Stalin's Anti-Semitism

[Die Rote Fahne]

I've heard that Stalin was a raging Anti-Semite, that true?

[red cat]

Nope.

[Antifa94]

Not entirely.
Some argue that his animus towards Trotsky lead to a disdain for Jews in general. His anti-cosmopolitan campaign can also be interpreted as anti-semitic, when in fact it seems to be more anti-zionist.

[Nolan]

Only in the minds of some Trots, nazbols, and anti-communists.

[Audeamus]

I am almost certain it was Stalin who said that communists must be "irreconcilable and bitter enemies of anti-Semitism."

[Arti]

No that's not true:

In answer to your inquiry: National and racial chauvinism is a vestige of the misanthropic customs characteristic of the period of cannibalism. Anti-semitism, as an extreme form of racial chauvinism, is the most dangerous vestige of cannibalism. Anti-semitism is of advantage to the exploiters as a lightning conductor that deflects the blows aimed by the working people at capitalism. Anti-semitism is dangerous for the working people as being a false path that leads them off the right road and lands them in the jungle. Hence Communists, as consistent internationalists, cannot but be irreconcilable, sworn enemies of anti-semitism. In the U.S.S.R. anti-semitism is punishable with the utmost severity of the law as a phenomenon deeply hostile to the Soviet system. Under U.S.S.R. law active anti-semites are liable to the death penalty.
J. Stalin "Anti-Semitism: Reply to an Inquiry of the Jewish News Agency in the United States" dated January 12, 1931

[Kléber]

Anyone who ignores anti-Semitism in the USSR is ignorant or cherrypicking the facts.

See this thread.

http://www.revleft.org/vb/showthread.php?t=131607

[Antifa94]

Kleber, just because it existed did not make it officially sanctioned.

[Nolan]

Look at me getting pwned

And it was debunked. Your point?

[Mälli]

Why did so many minorities got killed systematicly under Stalins rule by the way? I've read that he fired all of his personal doctors who were jewish too.

[Kléber]

And it was debunked. Your point?
are you trying to justify the murder of yiddish artists and intellectuals? if all those "rootless cosmopolitans" were "zionist spies" they could have been deported to israel instead of being shot.

Thermidor and Anti-Semitism (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1937/02/therm.htm)

[Nolan]

are you trying to justify the murder of yiddish artists and intellectuals? if all those "rootless cosmopolitans" were "zionist spies" they could have been deported to israel instead of being shot.

Thermidor and Anti-Semitism (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1937/02/therm.htm)

One of the more pathetic ramblings by Trotsky. He fails to prove any that anti-semitist was sanctioned by Stalin. Go back to your prized thread and read Ismail's post.

Now, Kleber, do you have any proof or will you entertain us more?

[Leo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootless_cosmopolitan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Anti-Fascist_Committee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Murdered_Poets

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot

[Muzk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootless_cosmopolitan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Anti-Fascist_Committee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Murdered_Poets

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot


inb4 Stalinist: wikipedia lies!

[Nolan]

In b4 troll!

Edit: Damn, Muzk beat me.

[Comrade B]

I will admit that the night of murdered poets article is somewhat anti-Stalin biased in its wording, but can you really deny that the events happened?

Just because someone who has a bias said it, does not mean that it isn't actually true.

[danyboy27]

i dont think Stalin was anti-semitic the same way hitler and other racist politicians where.

sure, stalin was probably a bigot, but i dont think his bigotry motivated the political move he took.

has far has we know, he would have probably killed all those folks if they where Buddists, muslim, adorator of the clown pavlov etc etc.

He wanted to cleanse his society from a lifestyle he and his friend seen has bourgeois,and from a possible breeding ground for dissent, the race and etnic origin wasnt really an issue for him, all he saw was a threat, so he killed it.

[Comrade B]

and what is your opinion on the murdered poets? You have said why you don't believe the doctors' plot accusations, but what of the other situations?

