How do Europeans and Canadians view the States? [Archive]

RadioRaheem84

25th March 2010, 16:25

I also want Aussies and New Zealand opinions. Considering that we lack universal health care, free higher education, a huge gap between rich and poor, ultra violence in our urban streets, gang warfare, overcrowded prisons, horrible public education system, massive consumer debt, massive student loan debt, an overworked population, etc.

Do we even mirror the other first world nations? I see our country as a sort of China or Russia before I view it as being akin to France, Canada, and Sweden.

Not to say that European countries are perfect. I know that globalization has turned many nations into mini-United States, but how do you view our country considering we lack all of the benefits your average citizen gets.
At the bottom level, my country is almost third world like. We have nice suburbs and rich areas but at the bottom level in some cities it looks like a Brazilian slum. What gives? Why are we still called first world?

Dimentio

25th March 2010, 16:40

Swedes in general have a very positive view on New York, Hollywood, and American popular culture. Swedish Television is sometimes like a social democratic version of Fox News and most Swedes are left-leaning (if we are using American terminology, even the leaders of the Swedish conservative party would be considered to the left of Obama) so the things that are disliked in Sweden are the right-wing economic policies and the christian fundamentalism (especially that, since 70% of the Swedes are either agnostics or atheists).

George W Bush was very disliked in Sweden already from the beginning. I remember that most of the teachers at my local school were very pro-Gore and anti-Bush. There is a small fringe minority in Sweden, mostly consisting of neo-conservatives and neoliberals who almost worship the United States, with the same fervour that the APL for example is upholding Albania. They are so passionate about their devotion exactly because the USA is so different from Sweden.

In summarum, most Swedes like Americans and the United States quite much, mostly because Sweden and the Swedes always have been admiring the dominant power of the western world, no matter if it was France, Britain or Germany. Most Swedes dislike American politics and have a very vague idea of what it is, and some people even think that for example abortions are banned in America or that America is a theocracy (it is bad, but it isn't that bad).

There is probably only one country which Swedes in general really are disliking today, and I would say that is Russia. Both Russia and the Russian people are disliked, mostly because of the proximity and the fact that Russia when it is strong is threatening from a military perspective, and when it is weak it is threatening from the viewpoint that if it collapses it could end in anarchy. Russia is also quite despised because of the widespread corruption, prostitution, alcoholism and social problems there. Russia is also viewed as somewhat silly. The aversion is part political, part social and part - I would say - instinctual, given the fact that Russia ate like 50% of what was then Sweden during the 18th and 19th centuries.

Sweden have general quite tight laws against racism and chauvinism, but it is "ok" to support prejudices against Russia and Russians, even from the point of view of the establishment. This number was organised before the Swedish national eurovision finale in 2009, when Moscow was arranging the ESC. It caused somewhat of a small diplomatic blunder with Russia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWo6Dbwq4Ms

Many Swedes are also racist against different muslim groups, and there are signs that the authorities are beginning to politicising on that, because of the fear that the xenophobic right-populist party would be represented in parliament after this year's general election.

RadioRaheem84

25th March 2010, 16:44

But do Swedes view the US as a first world nation like theirs? What do they think of the poverty rate in the US, the crime, the debt load, etc?

I am asking because I am wondering if I should stop viewing my country as this "rich" nation, akin to the social democracies in Europe and see it more or less like a China or Russia.

ContrarianLemming

25th March 2010, 16:46

america is unpopular in europe, though obama has strenghtened it popularity, europeans see america as a bully

which doctor

25th March 2010, 16:55

America has a certain 'dynamism' that Canada and European countries lack.

Dimentio

25th March 2010, 17:05

danyboy27

25th March 2010, 17:28

i dont know for the rest of canada, but in Quebec, the usa have always been seen negatively by our media, our intellectuals and by the lower class.

its slowly changing tho, our healthcare is shit here, mainly beccause of the fucked up governement who have a bad habit of not managing well.
There is a lot of stories about how the pay per use system is efficient, and a lot of people are now joining private clinics.

Ligeia

25th March 2010, 18:00

In Germany:
Depends, I'd say there's a general admiration for U.S.american culture in music and films, no doubt about that.
When it comes to politics, the U.S. was viewed as some war-monger or something like that and superficiality,...when it comes to its economy, it's not admired for its social system, and people were genereally proud to have a welfare capitalist state with (more or less) free education and health care and did not see the U.S. system as something to be strived for.

