come across stories of Black Americans of being casually referred to as "an African man" and even laughed at in Indian banks and other public places.

[RadioRaheem84]

Are not fair skinned people treated better in India? I know they have all sorts of commercials for Far and Lovely skin whitening lotion and they always show that one "dark skinned" Indian girl who cannot get a job because her skin isn't as light as the "beautiful fair skinned Indian".

All one has to do is look at Bollywood and Indian TV to see all the lighter toned pointed nose Indians to see that it's not an accurate portrayal of the whole population. The same thing happens in Latin America.

[pranabjyoti]

Pretty simple, just compare any Bollywood hero with the adivasis, who are under the boots of operation Green Hunt launched by the state. India is a tropical country, but those who are regular viewers of Bollywood or other Indian language movies, can not show anybody any hero or heroine with dark complexion. If yes, they are exceptionally rare during the long history of Indian movies after independence in 1947. Just take any Indian newspaper (even English) and just look at the "bride/groom wanted" section of the paper. Inevitably, with some rare exceptions, you can see "FAIR" brides (not grooms) are wanted. In Hindi or other mainstream Indian languages, "Gori" means a beautiful woman which literally means "FAIR".
Just go to US or any other first world country and make some survey on Non Resident Indians there regarding how much of them married a white and how much of them blacks. Without knowing the results, I can easily tell that the ratio would be unparalleled.
Better ask any African or even black Americans, who have little knowledge of Indians, they can give you the right answer. I am willing to see some response from our African Comrades or even black American comrades, who have idea about Indian mentality. That responses will tell the proper truths.

[pranabjyoti]

Are not fair skinned people treated better in India? I know they have all sorts of commercials for Far and Lovely skin whitening lotion and they always show that one "dark skinned" Indian girl who cannot get a job because her skin isn't as light as the "beautiful fair skinned Indian".

All one has to do is look at Bollywood and Indian TV to see all the lighter toned pointed nose Indians to see that it's not an accurate portrayal of the whole population. The same thing happens in Latin America.
Actually, the matter is a little different in Latin America as far as I can understand. In Latin America, the whites and comparatively blacks are basically two different races and it's something like a kind of racial supremacy. But in India, the picture is different, even people from the same race are judged with their skin tones. Rekha, a Bollywood heroine and a very good actress, heightened her position by just skin treatment i.e. by turning fair with skin treatment. I hope this is not the case in Latin America, where there are other racial features than just skin color and that will be very tough to remove.
The root of Indian mentality lies in its till continuing feudal ideologies where in Latin America, the matter is racial supremacy which is actually "capitalist" and comparatively modern.

[RedStarOverChina]

In South and East asia, "fair" skin has traditionally been the preference. I suspect it's more of a class/caste issue than a race issue. People of darker skin is associated with the peasantry and the working class--or in the case of India, lower castes.

That's not to say there's no racism in South and East Asia, of course.

[red cat]

Actually, the matter is a little different in Latin America as far as I can understand. In Latin America, the whites and comparatively blacks are basically two different races and it's something like a kind of racial supremacy. But in India, the picture is different, even people from the same race are judged with their skin tones. Rekha, a Bollywood heroine and a very good actress, heightened her position by just skin treatment i.e. by turning fair with skin treatment. I hope this is not the case in Latin America, where there are other racial features than just skin color and that will be very tough to remove.
The root of Indian mentality lies in its till continuing feudal ideologies where in Latin America, the matter is racial supremacy which is actually "capitalist" and comparatively modern.

In India there are some differences between aryans, dravidians, tribals and mongoloids. I think the high caste people (who are mostly the small privileged class ) call themselves aryan and discriminate against the other three groups, don't they ?

[pranabjyoti]

In South and East asia, "fair" skin has traditionally been the preference. I suspect it's more of a class/caste issue than a race issue. People of darker skin is associated with the peasantry and the working class--or in the case of India, lower castes.

