Bombing in Athens

[Antifa94]

Athens Bombing Kills One, Injures Two: Police
By REUTERS
Published: March 28, 2010
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Filed at 7:18 p.m. ET

ATHENS (Reuters) - A 15-year-old boy was killed and his mother and sister injured late Sunday after a bomb exploded outside a building in central Athens, police said.

Bomb attacks by militant leftist groups are frequent in Greece and usually target police, public buildings or businesses. Sunday's explosion was the first in years to kill someone. Urban violence increased in the country after the police shooting of a teen-ager in December 2008.

"A bomb exploded, we have one dead, a man who was dismembered, and two injured, a woman and her daughter," a police official said.

Police later said the dead person was a 15-year-old teen-ager and that the injured women, were his 44-year-old mother and 11-year-old sister.

"The woman, who was slightly injured, and the girl, whose injuries were more serious, have been taken to hospital," said the police official who declined to be named.

Police said the victims were Afghan immigrants.

The bomb, which went off outside an association for business management, also damaged cars and adjacent buildings. Police cordoned off the area and anti-terrorism police were investigating the scene.

"There was no warning, there was nothing," a second police official said.

Several suspected members of guerrilla groups have been arrested in recent months.

Self-proclaimed guerrilla group Fire Conspiracy Cells claimed responsibility on March 22 for three small-scale bomb attacks against police and a far-right group.

Urban violence last caused the loss of human life in June 2009, when Rebel Sect, another guerrilla group, claimed responsibility for the killing of an anti-terrorism policeman.

[Charles Xavier]

blank

[Antifa94]

Some of the bombings should be condoned, like the one on the J.P.Morgan one.
some of the bombings may have been by provocateurs, the rest hopefully by militant groups. It's a shame that children died.

[Axle]

Tragic. More care needs to be taken in order to not harm innocent civilians like this.

[RedStarOverChina]

That's pretty senseless. The media will try to pin this one on us for sure.

[The Douche]

Shit.

[RadioRaheem84]

yeah. this isn't good, and reeks of a covert op.

[Ravachol]

I bet my balls it's the work of state-sponsered fascist militant groups affiliated with Golden Dawn.

Think about it: the target is a 15-year old immigrant child, what could be more of a PR disaster for the left?
One studying the modus operandi of the urban guerilla groups (Revolutionary Struggle, Conspiracy of the Cells of Fire, etc) should note most have gone out of their way to prevent casualties unless specifically targeted (in which case gun-based assasinations were used). The bomb attack on the Golden Dawn HQ was orchestrated in such a fashion that harm to persons was minimised.

Also, recent international public intelligence reports noted that a large ammount of public support for the urban guerilla groups was derived from their ability to avoid innocent casualties.

The Greek state, noted for it's use of a fascist militias (they founded Golden Dawn under order of the Junta and they equipped fascist militias during the December '08 and '09 riots) wouldn't back down from using lethal force against it's own people if it served false-flag purposes.

Agent provocateurs, whether fascistis posing as left-wing groups (remember the Bologna Station bombing by the fascist Nuclei Armati Rivoluzionari was attributed to the Marxist-Leninist Brigatte Rosse) or state-infiltrated and set-up 'left-wing' groups (such as the Belgian cellules communistes combattants), have been used throughout history by the state to discredit left-wing militant groups. The NATO-operated Operation Gladio and it's regional branches (SDRA-8 in Belgium, Sheepskin in Greece, CounterGuerilla in Turkey) ran and infiltrated 'left-wing' groups in order to discredit the armed left by false and unpopular bombings.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Greek state is re-hashing an old tactic.

[Antifa94]

I honestly think that our Grecian comrades will prevail in their struggle against Bankers and fascists.

[The Red Next Door]

This is probably is a terrorist attack by rightist to make it look like, leftists had done. This, but if, you think about it. These only targeting members of the state. so, it have to be a set up.

[Rusty Shackleford]

"There was no warning, there was nothing," a second police official said.

if this is the truth. then the bombers were fucking idiots. its an absolute shame that people were injured and a child died. if the left is responsible, the bombers should be castigated and excluded immediately.

also, i doubt it is a false flag operation by some fascist paramilitary group. it wouldn't surprise me, but dont go thinking that the left is perfect. when explosives are involved its all the more dangerous.


structural damage and the lot is fine, but getting a child killed!?

