Perhaps useless tactics in Portland

[Ele'ill]

http://portland.indymedia.org/

[willdw79]

It seems cool, its resistance, which is a good thing. I'm not exactly sure what their politics are, but I know that they are anti-fascist and that is commendable always.

[Ele'ill]

It seems cool, its resistance, which is a good thing. I'm not exactly sure what their politics are, but I know that they are anti-fascist and that is commendable always.


This is so scary to see. An enemy of your enemy isn't always a friend- even if it's wrapped up in your political colors.

Their "resistance" is no more than a group of troubled youth skipping school and smashing some shit. They have no goal and their actions alienate the real issues away from those people that actually have ideas that WOULD work to solve the problem of police violence.

It is so fucking easy to put on a mask and dress in black and run around in the street breaking things while running from the police.

How about regular clothes, chains, pvc and a lock down of some highways? Maybe get pepper sprayed over and over again and STILL not budge? THAT takes balls. Not this petty announce what you are about to do so you can be stopped bullshit that accomplishes nothing. FUCK that.

[willdw79]

I didn't realize you were restricted, carry on with your trolling...

[bcbm]

it's portland, what do you expect? at least they managed to do something this time. as i recall, there wasn't much of an anarchist response to previous police murders. would be better if the rage were coming more from the community in general than only the black bloc types.


They have no goal and their actions alienate the real issues away from those people that actually have ideas that WOULD work to solve the problem of police violence.police violence is a problem that cannot be solved in the context of this society. the only way to end police violence is to get rid of the police.

[Ele'ill]

I didn't realize you were restricted, carry on with your trolling...

:rolleyes:

Way to buck out due to lack of content.

If this was a troll attempt it was one of the most legitimately applicable in the history of the internet.

My critique still stands.


it's portland, what do you expect?

I expect critical thought on theory and practice regardless of which hipster town is under the microscope.



at least they managed to do something this time. as i recall, there wasn't much of an anarchist response to previous police murders. would be better if the rage were coming more from the community in general than only the black bloc types.

Some responses are useless and detrimental. A black bloc style response keeps other people away.


police violence is a problem that cannot be solved in the context of this society. the only way to end police violence is to get rid of the police.

And I can say 'the problem is capitalism' but guess what- it's still around. We need systems to deal with the current issues NOW so they happen LESS and work towards other systems of living in the mean time.


Launching direct action against city objects has NOTHING to do with police. Announcing you're about to do it is fucking stupid for obvious reasons. Police violence is a problem that has to be dealt with by the community involving every group in the community.

The two recent fatal shootings by portland police were two entirely different types of situations which none of the anarchist community bothered mentioning. One would be considered legitimate as the suspect was threatening- the other suspect was simply murdered by the police officer. Facts matter.

[bcbm]

I expect critical thought on theory and practice regardless of which hipster town is under the microscope.

you haven't been in portland long, i take?


Some responses are useless and detrimental. A black bloc style response keeps other people away.

i think it depends. there was black bloc action in oakland after oscar grant was murdered, but that didn't keep other people from being similarly pissed off. either way i think a little bit of rage is better than a small rally at pioneer square that nobody pays attention to.


And I can say 'the problem is capitalism' but guess what- it's still around. We need systems to deal with the current issues NOW so they happen LESS and work towards other systems of living in the mean time.

Launching direct action against city objects has NOTHING to do with police.

actually, i think riots and insurrections are one of the few things the underclasses can fall back on to check the power of the police. they're going to be more hesitant about pulling the trigger if they know the community is going to burn and they're the ones who will have to deal with it. this will apply pressure from below as well as above- city hall isn't going to want to deal with that shit either.


The two recent fatal shootings by portland police were two entirely different types of situations which none of the anarchist community bothered mentioning. One would be considered legitimate as the suspect was threatening- the other suspect was simply murdered by the police officer. Facts matter.

actually, those two examples suggest exactly the opposite. the police are killers whatever the situation.

[Ele'ill]

you haven't been in portland long, i take?

I understand the social and political dynamics of the city and region.




i think it depends. there was black bloc action in oakland after oscar grant was murdered, but that didn't keep other people from being similarly pissed off. either way i think a little bit of rage is better than a small rally at pioneer square that nobody pays attention to.

The facts surrounding the situation make the difference. Oscar Grant was shot in the back while handcuffed. The two victims in portland were distressed and acting agressive.




actually, i think riots and insurrections are one of the few things the underclasses can fall back on to check the power of the police. they're going to be more hesitant about pulling the trigger if they know the community is going to burn and they're the ones who will have to deal with it. this will apply pressure from below as well as above- city hall isn't going to want to deal with that shit either.

