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Benjamin Hill
29th March 2010, 15:32
A guy called Pat Byrne wrote an historical piece on the origins of the slate system (http://sites.google.com/a/karlmarx.net/open/topics/democratic-centralism-1/theoriginofthe%E2%80%98slatesystem%E2%80%99), a system often used by Leninist organisations in elections. The argument to defend it usually goes that by this system a "balanced team" can be elected. Pat makes the case that slates are in fact alien to the workers movement, demolishes the need for a slate system as undemocratic and in fact oligarchic (although he doesn't use that term). I would like to hear some opinions on this from members who think the slate system is democratic. Have a nice read:


The Origin of the ‘Slate System’

posted Mar 19, 2010 10:51 AM by Admin uk Pat Byrne March 2010

The Origin of the ‘Slate System’ used in elections for the leadership of Leninist Groups

The leadership-recommended slate system for internal elections to the national leadership is used in most leninist groups. It is not a natural system arising from the workers own experiences and democratic instincts but something artificially imported into the workers movement. In theory, the slate system can be used to recommend a list that consciously includes a good balance of talents and personalities. In practice, it gives the existing leadership a tremendous advantage in elections and experience has shown that it has allowed leaders to secure their continuous re-election along with a body of like-minded and loyal followers.

Let’s examine how the ‘slate system’ arose. As the leninist movement supposedly bases itself on the example of the Bolshevik Party, we need to start our process of discovery here. The following information comes mainly from a study made on how Communist Party internal elections were carried out in Revolutionary Russia. The study, ‘The Evolution of Leadership Selection In The Central Committee 1917-1927’, was written by the well-known sovietologist and academic Robert V. Daniels who drew most of his information from the official records of Bolshevik and CPSU party congresses. His essay was published in a fairly obscure academic study of Russian Officialdom which covered Russian society from the 17th to the 20th centuries.

The first thing that may be surprising to state is that the Bolshevik Party did not operate slates. By Bolshevik Party we mean the party that led the Socialist Revolution in October 1917. This party, the Russian Social Democratic and Labour Party (majority), used the normal system of electing its leadership that has naturally emerged in every workers movement across the world – voting for individual candidates in a competitive election. Thus those successfully elected to the Central Committee (the leading body of the Party) had to receive higher votes than the unsuccessful candidates. Of course, unofficial slates did exist based on political questions and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But there was no official list of candidates recommended by the outgoing leadership with all the advantage and status that would have conferred on a candidate.

This normal election procedure continued after the revolution and the Bolshevik Party changed its name to the Communist Party:
“Until well after the Revolution the makeup of the Communist Central Committee was governed by genuine elections at the party congresses, however they may have been influenced by factional controversies and pressure by the leadership (i.e. Lenin). Congress delegates voted for as many individuals as there were seats on the Central Committee, and the appropriate number with the highest votes were declared elected. Candidate members were originally the runners-up, but by 1920 they were being voted on separately after the roster of full members was announced. Under these conditions the membership of the Central Committee was naturally drawn from well-known revolutionary activists and key figures in the central party leadership.” (pp.357-358)

Thus the relatively small Central Committee was made up of well-known individuals:

“Through 1920, at least, the numbers were small enough so that most aspirants were being voted on by the Congress delegates on the basis of personal or direct knowledge. However, or perhaps for this reason, election to the Central Committee was sensitive to personal popularity and the interplay of the factional controversies that freely animated the life of the party during the War Communism period. Some individuals (A.S. Bubnov, for instance) reached, fell, and returned to the Central Committee as many as three times.” (p.358)

However, a significant change occurred in 1921. This was a key year in the development of the Soviet Union. In many respects 1921 was the turning point from which we can trace the degeneration of the Communist Party and the Soviet state it ruled. This was the year which saw mass hunger in the countryside and strikes in the cities. A major factional battle ensued between Lenin on one side and Trotsky on the other over how to solve the crisis. The old Central Committee was almost evenly divided. In the elections for the delegates to the Tenth Party Congress Lenin’s more flexible and positive position won a large majority. But the delegate election campaign also reflected the growing ability of the official party bureaucracy to manipulate the party machine with many examples of the packing of meetings etc. Lenin’s victory meant the abandonment of War Communism and the introduction of the New Economic Policy. The latter allowed the partial reintroduction of the market and small-scale capitalism. However, the serious revolt of the sailors at Kronstadt which threatened the whole future of the revolution brought matters to a head. It was in the midst of this crisis that the Tenth Congress of the Communist Party met.