[RadioRaheem84]

I agree that if a leftist caused this, it should be denounced at once. But I think the left should really into fascist paramilitary groups posing as leftists to discredit the growing movements in Greece due to the crisis.

[Devrim]

These are all police agent fuckers.


That's pretty senseless. The media will try to pin this one on us for sure.


yeah. this isn't good, and reeks of a covert op.


I bet my balls it's the work of state-sponsered fascist militant groups affiliated with Golden Dawn.


This is probably is a terrorist attack by rightist to make it look like, leftists had done. This, but if, you think about it. These only targeting members of the state. so, it have to be a set up.

It could be, but equally so leftist groups do things like this. If you conduct a bombing campaign these things happen from time to time.

The point is that these sort of terrorist actions, if they kill immigrant children or even if they kill a policeman, have nothing to do with class struggle.

Devrim

[Das war einmal]

That's pretty senseless. The media will try to pin this one on us for sure.


Of course. This is gonna cost the demonstrators. This is why coordinated actions are better then senseless violence.

[Das war einmal]

I bet my balls it's the work of state-sponsered fascist militant groups affiliated with Golden Dawn.

Think about it: the target is a 15-year old immigrant child, what could be more of a PR disaster for the left?
One studying the modus operandi of the urban guerilla groups (Revolutionary Struggle, Conspiracy of the Cells of Fire, etc) should note most have gone out of their way to prevent casualties unless specifically targeted (in which case gun-based assasinations were used). The bomb attack on the Golden Dawn HQ was orchestrated in such a fashion that harm to persons was minimised.

Also, recent international public intelligence reports noted that a large ammount of public support for the urban guerilla groups was derived from their ability to avoid innocent casualties.

The Greek state, noted for it's use of a fascist militias (they founded Golden Dawn under order of the Junta and they equipped fascist militias during the December '08 and '09 riots) wouldn't back down from using lethal force against it's own people if it served false-flag purposes.

Agent provocateurs, whether fascistis posing as left-wing groups (remember the Bologna Station bombing by the fascist Nuclei Armati Rivoluzionari was attributed to the Marxist-Leninist Brigatte Rosse) or state-infiltrated and set-up 'left-wing' groups (such as the Belgian cellules communistes combattants), have been used throughout history by the state to discredit left-wing militant groups. The NATO-operated Operation Gladio and it's regional branches (SDRA-8 in Belgium, Sheepskin in Greece, CounterGuerilla in Turkey) ran and infiltrated 'left-wing' groups in order to discredit the armed left by false and unpopular bombings.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Greek state is re-hashing an old tactic.

You know that most of the time I fully agree with your statements. But we need to keep in mind that it might be an accident. If shit like this happens its up to the radical left to investigate this in order to prevent it from happening in the future. Foremost public statements are probably going out to condemn these actions. I'm positive no radical left movement approves of these actions. The coordination of actions is a necessity.

[The Douche]

It could be, but equally so leftist groups do things like this. If you conduct a bombing campaign these things happen from time to time.

The point is that these sort of terrorist actions, if they kill immigrant children or even if they kill a policeman, have nothing to do with class struggle.

Devrim

Why does killing class enemies not have anything to do with class struggle?

[Devrim]

Why does killing class enemies not have anything to do with class struggle?

Because it is not class struggle. If a fascist kills a policeman, is it class struggle? If a policeman is shot in a bank robbery, is it class struggle?

We commented on this in our last article about Greece in English:

http://en.internationalism.org/wr/2010/%252F331/greece


One thing that is distinctive about the situation in Greece has been the proliferation of various armed groups that bomb public buildings but, in the process, create little more than a flaming alternative to mainstream spectacles, while encouraging further state repression. These groups, with exotic names like the Conspiracy of Cells of Fire, Guerrilla Group of Terrorists or the Nihilist Faction, offer nothing to the working class. Workers build class solidarity, consciousness, and confidence through taking part in their own struggles, and developing their own forms of organisation, not through sitting at home and watching bombs set by leftist radicals on TV. The sound of a workers' mass meeting discussing how to organise their own struggle scares the ruling class more than a thousands bombs.

Devrim

[The Douche]

Because it is not class struggle. If a fascist kills a policeman, is it class struggle? If a policeman is shot in a bank robbery, is it class struggle?


But thats not what we're talking about here, we're talking about revolutionary workers, in a time of extremely high class consciousness, recognizing, and attacking their class enemies. Is it not part of the class struggle when the cops kill union organizers? Of course it is, so why do you ignore the class struggle element of the same situation in reverse?