I don't doubt that violence is some times neccessary. It would be more worthwhile for the militant individuals to spend their time getting the community involved in other ways FIRST- Otherwise it just alienates everyone.




actually, those two examples suggest exactly the opposite. the police are killers whatever the situation.

How would a community defense force deal with it?

How should the police have dealt with it differently?

How accountable are our police forces?

Solutions are what we need.

[synthesis]

I expect critical thought on theory and practice regardless of which hipster town is under the microscope.

Hey, fuck you too. Maybe that's been your experience, but that says more about you than it does about Portland.

[bcbm]

how was the demo yesterday? i heard there were a few arrests and some cops attacked people. what went down?


I understand the social and political dynamics of the city and region.

and you expect critical thought on theory and practice?


The facts surrounding the situation make the difference. Oscar Grant was shot in the back while handcuffed. The two victims in portland were distressed and acting agressive.

so they deserve to be executed?


I don't doubt that violence is some times neccessary. It would be more worthwhile for the militant individuals to spend their time getting the community involved in other ways FIRST- Otherwise it just alienates everyone.

does it?


How would a community defense force deal with it?

not murdering people might be a good start.


How should the police have dealt with it differently?

driven their cars into the willamette.


How accountable are our police forces?

not very.


Solutions are what we need.

getting rid of the killer cops would be a start.

[Ele'ill]

how was the demo yesterday? i heard there were a few arrests and some cops attacked people. what went down?

It was the same thing that nearly always happens. The whole thing was very predictable.




and you expect critical thought on theory and practice?

Please, I've been around for a while and been to many places. The 'you're not from there you can't formualte an educated opinion crap needs to go.



so they deserve to be executed?

Executed? :lol:

Facts matter.




does it?

Yes, it does.




not murdering people might be a good start.

This doesn't answer how the situation would have been handled differently.

[Bud Struggle]

Agree or disagree--will you please treat Mari3L with some respect? What is wrong with you people to treat a Comrade so badly?

Educate and guide not ridicule and hate. Jeez!

[Ele'ill]

One of the main reasons people on here get dickish is because someone brings up a point that challenges their ideological clique comfort zone.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

What is this even supposed to be about? The OP just linked to the Portland Indymedia site. What tactics?

[Bud Struggle]

One of the main reasons people on here get dickish is because someone brings up a point that challenges their ideological clique comfort zone.

Dudette! :lol::thumbup:

[Bud Struggle]

What is this even supposed to be about? The OP just linked to the Portland Indymedia site.


And then it gets personal. And that's what sucks.

[bcbm]

It was the same thing that nearly always happens. The whole thing was very predictable.

not very surprising, i suppose.


Please, I've been around for a while and been to many places. The 'you're not from there you can't formualte an educated opinion crap needs to go.

i think you misunderstand. i'm insulting portland, not you. i think it's asking a bit much for the radicals there to engage in much critical thought or strategy.


Executed? :lol:

Facts matter.

killed, murdered, whatever you want to call it. most police shootings are not justified.


Yes, it does.

i'm not sure how true this is, especially in the communities most affected by police violence. beyond that, i think a riot every time the cops murder someone is going to discourage them.


This doesn't answer how the situation would have been handled differently.

the police are not provided with "non-lethal" weapons? i mean i know they typically save them for pregnant women (http://www.revleft.com/vb/court-seattle-police-t131945/index.html), but...


Agree or disagree--will you please treat Mari3L with some respect? What is wrong with you people to treat a Comrade so badly?

Educate and guide not ridicule and hate. Jeez!

i dunno if this was directed at me or not, but i don't think i've said anything insulting. i've no problem with mari3l.

[Bud Struggle]

i dunno if this was directed at me or not, but i don't think i've said anything insulting. i've no problem with mari3l.

No,--but she's one of you guys. No need for people around here to be nasty to her.

[Ele'ill]

What is this even supposed to be about? The OP just linked to the Portland Indymedia site. What tactics?


The first two or three postings on the portland imc site are of the BLACK BLOC RESPONSE and an entire post itinerary of the events that took place.

I thought it was pretty obvious :huh:

[Ele'ill]

not very surprising, i suppose.



i think you misunderstand. i'm insulting portland, not you. i think it's asking a bit much for the radicals there to engage in much critical thought or strategy.

Yeah I did misunderstand, sorry about that.




killed, murdered, whatever you want to call it. most police shootings are not justified.