Quite apart from the division within the party leadership caused by the Trade Union Debate, discontent was rife at all levels of the Party. There were two rank and file opposition factions: the Democratic Centralists who protested that the democratic aspect of the party and state life was being lost; and the Workers Opposition who were pushing for direct trade union control of industry. It was in this situation that Lenin introduced his disastrous proposal to ban factions. Although this was only thought to be a temporary measure to prevent the party being torn apart in the crisis, it became a permanent rule within the Soviet Party and was used by Stalin again and again to silence dissent.

The same was true with the proposal to purge the party of uncommunist elements who had joined for opportunist reasons. This had originally been put forward by the Workers Opposition and was taken up and pushed forward by Lenin. But its implementation was carried out by Stalin and his loyal party apparatus who used it to remove political dissidents and recruit more ‘reliable’ elements.

The third organisational measure that was to make it much easier for Stalin to assert and maintain control was the introduction of a block slate system in the elections for the Central Committee:

“In 1921, at the Tenth Party Congress, the first signs appeared of a basic change in the actual manner of selecting Central Committee members. This was the practice of making up a semiofficial slate of aspirants, to be voted on de facto as a group by the Congress delegates. The occasion happened to be the most acute crisis ever experienced by the Soviet leadership, when it came under attack both externally from peasant rebels and the naval mutineers at Kronstadt, and internally from the left and ultra-left factions represented by Trotsky and the Workers' Opposition. Having decisively defeated his critics within the Communist Party in the pre-Congress delegate selection, Lenin evidently decided to use his influence not only to oust several key oppositionists from the Central Committee but to expand the body from nineteen to twenty-five, thereby creating in all nearly a dozen openings for new people.

The fact that a slate of recommended official candidates was prepared for the Congress delegates to vote on is made clear by the totals of individual votes announced after the ballot. Lenin was everyone's choice, with 479 votes. But nearly unanimous votes were received by numerous other people, tapering down to 351 for the twenty-fourth member, the newcomer I. Ia. Tuntul, ... far ahead of the next contender, the deposed Trotskyist party secretary Krestinsky with 161.” (p.357-358)

In addition to the ‘old Bolshevik’ leaders, Lenin promoted less well-known figures who he thought would be more supportive of his position:
“Basically Lenin's slate making to curb the opposition factions that so plagued him in 1921 relied on the award of Central Committee status to loyal but not widely known provincial functionaries who would have stood little chance in the earlier style contest for a smaller body of stellar personalities.” (p.359-360)

At the Eleventh Party Congress in 1922, in which Lenin was unable to play a major role due to illness, the individual figures for the elections to the Central Committee were for the first time not even announced. Presumably because it would have appeared strange and embarrassing to see the unofficial leadership slate all gaining similar votes, way ahead of the rest of the candidates.

1922 was also the year in which Stalin was able to decisively take over the party machine. As with other measures introduced by Lenin that were intended to temporarily minimise dissent, the tactic of increasing the size of the Central Committee was seized upon by Stalin who combined it with a leadership-organised slate as a means of securing the election of new more loyal members. This culminated at the Twelfth Party Congress in 1923 (with Lenin absent):

“Nineteen twenty-three was the year of Joseph Stalin's signal breakthrough in setting up a personal political organization in the Party, following his designation as general secretary the year before. Turning Lenin's proposal for an expanded Central Committee to his own advantage, Stalin persuaded the Twelfth Congress to increase the body from twenty-seven to forty. 7 This substantial expansion, together with three vacancies, gave him sixteen slots to fill. Slate making was in evidence once again when the Twelfth Congress came to the election of the Central Committee, though the mathematics of it were covered up by a motion at the Congress to withhold announcement of individual vote totals.