But nowadays,....seems like times are changing. At least the media wants to promote the U.S. lifestyle and system to cut down social services, make people support war,indoctrinate people into social darwinism, harder punishments..etc. They are made believe that times have changed and the U.S. system is the way to go because that's "progressive".

So, I'm not sure if the media succeeds in this task of persuasion(hopefully not, but probably yes), I think there's still some kind of reluctance to accept those things generally.

Maybe the U.S. is called first world because of its imperialism?

Common_Means

25th March 2010, 18:32

Anti-intellectual.

RadioRaheem84

25th March 2010, 21:14

Well our culture is anti-intellectual but I never saw that as such a negative aspect about the US. We're skeptical and cynical toward those in power but sometimes its bad because people choose to trust right wingers instead. It's just that intellectuals in this country have been proven wrong so many times and the corruption in politics has made everyone so extremely cynical that our skepticism is confused for anti-intellectualism.

But I think that is miles better than the Eurocentric, technocratic, wonkish, liberalism that infests Europe like a plague. Gosh, it was annoying to hear so many Europeans, especially Northern Europeans; German, Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, etc. yak on and on about their strong social democracies, and great efficiency. It was as if they've found this great pragmatic middle ground between capitalism and socialism. Very third way-ish. Then again they're the most to believe what big corporations like Goldman Sachs tell them to believe. It was so annoying to argue against a stuck up Dane, who majored in something specifically technocratic like Capital Market Econometrics Blah Blah and claiming that everything could be solved by more efficiency and proving it with stats. :rolleyes:

But nowadays,....seems like times are changing. At least the media wants to promote the U.S. lifestyle and system to cut down social services, make people support war,indoctrinate people into social darwinism, harder punishments..etc. They are made believe that times have changed and the U.S. system is the way to go because that's "progressive".

So, I'm not sure if the media succeeds in this task of persuasion(hopefully not, but probably yes), I think there's still some kind of reluctance to accept those things generally.

Technically, the welfare social democratic state is on its way out. It's highly prone to stagnation and with corporate libertarianism being the paradigm thinking of the day, you can expect more rollbacks to the welfare state. Social Democracy truly was only a temporary measure, I am not quite sure how it became an actual political doctrine.

But don't let the politicians rouse your people into thinking that its either the US or the highway.

Revolutionary Pseudonym

25th March 2010, 22:27

OCMO

25th March 2010, 22:49

In Portugal, people consume america culture very much and everyone loves LA and NYC. But a lot of us see the american people as stupid for some news that we heard, like a car accident because a woman was shaving her privates while driving or the school rampages, and shows like The Daily Show that interviews stupid people, like a guy that sees a catholic conspiracy with the US government because the US Postal made a stamp with Madre Teresa on it.:lol:

Ligeia

25th March 2010, 23:00

Technically, the welfare social democratic state is on its way out. It's highly prone to stagnation and with corporate libertarianism being the paradigm thinking of the day, you can expect more rollbacks to the welfare state. Social Democracy truly was only a temporary measure, I am not quite sure how it became an actual political doctrine.

Yeah, that's what the people are realizing now and gradually facing all its consequences. They are very apathetic now and social rollbacks have already been made(in the last 10 years) but they (corporates and politicians) want more and more.

Well, nonetheless, I think that the first world status lies in domination in contemporary culture (also economic point of views) and also its imperialistic behaviour, though it may not be popular it's a sign of some kind of power which you won't expect in a non-first world country.
(Not to say other states don't indulge in this behaviour,as well but not to that extent and/or that openly.)

RadioRaheem84

26th March 2010, 00:30

This is is in stark contrast to the liberal, open, welfare states we see in mainland Europe (particularlly France, the Netherlands, Switzerland and the Scandenavian countries) which we prefer to UK and the US.

