Cliques, subcultures and the rise of new classes

[AK]

I was talking to my friend about two months ago, but the thought only occured to me now. She said that a classless society would be impossible because people will always classify each other. This being me when talking to someone else (who is, in this case, not very knowledgable or interested in politics and the like) about my ideas, I didn't explain to her how classes are only defined by relation to production. But it raises a question:


Is it possible for new classes to arise under socialism (or even communism)? The only way I can think of this would be dodgy allocation of the means of production...somehow.
Is it possible that cliques or a mass of members of a subculture (emos, punks, metros, metalheads, etc.) could rise to the status of classes and maybe even perpetrate some new sort of "class war" against each other? I don't see the point. I don't really know why they'd want to; seeing as though they will not benefit from it. But could it be possible?

Or would socialism bring an end to most (if not all) divisions and struggles between members of society? Remember that, in the past, people have found all sorts of ways to differentiate themselves from others (race, nationality, ethnicity, religion - and not to mention class) - ignoring the fact that these divisions were mainly caused by rulers and leaders.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think you answered your own question. I'm sure that problems or situations we can not anticipate will have to be dealt with by workers in socialist society or people in a communist society that we can not foresee at this point. However, I don't think subcultures trying to position themselves as a new class would be one of them - that is if it really is a classless society.

As you said, many of the major divisions in modern society can be directly linked back to the ruling class. In the US, laws against black slaves and later black freemen are evidence of the construction of second-class status for blacks. Similarly, the oppression of women can be historically linked to attempts by the ruling class to promote their hegemony over society.

But even in the divisions that are more "spontaneous" - or at least can not be directly linked to any conscious attempt by our rulers to divide the ruled - the nature of modern society is responsible.

Working people in capitalist society are forced to compete with each-other in most areas of our lives: in politics, groups often fight against each other for scraps, in communities, different groups compete over turf due to a general lack of control over our own lives. In addition because many workers have an insecure hold over major needs in their lives (house, income, free-time) this competition also spills over into non-economic parts of our lives. So surfers might fight other beach-goers or out of town surfers to gain a sense of control as well as secure they best of limited public beaches. Music-based sub-cultures blame eachother for lack of clubs or shows and may also fight over turf like mods and rockers back in the day. Gangs obviously fight over turf and aside from the obvious economic drive to control local black markets (which isn't even always the case with gangs), they are essentially fighting to gain some control and a sense of security.

So I don't think social or cultural differences would be gone when capitalism is eliminated, I think workers will need to combat social inequality and the hold-overs of divisions in the working class (sexism, racism, homophobia). But the remaining sub-cultures and groups based around shared interests would have no material reason for warring with other sub-cultures. In fact, since their ability to organize their sub-culture around shared interests would be improved and dependent on a more free society, they would probably have a material interest to make sure that that society remains intact.

[AK]

I think you answered your own question. I'm sure that problems or situations we can not anticipate will have to be dealt with by workers in socialist society or people in a communist society that we can not foresee at this point. However, I don't think subcultures trying to position themselves as a new class would be one of them - that is if it really is a classless society.

As you said, many of the major divisions in modern society can be directly linked back to the ruling class. In the US, laws against black slaves and later black freemen are evidence of the construction of second-class status for blacks. Similarly, the oppression of women can be historically linked to attempts by the ruling class to promote their hegemony over society.

But even in the divisions that are more "spontaneous" - or at least can not be directly linked to any conscious attempt by our rulers to divide the ruled - the nature of modern society is responsible.

Working people in capitalist society are forced to compete with each-other in most areas of our lives: in politics, groups often fight against each other for scraps, in communities, different groups compete over turf due to a general lack of control over our own lives. In addition because many workers have an insecure hold over major needs in their lives (house, income, free-time) this competition also spills over into non-economic parts of our lives. So surfers might fight other beach-goers or out of town surfers to gain a sense of control as well as secure they best of limited public beaches. Music-based sub-cultures blame eachother for lack of clubs or shows and may also fight over turf like mods and rockers back in the day. Gangs obviously fight over turf and aside from the obvious economic drive to control local black markets (which isn't even always the case with gangs), they are essentially fighting to gain some control and a sense of security.