7. Trotsky led the opposition to the proposed expansion, holding out for a small body that could continue to exercise quick day-to-day decision-making authority.” (p.360)

At each succeeding Party Congress up to and including 1927 Stalin increased the size of the Central Committee, thus allowing him to promote yet more grateful party and state functionaries and thereby increase his domination of the leadership:

“The Thirteenth Party Congress of May 1924, was the first to come after Lenin's demise and the open break between Trotsky and the party leadership. It was the occasion for another substantial expansion in the ranks of the Central Committee, this time from forty to fifty-two. While practically all incumbents were confirmed in office. 9

9. One—Lenin—had died; one was transferred to the Central Control Commission, which ruled out Central Committee membership, and one—Karl Radek—was dropped for his activities on behalf of Trotsky.” (p.361)
“At the Fourteenth Party Congress, in December 1925. when Zinoviev broke with Stalin and went down to defeat, the Central Committee was once again substantially enlarged—this time by eleven men, from fifty-two to sixty-three. In this manner Stalin continued to build his power base while minimizing the head-on confrontations that would be implied in removing his leading opponents.” (p.362)

“The Fifteenth Party Conference, held in December 1927, a year later than the rules called for, saw the dramatic expulsion of the Left Opposition headed by Trotsky and Zinoviev. The unprecedented number of eight Central Committee members were dropped for oppositionist activity... With the seventy-one members of 1927, the Central Committee had reached a level that was to hold constant through the post-purge Eighteenth Congress of 1939... 121 members and candidate members in total.” (pp.363-364)

Daniels concludes his assessment thus : “Within the short span of five years under Stalin's organizational domination the central leadership body (Central Committee members and candidates) was expanded more than two and a half times and almost totally realigned from an elected group of the articulate and politically popular to a body de facto appointed on the basis of bureaucratic constituencies.” (p.366)

Stalin’s perversion of democracy within the Communist Party of the Soviet Union reached the point at the Seventeenth Party Conference in early 1934 where the only way the delegates could express their feelings in the elections was to cross out the name of the people they didn’t want. This they did in the elections for the Politburo with Stalin receiving 267 negative votes in comparison to the more moderate leader of the Leninigrad Party, Sergei Kirov, who only received 3 negative votes. This result was of course not reported to the Congress delegates.

“The 17th Congress has also been given the name ‘The Congress of the Condemned’ because of 1,996 party members present, 1,108 were arrested, and about two thirds of those executed within three years, largely during the Great Terror. Of the 139 members elected to the Central Committee in the 17th Congress, 98 would be executed in the purges. And of the remaining 41, only 24 would be re-elected to the Central Committee in the 18th Congress.” *

Kirov himself was assassinated later in the year and much of the evidence as well as the motive points to Stalin as having ordered the assassination against Kirov as a popular alternative. The results of the election at the 1934 conference would have not only marked Kirov as a dangerous rival in Stalin’s eyes but also convinced Stalin of the party’s disloyalty to him. It may explain not only the Kirov assassination but the use of it as a pretext for the Great Purge which saw the removal of 850,000 members from the Party, or 36% of its membership, between 1936 and 1938. Many of these individuals were executed or perished in prison camps. “Old Bolsheviks” who had been members of the Party in 1917 were especially targeted. Additional triggers for the purge may have been the refusal by the Politburo in 1932 to approve the execution of M.N. Riutin, an Old Bolshevik who had distributed a 200-page pamphlet calling for the removal of Stalin and their refusal in 1933 to approve the execution of A.P. Smirnov, who had been a party member since 1896 and had also been found to be agitating for Stalin’s removal. The failure of the Politburo to act ruthlessly against anti-Stalinists in the Party combined in Stalin’s mind with Kirov’s growing popularity to convince him of the need to move decisively against his opponents, real or perceived, and destroy them and their reputations as a means of consolidating Stalin and the bureaucracy’s power over the party and the state.

* ‘The Russian Revolution’ by Sheila Fitzpatrick

The Trotskyist Movement And The Slate System

How and why the slate system was adopted by the trotskyist movement would be a very useful subject for study. It could be that it was just carried over with the rest of the democratic centralist model imposed on individual communist parties by the Communist International. Or it could have been stalinist baggage carried into the trotskyist movement when the international left opposition was formed out of so many splits in the communist parties.

