Some Solidarity?

[Wolf Larson]

I came to post on RevLeft because I had been spending much time online in other more generic political forums spreading and debating socialism. Work has been slow lately so I have more time to spread propaganda. When I'm doing so I try not to be obtuse, rude or angry when the ad homs start [as they always will online] but it became a tad depressing after I hit the wall of reactionary class un-consciousness. The American worker/middle class youth and average poster online is completely lacking a desire to understand socialism [anarchism/communism] let alone join the struggle. Spreading propaganda online always ends up in both liberal and conservative joining together to condemn socialism in it's true revolutionary forms [communism/Marxism/anarchism]. I can't fend off 20 people at once.

My point is, I was expecting to find a sanctuary from the ignorance and ego driven arguing on our forums..... a more organized atmosphere but it's just the internet so it's no big deal I guess. I'm no hippie so don't expect us to all get along but right now some solidarity should be in order. The internet is a great tool - we should use it to argue in order to see where we differ but we should always be aware that expropriation capitalist wealth, abolishing private property or ending capitalism is our shared goal. We've never had the ability to spread and take in information in such a manner until the internet came along. Getting to my point, would it be possible to loosely organize some "propaganda sessions" with some of the posters on RevLeft who have shown they know what they're talking about or have a genuine interest in socialism? I'm talking about basic stuff. Perhaps ten or twenty of us go into one forum at a time to spread the basic message - not to get into too much detail concerning the finer sectarian points of Marxism/anarchism but more so to spread anti- capitalist propaganda/ class consciousness. We've dropped the ball during this capitalist crisis and the establishment has been able to churn out a bunch of reactionaries. I believe we need to counter this BUT not in the streets face to face. That would end up bad. Does it sound like a doable enough idea that we gather together [online] with the goal of spreading class awareness in various political forums?

Perhaps we can talk about what sort of topics to post- what would be most appropriate for mass consumption, which forums to target, how to interact respectfully etc. Basically a loosely organized grass roots propaganda campaign where we drop the sectarian divides and focus on spreading class awareness. Have any of you tried this? Are any of you interested? I'd like to hear some ideas or suggestions. Thanks.

[El Rojo]

Sounds like a viable plan. And I absolutely second the useof the internet as a revolutionary tool. Its one we've never had before, and is damned handy. However, personally, I reckon it would be more beneficial to spread the word in the streets and your local neighbourhoods than on internet forums. You getmore experience as a class agitator, build local solidarity and it generally gives us greater visibility.

If we resrict ourselves to the internet, we will only be regarded as another bat-shit insane fringe group like 9/11 truthers, UFO buffs and sellers of viagra.

I guess the sinthiesis of this is mix of tactics. Use the internet, but don't forget, the streets our ours!

[Wolf Larson]

Sounds like a viable plan. And I absolutely second the useof the internet as a revolutionary tool. Its one we've never had before, and is damned handy. However, personally, I reckon it would be more beneficial to spread the word in the streets and your local neighbourhoods than on internet forums. You getmore experience as a class agitator, build local solidarity and it generally gives us greater visibility.

If we resrict ourselves to the internet, we will only be regarded as another bat-shit insane fringe group like 9/11 truthers, UFO buffs and sellers of viagra.

I guess the sinthiesis of this is mix of tactics. Use the internet, but don't forget, the streets our ours!

Ya, I agree, thanks.

When we're online we should be on here to spread propaganda and learn. It's OK to debate amognst ourselves to see where we differ and what we have in common and for the newer people to learn but most of our time online, I think, should be spent spreading anti-capitalist propaganda.

I just posted a documentary on another forum concerning Jewish Anarchists/the labor struggle and most of the posters replied by saying there was no more class divide/class war [most of them are smug middle class suburban liberals or conservatives]. They think capitalism has created equality and workers are happy. They also ignore the cause/effect of third world conditions. This of course turns into a spiderweb of debate with me on one side and about 50 liberal/conservative constituents on the other. Each point or question they ask needs to be answered and I end up typing for pages and find myself in a position of fending off up to 100 different people. My point is we shouldn't spread propaganda alone when online. I think we should put together teams of about 10 people at a time to visit various forums[in a respectful manner] with the goal of shifting or framing the debates around the class struggle. Debating with them is impossible because to debate both people must know and understand the topic at hand. I find all manner of reactionary who doesn't know the first thing about Marxism/Anarchism/Communism/Socialism and debating them is futile we need to EDUCATE them in a softer manner- more subversive....I find once I mention Marxism or Anarchism people just shut down and refuse to be receptive to anything said. These are the types of things I'd like to talk about in this thread- how to get through to people without stepping on their ignorant ego's and without turning on the McCarthyism switch.

What has worked for you in the past, when or I should say how have you been successful in spreading class awareness? It varies for different people, I don't think there will be one pathway but conservatives may be a lost cause. They're ready to see the worlds problems only difference is most of the conservatives blame it on some communist conspiracy rather than seeing it for what it is- monopoly capitalism. Liberals are also hard to get through to. I think the key is to convince liberals the state is the problem and convince conservatives the private sector is the problem. Most liberals are weary of the private sector but worship the capitalists state and most conservatives are weary of the state but worship the private sector. In the end the capitalist wins because a large part of the population worships the capitalists state and the other part of the population worships the capitalists business ventures. We MUST shift the current way Americans see the world if we're going to "change" anything. I hate using that word now. Obama has ruined the word change ;)

[¿Que?]

I'm down. I tend to rely too much on social theory, though, and I'm weak on just about everything else, such as economics, history, current events, etc. I'm worried I would screw up and make matters worse.

