The "Conspiracy theory" mentality.

[Palingenisis]

Im always shocked to find people who at first sight seem progressive get hung up on the activities and "conspiracies" of Bliderbergers, the Illumanti, etc. Originally the idealogical under-pinnings of the "Conspiracy theory" world view were the remanents of the fuedal order which saw the emergence of captialism and its power structures as the product of some diabolic plot. Now it seems to be so-called "libertarianism". What I find most reactionary in it is that sees the functioning or malfunctioning of societies not as the necessary outcome of certain structures but as the scheming of wicked individuals who if only they were exposed everything would be A-Okay. It focuses on the accidents and as opposed to the essence of the situation in which we find ourselves. Also to be considered is whether it is a product of the "macheviellianism" of the bourgiouse compared to both the old aristocracies and the proletariat.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this subject?

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think conspiracies are attractive to people - particularly in the US - who feel alienated from capitalist democracy, maybe recognize that popular will is not reflected in governing and, but have no understanding as to why or how to change it.

When people don't understand things, they tend to fill in the gaps and I think a lot of conspiracy theory thinking goes like... "well we have capitalism and democracy and these are supposed to be great and the best of all possible systems... but still there are all these social problems, I don't feel like I have any control or influence in society and the needs of others seem to get no attention... so there must be some corrupting element that is preventing the US from living up to its potential".

The second reason why conspiracies are popular with some people is that is sort of absolves the believer from having to actually do anything other than spread the conspiracy (the "truth"): if all world events and popular opinions are due to the machinations of some super-powerful sect, then even if you could try to change this, they would concoct some evidence to discredit the truth.

I think conspiracies are popular among libertarians because first of all they have no idea how to organize collectively, but secondly, since they bought into a myth that is currently crumbling all around them. Similarly, many hippies got into conspiracies when the counter-culture and new left groups began to decline... with no political understanding of why this happened: well, it must be the Illuminati and the Bohemian Club.

[Prairie Fire]

American Party of Labour article on the subject, which pretty much covers everything:
http://theredphoenix.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/who-shot-jfk-who-cares/

[RadioRaheem84]

It's because people feel disconnected to the political process and think that there is nothing inherently wrong with the system, so it's always outside forces bringing it down.

It's just an extension of bourgeoisie thinking; that the system is flawless and therefore external forces are the cause of problems, not internal forces.

Shady bankers, the Federal Reserve, cults, commies, etc. are all at fault for the nation's woes, not the system.

[GPDP]

It's because people feel disconnected to the political process and think that there is nothing inherently wrong with the system, so it's always outside forces bringing it down.

It's just an extension of bourgeoisie thinking; that the system is flawless and therefore external forces are the cause of problems, not internal forces.

Shady bankers, the Federal Reserve, cults, commies, etc. are all at fault for the nation's woes, not the system.

I think it's possible to stretch this analysis a bit, and say even conventional bourgeois politics tend to have a conspiratorial twist to them, just without the secret cabal. Just listen to Democrats or Republicans whenever the opposing party is in power. Health care reform didn't go your way? If you're a Democrat, it's the fault of the Republicans being the "party of no," as well as the Tea Baggers. If you're a (non-wingnut) Republican, it's because the Democrats are trying to subvert the Constitution.

In both cases, they don't question the system, but instead blame an opposing group of interests for mucking things up.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Conspiracy theories help the ruling class, they act as a deterrent against the reality of Capitalism, where capital is held by the ruling minority and where the majority are wage slaves. Conspiracy theories work as an intoxicant like all forms of social control. They are based in mysticism and the unexplained like pseudo-science and religion. Conspiracy theories work by offering grand answers to people problems. They offer no real answers yet leave things unexplained and intangible. As a result people are protected against the material and tangible truth to Capitalist society.

[bricolage]

At the same time though lots of people would say anti-capitalism is a conspiracy theory...

[zimmerwald1915]

At the same time though lots of people would say anti-capitalism is a conspiracy theory...
And they would be wrong :thumbup1:

[bricolage]

And they would be wrong :thumbup1:

Yes, but on those grounds I'm still wary of just dismissing 'conspiracy theories', everything is a conspiracy theory for a while and if people are questioning the social order, even if it might be for slightly deluded reasons, at least they are questioning it and that is something to build on.

[RadioRaheem84]

Yeah the concept that we're being exploited at work and this has never been brought up seems like a conspiracy to most people.

[bricolage]

Yeah the concept that we're being exploited at work and this has never been brought up seems like a conspiracy to most people.

I think to a lot of people the idea that you are being exploited at the workplace might well be seen a onspiracy, it is often just dismissed as leftist ramblings and instead how things are are just construed as the natural order.

You try telling everyone that invading Iraq was an imperialist adventure and bare will just call you a nut.