Interestingly, there was a reference to its introduction into the British Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP) at its conference in 1950:
“At this conference Healy introduced another novelty - a slate for election to the National Committee. The EC had drawn up this slate and if any delegate wanted to nominate someone who was not on the slate they also had to nominate someone else to be taken off!” (‘The Methods of Gerry Healy’ by Ken Tarbuck, published in Workers News No.30, April 1991, under the pseudonym of "John Walters" and with the title "Origins of the SWP")
Bear in mind that the 1950 conference of the RCP was the one where Healy was able to overcome all his opposition. The slate allowed him to get a Central Committee entirely to his liking. In previous years the RCP had operated a system where the factions in the organisations automatically had a number of seats on the CC according to the level of support they had among the membership. And the faction’s representatives on the CC were decided by the faction themselves. Compare this to the situation in the rare occasions that factions were allowed in the Militant Tendency. Then whether a faction had representatives on the CC and who they were lay in the hands of the majority leadership when they drew up their recommended slate. A completely undemocratic situation.

Red Flag
29th March 2010, 16:10
Marxist-Leninist parties lack internal democracy and act in ways alien to the working class?

Get the fuck out of here! I can't believe it. :rolleyes:

SocialismOrBarbarism
29th March 2010, 16:49
A guy called Pat Byrne wrote an historical piece on the origins of the slate system (http://sites.google.com/a/karlmarx.net/open/topics/democratic-centralism-1/theoriginofthe%E2%80%98slatesystem%E2%80%99), a system often used by Leninist organisations in elections. The argument to defend it usually goes that by this system a "balanced team" can be elected. Pat makes the case that slates are in fact alien to the workers movement, demolishes the need for a slate system as undemocratic and in fact oligarchic (although he doesn't use that term). I would like to hear some opinions on this from members who think the slate system is democratic. Have a nice read:

Much of this is related to streamlining of decision making to accommodate an increasingly large party. The amount of participation on the part of delegates that's feasible changes drastically as you go from a congress of around 120 in 1917 to a congress of nearly 800 four years later. This can help explain Stalin's interest in expanding the CC as well.

vyborg
29th March 2010, 17:28
I think that the slate system has its merits. The article is too mechanic. Of course a group can use a right method in the wrong way. But this is true even for democratic centralism etc.

Benjamin Hill
29th March 2010, 17:33
Much of this is related to streamlining of decision making to accommodate an increasingly large party. The amount of participation on the part of delegates that's feasible changes drastically as you go from a congress of around 120 in 1917 to a congress of nearly 800 four years later. This can help explain Stalin's interest in expanding the CC as well.
The slate system was unknown in the SPD for example, a party much larger than the RSDLP. I don't buy that argument.


I think that the slate system has its merits. The article is too mechanic. Of course a group can use a right method in the wrong way. But this is true even for democratic centralism etc.
What merits? How is the article "mechanic"? How can the slate system be used "right" and what is "wrong"?

You don't bring forward any arguments.

vyborg
29th March 2010, 17:37
I will give an example. A "slate" is a work team, in a marxist organization you dont vote for a man but for a programme and the best team of comrades you deem are able to put it in practice, hence the slate system.

Benjamin Hill
29th March 2010, 17:42
I will give an example. A "slate" is a work team, in a marxist organization you dont vote for a man but for a programme and the best team of comrades you deem are able to put it in practice, hence the slate system.
You merely repeat the argument I already paraphrased in the OP and which is demolished in the article. Any response to that?

vyborg
29th March 2010, 19:22
I dont think the article "demolishes" the slate system. he states something about it and I dont agree. Sp what?

He gave examples about an abuse of the system. But any stalinist party in the world pretended to be democratic centralist, does it mean we must renounce to it?

You can read many articles that "demolishes" democratic centralism, they do not convince me either.