[Wolf Larson]

I'm down. I tend to rely too much on social theory, though, and I'm weak on just about everything else, such as economics, history, current events, etc. I'm worried I would screw up and make matters worse.

I guess different people would warrant different answers/questions which is one reason more people would be necessary. If you feel another person would be more comfortable answering a certain question let another person. We all have our strong/weak points and don't have the time to answer 3,000 questions/criticisms and replies. At least I don't.

There are some capitalists out there online who are interested in history/economics/politics. Most of them are anarcho capitalists, fans of Ayn Rand or totally brainwashed Tea Party people regurgitating generic US history and or economic lies they have been told by their masters. We can "debate" those idiots here in the opposing ideology section and I've found we would be more able to strip the fur from a living tiger. They will never change their minds. I guess I'm thinking of a more subversive way to spread class awareness. Without mentioning the terms Anarchist or Marxist. Without using Marxist language [which they don't understand anyhow]. For instance, what attracted you to the class struggle? For me it was life experience and that can't be propagandized, one would have to work in shitty conditions for years to gain an empirical understanding. A lot of people do but aren't willing to admit it. Most people hate their jobs. I don't know...I've been trying to find a way in...a way to get the Average American to see what's going on and there seems to be so many barriers in the way.

What do you think is keeping so many Americans from joining the class struggle? Is it materialism and the availability of credit/cheep goods? Patriotism? The conservatives are mostly angry, ignorant and mean spirited but the liberals are what bother me more sometimes. They're so smug and patronizing. So hypocritical and mailable. They usually try to say their pragmatists. I'm just getting tiered of being overran by liberals when I'm spreading propaganda online. The conservatives are so pathetic it's to be expected. I guess my point is we need to appeal to workers in a different way- we should find some universal truths, a more generic approach. Try to educate them but without them knowing it. Is it possible?

[CartCollector]

Well, start with the premises of the group that you disagree with. For instance, if you face a group that believes classlessness has been achieved, show them how capitalist society is divided into classes based on relations to the means of production. A fast way of showing this is to ask them how we measure wealth. The wealth of the middle class and working poor is measured by how much they make per year or per hour. Do we measure the wealth of the rich in the same way? In many, many cases, no! We measure the value of what they own.
From this, you can go on to primitive accumulation, and show them why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Then you can ask them whether it's possible to prevent that from happening in our current economy, even with state intervention. Then you can ask them what sort of economy we would need to prevent that, and if they can't think of anything, or they mention state capitalism and complain that it's even worse, you can show them the different types of socialist economies (market socialism, gift economy, democratically planned/parecon, etc). If you don't name them and just describe them, and they support one of them over capitalism, then you can point out that they're supporting socialism!

Start with the premises and go from there. Disprove the premises of a belief and it's left with nothing to stand on.

[Communist]

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Sounds good WL.
Start a user group here and moderate who can come in and join, so if members want in that you already know aren't serious or focused, they can't disrupt the discussions. And you can specifically invite members too.
That's my suggestion anyway.
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[Wolf Larson]

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Sounds good WL.
Start a user group here and moderate who can come in and join, so if members want in that you already know aren't serious or focused, they can't disrupt the discussions. And you can specifically invite members too.
That's my suggestion anyway.
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I'm just getting tiered of spending so much time debating on other forums and unlike here there is no control over trolling or incessant ad homs so it becomes emotionally draining after doing it for a few days straight. There always seems to be a group of "regulars" who control the atmosphere in various forums. They dictate what flies and what doesn't as far as topics. Almost like thought police. Socialism is defiantly taboo on generic political forums.

To the el comendante guy: I know what to say to a person who claims the class struggle no longer exists, I was just giving an example of how far down the rabbit hole average middle class white suburban online America is. Explaining the materialist conception of history is too advanced for most uninterested critics online. It's almost like, online, people put up an ego wall and only come on here to show the world they know it all [and they almost always know nothing about socialism but pretend otherwise]. With attitudes like that, and most internet posters have this attitude, learning or I should say teaching a person something is next to impossible. I'm trying to figure out a way to facilitate class awareness without coming off preachy in ways people's gentle ego's can handle. It's different for every person though. One of the most important things I've learned when spreading propaganda is to remain very civil and almost downright passive or the thread will simply turn into a fire storm of Neo-McCarthyism.

I'm not so much talking about debating tactics here- I'm more so talking about the subversive takeover of other forums. Implant about ten of us and post documentaries....have very civil discussions amongst ourselves as if we don't know each other....catch my drift? Teach people without even having to debate. Focus on one forum at a time with an emphasis on friendliness.

[LethargicAnarchist]

I'm here to learn. When I was in college, I was only interested in getting high, and I blew it. Now I'm trying to use this new freedom of information (the internet) to gather FACTS about history, and understand the virtues & flaws of the various economic & political systems throughout history. It's often hard to decipher facts from propaganda, but I'm learning.
Thanks for the info here.

[Across The Street]

I'm currently working on a documentary with the help of more than a few people which sheds some light on just these topics. Political incompetence, misunderstandings, etc. This could be a possible documentary to show. I usually don't even bother debating with those unreceptive to new ideas, online at least, but your ideas seem like they could turn the tides in a way. The film I'm working on is definitely intended to disrupt some thought processes with a fair amount of blatant critique of the current way of things. It's pretty much the synthesis of the last ten years of mine, as well as others' observation of the collapse of capitalism we're witnessing now. If alternatives aren't provided in a friendly coherent manner it really will be everyman for himself and complete chaos.

count me in