[Jimmie Higgins]

American Party of Labour article on the subject, which pretty much covers everything:
http://theredphoenix.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/who-shot-jfk-who-cares/

Just to highlight some of the best points from this article:


The true impulses that give birth to the rise and popular proliferation of the conspiracy theories in the United States are generally related to:
A) The political disenfranchisement of the people, and their inability to control their own circumstances or chart their own future. This leads to a general desire to seek awareness and to know what is going on, since people feel exasperated and helpless to change it.
B) The desire of the people, rooted in their own direct experiences, to know whether or not the state that governs over them is anti-democratic, and to what lengths are they willing to go to maintain their political domination.

...

This is a classical textbook example of how far removed from actual struggle and strife the advocates of conspiracy generally are. Because the advocates of conspiracy politics have rarely experienced overt, naked repression, they think that their tactics, which rely primarily around “spreading the word” would be sufficient to get people into the streets to change their circumstances. This is a comically naïve point of view which overlooks the experience of every single country that has ever had the pleasure of living under a military junta, or experienced a coup, or experienced other open repression.

...

The tactics of conspiracy politicians are generally non-committal, individualistic and all of their attempts to wake the people up are entirely a matter of individual initiative. The individual has to take the initiative to go on “infowars” and inform themselves after seeing a website URL. The individual has to take the initiative to watch films like “Loose Change” and “Zeitgeist.” The individual has to take the initiative to do whatever they see fit to hamper the forces at the root of perpetrating the conspiracy, without anything resembling collective or coordinated and organized actions towards definite goals.

[ElJefe326]

Just to highlight some of the best points from this article:

I apologize if I respond like a newbie, this is my first post on RevLeft but I have to agree with this:

"The tactics of conspiracy politicians are generally non-committal, individualistic and all of their attempts to wake the people up are entirely a matter of individual initiative. The individual has to take the initiative to go on “infowars” and inform themselves after seeing a website URL. The individual has to take the initiative to watch films like “Loose Change” and “Zeitgeist.” "

I think people such as Alex Jones, Mark Dice, David Icke, etc. can be somewhat to blame here. Whether they know it or not, they have a great amount of influence when it comes to conspiratorial ideas (especially Jones and Icke). But if you look at Jones' website, half of it consists of advertisements for gold investments or questionable "survival food". Once someone like Alex Jones or David Icke realize that they've found their audience, they immediately proceed to sell out which is the "American way" these days (Icke following suite because the American way has became the UK way).

So those who support Jones, Dice, or Icke frequent their websites and respond accordingly in the same manner as Jones, Dice, Icke....talking about the "American sheeple", Faux News, etc. the terms that were trendy during the Bush administration but have just become laughable for the past year or so.

It would be great for these folks to tell their listeners "hey keep listening, but participate in this rally, or support this anti-war protest". I suppose freeze-dried "survival rations", dvds, and "End the Fed" t-shirts are more profitable than advertising rallies and protests that may actually change the western world.

"The individual has to take the initiative to do whatever they see fit to hamper the forces at the root of perpetrating the conspiracy, without anything resembling collective or coordinated and organized actions towards definite goals."

Truth, I think many of these individuals see that the correct way to go about increasing the awareness is posting links to "infowars" or "the Obama Deception" to every website they visit. I guess my question is, how can we advocate or coordinate collective action without conjuring up the so-called "nutjobs" who advocate the "paleo-conservative" or libertarian ideals that only worked during the 18th and 19th centuries without advocating true progressive ideals the U.S. needs to move forward in these times??

[mikelepore]

Many conspiracies are real, because the word only means two or more people having a discussion to prepare to accomplish something sneaky. Does anyone think that we live in a world where people's behavior is never sneaky? The problem is, the mass media cover the stupid theories. The media will give considerable coverage to the suggestion of satanic symbolism in things, and then not cover the corporate executives plotting to defeat labor unions and fix prices.

[ChrisK]

I see people who believe in conspiracies as usually being more conscious of class exploitation, but without any solid analysis to point them in the right direction. They usually grew up with communist and socialist meaning dictatorship, and thus don't see that as a place to get analysis. So they turn to the only other group who strongly critique the government and corporations; Alex Jones and co.

As a result of this, they get sucked into this mentality that a small secretive group within the government creates the problems in capitalism and that if they could slice away that portion, then things will get all better. They need to be exposed to a socialist critique of capitalism so that they can see that it isn't just individuals who own powerful corporations and powerful government officals, but rather the system itself that is the problem.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Many conspiracies are real, because the word only means two or more people having a discussion to prepare to accomplish something sneaky. Does anyone think that we live in a world where people's behavior is never sneaky? The problem is, the mass media cover the stupid theories. The media will give considerable coverage to the suggestion of satanic symbolism in things, and then not cover the corporate executives plotting to defeat labor unions and fix prices.