So I don't think social or cultural differences would be gone when capitalism is eliminated, I think workers will need to combat social inequality and the hold-overs of divisions in the working class (sexism, racism, homophobia). But the remaining sub-cultures and groups based around shared interests would have no material reason for warring with other sub-cultures. In fact, since their ability to organize their sub-culture around shared interests would be improved and dependent on a more free society, they would probably have a material interest to make sure that that society remains intact.
There has been alot of anti-Emo violence recently. And I can tell you that here in Australia, nearly every single subculture hates each other. Speaking of subcultures, would any new ones arise in a socialist or communist society? As they only existed to create a profit from different types of music and their respective clothing and hairstyles and all...

[mikelepore]

Is it possible that cliques or a mass of members of a subculture (emos, punks, metros, metalheads, etc.) could rise to the status of classes and maybe even perpetrate some new sort of "class war" against each other? I don't see the point. I don't really know why they'd want to; seeing as though they will not benefit from it. But could it be possible?

I don't understand how you are using the word "class." I don't know what "emos, punks, metros, metalheads, etc." are, but I understand them to be subcultures.

But class has to do with controlling the material means of life for others, controlling things that other people must rely on for their material survival. Can the emos control the jobs or apartments, while the punks have to work in those jobs or live in those apartments? Otherwise, I don't see any class distinctions being involved.

You said "differentiate themselves", but class isn't about differentiating. On the contrary, it's people who are in the same class who usually differentiate themselves. The Ku Klux Klan and their black victims are in the same class, namely, the class that is "got a job as a response to not being born wealthy". Class isn't related to what you think or say.

[Wanted Man]

Two things:


I was talking to my friend about two months ago, but the thought only occured to me now. She said that a classless society would be impossible because people will always classify each other. This being me when talking to someone else (who is, in this case, not very knowledgable or interested in politics and the like) about my ideas, I didn't explain to her how classes are only defined by relation to production. But it raises a question:


Is it possible that cliques or a mass of members of a subculture (emos, punks, metros, metalheads, etc.) could rise to the status of classes and maybe even perpetrate some new sort of "class war" against each other? I don't see the point. I don't really know why they'd want to; seeing as though they will not benefit from it. But could it be possible?

Well, you did answer her concern here. Class does indeed have to do with your relation to production, not with the fact that you choose to listen to metal or hip hop.

So if they are not classes, how can they wage "class war" against one another? Could it be possible? I dunno, does anyone here have the ability to predict 100% of the future? The closest answer would probably be, "not bloody likely", for reasons explained by Jimmie and others.

One thing that could bring us closer to an answer: you mentioned "mass of members of a subculture". But are members of subcultures organised massively? Not to my knowledge. They just tend to cling together in little groups in school, with all the usual conflicts that go along with growing up. The supposed "anti-emo violence" should be seen in light of that, because claims of such a thing seem highly exaggerated to me.

[AK]

I already stated that I meant "What if subcultures could rise to a status similar to that of a social class?". That means that they would be very large in number and have a potential to organise themselves against other large groups.


One thing that could bring us closer to an answer: you mentioned "mass of members of a subculture". But are members of subcultures organised massively? Not to my knowledge.

But what if they were?

Then again, I am talking hypothetical bullshit :lol:

[Raúl Duke]

There has been alot of anti-Emo violence recently. And I can tell you that here in Australia, nearly every single subculture hates each other. Here in Florida, either people are homogeneous or people just don't make a big fucking deal about other people's sub-cultural tastes.

I doubt that anti-emo or anti-whatever subculture will ever become an actual big issue. Plus, if a revolution did occur and the social relationships changed than we will see a shift in culture (whether big or subtle).