Liberal, open doesn't translate into more equality, just more concessions to the working class and more consolidation of capital by the few. I am sorry but your countries in Europe may have great welfare services to its citizens but they are also horribly elitist in a lot of ways too. Classes are very evident. There is diversity but there is a lack of diversity outside of the "diverse culture" created by the liberalism. There is an attitude, especially among the Northern Europeans, that Social Democracy rules and everything else drools. Being anti-establishment is probably seen as being rather crass and vulgar. I think you would have an easier time convincing an American who can see exploitation pretty clearly in the workplace of an alternative to capitalism, then someone from Denmark or Sweden who has plenty of social benefits but still lives in a social hierarchy.

jake williams

26th March 2010, 00:43

i dont know for the rest of canada, but in Quebec, the usa have always been seen negatively by our media, our intellectuals and by the lower class.
I tend to disagree a bit. There is a segment of the Quebec intelligenstia and political class who has a weird obsession with the United States - I can't think of any names off the top of my head other than Levesque, but there are quite a few of them. I can't imagine a street in Toronto being named after Kennedy. I don't know if it because they're not Canadian or because they threw of the monarchy or what, but it's there. Certainly it's small and sometimes the anti-Americanism in Quebec is more intense than in english Canada, but it exists and it's interesting.

Growing up in english Canada we learned that Americans, aside from being fat and smelly and stupid and violent, want to invade our country, kill our leaders, and make us all live at McDonalds. That was basically the picture. The country was founded by pro-monarchy British settlers, some of whom formed the ruling class in the Canadian colonies already, some of whom fled from what became the United States. Confederation happened in response to the threat of American invasion. The capital was placed in Ottawa because it was a backwater far from the border. Ben Franklin published editorials saying that the US should conquer Canada.

Anti-American is Canadian nationalism, and insofar as that it's a lot more intense than outsiders really realize. If anything it can be problematic for crossborder solidarity and such. I think it's an interesting case study of "anti-imperialist nationalism", but internal to the anglo-american imperialist bloc... it's a bit of a complex case. Generally speaking though, the understanding of the United States is not profound here.

I have some friends from the PCF who insist that Sarkozy is worse than the fascists. They think Obama is imperialist monster, but I'm pretty sure they don't think he's worse than fascists. And they're not excited about Canada either.

its slowly changing tho, our healthcare is shit here, mainly beccause of the fucked up governement who have a bad habit of not managing well.
There is a lot of stories about how the pay per use system is efficient, and a lot of people are now joining private clinics.
Public services in Quebec are reasonably good, they'd get a hell of a lot worse if Charest gets his way. The problem is you have a right wing government trying to break the public services, not that the private system is better.

RadioRaheem84

26th March 2010, 00:55

Yeah, that's what the people are realizing now and gradually facing all its consequences. They are very apathetic now and social rollbacks have already been made(in the last 10 years) but they (corporates and politicians) want more and more.

If he European Social Democracies go, then the world's standard of living will have officially plummeted.

scarletghoul

26th March 2010, 01:13

Amerikans are typically thought of as fat and stupid.

the last donut of the night

26th March 2010, 01:25

In Brazil, the view of Americans is not a very good one. Brazilians will use the word "gringo" to refer to anybody from white tourists to American imperialists. For example, in Rio, which receives a lot of American tourists, people will complain that they are ugly, fat, corny, or just looking for easy sex in Latin America. The mistrust is built upon the fact that Rio in the 50's was a playground for the American rich (sort of like Cuba before the revolution) while a lot of people lived in the favelas. Also, it is widely known in Brazil that the US aided the military coup of 1964. I'd say there is a lot of anti-american, anti-imperialist consciousness among the Brazilian people and political sphere. Once I visited a Marxist fair in Rio, and one booth was selling shirts with a picture of Brazil's famous cartoon characters driving away Bugsbunny -- the caption was, "NO TO AMERICAN CULTURAL IMPERIALISM!":thumbup1:

RadioRaheem84

26th March 2010, 01:29

Jeez, what about Brits and other Europeans? Why do they get a pass when their corporations do as much damage to the third world as Americans ones do to?

Pjotr

26th March 2010, 03:19

I'm speaking from a Belgian (Flemish, for what it's worth) perspective. I think most belgians have a very ambiguous perspective about the USA. I think most Belgians are actually rather 'imperialist' (even though they don't recognize it, but they're mostly in favor of NATO). Also, racism is a very serious problem in Belgium, especially against people who are perceived as 'muslims' or 'Arabs' (racists can't recognize the difference). Also, Belgians are mostly consumerists, just like Americans. Many of 'us' laugh about very extreme consumerist behaviours (as shown on MTV), but still these kind of consumerist behaviour is spreading.