Thank you for your response. I think most of the people on this thread that criticise these facts are afraid to admit publically that they are not figments of their immagination. afraid of being discredited and called a conspiracy nut and not being taken seriously. so by not talking about these secret groups, and not showing how deeply corupt and ruthless these system is, you are doing a disservice to the people by not exposing this system for what it is and what it is capable of.and as a matter of fact, the people on this board that mocked "conspiracies" which are not theories but proven facts, gave the same response that the right wing gives when people talk about these covert activities. sad how peole voice the same opinions of the very class they are trying to expose.

[RadioRaheem84]

I don't think anyone in here discredits the idea that businessmen do meet in closed doors to discuss their interests and how to go about concentrating power. If they didn't do that then we would be gaining in our class struggle. Of course they meet in rooms in the Tri-Lateral Commission and the IMF board rooms to discuss economic policy with other establishment people.

The point is that most conspiracy nuts, right wingers, believe that it has nothing to do with capitalism. That this is something outside of the system and causing external damage to their perfect model of free enterprise. They don't see this as a result of free enterprise.

In the end there is a conspiracy of sorts but it's more class warfare than anything else. The only thing that the bourgeoisie have successfully done in convince the lower classes that they do not consciously pursue their own interests.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

I don't think anyone in here discredits the idea that businessmen do meet in closed doors to discuss their interests and how to go about concentrating power. If they didn't do that then we would be gaining in our class struggle. Of course they meet in rooms in the Tri-Lateral Commission and the IMF board rooms to discuss economic policy with other establishment people.

The point is that most conspiracy nuts, right wingers, believe that it has nothing to do with capitalism. That this is something outside of the system and causing external damage to their perfect model of free enterprise. They don't see this as a result of free enterprise.

In the end there is a conspiracy of sorts but it's more class warfare than anything else. The only thing that the bourgeoisie have successfully done in convince the lower classes that they do not consciously pursue their own interests.


then I was wrong, there is a difference between the two. ie the right says that Obama is a socialist and a fascist. so there is a difference between the covert organizations on the right that the left talks about, and the world of oz that the right wing media talks about.

[mosfeld]

I remember being in a psychology class at school. After being kicked out of some group project for almost never showing up to class, I told the lady who kicked me out of the group to fuck off and sat next to some guy who claimed to be a marxist.

I remember talking to him a month earlier. I spotted him in a green commie jacket full of soviet patches. I walked to him and asked "you a commie?" and he replied positively. I asked him if he was a Marxist-Leninist and he was like "no man, only marx. lenin derailed the revolution and only thought about himself. I believe in communism like Marx envisioned it" I basically just nodded, dismissed him as a left communist (I was completely wrong, read on), told him to fuck off and read some history and walked away.

So anyways, when I sat next to him in psychology class, I thought I'd have a proper conversation with him about marxism. I explained historical materialism to him and why going "straight to communism" as he wished was impossible. We had discussions about Afghanistan amongst other thing. Then out of nowhere he said the most surprising thing;

"You realize that the world is ruled by the Illuminati World Order though, right?"

Honestly within the blink of an eye I had lost every small ounce of respect I had for him. I don't really remember that much of the conversation, but it was full of chauvinism and primitivism. "Thinking about the middle east gives me a headache. I just look at all of them as terrorists." I denounced him as a racist and said the only terrorists in the middle east are Israel and basically shat over him and he was like "uhgh...".

He claimed that a bourgeois reformist "green-left" politican here in Iceland was fighting for communism and deserved our full support and also claimed that a reformist road to communism was possible.

The convo somehow got derailed..

"I believe in an agricultural society. I basically want everyone to go back to the countryside. You could say I was born in the wrong time, I just really wish everything was like back in 1971." Basically the conversation had turned into a joke and I was just slurring some random shit at him like "yo thug life bro" at his dismissal.

"I just really want communism like Marx wanted it. I want the government to own everything and everyone should be equal." Basically, he didn't know shit about marxism. This guy was nuts. "Socialism never really works in big countries like Russia, which is why it was defeated in 1991. I think socialism would only work in small countries like Iceland" .. "Like Grenada?" I said and he had no idea what country that was.

I said he should stop believing this conspiracy theory shit and he was like "Oh no man, I've been reading about this shit for years and I'll never stop believing this. This is the truth."

Basically after this convo he's been a smug piece of shit and refuses to talk to me. But, yeah, I went a bit off-topic, but basically what Im saying is that conspiracy nuts can eat shit, fuck off and die. haha.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

I remember being in a psychology class at school. After being kicked out of some group project for almost never showing up to class, I told the lady who kicked me out of the group to fuck off and sat next to some guy who claimed to be a marxist.