I understand that the idea of police is a problem I understand that violent training, a lack of accountability and split second decision environments is part of the problem- I just don't see a defense force run by the community as acting any differently. I don't see the solution being erradicating the current police force and substituting it with essentially the same exact thing.




i'm not sure how true this is, especially in the communities most affected by police violence. beyond that, i think a riot every time the cops murder someone is going to discourage them.

A couple points on this issue.

This wasn't a riot. It was a feel good get together by people who don't have a very high arrestability but want to make a lot of noise. The problem is where their intentions lay. It tends to be on the side of high fiving over beers later on after the event. It tends to be about ego rather than actual organizing.

It isn't the community that was involved. It was a couple hundred (if even that many) people that wanted to see their tax dollars being used on riot gear up close and personally.

There have been a lot of fatal shootings by police. There have been A LOT recently. There have been a lot of actions afterwards but none that really amount to anything- If every community followed the Greek model afterwards we might see some upheaval. I'm not so sure about change but there would be upheaval.




the police are not provided with "non-lethal" weapons? i mean i know they typically save them for pregnant women (http://www.revleft.com/vb/court-seattle-police-t131945/index.html), but...

Their non-lethal weapons often don't work. They're trained to use their real weapon when they're threatened. What's probably going on here is less of a 'the police are bad' and more of 'the police need to be allowed to voice their opposition to their training and systems which they are internally held accountable." They can lose their life as a cop for not killing someone. A lot of cops don't want to be on the riot line. It makes them feel extremely uncomfortable. Lack of training or experience with confrontational situations can leave many patrol officers scared for their lives in situations that you and I may be able to operate smoothly in.

People are not born cops they're broken into one.

The entire community needs to have input and police need to be allowed a more flexible ideological stance when serving.


i dunno if this was directed at me or not, but i don't think i've said anything insulting. i've no problem with mari3l.

I misunderstood part of what you said originally as it came across as being rude or whatever. I understand what you meant now :)

[Ele'ill]

Would anybody in the Portland area that is a member of this forum who is NOT currently involved in this situation like to get involved by sitting down together and discussing it? In a group? Is this already going on?

[bcbm]

oh you kids (http://www.kgw.com/news/Police-union-HQ-hit-by-vandals-89558862.html)

also relevant (http://www.anarchistnews.org/?q=node/10962)

[black magick hustla]

all the cops should become the finest fruits of the trees and the lamposts of the world

[Ele'ill]

all the cops should become the finest fruits of the trees and the lamposts of the world

You don't think it's possible to have a much more stable defense force/police force?

[black magick hustla]

i dont know/care about institutions today. let them be torched down now and then we'll figure out what to do next

[Ele'ill]

i dont know/care about institutions today. let them be torched down now and then we'll figure out what to do next

That sounds extremely reckless.

[Bud Struggle]

i dont know/care about institutions today. let them be torched down now and then we'll figure out what to do next

That's how millions are starved or are butchered or are enslaved. You guys need to listen to your technocrat brothers. They propose to test out various systems of economy and governance and see what works best in the small scale and then they it for the masses.

What works best is what is put into practice. Now THAT is Communism with a future.

Read these guys they make sense.

http://en.technocracynet.eu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=174&Itemid=167

[black magick hustla]

That sounds extremely reckless.

not as reckless as a cops shooting children, world wars, mass starvation


That's how millions are starved or are butchered or are enslaved. You guys need to listen to your technocrat brothers. They propose to test out various systems of economy and governance and see what works best in the small scale and then they it for the masses.

nah

[Ele'ill]

not as reckless as a cops shooting children, world wars, mass starvation

We're talking about police specifically. We can talk about other things in another thread- or later on in this one if you wish.

Taking away a deterent to open violence and deciding on what to replace it with 'later' doesn't make any sense as it would allow however many months or years of instability and undoubtedly violent reign by whoever until a 'system that might work' gets into place. I would rather have a cop kill a child once a week than to have hundreds of people dying a week for a month.

A cop killing an innocent is no different than having no cops and having 'innocents killing innocents'.

[Bud Struggle]

nah

And that's why there's no Revolution.

[black magick hustla]

We're talking about police specifically. We can talk about other things in another thread- or later on in this one if you wish.