[black magick hustla]

idk if he was an antisemite but his regime certainly coined the term "rootless cosmopolitan".

[S.Artesian]

If the issue is Stalin's personal view, then it's a non-issue for me. The USSR was bit more than just Stalin's personal views even during the period of his unchallenged authority.

The question of anti-semitism in the USSR is worth discussing. Were Jews discriminated against simply because of their beliefs of Jews? Denied access to social resources-- education, areas of employment, opportunity to work politically simply because they were Jewish?

We need to understand the breadth, depth, and intensity of the anti-Jewish sentiment that existed; and if in fact it was a result, a tool used by the government to maintain power, actively promoted by the government; or if it was a residue of pre-revolutionary time, a residue that the government passively accepted [and enabled, perhaps, in this passivity].

In short, was it institutionalized, like racism in the US, even if not to that degree.

Me? I haven't studied the issue. I have read some things that describe anti-Jewish prejudice in the USSR, but nothing that points to it be institutionalized, or it taking a "persecutory" tone and direction.

Doesn't mean that doesn't exist, just means I don't know.

If the argument is about Stalin personally, that's pretty uninteresting to me. I certainly don't need any anti-Jewish prejudice on his part to oppose the policies Stalin and his allies developed in the USSR, imposed on the 3rd Intl and class struggle globally which aided the disorientation and defeat of the working class in China, Germany, and Indochina after WW2 with the restoration of French colonialism, Chile in the 1973 iteration of the Popular Front.

[Kléber]

Do you enjoy saying random trollish nonsense? what evidence do you base this on?
Lenin said he exhibited traits of a "Great Russian chauvinist bully."


idk if he was an antisemite but his regime certainly coined the term "rootless cosmopolitan".
I think Belinsky had used it to slander individuals whom he felt to have a non-Russian taint.

[Manifesto]

lol I asked Hugs the same thing a month ago and he said this: "The answer to your question is no. In the soviet union under Stalin, active anti-semites were liable for the death penalty. There was even land set up for soviet Jews to practice their Yiddish tradition within a socialist framework. It doesn't surprise me at all that Kruschev put forward these accusations, though; he put forward plenty in his secret speech and they've systematically been debunked."

[Nolan]

lol I asked Hugs the same thing a month ago and he said this: "The answer to your question is no. In the soviet union under Stalin, active anti-semites were liable for the death penalty. There was even land set up for soviet Jews to practice their Yiddish tradition within a socialist framework. It doesn't surprise me at all that Kruschev put forward these accusations, though; he put forward plenty in his secret speech and they've systematically been debunked."

Youtube is fun ain't it.

[Manifesto]

Yes it is and I'm guessing you already saw that.

[Durruti's Ghost]

I can't believe I'm still engaging with this troll, but here goes. Where is the source? Is that quote your evidence of Stalin's alleged bigotry.

I believe this (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1922/dec/testamnt/autonomy.htm) is the source.

[Durruti's Ghost]

If you actually read that, Lenin does not call Stalin a "Great-Russian chauvinist" anywhere in that

True. However, he does say this:


The Georgian who is neglectful of this aspect of the question, or who carelessly flings about accusations of "nationalist-socialism" (whereas he himself is a real and true "nationalist-socialist", and even a vulgar Great-Russian bully), violates, in substance, the interests of proletarian class solidarity, for nothing holds up the development and strengthening of proletarian class solidarity so much as national injustice; "offended" nationals are not sensitive to anything so much as to the feeling of equality and the violation of this equality, if only through negligence or jest- to the violation of that equality by their proletarian comrades.

Whether or not the Georgian he refers to here is actually Stalin is perhaps somewhat ambiguous, though the MIA certainly thinks that he is and the article as a whole deals largely with Stalin (that is to say, when he refers to someone flinging around accusations of "nationalist-socialism" earlier in the text, he calls Stalin out by name).