I don't necessarily agree with individual acts of terrorism (well I mean, I agree with them I guess, but I don't think its a valid revolutionary tactic), but I can still recognize its relationship to the class struggle.

[Leo]

I'm gonna go ahead and link to an article on this question: http://en.internationalism.org/ir/014_terror.html

[The Douche]

Thanks, despite the fact that I often find myself in disagreement with the left communists on here I do tend to agree with them on many issues. And I find the ICC to be difficult to read at times, but I do value their input and they may be the only group who's articles I consistently read.

[Palingenisis]

Devrim quoted this from the ICC's press...

"The sound of a workers' mass meeting discussing how to organise their own struggle scares the ruling class more than a thousands bombs."

The problemn is that the ICC is putting a false either/or when infact things can be complimentary. I am sure that many of the armed militants in Greece who I dont know enought about to comment on further must also be involved in "mass struggle". There are also many places in the world where the conditions prevent large scale mass meetings, where the only option for serious class struggle lies in the direction of what could be called "terrorism".

[Omi]

The sound of a workers' mass meeting discussing how to organise their own struggle scares the ruling class more than a thousands bombs.

Im pretty shure the working class taking up armed struggle alongside a wide popular protest and resistance movement scares the sh*t out of the ruling class.

If this bombing is done by leftists, it should be condemned. But I have a strong suspicion it was carried out by state sponsored fascists or state agents.

No matter whoever it was, I hope the Greek left can overcome the media propaganda that's going to be spread over this.

[RadioRaheem84]

The bombing in Athens.

The bombing in Moscow

The right wing attempts on police officials and growing vandalism/violence in the US

You can be sure that the media will try to spin this as an attack on civil society and equate "far" leftists with Islamic extremists.

[Palingenisis]

The bombing in Athens.

The bombing in Moscow

The right wing attempts on police officials and growing vandalism/violence in the US

You can be sure that the media will try to spin this as an attack on civil society and equate "far" leftists with Islamic extremists.

Devrim is right when he says that armed struggle will always result in things like this happening from time to time. The fact is also that there are nihilistic and even psychopathtic tendencies in both the Islamic and the Left resistance. The idea that only the "ruling elite" are capable of such deeds or that (which amounts to the same thing) all violent acts that go wrong are "false flags" is idealistic.

[RadioRaheem84]

Devrim is right when he says that armed struggle will always result in things like this happening from time to time. The fact is also that there are nihilistic and even psychopathtic tendencies in both the Islamic and the Left resistance. The idea that only the "ruling elite" are capable of such deeds or that (which amounts to the same thing) all violent acts that go wrong are "false flags" is idealistic.

I am not denying this one bit. I am sure of it as the Red Brigade in Italy, the Japanese Red Army, ETA and more. I was just saying that the media will capitalize on this to denounce all sorts of leftist ideas as "extreme" or "far" left as a result. They'll conflate any "far" leftist ideal, i.e. to the left of social democracy, with terrorism.

All bombings of civilians should be condemned by leftists.

[revolution inaction]

The conspiracy of the cells of fire has released a statement about this bombing.

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2010/03/29/227-statement-by-the-conspiracy-of-cells-of-fire-regarding-last-nights-explosion/


#227 | Statement by the conspiracy of cells of fire regarding last night’s explosion