Taking away a deterent to open violence and deciding on what to replace it with 'later' doesn't make any sense as it would allow however many months or years of instability and undoubtedly violent reign by whoever until a 'system that might work' gets into place. I would rather have a cop kill a child once a week than to have hundreds of people dying a week for a month.
i think you exaggerate the pro qualities of the police. tons of people live in shitholes riddled with organized crime. cops generally end up protecting the property of the rich.

my point is that i have no reform suggestions. the police cannot be reformed in the context of this society. i was being tongue in cheek when i suggested to burn everything but my point is that real change will only happen where there is a sort of mass consciousness and people are willing to do something about it

[Ele'ill]

i think you exaggerate the pro qualities of the police. tons of people live in shitholes riddled with organized crime. cops generally end up protecting the property of the rich.

my point is that i have no reform suggestions. the police cannot be reformed in the context of this society. i was being tongue in cheek when i suggested to burn everything but my point is that real change will only happen where there is a sort of mass consciousness and people are willing to do something about it

In regards to the pro qualities of the police- what would a community defense force look like? How would it be different?

I think any system that involves the community can be reformed. A defense force would be a 'reform' of what the police forces were. It would be beneficial to identify the areas that need work NOW rather than later.

[black magick hustla]

I think any system that involves the community can be reformed. A defense force would be a 'reform' of what the police forces were. It would be beneficial to identify the areas that need work NOW rather than later.

I think this is the difference between a communist and some variety of social democracy. I think some communist positions are not necessarily immediate. I have no problem with that.

[bcbm]

I understand that the idea of police is a problem I understand that violent training, a lack of accountability and split second decision environments is part of the problem- I just don't see a defense force run by the community as acting any differently. I don't see the solution being erradicating the current police force and substituting it with essentially the same exact thing.


well you're the one who brought it up, not me. i don't think a "community defense force" could exist in a manner different from the police in a capitalist context, which is precisely why we need to destroy capitalism. even if something like that could be created, i don't think the police would take kindly to it and anyone involved would probably end up like the black panthers- dead or in jail. the police enjoy their monopoly on violence.


This wasn't a riot. It was a feel good get together by people who don't have a very high arrestability but want to make a lot of noise. The problem is where their intentions lay. It tends to be on the side of high fiving over beers later on after the event. It tends to be about ego rather than actual organizing.

i think most portland radicals are full of shit, but i'll give them the benefit of the doubt in assuming they are actually pissed about the police murdering people and not just looking for some bro points, unless you can offer some pretty good evidence otherwise?


It isn't the community that was involved. It was a couple hundred (if even that many) people that wanted to see their tax dollars being used on riot gear up close and personally.

the people who rioted were not from the community?


Their non-lethal weapons often don't work. They're trained to use their real weapon when they're threatened. What's probably going on here is less of a 'the police are bad' and more of 'the police need to be allowed to voice their opposition to their training and systems which they are internally held accountable."

yeah, the poor police. it must be their training. this is why they close ranks and support each other, get a free vacation and almost never get fired after they murder people. this is why we see long histories of violence from the same pigs, year after year, and nothing happens.


A lot of cops don't want to be on the riot line. It makes them feel extremely uncomfortable.

they should. but in my experience they don't feel so much "uncomfortable" as "looking to shoot people with their toys and beat them up."

[Ele'ill]

i think most portland radicals are full of shit, but i'll give them the benefit of the doubt in assuming they are actually pissed about the police murdering people and not just looking for some bro points, unless you can offer some pretty good evidence otherwise?

As of right now- only first hand experience.

Similarly- I can find photos and videos of pittsburgh g20 celebrations going on as comrades were still being beaten and arrested in the street.




the people who rioted were not from the community?

They were radicals of the community. They were 'the usual suspects'. It doesn't help movement when the same people act over and over without using tactics that involve outreach and growth.




yeah, the poor police. it must be their training. this is why they close ranks and support each other, get a free vacation and almost never get fired after they murder people. this is why we see long histories of violence from the same pigs, year after year, and nothing happens.

Welcome to state indoctrination process. It's no different than military brainwashing. Commuity input is needed in the force that governs them- no doubt- but the violence that would take place from getting rid of the police would be far greater than the number of police killings we currently see.




they should. but in my experience they don't feel so much "uncomfortable" as "looking to shoot people with their toys and beat them up."

They're either uncomfortable or rejecting that emotion for what they've been trained to believe is the 'greater good' thus their eager to hurt attitude is actually them being ucofortable and falling back on one of the only emotions their world as a cop allows them to feel while on duty.

[#FF0000]

Welcome to state indoctrination process. It's no different than military brainwashing. Commuity input is needed in the force that governs them- no doubt- but the violence that would take place from getting rid of the police would be far greater than the number of police killings we currently see.


Yeah but I don't think that's relevant because no one here is saying we ought to just get rid of the police, then do nothing else and call it a job well done.

[Ele'ill]

Yeah but I don't think that's relevant because no one here is saying we ought to just get rid of the police, then do nothing else and call it a job well done.