[Durruti's Ghost]

He actually criticizes Stalin for having spite against the notorious "nationalist-socialism".

Exactly--and then later accuses an unnamed Georgian who "carelessly flings about accusations of 'nationalist-socialism'" of being "himself is a real and true 'nationalist-socialist', and even a vulgar Great-Russian bully". Is he necessarily referring to Stalin? No, but there is a pretty compelling reason to believe that he is. From what I gather, in the earlier quote, Lenin was criticizing Stalin for having spite against "nationalist-socialism" originating from ethnic minorities in Russia. If that's the case, the later quote makes sense. He's saying that spite against minority nationalism is tantamount to another kind of nationalism, Greater Russian nationalism--much as many modern MLs would accuse those who decry nationalist/national-liberation movements in the Third World of supporting imperialism and the related concept of First World nationalism.

[Durruti's Ghost]

Though it does not prove his allegedly bigotry, that is a valid criticism of Stalin's policies.

I don't disagree, especially given that the "nationalism" of Russian minorities was more often than not merely a desire to regain the autonomy tsarist imperialism had stolen from them. And you're right, it doesn't prove that bigotry was the motive underlying his policies. I don't think such a claim can be proved one way or the other; we can't peer into Stalin's mind.

[Wolf Larson]

Anti Zionist feelings were prevalent at the time as were antisemitic feelings. Many of the capitalists/bankers were in fact Jews or powerful Zionists so many of the anti capitalists foolishly gravitated towards antisemitism. Either way we should avoid people worship. I don't try to defend any of Bakunin's outwardly appearing antisemitic words. In Stalin's case I'd be more concerned with the amount of Russian workers who died under his centralized rule/authority. Stalin wasn't anymore or less "evil" than any leader of any nation. That's the nature of centralized power in a minority elites hands. Bad things happen. Bad things are happening now under Obama. Bad things happened under Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Johnson, Nixon etc...."Bad things" are due to two things- scarcity and hierarchy. Minimize both and we will minimize "bad things".

We shouldn't defend any state which was under the control of some centralized authority nor should we defend the centralized authority which was the state. Especially a state capitalist... Antisemitic or not. Bolsheviks ruined the revolution. The soviets were all about grass roots direct democracy not the communist party. Power was stripped from the people and pushed into some hierarchical shit storm. That was the real problem antisemitism or not.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I will admit that the night of murdered poets article is somewhat anti-Stalin biased in its wording, but can you really deny that the events happened?

Just because someone who has a bias said it, does not mean that it isn't actually true.

Just because it's so horrific within wording that it's hard to think that it didn't happen, doesn't mean it's true. For example: Gulf of Tonkin.

[Chambered Word]

Also:


Thirdly, exemplary punishment must be inflicted on Comrade Orjonikidze (I say this all the more regretfully as I am one of his personal friends and have worked with him abroad) and the investigation of all the material which Dzerzhinsky's commission has collected must be completed or started over again to correct the enormous mass of wrongs and biased judgments which it doubtlessly contains. The political responsibility for all this truly Great-Russian nationalist campaign must, of course, be laid on Stalin and Dzerzhinsky.

I strongly agree with Wolf Larson here. I'm not convinced Stalin was a committed anti-Semite but I do believe he was interested in violently suppressing any kind of dissent.

[Chambered Word]

Nope.


Only in the minds of some Trots, nazbols, and anti-communists.

Grow up. These one-liners without any useful material and little snipes at non-Stalinist communists aren't needed.

[danyboy27]

Do you enjoy saying random trollish nonsense? what evidence do you base this on?

Stalin didnt approved her daughter decision to marry a jews and decided to not show up at the wedding for this verry reason.

Just like a lot of Person who where raised in the late 1800s, He didnt liked the jews.

Name me 1 Politician at this time who wasnt at a certain extent a bigot who hold bad judgement toward a minority?

none. Sadly, Racism and discrimination was common back in the day.