That's not to say there's no racism in South and East Asia, of course.
You can find it out in West Asia i.e. Gulf and Arabian countries too. Actually, you can find out this kind of mentality almost everywhere, where feudal ideology and remains of feudalism exist.

[pranabjyoti]

In India there are some differences between aryans, dravidians, tribals and mongoloids. I think the high caste people (who are mostly the small privileged class ) call themselves aryan and discriminate against the other three groups, don't they ?
Actually it is not racial difference, but rather feudal mentality. The above said groups have other racial features than just skin color. But, here in India, too much emphasis is given on skin color, not on the other racial features.

[black magick hustla]

I remember telling an international indian female student that she is brown she denied it and said she was fair.I thought about that incident for a while and then I realized what pranab said. She seemed pretty shocked. as If hurt. I didnt say it in a deameaning manner, I always refer myself as brown.

[cb9's_unity]

Could preference for lighter skin in India be the same as the old preference for lighter skin in Europe? To my knowledge lighter skin was traditionally a sign that you did little to no work and were of a privileged class.

That is just me taking a wild guess though (meaning I almost expect to be wrong). I know almost nothing about Indian culture.

[pranabjyoti]

Could preference for lighter skin in India be the same as the old preference for lighter skin in Europe? To my knowledge lighter skin was traditionally a sign that you did little to no work and were of a privileged class.

That is just me taking a wild guess though (meaning I almost expect to be wrong). I know almost nothing about Indian culture.
Basically same and you are right. This kind of mentality has its root in feudal ideology and culture. This can also be a clear indication that how feudalism and feudal mentality is still strong in India.

[Red Commissar]

As for this skin tone thing, it is not unique to Indians themselves. Like Prana said they do this in the Middle-East as well. Particularly for women, fair skin tone is desired and there is a lot of business in the field of products to help them to do that.

[Kléber]

I have heard the caste system in India compared to the sistema de castas in Latin America, with the argument that Aryan invaders had set it up similar to how the Spanish invaders set up theirs. Is there any truth to that?

[pranabjyoti]

I have heard the caste system in India compared to the sistema de castas in Latin America, with the argument that Aryan invaders had set it up similar to how the Spanish invaders set up theirs. Is there any truth to that?
There are some basic differences. Though much research had not yet done in this field, but in ancient civilizations, systems similar to caste system can also be observed. In Egypt, a son of a weaver can not take other profession than becoming another weaver and this is very much similar to caste system. What the Spanish invaders set in Latin America is racial supremacy, not exactly caste system. But, probably caste system exist in India even before the invasion by Aryans. The caste system is still existing strong in the southern states of India, where Dravidian culture is stronger than Aryan culture.

[pranabjyoti]

I am requesting our moderators to shift this post to the Politics section, because it is not just learning but rather a grave and deep political issue.

[red cat]

I am requesting our moderators to shift this post to the Politics section, because it is not just learning but rather a grave and deep political issue.

This.

[Rjevan]

Your wish is my command.
Moved to Politics.

[pranabjyoti]

I am wondering how little is the number of users of this website from the really oppressed and humiliated part of the world, say Africa. I guess none here and in my opinion IT'S NOT A GOOD THING.

[bricolage]

I am wondering how little is the number of users of this website from the really oppressed and humiliated part of the world, say Africa. I guess none here and in my opinion IT'S NOT A GOOD THING.

Considering on average just over 6% of people in Africa have access to the internet I think it's quite understandable that there aren't many Africans on this website.

[pranabjyoti]

Considering on average just over 6% of people in Africa have access to the internet I think it's quite understandable that there aren't many Africans on this website.
I think probably none is using this website.

[bricolage]

I think probably none is using this website.

I think so too.

[pranabjyoti]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/india-losing-maoist-t117578/index24.html
Kindly go this thread and find the REAL picture of Indian feudal apartheid mentality from the heart of original Indian people.

[RedStarOverChina]

I've exchanged emails with an ethnic "Lhoba" (a Tibetan word that refers to the ethnicity of several aboriginal tribes living mostly in the disputed territory between China and India) in India. "Lhobas" look more like East Asians than South Asians, and consequently they are on the receiving end of racism in India.