Rough translation; original on Athens IMC (http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=1148858).
The past 24 hours find us in an extreme emotional antithesis…
On the one hand, great sorrow for the death of the 15-year old Afghani and the injury of his sister and on the other hand, maximum rage for the reportages of the media which totally arbitrarily and purposefully try to involve our organisation in this event. We are not usually “bothered” by the panic-ridden scenaria of the media, yet the importance of the event forces us to take a public position directly, without a connection to any attack of ours. For this reason we CLEARLY STATE THAT THE CONSPIRACY OF CELLS OF FIRE HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EVENT IN QUESTION. We know only too well that our word against the word of the Anti-terrorist unit does not have the same exposure, since the media, in a paid mission, “photograph” and slander our organisation and our supposed involvement in the explosion in the [neighbourhood of] Patisia [, Athens].
For this reason we turn to every thinking individual, in order for them to understand the dirty game that is being set.
For all the above we declare
First – as we have already written in the communique following our attack against the National Insurance “…the time given for the evacuation of the building was set with knowledge of the number of forces held by the police in the surrounding area. In the future, depending on the geographical characteristics of each area, we will set the time frame for evacuation accordingly. Our aim is material destruction and police are always warned so that they can evacuate each area on time… “. And so, it would be inconsistent and murderously careless for us to place an explosive device in a heavily populated area, without a warning call.
Second – in the case that the phone call to the [corporate TV station] ALTER did indeed take place in the morning of the same day, it would be criminal neglect for us to “abandon” the explosive device for approximately 14 hours with the possible danger of an explosion that would have passers-by as victims. THE RISK WE TAKE AS REVOLUTIONARIES PRESUPPOSES EVEN OUR MAXIMUM PERSONAL EXPOSURE AS COUNTER-BALANCE TO THE POSSIBILITY OF AN ACCIDENT. In plain words, we would neither give a time limit of 6 minutes, knowing it is impossible for an area to be evacuated in such time, nor would we leave a device exposed without us ourselves going, with our personal exposure, to pick it up. This is also part of the claim of responsibility of our choices.
Third – it is our standard tactic , in order to avoid the malfunction of each device, to always place two clocks (and not one, as it has so far been leaked by the media) so as in the case of the malfunctioning of one of the clocks, the second one to operate instead.
Fourth – always, the warning calls that we make are to at least two institutional media in order to avoid any misunderstanding on the side of the phone operators, as well as a possible cover up of the warning call, as has happened in the past to other organisations. Also, there is always a full and detailed description not only of the target where we have placed the device but also a reference to certain roads, the size of the explosive device and the relevant advice for the evacuation and sealing off of buildings (the hotel La Mirage in Omonoia square in the case of the [neo-nazi group] Golden Dawn, the blocking off of both lanes of traffic and surrounding buildings]
Fifth – in the case of the placement of an explosive device at the house of the vice-president of the Greek-Pakistani Union in Patisia, having knowledge of the area and the mobility of migrants in the area, we gave a time limit of 20 minutes to the police and used for this reason, a low-intensity explosives (handmade black gunpowder) and not the explosive material we used at the offices of Golden Dawn or the Police Directorship for Immigrants. Also, it was no coincidence that the explosives were placed outside the storey of flats, not inside – as we wanted to avoid in any case a possible injury of the tenants. Finally, we are no judges, prosecutors or police reporters to reach easy conclusions. At the end of the day, the truth for what happened is only known by the perpetrators of the action. In the POSSIBLE CASE that the particular explosive device was placed by a Revolutionary Organisation then revolutionary dignity dictates a public claim of responsibility with the relevant self-criticism which would clear up the scene, otherwise political anonymity sabotages the revolutionary direction and “charges” an entire strategy, that of the urban guerrilla.
The conclusions are many along with the reminder that if it is really a “blind” attack then it is a very specific political tendency that finds itself to the right of the state and has a special preference for such practices (Piazza Fontana, Italy – explosive device by parstatal extreme-rightists) under certain conditions of social tension.
EVERYTHING CONTINUES…
CONSPIRACY OF CELLS OF FIRE
GUERRILLA GROUP OF TERRORISTS
NIHILIST SPLINTER

[Ravachol]

You know that most of the time I fully agree with your statements. But we need to keep in mind that it might be an accident. If shit like this happens its up to the radical left to investigate this in order to prevent it from happening in the future. Foremost public statements are probably going out to condemn these actions. I'm positive no radical left movement approves of these actions. The coordination of actions is a necessity.

I'm not saying it HAS to be a black op, I know left-wing armed groups have caused accidents (sometimes seeing them as 'collateral damage') in the past and I do not rule out the possibility. But as stated in the communique in this thread, the Modus Operandi does not fit that of the armed leftist groups operating in Greece. Especially in the mediterranian area we should be extra wary of Gladio-like practices.

Take a look at Turkey. The Ergenekon scandal opened a hellhole of conspiracies within conspiracies.
The Turkish 'deep state' (derin devlet) has involvement ranging from segments of the PKK and Hizb-ut-Tahir being run by the Turkish state to ties between the MIT (Turkish Intelligence) and the MHP and Grey Wolves and their international criminal networks to heavy links with Aleksandr Dugin, a Russian Ultra-Nationalist with Nazbol tendencies espousing a pan-Eurasian nationalist vision.

And that's only Turkey. It's not so much a matter of Alex Jones' like nonsense conspiracies, it's simply reactionaries scheming behind closed doors and playing power games which affect workers' struggles.