Things changed slightly since, with the developpement of mean of communication and the struggle of minorities.

[Comrade B]

Just because it's so horrific within wording that it's hard to think that it didn't happen, doesn't mean it's true. For example: Gulf of Tonkin.
So whenever someone has a criticism about something, we should just pretend it didn't happen because we would like it to have not happened? If you have evidence it did not happen, I will read it, but otherwise, I will believe that it happened.

[Nolan]

So whenever someone has a criticism about something, we should just pretend it didn't happen because we would like it to have not happened? If you have evidence it did not happen, I will read it, but otherwise, I will believe that it happened.

Um, yeah, that's not what he meant.

[Leo]

Name me 1 Politician at this time who wasnt at a certain extent a bigot who hold bad judgement toward a minority?

Lenin? Other Bolsheviks? Other communists of the 20ies?

[red cat]

Lenin?

Weren't left communists a minority in Russia at that time ?

[The Vegan Marxist]

So whenever someone has a criticism about something, we should just pretend it didn't happen because we would like it to have not happened? If you have evidence it did not happen, I will read it, but otherwise, I will believe that it happened.

Nice not realizing what I meant. I was merely stating that it's quite concerning that people these days take anti-communist propaganda based on faith, as it seems, when it comes to go against people like Mao, & especially Stalin. I don't like Stalin that much, but to go along with the lies that was first started by the Hearst Foundation is beyond logical to me. We shouldn't think that, just because something was so terrible within wording that it must be true. Everyone was positive that the Gulf of Tonkin happened. Even the people who was for Vietnam in the States during the Vietnam war. But then when we were finally given declassified documents that showed us that, in fact, it never took place, it just showed us that we can't take every disaster doctored up by Government intelligence as mere truth.

[danyboy27]

Lenin? Other Bolsheviks? Other communists of the 20ies?

I dont have a lot of information About Lenin life, but if he was not a bigot, its an exception.

Then again, Personnal bigorty in the political sphere really matter if the politician who is a bigot influence the Politics in that dirrection, hitler or Nixon for exemple.

Some people are pragmatic enough to pass trough their own personnal beliefs in order to achieve their ultimate goal, and i believe Stalin was one of these persons.

[Leo]

Weren't left communists a minority in Russia at that time ?

Actually, they had a slight majority in the party and an overwhelming majority in the soviets at their high-point, but that is not really relevant to the point.


I dont have a lot of information About Lenin life, but if he was not a bigot, its an exception.

I would say he was not a bourgeois statesman but an actual communist, despite all of what I consider to be his mistakes, as opposed to the likes of Stalin, Mao etc. rather than being an exception to the rule of bigotry of bourgeois statesmen.


Then again, Personnal bigorty in the political sphere really matter if the politician who is a bigot influence the Politics in that dirrection, hitler or Nixon for exemple.

Some people are pragmatic enough to pass trough their own personnal beliefs in order to achieve their ultimate goal, and i believe Stalin was one of these persons.

Well, as with all countries and all cases, I don't actually think the matter is one of Lenin or Stalin, but of classes, and which class is the dominant one in a particular society. The early years of the Russian revolution saw the legalization of abortion, no-fault divorce and homosexuality. In the 1930s, the now counter-revolutionary Russian state banned abortion, abandoned the no-fault divorce laws and re-criminalized homosexuality, sending those discovered to labor camps. The policies of the Stalinist so-called "Soviet" state also included forced immigration of members of many ethnic groups, often resulting in their deaths. The early years of the October revolution, on the other had seen the workers swearing to never let the national oppression of Tsarist Russia to return. It is not surprising that all these "new" developments, happened in par with the murder of the majority of the militants of the Bolshevik Party of the years of the revolution and party work before, as well as the most militant of the Russian workers - and that all this happened after the soviets, the workers' councils were effectively destroyed as true workers organs.