Benjamin Hill
29th March 2010, 20:43
I dont think the article "demolishes" the slate system. he states something about it and I dont agree. Sp what?
Of course you may disagree, that is your fullest right. However, on a discussion board one would expect arguments supporting such an opinion. You have provided none. So, why are you at all responding to this thread if you have no meaningful contribution to it?


He gave examples about an abuse of the system. But any stalinist party in the world pretended to be democratic centralist, does it mean we must renounce to it?
You're dodging. This topic isn't about democratic-centralism, but about slates.


You can read many articles that "demolishes" democratic centralism, they do not convince me either.
Good for you I guess, but it has little to do with this topic.

Die Neue Zeit
30th March 2010, 06:07
Two things:

1) Stalin was recently acquitted re. Kirov.

2) Not all "slate"-based formations are bad:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/democracy-oligarchyi-t119643/index.html


Random selection based on job slotting, the purest form of "slating from below," would make "elders" more replaceable, because the recalls and subsequent random selections would be based directly on the jobs and technical qualifications, and not mere likeability or membership ex officio in the executive body.



That looks like a Lebanese nightmare of a constitution.

Here's the old link on this:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/senatorial-organization-online-t79582/index.html


Given my very vocal stance in recent weeks regarding the need for socialists in advanced countries to organize SPD-style (ie, revolutionaries and real, post-welfarist reformists), would a good start for unity revolve around "senatorial" organization for online and/or print newspapers?

For example, the editorial board would have one pareconist along the lines of Michael Albert, one "market socialist" along the lines of David Schweickart, one generic "democratic socialist" (but one who opposes mere "social democracy"), one liberation-theologist, one Trotskyist, one ortho-Marxist, one "maximalist" (revolutionary demands only, no minimums), one generic Marxist (preferrably a small-r revolutionary Marxist), and maybe even one anarcho-Marxist.

It's just my personal opinion on one tactic towards countering sectarianism, so that no one "eligible" tendency (can't just be literally "two men and a dog," as the Grantites would say) can say that their political positions are being censored from the party press.

The problem with today's slates is that, before they are formally elected (by show of hands or whatever), they are elected de facto by those creating the slates.

vyborg
30th March 2010, 08:42
I re-state the fundamental merit of the slate system that is: marxists are not lonely minds, they work in a group and if you vote single by single you are selecting a casual group.

How can the article deny it? it can.

Voloshinov
30th March 2010, 13:10
I re-state the fundamental merit of the slate system that is: marxists are not lonely minds, they work in a group and if you vote single by single you are selecting a casual group.

How can the article deny it? it can.

So the leadership of the bolsheviks up to 1921 consisted of "casual" members?

vyborg
30th March 2010, 13:44
If you decide the size of the CC, you can predict well in advance who we'll be in with maybe 1 or 2 mistake, so what's the point in not using the slate? A referendum about this or that comrade can be a problem too.

I dont understand this hatred of the slate system.

It is a tool. It is pretty easy to confuse the tool with the process.

It is like when some genius states that if the bolshevik party hadnt vetoed fractions, the stalinist degeneration wouldn't have taken place. This is science fiction..

The slate doesnt change much of your organization. I do think that somewhere it has been over-used to simplify things but it is really a minor point as any grown marxist should know.

Voloshinov
30th March 2010, 17:46
If you decide the size of the CC, you can predict well in advance who we'll be in with maybe 1 or 2 mistake, so what's the point in not using the slate? A referendum about this or that comrade can be a problem too.

I dont understand this hatred of the slate system.

It is a tool. It is pretty easy to confuse the tool with the process.

It is like when some genius states that if the bolshevik party hadnt vetoed fractions, the stalinist degeneration wouldn't have taken place. This is science fiction..

The slate doesnt change much of your organization. I do think that somewhere it has been over-used to simplify things but it is really a minor point as any grown marxist should know.

Some "tools" fortify or weaken bureaucratic tendencies. The abolishment of the right to form factions and the slate system were not a "force" for bureaucratization in themselves , but they undeniably strengthened the whole process.

Benjamin Hill
30th March 2010, 17:56
Two things:

1) Stalin was recently acquitted re. Kirov.