[black magick hustla]

But thats not what we're talking about here, we're talking about revolutionary workers, in a time of extremely high class consciousness, recognizing, and attacking their class enemies. Is it not part of the class struggle when the cops kill union organizers? Of course it is, so why do you ignore the class struggle element of the same situation in reverse?

I don't necessarily agree with individual acts of terrorism (well I mean, I agree with them I guess, but I don't think its a valid revolutionary tactic), but I can still recognize its relationship to the class struggle.

i think the point is that you cannot blow up a social relationship. you might murder every single cop and capitalist in the face of the earth and capital will still keep functioning

[Qayin]

This was not done by our Greek comrades as we can see by the Guerrillas release regarding this event

Fight on Cells of Fire,arms against the bourgeois state.

[The Douche]

i think the point is that you cannot blow up a social relationship. you might murder every single cop and capitalist in the face of the earth and capital will still keep functioning

Absolutely, you will get no arguement from me there. There is more to revolution than what insurrectionaries like to call "social war".

But, to say that the killing of a police officer by a revolutionary worker is not a "part of the class struggle", seems wrong to me. There is definitely class struggle going on there. I think its ok when people kill cops, I'm not gonna go do it, I'm not gonna say it is "revolutionary" (well I guess I might, in a way), but to say it has nothing to do with the class war would be wrong imo.

[black magick hustla]

Absolutely, you will get no arguement from me there. There is more to revolution than what insurrectionaries like to call "social war".

But, to say that the killing of a police officer by a revolutionary worker is not a "part of the class struggle", seems wrong to me. There is definitely class struggle going on there. I think its ok when people kill cops, I'm not gonna go do it, I'm not gonna say it is "revolutionary" (well I guess I might, in a way), but to say it has nothing to do with the class war would be wrong imo.

I think it is part of the class struggle, even in a very crass unproductive way. In the same sense shooting the whole Romanov family was. I don't think people who have stuff about this stuff should condone it though.

[The Douche]

I think it is part of the class struggle, even in a very crass unproductive way. In the same sense shooting the whole Romanov family was. I don't think people who have stuff about this stuff should condone it though.

Right, its just, dev said:


Because it is not class struggle. If a fascist kills a policeman, is it class struggle? If a policeman is shot in a bank robbery, is it class struggle?

And I think it cearly is part of class struggle, just not an effective strategy.

[black magick hustla]

Actually shooting the whole Romanov family was a political necessity (rather than just crass rage) but you get what I say.

[Devrim]

Devrim is right when he says that armed struggle will always result in things like this happening from time to time. The fact is also that there are nihilistic and even psychopathtic tendencies in both the Islamic and the Left resistance. The idea that only the "ruling elite" are capable of such deeds or that (which amounts to the same thing) all violent acts that go wrong are "false flags" is idealistic.

This is true. Things go wrong:


Security operations in Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey) and elsewhere have weakened the group, however. DHKP/C did not conduct any major attacks in 2003, although a DHKP/C female suicide bomber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_suicide_bomber) Sengul Akkurt's explosive belt detonated by accident on May 20, 2003 in Ankara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankara), in a restroom, while she was preparing for an action. On July 24, 2004, another mistaken detonation, on a bus in Istanbul, occurred, killing Semiran Polat of DHKP/C and three more people and injuring 15 others.


I remember these two cases because they occurred within about a year of each other. In the first one, the girl was in the toilet of a bar, some police man came in for entirely unconnected reasons and she panicked and accidentally blew herself up. In the second the guy was on the way to the target on the bus, and the bomb went off by accident.


These things happen, and there are much worse 'accidents' than these.


Also as is pointed out there are sometimes also genuine psychopaths who end up in these groups.


I think if you advocate this type of strategy you have to accept that this is its logical outcome, and it will happen from time to time.


Devrim

[Devrim]

Thanks, despite the fact that I often find myself in disagreement with the left communists on here I do tend to agree with them on many issues. And I find the ICC to be difficult to read at times, but I do value their input and they may be the only group who's articles I consistently read.

Yes, so do I, sorry.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Im pretty shure the working class taking up armed struggle alongside a wide popular protest and resistance movement scares the sh*t out of the ruling class.