On the otherside, Belgians are mostly - when you ask them about specific policies such as health care, social security and labour union - very negative about the USA. Most Belgians have health care, appreciate social security and are in favour of labour unions. But you should realize that these instruments are mostly evaluated with the capacity to consume as a standard. I think that's the main reason why our so called system of 'solidarity' goes hand in hand with xenophobia, racism and nationalism. Most Belgians despise the kind of extreme capitalism the USA defends and they especially despice American conservative policies on issues as homosexuality, euthanasia and abortion, but when it comes to economic and political international relationships they aren't fundamentally opposed to US-imperialism. Unfortunately.

jake williams

26th March 2010, 03:31

Jeez, what about Brits and other Europeans? Why do they get a pass when their corporations do as much damage to the third world as Americans ones do to?
National bourgeoisies use populist "anti-Americanism" as political tools.

Revolutionary Pseudonym

26th March 2010, 07:50

Liberal, open doesn't translate into more equality, just more concessions to the working class and more consolidation of capital by the few. I am sorry but your countries in Europe may have great welfare services to its citizens but they are also horribly elitist in a lot of ways too. Classes are very evident. There is diversity but there is a lack of diversity outside of the "diverse culture" created by the liberalism. There is an attitude, especially among the Northern Europeans, that Social Democracy rules and everything else drools. Being anti-establishment is probably seen as being rather crass and vulgar. I think you would have an easier time convincing an American who can see exploitation pretty clearly in the workplace of an alternative to capitalism, then someone from Denmark or Sweden who has plenty of social benefits but still lives in a social hierarchy.

That is so, and I am well aware of that, I was trying to express the views of the people I know generally as opposed to soley my own beliefs. However I do find that people in Europe seem a lot less 'brainwashed' by the state than in the US which can make things easier, however this is only from my limited experience.

Ligeia

26th March 2010, 09:17

I am sorry but your countries in Europe may have great welfare services to its citizens but they are also horribly elitist in a lot of ways too. Classes are very evident. There is diversity but there is a lack of diversity outside of the "diverse culture" created by the liberalism. There is an attitude, especially among the Northern Europeans, that Social Democracy rules and everything else drools. Being anti-establishment is probably seen as being rather crass and vulgar. I think you would have an easier time convincing an American who can see exploitation pretty clearly in the workplace of an alternative to capitalism, then someone from Denmark or Sweden who has plenty of social benefits but still lives in a social hierarchy.
That's unfortunately quite right. You'll hardly find anyone who's anti-establishment. If at all most would want to see the "good old days" back. As long as they can live comfortably, anything and anybody else isn't important (quite shocking stances). But I think this will change soon.
And especially here in Germany classes are very evident to say the least. You just have to look at its school system, it's like a class-selection system. Children of poor working class or unemployed or just immigrant parents are send to one school, while childrens of technicians are sent to another, and children of bureaucrats and burgeoisie to another school (which leads straight to university).
So, there's some eurocentrism and elitism and elitism in their very own societies, too. And I think that these stances permit to paint the U.S. as a bad place although politically and historically, they aren't too different at all. But again, there's a trend to reverse this kind of "old" point of views in Europe (well, Germany at least) and now praise the U.S..
Anyway,It's just politics led by economic convenience and if economic needs point to this or that, they'll make it so and try to build a new kind of hegemony.
My observations.

Die Rote Fahne

26th March 2010, 09:53

It differs from each region of Canada.

The North and the Eastern part is less likely to be "pro-american", whilst the west, as a conservative base, is more likely to be "pro-american"

RadioRaheem84

26th March 2010, 15:07

However I do find that people in Europe seem a lot less 'brainwashed' by the state than in the US which can make things easier, however this is only from my limited experience.

We're extremely cynical and skeptical but will fall for any politician that will claim to help us.

So, there's some eurocentrism and elitism and elitism in their very own societies, too. And I think that these stances permit to paint the U.S. as a bad place although politically and historically, they aren't too different at all. But again, there's a trend to reverse this kind of "old" point of views in Europe (well, Germany at least) and now praise the U.S..
Anyway,It's just politics led by economic convenience and if economic needs point to this or that, they'll make it so and try to build a new kind of hegemony.
My observations.