There generally is- and certainly has been in this thread- a lack of conversation regarding a replacement for the police by those proposing the eradication of the police force.

As a member of the community I want there to be plans in place to either reform the current police force or have another something ready to go. I don't trust the American activist community enough to think that they will be able to work things out in a short period of time before all hell breaks loose and the situation becomes more difficult to remedy.

[bcbm]

As of right now- only first hand experience.

Similarly- I can find photos and videos of pittsburgh g20 celebrations going on as comrades were still being beaten and arrested in the street.

perhaps those "celebrating" had already accomplished the goals they had set for themselves during the g20 and thus didn't feel a need to be out getting beaten and risking arrest? i've gone to week long summit events and planned to be out every day and ending up spending every day after the first just "celebrating" (i wouldn't call it that) with friends, because being out in the streets can be a traumatic and disturbing experience, especially if people close to you have been nailed. sometimes it makes more sense to recover than be a martyr.


They were radicals of the community. They were 'the usual suspects'. It doesn't help movement when the same people act over and over without using tactics that involve outreach and growth.

that's just it though- this is the first time the radicals have acted on an incident of police brutality. and i think their actions are a form of outreach- nothing else would be keeping the story and the topic of police brutality in the public eye if the radicals weren't out fucking shit up. and, anyway, some of the report backs suggest further organizing, etc is happening, so let's not be too quick to dismiss.


Welcome to state indoctrination process. It's no different than military brainwashing. Commuity input is needed in the force that governs them- no doubt- but the violence that would take place from getting rid of the police would be far greater than the number of police killings we currently see.

what do you mean "the violence they would take place from getting rid of the police?"


They're either uncomfortable or rejecting that emotion for what they've been trained to believe is the 'greater good' thus their eager to hurt attitude is actually them being ucofortable and falling back on one of the only emotions their world as a cop allows them to feel while on duty.

i'm going to take my and people i know's personal experiences with the police over your psychoanalysis of what they're "really" feeling.


There generally is- and certainly has been in this thread- a lack of conversation regarding a replacement for the police by those proposing the eradication of the police force.

As a member of the community I want there to be plans in place to either reform the current police force or have another something ready to go. I don't trust the American activist community enough to think that they will be able to work things out in a short period of time before all hell breaks loose and the situation becomes more difficult to remedy.

any solution to the problem of the police has to be a community solution and, realistically, cannot happen under capitalism or if it did would simply be necessary reforms to further the police's role as a tool of social control. we should work to limit their power and control their abuses, but what is necessary is to remove their masters from power and thus remove the police as well.

[Ele'ill]

perhaps those "celebrating" had already accomplished the goals they had set for themselves during the g20 and thus didn't feel a need to be out getting beaten and risking arrest? i've gone to week long summit events and planned to be out every day and ending up spending every day after the first just "celebrating" (i wouldn't call it that) with friends, because being out in the streets can be a traumatic and disturbing experience, especially if people close to you have been nailed. sometimes it makes more sense to recover than be a martyr.

Solidarity matters. I don't think that accomplishing a goal, one single goal which- for the record- was their own- justifies getting drunk and celebrating. Even by the end of the event the more mature and seasoned organizers and activists were down trodden and still working hard. You can always tell who's in it for the long haul and who is there for ego.




that's just it though- this is the first time the radicals have acted on an incident of police brutality. and i think their actions are a form of outreach- nothing else would be keeping the story and the topic of police brutality in the public eye if the radicals weren't out fucking shit up. and, anyway, some of the report backs suggest further organizing, etc is happening, so let's not be too quick to dismiss.

This isn't even anywhere close to the first anti police action by radicals in that area. Their actions isolate themselves because of the violence and novels worth of ideology that the common member of a community would have to dig through to understand where they're coming from. There are more reasonable solutions and goals that are easier to attain.




what do you mean "the violence they would take place from getting rid of the police?"

If there's no police and no alternative defense force system there would be extensive violence from the most petty level to the most explosive and entrenching organized/gang/lynch mob shit.




i'm going to take my and people i know's personal experiences with the police over your psychoanalysis of what they're "really" feeling.

I can see.




any solution to the problem of the police has to be a community solution and, realistically, cannot happen under capitalism or if it did would simply be necessary reforms to further the police's role as a tool of social control.

Exactly why taking to the streets in a militant march as 'Anarchists' or any other label isolates that particular group from other concerned members of the community. The solution isn't in over turned dumpsters it's in community dialogue which there hasn't been.




we should work to limit their power and control their abuses, but what is necessary is to remove their masters from power and thus remove the police as well.