The following are excerpts from his emails.


thanx for reply. i am not sure but we r similar to lhoba ethnics in tibet. ours constitute around 10,000,000 populations. some other ethnics have similarities with TAI ethnic of china and have their origin from their. tibetan refugees are also settled here. in our region a bit controlled but in eastern sector lots of immigrants like bangladeshi nepali and indians etc. There is "national security Act" imposed in our state so that people can't speak for joining china. already arrested a few of them. There are many educated youths who wants to join china. But chinese authorities are doing nothing to liberate our people from india's opression. Military exercises within the hilly region killed some locals but none could speak about it. they are damaging the ecosystem by their bombing exercise. the condition of the region is becoming worse and worse. In two regions of the state AFSPA has been imposed which gives unlimited powers to indian army. Better ask in some chinese forums....

struggle comes only when people suffers......the region is becoming more and more exploited due to indian immigrants ,people not getting their dignity, racial abuse in mainland india, distortion of history of zangnan etc.. the funniest thing is that even many mainland indians thinks we r chinese (a second class citizen type in india) and abuse us as chinky or chinks. last year 3 girls of zangnan were molested and racially abused in delhi by indians and none of any organisation of zangnan had any power to protest.

have a look at near tibet border in india... this is manipur state near to zangnan , indian have applied special act for indian army in zangnan and manipur of india.. and have a feel about the people's condition there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEMU91B1Ftg

Excuse the informality of his language.

[pranabjyoti]

The North Eastern provinces of India are under oppression of Indian states for all the period after independence. Military rule, which is even worse than what has been described as STALINIST kind of rule is applied here for a long time and people here are living without even the basic rights. Perhaps this can be compared to the condition of Jews in Nazi Germany. But one big difference is there, the Jews of Nazi can fled to other European or overseas countries but the poor people of this area don't have that chance.
What is really stunning is lack of voice from "democratic" persons worldwide. Even the leftist TROTS and ANARCHOS kept some kind of golden silence about the atrocities by the BIGGEST DEMOCRACY :laugh: of the world. So far, no actions had been taken against Indian rulers and they just keep continuing their "democratic act" to fool people around the world.
Silence on behalf of China is also amazing in this respect.
What is also stunning to me is the lack of interest of leftists about the atrocities of this BIGGEST DEMOCRACY in the world. If just 1/10th or less of this will be done in any socialist country, I am certain that we will see a posting frenzy even in this website. OH, POOR LEFTISTS.

[black magick hustla]

I think probably none is using this website.

and of the six percent I imagine very few read up about marxism.

Actually, most of my family is from africa and most of them are from a very urban working class background. Quite a few of them have internet, but this is northern africa.

[red cat]

I've exchanged emails with an ethnic "Lhoba" (a Tibetan word that refers to the ethnicity of several aboriginal tribes living mostly in the disputed territory between China and India) in India. "Lhobas" look more like East Asians than South Asians, and consequently they are on the receiving end of racism in India.

The following are excerpts from his emails.

...


Excuse the informality of his language.


Racism against mongoloids was consciously created in India to suppress the North-eastern states, and intensified many times after India lost its war with China.

[red cat]

The North Eastern provinces of India are under oppression of Indian states for all the period after independence. Military rule, which is even worse than what has been described as STALINIST kind of rule is applied here for a long time and people here are living without even the basic rights. Perhaps this can be compared to the condition of Jews in Nazi Germany. But one big difference is there, the Jews of Nazi can fled to other European or overseas countries but the poor people of this area don't have that chance.
What is really stunning is lack of voice from "democratic" persons worldwide. Even the leftist TROTS and ANARCHOS kept some kind of golden silence about the atrocities by the BIGGEST DEMOCRACY :laugh: of the world. So far, no actions had been taken against Indian rulers and they just keep continuing their "democratic act" to fool people around the world.
Silence on behalf of China is also amazing in this respect.
What is also stunning to me is the lack of interest of leftists about the atrocities of this BIGGEST DEMOCRACY in the world. If just 1/10th or less of this will be done in any socialist country, I am certain that we will see a posting frenzy even in this website. OH, POOR LEFTISTS.