The US can seem like classless society in some senses and then extremely class based in others. Most of the general population though is mixed with rich kids, poor kids and middle class kids in the suburbs. The only thing that takes the place of class is cash. While your societies maybe class based because of tradition, you would be much better off with that then one where money rules all. There are pros and cons to it. In the States, it's easier to mingle with people who have a lot of money, network and build connections but it also take a lot of humiliation, stress, hard work, risks and selling out if you want riches. I would much rather just be a part of a class like in Europe and have most of my needs met, but it would probably suck seeing an obvious class difference everyday and thinking there is nothing I can do about it. With the exception of NY and LA, most Americans aren't in contact with this great wealth gap divide.

How hard is it to break out of one's class in Europe? In the US it's not difficult unless you're totally destitute and even then most Americans only ascend to a level average Northern Europeans are used to.

which doctor

26th March 2010, 16:27

RadioRaheem84

26th March 2010, 16:39

This is is in stark contrast to the liberal, open, welfare states we see in mainland Europe (particularlly France, the Netherlands, Switzerland and the Scandenavian countries) which we prefer to UK and the US.

You guys have to work on your treatment of middle easterners though. When I visited France, I think that I received the cold shoulder because people confused for me for being Algerian, as I look very North African/Mediterranean. One guy blatantly asked me, "is it Hanukkah for you this time of year" ?

Are Arabs, Isrealis, North Africans, Turks etc. just looked down upon in Northern and Central Europe? What gives?

Ligeia

26th March 2010, 18:21

I would much rather just be a part of a class like in Europe and have most of my needs met, but it would probably suck seeing an obvious class difference everyday and thinking there is nothing I can do about it.

How hard is it to break out of one's class in Europe? In the US it's not difficult unless you're totally destitute and even then most Americans only ascend to a level average Northern Europeans are used to.
If you start at school (your parents sending you to the Gymnasium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_%28school%29) after elementary school) you already have good chances....that's the special case here in Germany. But most parents will listen to the elementary teacher's recommendations (which are based on class mostly).

Other than that...It's possible but I'm not sure if it's easier or how easy it is compared to the U.S..
Though there are some strongholds like the civil servants/bureaucrats (Beamte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beamter))....which I've never heard that somebody has "broken out"of their class into that one.

You guys have to work on your treatment of middle easterners though. When I visited France, I think that I received the cold shoulder because people confused for me for being Algerian, as I look very North African/Mediterranean.
I look like an East-Asian to most and get a cold treatment very often which is pretty annoying. (Only once I've been mistaken for an Algerian by an old 90 year old man who then told me how he likes his turkish chauffeur because he always calls him "boss").

Are Arabs, Isrealis, North Africans, Turks etc. just looked down upon in Northern and Central Europe? What gives?Especially Middle-Eastern people are looked down upon but I guess it's because of the whole propaganda of the last years. Although there has been a latent racism before that towards non-European looking people which was and is all about the usual stuff like foreigners stealing jobs, working on the black market, harming the economy or just being lazy on welfare, being criminals..etc. And mediterranean and middle-eastern people(and east-europeans) are one of the most common immigrant groups in central Europe.

I think there is no particularly different reason for racism towards others in Europe than there is in the U.S.. Though e.g. in Spain it seems like racism towards Latin Americans stems out of colonial history, too.

RadioRaheem84

26th March 2010, 19:36

If you start at school (your parents sending you to the Gymnasium (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_%28school%29) after elementary school) you already have good chances....that's the special case here in Germany. But most parents will listen to the elementary teacher's recommendations (which are based on class mostly).

Other than that...It's possible but I'm not sure if it's easier or how easy it is compared to the U.S.. The only thing I like about the US is that elitism is not all that tolerated. At least in public its not. At least that is how it used to be, it's changed in the last decade or so as Americans try to be more "Euro" and "classy". More emphasis has been put in on luxury goods, elitist schools, celebrity and socialist obsession.

But overall, the only way it's "easier" for people to escape their class is to fully capitulate to the system and the system will generally help you out so they can create another little banker, engineer, lawyer, doctor, professional, petit-bourgeoisie.. That is why this class is so thoroughly right wing. You just go to public school K-12, go to State university (major in Business, Engineering, Pre-Med), and get job with local firms or small businesses and boom, you're a yuppie, work five to ten years, boom you're a middle manager type living in an upper middle class neighborhood listening to right wing radio on your way to work. But the process takes a lot of capitulation to the system, so much so that it's nearly impossible to go back. You will have thought that anyone can do it if you did it coming from a lower working class background, never got into trouble with the law and worked while going to school part time. You will think of yourself as the "self made man" and have 0 tolerance for "excuses".