2) Not all "state"-based formations are bad:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/democracy-oligarchyi-t119643/index.html

The problem with today's slates is that, before they are formally elected (by show of hands or whatever), they are elected de facto by those creating the slates.

You meant "slate"-based? Anyway, you're saying that "slates from below" would mean a random selection combined with pre-determined seats in the leadership for a said faction? That would be something different from slates I think, which have a "balanced" team that is elected upon, not randomly selected. We are talking about different things, but I like your idea.


If you decide the size of the CC, you can predict well in advance who we'll be in with maybe 1 or 2 mistake, so what's the point in not using the slate? A referendum about this or that comrade can be a problem too.

I dont understand this hatred of the slate system.

It is a tool. It is pretty easy to confuse the tool with the process.

It is like when some genius states that if the bolshevik party hadnt vetoed fractions, the stalinist degeneration wouldn't have taken place. This is science fiction..

The slate doesnt change much of your organization. I do think that somewhere it has been over-used to simplify things but it is really a minor point as any grown marxist should know.
I note that so far you have tackled zero arguments on why the slate system is bad from the article in the OP and simply keep repeating your baseless statement that slates are ok.

I ask you to refrain from further spamming this thread.

Die Neue Zeit
31st March 2010, 02:28
You meant "slate"-based? Anyway, you're saying that "slates from below" would mean a random selection combined with pre-determined seats in the leadership for a said faction? That would be something different from slates I think, which have a "balanced" team that is elected upon, not randomly selected. We are talking about different things, but I like your idea.

Actually, comrade, I was talking about two different things in my post.

The Lebanese quote for something like editorial committees is separate from the first quote, which is more technocratic.

If the Central Committee needs a specific regional party boss position in one of the seats, the boss who may have been randomly selected beforehand (preferrably not just before the discussion) would have to resign temporarily. If the vote is no, he can go back to his position. If the vote is yes, he and other candidates would be thrown in the lot for the new seat, just in case he's the least qualified of the candidates (for both managing the region and close interaction with Central Committee comrades).

[Less controversy arises if a new technical position, say a scientist position or two, arises.]

vyborg
31st March 2010, 07:46
Some "tools" fortify or weaken bureaucratic tendencies. The abolishment of the right to form factions and the slate system were not a "force" for bureaucratization in themselves , but they undeniably strengthened the whole process.

You have tho demonstrate, with other examples, if the single nomination avoided the victory of the bureaucracy. and this is not the case of course.

on the contrary I agree that the right to form factions does play a role and that's why the left opposition of the 20s always demanded its return

Voloshinov
31st March 2010, 09:16
You have tho demonstrate, with other examples, if the single nomination avoided the victory of the bureaucracy. and this is not the case of course.

on the contrary I agree that the right to form factions does play a role and that's why the left opposition of the 20s always demanded its return

The slate system made it possible to introduce new, technocratic elements (= stalinist loyalists) into the CC by simply adding them to a list of which everyone knew it would be approved by a large majority vote. As stated before, the real problem of the slate system is that election becomes selection by those in charge of composing the list. Perhaps it's indeed more "efficient" that person X is on the list instead of Y. But in reality these decisions reflect a lack of politicization from the part of the voters if they have to be "directed" towards a certain outcome.

Die Neue Zeit
2nd April 2010, 16:08
Here's an application of the randomly selected job slotting that I think really needs discussion for connecting with workers: labour experts.

Say what you will about Peter Rachleff's anti-Bolshevism, but I think he is a labour expert. Schoolmastery in labour history and at least key aspects of current labour studies is a must, followed by a sufficient grasp of political economy (neither "economics" even in the "labour economics" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_economics#Criticisms_of_labour_economics_an d_recent_research) form, nor "sociology").

vyborg
2nd April 2010, 16:50
The slate system made it possible to introduce new, technocratic elements (= stalinist loyalists) into the CC by simply adding them to a list of which everyone knew it would be approved by a large majority vote. As stated before, the real problem of the slate system is that election becomes selection by those in charge of composing the list. Perhaps it's indeed more "efficient" that person X is on the list instead of Y. But in reality these decisions reflect a lack of politicization from the part of the voters if they have to be "directed" towards a certain outcome.