Lenin, as is quite famous, did think that Stalin was a "Great Russian chauvinist" as well as a "national-socialist". Was Stalin an anti-semite? Was he a bigot against other nationalities? Was he sexist and homophobic? It doesn't really matter. The matter isn't about Stalin the person, but it is the regime he became the face of, which was a regime ruled by a class which had an interest in anti-Semitic, bigotry and homophobia, which was and which had to be a patriarchal and reactionary regime because of the class it was ruled by.

In case anyone has doubts about it - the class in question was not the working class, but the most vicious enemy of it.

[Comrade B]

Nice not realizing what I meant. I was merely stating that it's quite concerning that people these days take anti-communist propaganda based on faith, as it seems, when it comes to go against people like Mao, & especially Stalin. I don't like Stalin that much, but to go along with the lies that was first started by the Hearst Foundation is beyond logical to me. We shouldn't think that, just because something was so terrible within wording that it must be true. Everyone was positive that the Gulf of Tonkin happened. Even the people who was for Vietnam in the States during the Vietnam war. But then when we were finally given declassified documents that showed us that, in fact, it never took place, it just showed us that we can't take every disaster doctored up by Government intelligence as mere truth.I am pretty sure I entirely got what you mean. What I am saying is that I am not convinced that this is just propaganda. I have seen no evidence for it being propaganda, and I have seen evidence for it being real, so I go with the evidence.

The whole "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" tends to be mocked by most people

[S.Artesian]

I was not positive the Gulf of Tonkin happened, as a matter of fact, young cynic that I was, I was sure it didn't happen as reported.

I am absolutely positive that the purges in 1938 initiated by the RCP leadership dramatically impacted the economy, reducing growth and development, and disorganized the military capability of the Red Army. I am also certain that there was no basis in fact for the charges raised against the former political, economic, and military leaders so charged.

[Nolan]

Carry on trolling. Such imbecility.

Lol lex luther

danyboy, can you give us some sources on that?

[Comrade B]

carry on trolling. Such imbecility.
you are in a threat titled " Stalin's Anti-Semitism, and that is what is in question. It is not trolling, it is quite relevant to the topic.


Stalin didnt approved her daughter decision to marry a jews and decided to not show up at the wedding for this verry reason.
I checked out that accusation on wikipedia, but the source cited is a book without a link to the passage; N. Tolstoy, ibib., p. 24.

[Kléber]

The only explanation I've heard for why Yakov Dzhugashvili tried to shoot himself is that his father wouldn't accept his engagement to a Jewish woman.

[Chambered Word]

Carry on trolling. Such imbecility.


Weren't left communists a minority in Russia at that time ?

You two will never learn. :closedeyes:


Well, as with all countries and all cases, I don't actually think the matter is one of Lenin or Stalin, but of classes, and which class is the dominant one in a particular society.

Exactly my thoughts. This is why I think anti-revisionism is a flawed idea because it puts the problem of private capitalist restoration down to a group of individuals instead of their environment and class interests.

[danyboy27]

Lol lex luther

danyboy, can you give us some sources on that?

well, the sources i had where from wikipedia, and after further analysis i found that the guy who wrote the book with those information was
Nikolai Tolstoy, a conservative historian. other sources of these allegation came fromSimon Sebag-Montefiore

it dosnt mean that what they wrote was false tho, so at the moment i am not really sure what to think about it at all, since i didnt read those book, i cant be sure wether or not if those claim are baseless or funded.

see? no need to call me a troll lex luther, all you had to do is to ask nicely.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Kleber, just because it existed did not make it officially sanctioned.

Just like Kirov's death, the purges etc., right? :rolleyes:

OT: Yes, it seems that Stalin harboured some anti-semitic views, even if they weren't at the forefront of his personal ideology. Whilst he was probably no worse than many Socialists at the time, there is no point just defending him on this point. Accept it, move on.