I remember talking to him a month earlier. I spotted him in a green commie jacket full of soviet patches. I walked to him and asked "you a commie?" and he replied positively. I asked him if he was a Marxist-Leninist and he was like "no man, only marx. lenin derailed the revolution and only thought about himself. I believe in communism like Marx envisioned it" I basically just nodded, dismissed him as a left communist (I was completely wrong, read on), told him to fuck off and read some history and walked away.

So anyways, when I sat next to him in psychology class, I thought I'd have a proper conversation with him about marxism. I explained historical materialism to him and why going "straight to communism" as he wished was impossible. We had discussions about Afghanistan amongst other thing. Then out of nowhere he said the most surprising thing;

"You realize that the world is ruled by the Illuminati World Order though, right?"

Honestly within the blink of an eye I had lost every small ounce of respect I had for him. I don't really remember that much of the conversation, but it was full of chauvinism and primitivism. "Thinking about the middle east gives me a headache. I just look at all of them as terrorists." I denounced him as a racist and said the only terrorists in the middle east are Israel and basically shat over him and he was like "uhgh...".

He claimed that a bourgeois reformist "green-left" politican here in Iceland was fighting for communism and deserved our full support and also claimed that a reformist road to communism was possible.

The convo somehow got derailed..

"I believe in an agricultural society. I basically want everyone to go back to the countryside. You could say I was born in the wrong time, I just really wish everything was like back in 1971." Basically the conversation had turned into a joke and I was just slurring some random shit at him like "yo thug life bro" at his dismissal.

"I just really want communism like Marx wanted it. I want the government to own everything and everyone should be equal." Basically, he didn't know shit about marxism. This guy was nuts. "Socialism never really works in big countries like Russia, which is why it was defeated in 1991. I think socialism would only work in small countries like Iceland" .. "Like Grenada?" I said and he had no idea what country that was.

I said he should stop believing this conspiracy theory shit and he was like "Oh no man, I've been reading about this shit for years and I'll never stop believing this. This is the truth."

Basically after this convo he's been a smug piece of shit and refuses to talk to me. But, yeah, I went a bit off-topic, but basically what Im saying is that conspiracy nuts can eat shit, fuck off and die. haha.


man o' man has this thread began to degenerate.

[mosfeld]

Did you read the entire post? It was semi-off topic, I admit, but it isn't degeneration material or not viable for this thread.

[Dimentio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYE5hcS_x5M&feature=player_embedded

One cannot deny that Alex Jones is a skilled demagogue.

[trying2]

conspiracy theories are very entertaining to me and many others. Nothing can make me do more personal research than an alleged conspiracy. It is my own human nature to find the evil within the hearts of men. But the simple fact is that there were many conspiracies throughout history that have happened or been proven true. Julius Caesar was killed by senators. Roberto Calvi's suicide was eventually found to be a murder. There is a good number of real events in which people behind closed doors conspired to do harm against others. The only reason I believe that conspiracies are popular in any culture is that they appeal to people. It is mystery. Who doesn't love a good mystery story? Conspiracies get people to think outside of the box. Some peoples minds are so 1D that just the thought of any kind of conspiracy will make them plug their ears. It's not right wingers. It's not leftist loons. It's humans who are interested in asking why... why did this event happen ?? who did it? why did they do it?? are they lying?.. it's human nature.. IMO :)

[The Vegan Marxist]

nYE5hcS_x5M

One cannot deny that Alex Jones is a skilled demagogue.

I used to be a conspiracy theorist when I first got into politics. I was a pro-capitalist at the time who believed that we were being run by a Satanic New World Order called the Illuminati. I even got so big into the lifestyle that I started participating in the "Illuminatus Symbology" to try & find out what all was being run by the Illuminati through symbology. Alex Jones was practically a hero of mine at one point, because he seemed to be the only one asking the real questions. I can look back at it now & realize how much shit he distorted or took way out of context, but I participated in that lifestyle for over 6 years, so it was hard to get out of. Though, eventually I started befriending with satanists, started learning about the truth of how they operate, & so I started questioning the Satanic claim on the New World Order. From there I started questioning a lot of things. But it took a long time 'til I started questioning things like "9/11 Truth", the "global warming hoax", & "obama's fake birth certificate". Though, that's around the time when I started questioning Capitalism & emerging myself into the ideals of Socialism. I'm not exactly proud that I was a major conspiracy theorist & actually talked to Alex Jones & his crew quite a good number of times, but at least I know I learned something from them - to question all that I was told.

Conspiracy theories are for two types of people: newbie activists who are now starting to learn about corruption in government, & very well minded activists who became far too paranoid within their own political lifestyle.