Ligeia

26th March 2010, 20:05

The only thing I like about the US is that elitism is not all that tolerated. At least in public its not. At least that is how it used to be, it's changed in the last decade or so as Americans try to be more "Euro" and "classy". More emphasis has been put in on luxury goods, elitist schools, celebrity and socialist obsession.
Intresting, some of those are things which are assumed to come from the U.S. in the media,...I think, that this: in the U.S. propagating this stuff as being "Euro", while in Europe other or similar things are propagated as being "American" and therefore good is a trend which serves a certain purpose....to sustain capitalism in a harder form.

I mean, why should there be suddenly such a change in stances otherwise?

You will have thought that anyone can do it if you did it coming from a lower working class background, never got into trouble with the law and worked while going to school part time. You will think of yourself as the "self made man" and have 0 tolerance for "excuses".See? This "self made man" concept wasn't very popular here, and now it is more and more accepted, to promote this idea of 0 tolerance to cut off all solidarity that might have existed before for all the welfare services.

It almost seems as if capitalist try to pick the worst aspects of their models and further them in the last few years.

RadioRaheem84

26th March 2010, 20:20

See? This "self made man" concept wasn't very popular here, and now it is more and more accepted, to promote this idea of 0 tolerance to cut off all solidarity that might have existed before for all the welfare services.

It almost seems as if capitalist try to pick the worst aspects of their models and further them in the last few years.

Even Liberals in the US act this way to some extent. They just want to appear compassionate. Do let that mindset penetrate Europe. It's sick and creates some of the most unbearable people in the world. In all my years on this Earth, there is no one more unbearable than the upper middle class self made man, the middle manager, engineer, petit-bourgeoisie type. I've met multi-millionaires who were nicer and more understanding of people's circumstances than the types I mentioned. They form a large part of the mainstream Republican base too.

Intresting, some of those are things which are assumed to come from the U.S. in the media,...I think, that this: in the U.S. propagating this stuff as being "Euro", while in Europe other or similar things are propagated as being "American" and therefore good is a trend which serves a certain purpose....to sustain capitalism in a harder form.

I mean, why should there be suddenly such a change in stances otherwise?

How could Europeans think that comes from the US? Maybe NY or LA, but that is not mainstream American culture, and we think of it as stemming from European culture. The obsession with fashion, hair, luxury items, socialites, prestige and glamor is more of a high society European thing in our eyes. Americans are materialistic yes but I don't think it ever went pass a Mustang GT/I-Roc Camaro and some nice shoes. The whole metrosexual thing came from Europe as far as we were concerned.

Ligeia

26th March 2010, 20:33

How could Europeans think that comes from the US? Maybe NY or LA, but that is not mainstream American culture, and we think of it as stemming from European culture. The obsession with fashion, hair, luxury items, socialites, prestige and glamor is more of a high society European thing in our eyes. Americans are materialistic yes but I don't think it ever went pass a Mustang GT/I-Roc Camaro and some nice shoes. The whole metrosexual thing came from Europe as far as we were concerned.
Yes, quite so, I agree.
I was more referring to that elitism stuff, though people could think that a classist society bears some elitism it wasn't sensed. Only with the rise of paying for university education, more private schools, more involvement from business into universities..etc. there is some recognition of elitism now in Europe.
Or celebrity obsession, people think it generated in the U.S. and U.K.,...and that socialist obsession; depends on how you define that one.
I thought of this socialist obsession as of trying to generate a "red scare", this hadn't happened before to that extent that it happens now, and it's something that seems to be stemming from the U.S.
I'm just telling you what the media and intelligentia is generally propagating in that sense whether viewers and readers like to differentiate or reflect over those things is another question.

Again, seems like they are just meddling horrible point of views in one pot.

JacobVardy

27th March 2010, 00:39

The view from Australia is one of mild bemusement, nervousness and occasional irritation. This has especially been the case in the health care debate. Having had variants of a Universal Health Care system since 1973, most Australians do not understand what the problem is. Aussies tend to find Yankee chauvinism irritating, and worry about the occasion crazy like Bush or Palin. There are frequent stories like the woman who crashed her car while shaving her pubes, and people will shake their heads and say "only in America". However, the attitude is generally positive and Australians do consume a huge amount if Yankee culture.