This could be true but in theory. What if comrade X cannot work with comrade Z and yet they are both selected? Yes we are all grown up people, revolutionary etc etc, still a team is a team, and you must have the best people in any field. sometimes they dont go well togethere, some other times you dont need all "attackers" or "defenders" to use a football analogy.

We could go on imagining othere theoretical situation where slate is better than voting one by one or vice versa.

As I said, the thing that i do not share with the article is that states in absolute that slate system is bad. I dont buy this.

Edith Lemsipberg
3rd April 2010, 10:44
Vyborg defence of the slate system is based around the concept of 'the team'. It sounds very nice - a positive spin. But lets get to substance.
Firstly, the slate is presented to be voted on en-bloc. It would be quiet easy for 'the team' to present themselves as individual candidates each of which supports (lets call it 'the unity leadership' ticket). This is alongside any other sets of individuals on differing tickets or indeed single individual not tied to others.
BUT voting is for each indvidual. Hence a 'team' could be elected or not - depending on the democratic will of the membership.
What is critical is the criticism made in the original posted article. That the slate system perpetuates a leadership - it has in inbuilt organisational bias.
Vyborg never addresses this issue, but presents us with the spin of 'the team'

vyborg
3rd April 2010, 17:16
If the party leadership is degenerated (as in stalinist party) no matter what system you will use, slate, individual vote, primary election, whatever, the leadership will do anything to preserve itself. The point I try to hammer home is that it is not true that the slate system makes more likely the degeneration. My opinion is that there is no connection whatsoever between the slate system and the degeneration of a party that is a far more complex process.

Benjamin Hill
3rd April 2010, 17:32
If the party leadership is degenerated (as in stalinist party) no matter what system you will use, slate, individual vote, primary election, whatever, the leadership will do anything to preserve itself. The point I try to hammer home is that it is not true that the slate system makes more likely the degeneration. My opinion is that there is no connection whatsoever between the slate system and the degeneration of a party that is a far more complex process.
You're not "hammering home" anything really, simply because you simply provide no arguments. Instead you're trying to win the argument in the way kids are: "is to! - is not!".

Anyway, for the point you're repeating here - that there is no connection between structure and politics - I dare say it is a complete mechanical way to look at this question.

We don't need to be continually reminded of the point that no organisational layout can guarantee against degeneration. I think we all agree with this. But I think it would be a mistake to extent that logic to claim that the organisational structure question is irrelevant. For example I feel that the conflicting perspectives in the CWI would have inevitable led to a crisis in that organisation in the late 1980's early 1990's. But this crisis did not have to inevitably lead to a split. The split came about because the mistaken internal life of the organisation made it impossible for a proper internal discussion and testing of the ideas of the various groupings within the organisation and because of the leadership of both factions saw organisations as monolithic formations in which the leaders were always right about everything and always knew everything.

The second aspect, which has also been pointed out by several users now, is that the leaderships are effectively untouchable by the membership. When was it for example that there was a leadership recalled in the IMT? I think the answer is never. The leadership simply puts forward a slate in which they put the persons which they feel comfortable working with, i.e. excluding "troublemakers".

vyborg
3rd April 2010, 17:44
I agree. Internal life and structures are very important. The point is, however, does the slate system make really a decisive difference?

I think that the split between CWI and IMT in 1991 was very difficult to avoid at that time. Reducing this impossibility to the slate system would be a mistake. But I agree that the tendency at that time was not very used to discuss. We simply were used to think that whatever came out from the british leadership was perfect as was coming out from Marx or Trotsky.

As for the leadership of the IMT. In 1991 the most prominent leaders in the split were Taaffe and Woods. They still are the most prominent leaders, simply, I believe, because they are the best the two organizations have.

Edith Lemsipberg
3rd April 2010, 18:40
I think Vyborgs last post is a bit more considered than normal, there's elements of considering a balance between factors - well done.
But I'm afriad I can't see anywhere where someone said the problem was reduced to the slate system. Rather the comments by Ben Hill, for example actually say it was part of the picture, not the whole picture. There is a difference, you can approch questions in a positivistic way - isolating each factor and attempting to divine meaning from it. Or indeed dialectically attempt to look at the totality (as far as practically possible)

Tower of Bebel
3rd April 2010, 20:19
I'm playing the devil's advocate here. But anyway...