One step at a time. You're not going to accomplish all that in a day, week or year. You need a plan. You need people from every group working at it and if they disagree you need a plan to get them to understand.

Radicals are right in that they see the flaws but thus far in the United States their actions have been- for the most part- pitifully useless. I believe the reason for this is lack of outreach. It can no longer be Anarchist to Anarchist it has to be bigger than that. It has to be Anarchist to Quaker to City community organizer to environmental activist.

There is no network. autonomy does not mean isolation.

[bcbm]

Solidarity matters. I don't think that accomplishing a goal, one single goal which- for the record- was their own- justifies getting drunk and celebrating. Even by the end of the event the more mature and seasoned organizers and activists were down trodden and still working hard. You can always tell who's in it for the long haul and who is there for ego.

whatever, this is all off topic and i don't really care. i think summit hopping is a waste of time anyway.



This isn't even anywhere close to the first anti police action by radicals in that area.

when i lived there a couple of police shootings happened and, if memory serves, all that happened was a small little protest at pioneer square. the anarchists didn't do anything.


Their actions isolate themselves because of the violence and novels worth of ideology that the common member of a community would have to dig through to understand where they're coming from. There are more reasonable solutions and goals that are easier to attain.

given the long history of violence erupting (on a much larger scale) following police abuses in most of the country and the world, i don't think there is all that much to dig through. but yes, i don't think a riot can or should be the end of what happens.


If there's no police and no alternative defense force system there would be extensive violence from the most petty level to the most explosive and entrenching organized/gang/lynch mob shit.

nobody is talking about just removing the police and letting the chips fall where they may.


Exactly why taking to the streets in a militant march as 'Anarchists' or any other label isolates that particular group from other concerned members of the community. The solution isn't in over turned dumpsters it's in community dialogue which there hasn't been.

a little from column a, a little from column b


One step at a time. You're not going to accomplish all that in a day, week or year.

oh, no shit?


You need a plan. You need people from every group working at it and if they disagree you need a plan to get them to understand.

i would say a strategy.


Radicals are right in that they see the flaws but thus far in the United States their actions have been- for the most part- pitifully useless.

no argument here.


I believe the reason for this is lack of outreach. It can no longer be Anarchist to Anarchist it has to be bigger than that. It has to be Anarchist to Quaker to City community organizer to environmental activist.

There is no network. autonomy does not mean isolation.

i think there have been attempts at "outreach" for a very, very long time but they never seem to go anywhere. but i generally agree that radicals need to get out of the ghetto and negate the role of "radical" and "activist."

[Os Cangaceiros]

The primary social function of the police is the protection of private property and/or capital. That's a lot more brutally apparent in less developed nations, but it's a universal truism in capitalist society. I would think that anyone who claims to be a leftist would be on the same page in that they need to be done away with immediately.

And I suppose that I should point out that my saying that doesn't mean that I support the world turning into one giant version of Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome.

[Ele'ill]

The primary social function of the police is the protection of private property and/or capital. That's a lot more brutally apparent in less developed nations, but it's a universal truism in capitalist society. I would think that anyone who claims to be a leftist would be on the same page in that they need to be done away with immediately.

I don't think the argument is getting rid of them vs keeping them as they are. It's much more along the lines of what is going to replace it, at what stage is it going to be replaced, how is it going to be replaced should we just opt for no police or defense forces? etc..

Absolutely no questions have been answered about it in this thread or in similar threads.


And I suppose that I should point out that my saying that doesn't mean that I support the world turning into one giant version of Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome.

Then let's think of some solutions and replacement alternatives.

[bcbm]

I don't think the argument is getting rid of them vs keeping them as they are.

then why do you keep framing the question that way?


It's much more along the lines of what is going to replace it, at what stage is it going to be replaced, how is it going to be replaced should we just opt for no police or defense forces? etc..

i think the major problem in trying to answer these questions is that, as i said before, the solution has to come from the community and so its fairly asinine to try and suggest exactly how things will be and lay out a time table. as it stands we can't do anything without building enough counter-power to keep the police out of our neighborhoods. for my part, once we have that sort of power i think some sort of "defense force" would be needed, but it should be based more around community members watching each others' backs, with any formal roles being democratically selected and recallable at anytime.

until then, we can push for reform- different police training and tactics, removing killer cops (and having some justice served against them), etc- but it's still only attacking one part of the problem and not in any way threatening the police's role as defenders of the status quo.