I don't think so. It might scare a few people on an individual basis, but it offer no threat to their rule and for every Louis Mountbatten there are dead 644 civilians. Also it serves the ruling class in other ways. In the case in justifying increased repression against striking workers.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Take a look at Turkey. The Ergenekon scandal opened a hellhole of conspiracies within conspiracies.
The Turkish 'deep state' (derin devlet) has involvement ranging from segments of the PKK and Hizb-ut-Tahir being run by the Turkish state to ties between the MIT (Turkish Intelligence) and the MHP and Grey Wolves and their international criminal networks to heavy links with Aleksandr Dugin, a Russian Ultra-Nationalist with Nazbol tendencies espousing a pan-Eurasian nationalist vision.

And that's only Turkey. It's not so much a matter of Alex Jones' like nonsense conspiracies, it's simply reactionaries scheming behind closed doors and playing power games which affect workers' struggles.

One of the main things about the whole 'Ergenekon' scandal is that whilst it is true that the deep state in Turkey is involved in these sort of activities and is full of 'unsavoury characters', it is also being used as basically a witch-hunt against enemies of the government.

Secondly, it is also interesting that one of the groups which you refer to 'Ergenekon' having links with, the PKK, is a group supported by many people on this board.

Devrim

[Devrim]

But thats not what we're talking about here, we're talking about revolutionary workers, in a time of extremely high class consciousness, recognizing, and attacking their class enemies. Is it not part of the class struggle when the cops kill union organizers? Of course it is, so why do you ignore the class struggle element of the same situation in reverse?

I don't necessarily agree with individual acts of terrorism (well I mean, I agree with them I guess, but I don't think its a valid revolutionary tactic), but I can still recognize its relationship to the class struggle.


Devrim quoted this from the ICC's press...

"The sound of a workers' mass meeting discussing how to organise their own struggle scares the ruling class more than a thousands bombs."

The problemn is that the ICC is putting a false either/or when infact things can be complimentary. I am sure that many of the armed militants in Greece who I dont know enought about to comment on further must also be involved in "mass struggle". There are also many places in the world where the conditions prevent large scale mass meetings, where the only option for serious class struggle lies in the direction of what could be called "terrorism".

Do you think that these sort of actions have any positive effects on the working classes class consciousness, and ability to organise itself?

Devrim

[Palingenisis]

Do you think that these sort of actions have any positive effects on the working classes class consciousness, and ability to organise itself?

Devrim

In terms of postitive effects on working class conciousness they can be "empowering". The state and capital only give so much ability to organize as they are either forced too or feel is necessary in order to maintain social peace. It is I believe foolish in the class struggle to imprison ourselves within the rules set by the enemy. You are also forgetting that such actions have always been a part of the working class and oppressed organizing themselves. I find it hard to believe that such actions didnt take place during the German civil war also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molly_Maguires

Of course making a principle out of such tactics like the insurrectionist anarchists and romantic revolutionary nationalists do is also idealistic and counter-productive.

[The Douche]

Do you think that these sort of actions have any positive effects on the working classes class consciousness, and ability to organise itself?

Devrim

I think possibly, yes. Property destruction and the black bloc are long criticized tactics, but if we look at Greece now they are being largely supported by the mass of the working class, and many non-anarchist workers are starting to participate in such actions. And honestly, I think most workers are somewhat happy when a bank gets smashed or a cop gets shot, but they don't talk about it, and the more those things happen, the more common place they become, the more it opens up the ability for workers to discuss their relationship to those institutions.

[Ravachol]

One of the main things about the whole 'Ergenekon' scandal is that whilst it is true that the deep state in Turkey is involved in these sort of activities and is full of 'unsavoury characters', it is also being used as basically a witch-hunt against enemies of the government.


True I know the AKP uses the deep state as a pretext to surpress opposition but that doesn't mean the deep state itself isn't a highly reactionary conspiracy. If anything, it's bourgois infighting.



Secondly, it is also interesting that one of the groups which you refer to 'Ergenekon' having links with, the PKK, is a group supported by many people on this board.
Devrim

Oh I know, but that goes for a lot of the armed groups. Whilst I'm somewhat sympathetic to the RAF, I know the 2nd and 3rd generation had been highly infiltrated by the German state. The same goes for Action Directe or the Brigate Rosse.

This doesn't only go for the armed groups however, conventional ML parties (in the Netherlands the MLPN for instance) and other leftist groups have been infiltrated and manipulated as well.

[Tiktaalik]

No way this was done by armed anarchist groups.