Because of the slate system (and other such practices that are concerned with "balanced teams" or "systems") parties without official tendencies, even parties that don't allow tendencies, all actually have a 'tendency': it is the leadership. It gathers, meets and discusses frequently in order to define and determine the tactics and ideas it will defend in front of the party on banch meetings and congresses. This tendency's reason d'être is the need to keep a certain practice, emboddied by the respective 'socialist' or 'communist' party, in existence at times when there are no, or almost no other, means available for a healthy socialist praxis. I.e. when the class struggle is at low ebb and therefor the working class organization based on genuine discussion and different tendencies nonexistent.

The existance of dozens of such organizations, claiming to be Marxist, socialist, etc., means we are living in a period of modern 'sects'. Instead of the immaturity of socialist theory and socialist praxis, in the form of 19th century sects (because the working class was still developing) we see other, more modern reasons; namely the destruction of the old political workers movement. In both cases however, the immaturity of the working class to act (politically) in its own interest and on its own behalf is determinant.

Pete Process
4th April 2010, 08:39
A Challenge to the Socialist Party England and Wales
I've had a look at the article on karlmarx.net and the discussion in this thread. Some references have been made to the CWI. What is the the internal life of the Socialist Party like now? Are there factions, a lot of internal debate. Is the Central Committee still elected by a slate
Or are things different from what people have said it was like in the past?

vyborg
4th April 2010, 10:34
I think Vyborgs last post is a bit more considered than normal, there's elements of considering a balance between factors - well done.
But I'm afriad I can't see anywhere where someone said the problem was reduced to the slate system. Rather the comments by Ben Hill, for example actually say it was part of the picture, not the whole picture. There is a difference, you can approch questions in a positivistic way - isolating each factor and attempting to divine meaning from it. Or indeed dialectically attempt to look at the totality (as far as practically possible)

I completely agree on this line. The slate system, in a given situation, can worsen the problem.That's all.

I will give another example. Does the existence of the role of "general secretary" of a bolshevik organization helps it to degenerate?
When Sverdlov died, was subtituted by Stalin and this of course was a bad mistake but who believes that with Sverdlov alive and Stalin not general secretary the degeneration could be avoided is completely mistaken. Having said that, I have ween many exemples where the role of GS was bad and I would say, it is not necessary to have one.

As for the "equilibrium". I have no problem at all to aknowledge a good comrade when I see one, wherever he is active. And many leaders of the CWI are very good, also because they had a very good teacher, Ted Grant, even if the politics they follow in many countries is wrong in my opinion

Benjamin Hill
4th April 2010, 14:55
A Challenge to the Socialist Party England and Wales
I've had a look at the article on karlmarx.net and the discussion in this thread. Some references have been made to the CWI. What is the the internal life of the Socialist Party like now? Are there factions, a lot of internal debate. Is the Central Committee still elected by a slate
Or are things different from what people have said it was like in the past?
The CWI and IMT are virtual carbon copies from each other. Factions are seen as "undesirable" and something to be "fixed" as soon as possible. CC's are elected by slate.

Tower of Bebel
4th April 2010, 16:17
Actually, so called "permanent" factions are undesirable. Which means that factions are supposed to be very, very temporary. in Peter Taaffe's Socialism and Left Unity the idea of permanent factions is answered with the following hypothesis: "Sometimes, it's better for a separation to take place in order that difference ideas, programmes and tactics can be tested out before audiences of workers and young people. This of course then presupposes collaboration, an element of the united front [...], is employed by separate organizations".

Nevertheless, I've never seen a tendency nor a not-so-permanent faction before.

Benjamin Hill
4th April 2010, 22:30
Actually, so called "permanent" factions are undesirable.
Why? The RSDLP had two factions for a prolonged time and it worked for them.

Factions, furthermore, are characterised by vying for power. This is often not achievable over a short "very very temporary" period.