Absolutely no questions have been answered about it in this thread or in similar threads.

there have been a number of threads that address these issues in some manner:

clicky (http://www.revleft.com/vb/police-anarchist-society-t70732/index.html), clicky (http://www.revleft.com/vb/armed-populace-organised-t101131/index.html), clicky (http://www.revleft.com/vb/police-and-courts-t88835/index.html)

[Ele'ill]

then why do you keep framing the question that way?

Because I want to know what my community will look like without police or with an alternative.




i think the major problem in trying to answer these questions is that, as i said before, the solution has to come from the community and so its fairly asinine to try and suggest exactly how things will be and lay out a time table.

We are a community here. We should be able to come up with police solutions as if we were in a real immediate community. It's no less asinine than 'the community' meeting and trying to figure out what to do.




as it stands we can't do anything without building enough counter-power to keep the police out of our neighborhoods. for my part, once we have that sort of power i think some sort of "defense force" would be needed, but it should be based more around community members watching each others' backs, with any formal roles being democratically selected and recallable at anytime.

Entirely too vague. We'll cross our fingers too. :rolleyes:


until then, we can push for reform- different police training and tactics, removing killer cops (and having some justice served against them), etc- but it's still only attacking one part of the problem and not in any way threatening the police's role as defenders of the status quo.

You may find that anti police and anti state solidarity grows enough through the push for reform that a movement is spawned to completely get rid of it.




there have been a number of threads that address these issues in some manner:

clicky (http://www.revleft.com/vb/police-anarchist-society-t70732/index.html), clicky (http://www.revleft.com/vb/armed-populace-organised-t101131/index.html), clicky (http://www.revleft.com/vb/police-and-courts-t88835/index.html)

I'll check it out. Thanks.

[bcbm]

Because I want to know what my community will look like without police or with an alternative.

well i don't think any of us here is a prophet, but there are a few ideas on the table.


We are a community here. We should be able to come up with police solutions as if we were in a real immediate community. It's no less asinine than 'the community' meeting and trying to figure out what to do. i think a community in the geographic and personal sense is better equipped to determine how they can deal with the police in an immediate context as well as figuring out how to remove them (and destroy capital) in the long term.


Entirely too vague. We'll cross our fingers too. :rolleyes:of course its vague, its a brief synopsis of what i think should happen. the details are hammered out through discussion, that's the entire point i've been trying to make.

and hey, why don't you offer some solutions? if you think we can act as a community and figure things out here, try contributing instead of rolling your eyes.


You may find that anti police and anti state solidarity grows enough through the push for reform that a movement is spawned to completely get rid of it.entirely too vague. we'll cross our fingers too. :rolleyes:

[Ele'ill]

well i don't think any of us here is a prophet, but there are a few ideas on the table.

If someone is advocating the removal of a system or organization they better have a replacement solution. You don't need to be a prophet to identify what's wrong with the current system thus what needs to change in that system or needs to replace that system. My main problem with some of the people in the radical community is that they seem to not give a shit what happens after they dismantle something.


i think a community in the geographic and personal sense is better equipped to determine how they can deal with the police in an immediate context as well as figuring out how to remove them (and destroy capital) in the long term.

I agree and disagree. I've heard patriotic soldiers say something similar which is 'if you havn't been to Iraq as a soldier then you can't have a fucking clue what needs to be done.' I think from a very basic on-the-ground level they're right. The people criticising wouldn't make good generals or maybe even soldiers but the general reason for being in Iraq (or where ever) is perhaps wrong. It also doesn't take a genius to do a little bit of research and figure out what exactly IS going on on-the-ground but it may be fuzzy at first glance.

The same is with the police forces or any local issues such as sewer, roads or the building of a new industrial park or prison. You and I know the problems that arrise in the united states with the building of these things. We know what to look for. I know that an industrial park opening in Pennsylvania will bring the same general issues as one opening in Portland Oregon. In fact they're surprisingly similar. They may affect different physical geographical areas such as watershed or lake areas but the human issue still remains the same. Industrial parks and prisons historically don't provide local jobs. The IPs change zoning from residential to industrial. They affect property values and the local environment as said with the watershed/lake etc.

We know this without having to be present. What of the police?


of course its vague, its a brief synopsis of what i think should happen. the details are hammered out through discussion, that's the entire point i've been trying to make.

The discussions are coming up with empty answers though.


and hey, why don't you offer some solutions? if you think we can act as a community and figure things out here, try contributing instead of rolling your eyes.

I would first look at the dirty radical word 'reform'. Can a different system be implemented? Will the police agencies accept it or ignore it? How much community effort will it take?