Basically every bombing has been done specifically to prevent human casualties - most of these happen at like 4 in the morning when no one's around.

What was the target in this bombing? Conspiracy of the Cells of Fire states they had nothing to do with this and I know that given their incendiary rhetoric when they do attack state and capitalist institutions, they or whatever armed revolutionary groups would have claimed responsibility before the media got wind of it.

This was done to smear the image of revolutionary anarchists in Greece.

Solidarity with all victims and survivors of right-wing carnage!

[Devrim]

No way this was done by armed anarchist groups.

I am not really interested in whether they are 'anarchist' or not. To be honest I don't really see any difference between armed 'anarchist' or 'Lenininst' groups. Their practice a mode of operation defines them more than their ideology.


This was done to smear the image of revolutionary anarchists in Greece

Whether this act was committed by anarchists, other leftists fascists or the state, all groups planting bombs occasionally have these sort of accidents. If you are going to support this type of action, you had better get used to it.

Devrim

[Devrim]

True I know the AKP uses the deep state as a pretext to surpress opposition but that doesn't mean the deep state itself isn't a highly reactionary conspiracy. If anything, it's bourgois infighting.

Yes I think you are right here.




Oh I know, but that goes for a lot of the armed groups. Whilst I'm somewhat sympathetic to the RAF, I know the 2nd and 3rd generation had been highly infiltrated by the German state. The same goes for Action Directe or the Brigate Rosse.

Why are you sympathetic to these groups? They don't have much to do with anarchosyndicalism.


This doesn't only go for the armed groups however, conventional ML parties (in the Netherlands the MLPN for instance) and other leftist groups have been infiltrated and manipulated as well.

Yes, of course this can happen. The Bolshevik Party in 1917 had Tzarist agents running its paper. I think that the point is that groups that work within the class and workers struggles aiming to develop open discussion amongst workers and the development of class consciousness are much more difficult to maipulat that tiny armed groups that act in the shadows. It doesn't matter so much if a police spy is running the paper as long as he acts under the direction of the organisation. If he doesn't, you replace him.

Devrim

[Devrim]

I think possibly, yes. Property destruction and the black bloc are long criticized tactics, but if we look at Greece now they are being largely supported by the mass of the working class, and many non-anarchist workers are starting to participate in such actions.

This isn't the impression that I get from Greece at all. On the contrary I think that one of the striking things about the events in Greece is the lack of links between workers and the 'anarchist movement'. During the events in the winter after that boy was murdered by the police, there was only one strike by workers against police violence despite the fact that there was a lot of workers struggle at the time.

I think the black bloc and property destruction are rightly criticised tactics because they don't really lead anywhere. The important thing for workers is to develop their struggles, which can only be done by taking charge of them themselves. I don't see how fighting the police or damaging property will help to develop this. On the contary they act as diversions from the main question. That is not to say that violence against the police isn't necessary at some points, but it is not what will push the movement forward.

Devrim

[Devrim]

In terms of postitive effects on working class conciousness they can be "empowering".

I don't think that it is 'empowering'. I think that people taking control of their own struggles is. Armed groups offer the same relationship to class struggle as bourgeois politics. It is something that workers watch on TV, not actions they take themselves.


The state and capital only give so much ability to organize as they are either forced too or feel is necessary in order to maintain social peace.

But surely in moments of social conflict the working class can make its own space. This relates to an earlier point you made:


There are also many places in the world where the conditions prevent large scale mass meetings, where the only option for serious class struggle lies in the direction of what could be called "terrorism".

If you look at the examples of the mass strikes in Iran in 1979, and Poland in 1980, they both occurred in places where 'conditions prevent[ed] large scale mass meetings', yet the mass meetings still took place.


You are also forgetting that such actions have always been a part of the working class and oppressed organizing themselves. I find it hard to believe that such actions didnt take place during the German civil war also.

Certainly they did, but there is a difference between actions undertaken by masses of workers, and bombs planted by tiny groups.

Devrim

[FSL]

In case people didn't know it there have been dead civilians by terrorist attacks here before. One for November 17th (now defunct) and another from an organization called Revolutionary Cells that dissolved itself after that.

So regardless of whether this was really their bomb or not, among the other things that make terrorism ineffective is that eventually mistakes will happen.



And by the way, I'd like to see some comments on the cells of fire previous statement. Where they said that any ideology that designates a class as revolutionary is akin to racism and that the only thing that matters is people's conscience.