Demogorgon

27th March 2010, 01:11

I think people in Scotland tend to be quite condescending towards America as a rule. It is hypocritical really as we hoover up American films, music, products etc but generally people here tend to think of themselves as smarter than Americans. I believe Michael Moore once said the view abroad of George Bush was that Americans had elected an idiot President for an idiot Nation and that was very much the opinion here. It is unfair, because after all Scots like a lot of American stuff but there tends to be an automatic reaction to focus on the worst aspects of America and also to try and avoid think of good things as being American.

However opinions of America seem to have improved a lot with Obama. To say he is popular over here is a bit like saying it sometimes rains in Glasgow.

As a funny aside, Obama was caught on camera during a visit here calling UK level Conservative leader David Cameron "utterly inadequate" and a "complete lightweight", so it will be interesting to see what relations will be like if Cameron becomes Prime Minister. American Presidents are traditionally exceptionally polite about UK Prime Ministers, so to have the President caught making a comment like that about a potential future Prime Minister is pretty funny. Mind you that hasn't stopped Cameron trying to compare himself to Obama.

RadioRaheem84

27th March 2010, 01:24

It's strange how Obama is so loved in Europe though. I remember attending an Obama election party and there were more internationals there than nationals. An Aussie greeted me and thanked me for voting for Obama like I had saved his life or something. I mean with the exception of African Americans and liberals, no one in the States, thought that Obama was anything messianic like the media portrayed.

Sometimes it seems to me that while Europeans mock us for believing anything on the News, I have seen more Europeans fall for anything liberal, on the cusp or trendy pop academic crap. Your populations are very trustworthy of experts in academia. Intellectuals are like superstars there too, especially in France.

Rottenfruit

27th March 2010, 20:27

RadioRaheem84

28th March 2010, 05:34

Oh so like Christian jihadists.....?

Devrim

28th March 2010, 10:43

The general opinion amongst my friends (in the UK) is that America is a country full of backwards retards. We tend to see them as overweight war mongering fools who's imperialistic ramblings have landed the rest of the world in a whole load of mess.
We see it as a country of stark contradictions: full of over religious, gun carrying, self minded people. Most of the people I know hate the "America is the best, always has been, always will be" attitude most Americans seem to have.
We see it as very backwards nation without even any forms of basic welfare state systems.
Although we see you as a first world country in respect to your economics and industry, this does not transpond into us believing you as our equals or as 'civilised' as us: we often see you as very undereducated, consumeristic and very prejudece against those different to the "White Christian middle class", eg. homophobic, racist, anti liberal etc.
This is is in stark contrast to the liberal, open, welfare states we see in mainland Europe (particularlly France, the Netherlands, Switzerland and the Scandenavian countries) which we prefer to UK and the US.

I think that this sounds quite harsh, but probably sums up what people in Europe think about Americans pretty well. I have asked some people at work over the past few days what they think of Americans. The terms that I have heard most often have been "fat", "arrogant", and "ignorant". I think that is quite fair to say that America is generally disliked in Europe. Here in the Middle East it is hated.

Also, I think that there is an impression of the US as a country where people are rich, which is quite false. Most people here don't know that much about what the US is really like (I have relatives there, and have been there twice). One of the secretaries at my work was in complete disbelief when I told her that generally Americans get two weeks holiday a year. and the state does not cover medical costs for the poor.

My personal impression of the States is that it is a place where working class living standards are quite low compared to Western Europe, and the welfare state system is inferior to that of developing countries such as this one.

Before first going there I also had the idea that the US would be just like England, but bigger. It is not. It is an intensely religious place, for one. I get the feeling that in general it is much more religious than the 'Muslim world'.

It's strange how Obama is so loved in Europe though. I remember attending an Obama election party and there were more internationals there than nationals. An Aussie greeted me and thanked me for voting for Obama like I had saved his life or something. I mean with the exception of African Americans and liberals, no one in the States, thought that Obama was anything messianic like the media portrayed.

Sometimes it seems to me that while Europeans mock us for believing anything on the News, I have seen more Europeans fall for anything liberal, on the cusp or trendy pop academic crap. Your populations are very trustworthy of experts in academia. Intellectuals are like superstars there too, especially in France.