If there's 3,000 people in a town (not counting the police) and it starts with 200 anarchists and anti authoritarians marching and causing chaos. Then it's those 200 again but more relaxed or whatever marching with 400 community center participants. What if then there are 2,000 people?

The point I think i'm trying to make is that there isn't a whole lot of pressure put on the police forces from different angles. The police may be there to use their 'new toys' and beat people and reckless demonstration gives them the chance to cut us down early.

I think we need new tactics for a while because the 'ransack the police HQ' bullshit has gotten us no where. Perhaps it stems from the fact that police murdering people is not a very frequent occurance. It is an attrocity when it happens but it isn't happening enough for the non-actives in the community to move in and become engaged. Perhaps push that envelope.

Maybe we need more complex demonstrations with larger numbers of people.

Go door to door.
Organize community center meetings on issues.
Start county or township coalitions.
Write to the chief of police (I know haha what bullshit that is but even more so is the fact that nobody has fucking done it yet)
Host block parties with the theme of discussing social issues that affect your neighborhoods.

Right now the left is like a snap shot of a bomb explosion but we're at the closing in portion of the explosion where all the dust is sort of rushing inward or maybe we're even the aftermath of the event but we can't use that luxury of staging such appearances. We need to be at the initial violent movement outward with the trails of shrapnel and all that good stuff. Branch out requires energy and a lot of work. I don't think staging a final scenes of the revolution act at every demonstration is worth a flying fuck.




You know, I'd like to add something here at the end that I think is a fairly decent observation.

It isn't entirely the idea of dismantling the police or state or whatever that makes me uneasy upfront but the fact that there isn't a clear lay out of how to do that. I don't know if there has been any recent discussion on how to do it and I'm not really all that interested in texts about it from 100 some years ago.

[bcbm]

It isn't entirely the idea of dismantling the police or state or whatever that makes me uneasy upfront but the fact that there isn't a clear lay out of how to do that.

you think the knowledge needed to dismantle some of the most powerful institutions on the planet is laying around somewhere and pro-revolutionaries just haven't bothered to try it yet? come on. there is no 12 step program here, we're figuring it out as we go.

[Ele'ill]

you think the knowledge needed to dismantle some of the most powerful institutions on the planet is laying around somewhere and pro-revolutionaries just haven't bothered to try it yet? come on. there is no 12 step program here, we're figuring it out as we go.

There's a difference between trying new tactics until you get it right and not having much of a plan that's worth a fuck and then using it over and over again because it makes you look cool. Sure, black and masks looks great on the evening news but that isn't positive movement for the movement.

Right now in the United States, 99% of the anarchist movement is 100% ego, 0% legitimate sacrifice and they don't have a clue how to organize and plan out what they want to accomplish and how they're going to get there.

How's that for critical? Maybe a bit over critical but I'm going to let it stand at that.

[bcbm]

you didn't say anything i disagree with in those three paragraphs. i mean, i don't really give a shit if people want to do black blocs and i think there is a time and a place for those tactics (which is rarely the time and place they're used), but then again i also don't have much faith in pro-revolutionaries to reflect and evaluate their shit strategically.

what do you mean by "legitimate sacrifice?"

[Ele'ill]

what do you mean by "legitimate sacrifice?"

I guess I was refering to what I brought up earlier in this thread in regards to 'announcing a militant demonstration' being the new cool thing to do.

From a purely strategic viewpoint if your goal is to fuck up as much shit as you possibly can you don't fucking announce it on websites, tweets and blogs. Period. If you truely want autonomy and affinity actions let them be autonomous and let them be affinity groups.

No more of this 'MARCH 30TH IS A MILITANT DAY OF ACTION IN DOWN TOWN WHEREEVER'


It's passive aggressive bullshit. It's extremely obvious to me, at least, that they want to be stopped so they don't go to jail.

It's all irrelevant as far as I'm concerned because even the truely militant actions that take place unscheduled in the black of night are fucking useless for the most part here in the united states. There's no movement behind them. They're fringe and they represent a small part of the radical community.

I know a lot of radicals that drive cars and I'm ok with that. What I am not ok with are the radials riding tall bikes and dressing like elves (i'm not eluding to anything here) that spit or throw shit at cars.

There is no solidarity in isolation. If you want to go sit in a corner that you find comfy fine but do it with your fucking mouth closed and your god damned hands to yourself.

I know many anarchists that would love to march in the street, some masked others not, but they won't because they don't want to take that chance of getting a fairly long jail sentence because someone next to them decided that turning over a newspaper stand would affectively 'fight capitalism' or on a smaller scale 'block traffic' for more than eleven seconds until a by stander drags the 30lb object back to its spot on the sidewalk.