[Wanted Man]

The idea of fascists and/or the state being responsible is quite possible, but that does not change the serious problems with similar bombings by "anarchist" or "marxist" groups playing at urban guerrilla. Their actions are also designed to terrorise the population, and they can also kill children, accidentally or otherwise.

If anything, the more brutal terrorism they use, the more plausible deniability is established for similar bombings by the state and/or fascists. If a significant amount of people believe that this was the work of "left" terrorists, then all the denials (coupled with the usual Dungeons and Dragons "agents of chaos", "nihilistic cells" stuff no doubt :rolleyes: ) will be quite irrelevant. If a large amount of people can no longer tell the difference between "left" and "right" terrorism, it is partly the fault of the "left" terrorists.


This doesn't only go for the armed groups however, conventional ML parties (in the Netherlands the MLPN for instance) and other leftist groups have been infiltrated and manipulated as well.

As a matter of fact, the MLPN was set up by the secret service from the very beginning. It was founded by a BVD operative, and was only ever joined by a dozen useful idiots. The purpose was to split the communist movement, gain insight into China's policies, and to extort some money from China, which gave it the maoist "franchise".

The BVD also founded the Netherlands-Albania Foundation and the Netherlands-Kampuchea foundation, solidarity organisations for respectively Hoxha and Pol Pot.

(http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/dec/04/jonhenley and http://static.rnw.nl/migratie/www.wereldomroep.nl/actua/nl/nederlandsepolitiek/act20041209_bvd-redirected)

[Devrim]

In case people didn't know it there have been dead civilians by terrorist attacks here before. One for November 17th (now defunct) and another from an organization called Revolutionary Cells that dissolved itself after that.

So regardless of whether this was really their bomb or not, among the other things that make terrorism ineffective is that eventually mistakes will happen.

I agree with this.


And by the way, I'd like to see some comments on the cells of fire previous statement. Where they said that any ideology that designates a class as revolutionary is akin to racism and that the only thing that matters is people's conscience.

All that means is that their ideology fits with their actions, neither has anything to do with class struggle.

Devrim

[Devrim]

If anything, the more brutal terrorism they use, the more plausible deniability is established for similar bombings by the state and/or fascists. If a significant amount of people believe that this was the work of "left" terrorists, then all the denials (coupled with the usual Dungeons and Dragons "agents of chaos", "nihilistic cells" stuff no doubt :rolleyes: ) will be quite irrelevant. If a large amount of people can no longer tell the difference between "left" and "right" terrorism, it is partly the fault of the "left" terrorists.

Yes, it has got to the point here that when there is a bombing we have no idea who did it, and less and less people believe the papers (though a lot still do). Generally the media shout Kurds, but we also have bombings by leftists, Islamicists, the almost certainly the state itself, both main factions. It is hard to know, which bomb is which.

I think this too says a lot about the class content of these sort of actions.

Devrim

[Black Sheep]

Everyone shut up. (i love you all btw)
A group finally took responsibility for the bombing.And it's a nationalist one!:blink:
The police aren't sure if it's genuine or fake (though they werent as suspicious with leftist 'terrorist organizations')

In greek:
http://www.zougla.gr/page.ashx?pid=2&aid=119382&cid=4
here's the shitty translation of google:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zougla.gr%2Fpage.ashx%3Fpid%3D2 %26aid%3D119382%26cid%3D4&sl=el&tl=en

The lunatics express their solidarity with combat 18.

[Ravachol]

Everyone shut up. (i love you all btw)
A group finally took responsibility for the bombing.And it's a nationalist one!:blink:
The police aren't sure if it's genuine or fake (though they werent as suspicious with leftist 'terrorist organizations')

In greek:
http://www.zougla.gr/page.ashx?pid=2&aid=119382&cid=4
here's the shitty translation of google:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zougla.gr%2Fpage.ashx%3Fpid%3D2 %26aid%3D119382%26cid%3D4&sl=el&tl=en

The lunatics express their solidarity with combat 18.

Sounds plausible (without 'wanting' to believe it) as police reports stated that the device used (a pipe bomb-like contraption) had detonation mechanisms similar to those of a bomb used against an autonomous centre last year.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

This is probably is a terrorist attack by rightist to make it look like, leftists had done. This, but if, you think about it. These only targeting members of the state. so, it have to be a set up.

Someone told me once that hitler firebombed his own headquarters. Rightwingers like to do that so they can get away with more.