True. All the other tendencies in India are so busy explaining to the proletariat how the Maoists are actually working for capitalists, that they forget to mention these "insignificant minority" populations being brutally suppressed by the Indian government. :lol:

By the way, the Maoists have not only exposed the naked racist policies of India in these states, but have also started cooperating with some revolutionary organizations there to overthrow the oppressive ruling class.

[pranabjyoti]

What now hurts and haunts me is the kind of feeling less attitude of international community in this regard. Most interestingly, so far I haven't seen any trot or anarchists had spoken so far against India. Why? Because India is not a STALINIST state so far? If 1/10th of such atrocities will occur after the Maoists had taken the power, they will just shatter all roofs in their locality.

[bricolage]

What now hurts and haunts me is the kind of feeling less attitude of international community in this regard. Most interestingly, so far I haven't seen any trot or anarchists had spoken so far against India. Why? Because India is not a STALINIST state so far? If 1/10th of such atrocities will occur after the Maoists had taken the power, they will just shatter all roofs in their locality.

What do you want people to say? Abstract condemnations of India? I think it's a given that everyone here opposes all bourgeois states, I find it quite petty and insulting of you to assume otherwise just because we don't all assume any group positioning its rhetoric against state x is subsequently worth 'supporting' (itself another abstract position, what does it mean if I say I 'support' a Maoist insurgency? Not very much).

[pranabjyoti]

What do you want people to say? Abstract condemnations of India? I think it's a given that everyone here opposes all bourgeois states, I find it quite petty and insulting of you to assume otherwise just because we don't all assume any group positioning its rhetoric against state x is subsequently worth 'supporting' (itself another abstract position, what does it mean if I say I 'support' a Maoist insurgency? Not very much).
Yes, all states are equal but some like INDIA are more equal than the others. Despite this kind of STALINIST(!):blink: acts are going on and one just say "all are equal" seems like a kind of staying aloof attitude to me. It is not a matter to the people that a single person support them or not, but rather to the single person that he/she is sensitive enough to react to such humiliation of humanity.

[red cat]

Yes, all states are equal but some like INDIA are more equal than the others. Despite this kind of STALINIST(!):blink: acts are going on and one just say "all are equal" seems like a kind of staying aloof attitude to me. It is not a matter to the people that a single person support them or not, but rather to the single person that he/she is sensitive enough to react to such humiliation of humanity.

As soon as some country undergoes a Maoist revolution, it will become "more equal" in the eyes of Trots. :D

[bricolage]

Yes, all states are equal but some like INDIA are more equal than the others.

All states are equally illegitimate, that some are more oppressive than others does not change this. That some are more oppressive than others of course means we will spend more time focussing on them and resisting them as our primary aim should always be to alleviate the suffering of the human race, however in a theoretical, long term, sense all states remain equally illegitimate.


Despite this kind of STALINIST(!):blink: acts are going on and one just say "all are equal" seems like a kind of staying aloof attitude to me.

No it's accepting that we don't just oppose authoritarian or oppressive states, we oppose the 'kind' ones too.


It is not a matter to the people that a single person support them or not, but rather to the single person that he/she is sensitive enough to react to such humiliation of humanity.

I think it's misleading for you to assume that people here don't react to such humiliation. Your assertion seems to be everyone on this web forum enjoys seeing the Indian people suffer, I don't think you have any basis for this.

[pranabjyoti]

All states are equally illegitimate, that some are more oppressive than others does not change this. That some are more oppressive than others of course means we will spend more time focussing on them and resisting them as our primary aim should always be to alleviate the suffering of the human race, however in a theoretical, long term, sense all states remain equally illegitimate.
Sorry to say, but the idea that until and unless we can form a worldwide stateless society, this kind of repression can go on is beyond my limit. This idea means we just put helpless and oppressed people under the mercy of oppressors until and unless most of the people of the world become aware enough to unite and uproot the state system. This kind of mentality in my opinion is simply "escapist".

No it's accepting that we don't just oppose authoritarian or oppressive states, we oppose the 'kind' ones too.
That's basic incapability to differentiate in type and quality, JUST ALL ARE EQUAL.

I think it's misleading for you to assume that people here don't react to such humiliation. Your assertion seems to be everyone on this web forum enjoys seeing the Indian people suffer, I don't think you have any basis for this.
If so, that can understood by their reaction. A large section of people here are much more interested in abstract ideas and digging of past than the incidents in the real world.

[bricolage]

Sorry to say, but the idea that until and unless we can form a worldwide stateless society, this kind of repression can go on is beyond my limit.

I didn't say this at all, in fact if you read what I wrote (emphasis added);


All states are equally illegitimate, that some are more oppressive than others does not change this. That some are more oppressive than others of course means we will spend more time focussing on them and resisting them as our primary aim should always be to alleviate the suffering of the human race, however in a theoretical, long term, sense all states remain equally illegitimate.Specifically suffering in the here and now. I don't understand why you think I am excusing present day suffering.


That's basic incapability to differentiate in type and quality, JUST ALL ARE EQUAL.
Like I said all are equally illegitimate, that does not mean all are equally oppressive.


If so, that can understood by their reaction. A large section of people here are much more interested in abstract ideas and digging of past than the incidents in the real world.I'm not sure that is the case, if it is it's not something I'm defending. I think the entire 'left' is based in the past, I agree with William Blake that we should 'Drive your cart and your plough over the bones of the dead'. I'd also argue a lot more people here are involved in real world struggles than you give them credit for, I don't know though this is all just speculation.

[CartCollector]

On the idea of all states being illegitimate: it's just like how the radical left sees all capitalist corporations as illegitimate. Just because a corporation pays its workers more, gives them more benefits, or allows them to have a union, doesn't mean that's all there is and all we should be fighting for. Sure it's nice to have, but it's only a short term solution. The same goes for states.

Also, what do you want us to do about India? Most of us live hundreds, if not thousands, of miles away from India.

[pranabjyoti]

On the idea of all states being illegitimate: it's just like how the radical left sees all capitalist corporations as illegitimate. Just because a corporation pays its workers more, gives them more benefits, or allows them to have a union, doesn't mean that's all there is and all we should be fighting for. Sure it's nice to have, but it's only a short term solution. The same goes for states.

Also, what do you want us to do about India? Most of us live hundreds, if not thousands, of miles away from India.
It's not about the country of India, but the state of India i.e. the Indian ruling class. If you cannot directly help the fighters of the oppressed class of India, then at least you can boycott Indian goods and tell people near you about the facts discussed in this thread. That too is sufficient.

[pranabjyoti]

It is often told that Indian films i.e. Bollywood films are very popular in Africa. But, I have great doubt that other than North African countries like Egypt, whose population can not properly be called as what we meant by "African". Can anybody help me with information that how popular is Bollywood films in Middle, East and West Africa, to be precise among the black people of Africa? I really have great doubt over the fact and also about the image of Indian people to them.

[pranabjyoti]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/spring-thunder-indias-t132890/index.html.
Another example of the basically racist mentality of the people attached to the Indian state. If 1/10th of such atrocities were done with a "white", upper class Indian, the scenario would be completely different.

[pranabjyoti]

http://kasamaproject.org/2010/04/13/...arundhati-roy/ (http://www.anonym.to/?http://kasamaproject.org/2010/04/13/india-police-consider-charges-against-arundhati-roy/)
Racists are turning into fascists.

[pranabjyoti]

CRPP Denounces Death Sentences to 3 Kashmiris

By Ka Frank

http://revolutionaryfrontlines.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/india-army-in-kashmir.jpg?w=450&h=265 (http://revolutionaryfrontlines.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/india-army-in-kashmir.jpg)Indian Army at work in Kashmir

by Committee for Release of Political Prisoners, April 10, 2010
Giving Death Sentence to 3 Kashmiris and rigorous life imprisonment to another in the Lajpat Nagar Blast Case vindicates the observation that “being a Kashmiri itself is a crime to be punished in India!
Strongly Condemn the use of Capital Punishment by the Government of India!
Abolish Capital Punishment!
After 14 long years, a Delhi Court has finally given death sentence to three Kashmiris—Mohd Naushad, Mohd Ali Bhatt and Mirza Nissar Hussain—in the 1996 Lajpat Nagar blast case while putting Javed Ahmed Khan under rigorous life imprisonment. While two others—Farooq Ahmed Khan and Farida Dar—were released as the court observed that the 14 years that they had spent in the prison would be considered as their punishment.
Here there is a catch. A week before the court had acquitted 4 others as it had found them innocent, that too after 14 long years! So the question that arises to any discerning mind is that if two have been released as their 14 year incarceration is being taken as punishment by the Hon’ble Court for them, then why is it that the court silent on the same quantum of years spent by the acquitted four. Can the court give back their 14 long years? Can it compensate for the physical and mental injury along with the social stigma that these four and their kith and kin have gone through? Who should be held accountable for such travesty of justice?
It should be noted that the Court has rapped the police for shoddy evidence and irresponsible conduct which it has termed as lack of seriousness. How can such criminal lapse on the side of the investigating agencies make life miserable for people who can only get justice that too to be declared innocent after almost spending a life sentence! So when one of the persons who have been on trial was on record saying that “being a Kashmiri itself is a crime to be punished in India” the court sentence proved to be a grim reminder, a tragic replay of the gross injustice meted out to the people of Kashmir by the Indian judiciary.
We at the CRPP reiterate that every democratic mind should raise this question about the authorities who have falsely implicated them and fed all kinds of insinuating and incriminating stories in the media on their so-called involvement. Will they ever stand for trial? Or raising a question against them would affect the morale of the investigating agencies? Once again what comes to sharp focus is a continuing story of calculated assault on the lives of particular people who have been targeted for their political convictions.
More than a case of showing how fair the system is—as it has acquitted the genuinely innocent and tried the ones for their “various roles”—this once again brings forth the ugly face of blatant violation of procedures and rights of the accused, let alone their right to represent themselves without being prejudiced against.
Despite shoddy evidence and irresponsible conduct from the side of the police, it did not stop the court to give death sentence to 3 Kashmiris which is a punishment that has been long given up by many civilised countries. India is yet to sign this International treaty to which many of the democracies in the world are signatory against a worst form of barbaric punishment that can only further criminalise the people and the system. We demand unequivocally to abolish Capital Punishment and demand the Indian Government to immediately sign the International Treaty abandoning death penalty as a form of punishment.
Given the way things are unfolding for the people of Kashmir all claims of the Government of India about a bill against torture or allegedly safeguards against that sounds like a cruel joke as many of such detention centres in Kashmir are illegal and secret.
Ever since the news of the sentencing of six people along with the acquittal of four of the 1996 Lajpat Nagar blast case the valley of Kashmir has witnessed series of protest demonstrations, and complete shutdown. This reflects the general apathy of a people who have been subjected to the worst kinds of human rights violations.
Illegal detentions, trumped up cases and imprisonment being a common way of life for the average Kashmiri, the question of the political prisoner and his/her status and safeguards against all forms of torture and intimidation becomes paramount. While this is being written there are several people who have been kept behind bars including leaders for protesting against the gross violations of the civil and political rights of the people of Kashmir. In fact this anger is evident in the complete shutdown of the valley and when the people and their leaders say that they are being targeted for their demand for the Right to Self-Determination.
In Solidarity,
CRPP officers

http://revolutionaryfrontlines.wordpress.com/2010/04/23/crpp-denounces-death-sentences-to-3-kashmiris/#more-2379
ISN'T THIS RACISM?