I think you have some very strange perceptions about Europe. Obama is not loved. He was popular for a while after his victory. I think it has certainly faded now. Also I go to France often, and have never had the impression that intellectuals are superstars.

Devrim

Wanted Man

28th March 2010, 11:09

It's impossible to speak for an entire country or continent from one's own experiences, but for what it's worth:

The perspective here seems pretty ambiguous, like the Belgian guy said earlier. We get in touch with a lot of American culture through music, Hollywood, animation, series, etc. Contrary to France, Germany, Spain, etc., English-language films and series are usually only subtitled in Dutch, not dubbed (except for children's cartoons). So it can certainly be said that we eagerly consume American products, without much complaints. That often seems to be the case, even in countries with negative opinions of the USA.

Also, a decent amount of young people have an overseas experience in the US; I have a few students in my class, both of whom went to California. They do tend to avoid "flyover country", usually going to one of the big cities on either coast. This one girl in my class went to Boston and was very positive about it; it seems like a city with a more "European" air to it, I guess.

Politically, people are quite opinionated about racism, homophobia and sexism in American society, but they often simply blame "rednecks" or fundamentalist Christianity for it. Many social-democratic leaders and intellectuals were very pleased when Obama came to power, and some of them did indeed travel to the US to participate in the campaign. Quite a few people are still enthusiastic about his healthcare plan, but are very skeptical of his foreign policy. This is because the Netherlands has troops in Afghanistan, who are set to leave this year, but the Obama government is perceived as having pressured the Dutch government to break its promise and extend their stay, which centrist and right-wing Dutch government officials also supported. The government recently fell over this, because the social-democrats refused to go along with this scheme.

To get back to both the cultural aspect and the ideas about "rednecks", most people are unfortunately very unaware of the USA's rich heritage of working-class culture. Of course, this also tends to be co-opted or kept silent in such a way that people from outside of the US would have to have a very specific interest (i.e. being a communist) to know about it.

Dimentio

28th March 2010, 11:23

How hard is it to break out of one's class in Europe? In the US it's not difficult unless you're totally destitute and even then most Americans only ascend to a level average Northern Europeans are used to.

Its actually easier to break out from the class in Sweden than in the USA, mostly because if you fall there's always a second chance and a safety net.

RadioRaheem84

29th March 2010, 01:24

Its actually easier to break out from the class in Sweden than in the USA, mostly because if you fall there's always a second chance and a safety net.

There are second chances in the US but when you fall, you fall hard, like having to start all over again as if you were 15 years old getting your first part time job.

The Ghost of Revolutions

29th March 2010, 05:11

When I was in Europe all the people told me how great the USA was. I was actually surprised to hear this. Someone told me how luckly I was to have Bush as leader:blink:

black magick hustla

29th March 2010, 05:42

I never got this whole impression of there not being culture in America. Some of the most interesting artistic currents are American.

To be honest, I am somewhat fond of the "anti-intellectual" attitude of the US. I've met some college artistic liberals and a lot of them can be quite awful.

MarxSchmarx

29th March 2010, 07:55

It is hard to generalize, at least with respect to Europeans. In eastern and parts of southern Europe there is still a lot of affection towards the US, ditto in Ireland and to a lesser extent among Brits outside of London.

In western Europe, some refrains, like "lacks a culture" you hear a lot, but in general I've found a lot of people, at least on the continent, to be somewhat indifferent to their culture to the point where they don't particularly feel superior to americans over this. Also many people from Scandinavia I've met come from places that were only recently settled as well and don't have any sense of superiority, although those from long settled places tend to be a bit more ridiculous.

It's also worth noting that a lot of the derision comes from people of an older generation or otherwise moderately well-educated people. Among the older generation, one needs to understand just how reactionary their societies were - there was really a time when "Americanism" had a lefty connotation to it, and a lot of this still rings true. Often it is a reaction against supposed "American" values like racial pluralism and secular education (!). People with a secondary school degree and who were born after the war (at least in the north-west) do not, in general, appear to be particularly anti-american.

I never got this whole impression of there not being culture in America. Some of the most interesting artistic currents are American.

It's a combination of racism ("yes, the blues are nice, but is it Beethoven?"), ignorance, and, well, self-congratulations. You don't hear this much in, for example, Africa or India.

Often tho I think most settler societies suffer an inferiority complex to the mother country, and Americans and Canadians are particularly sensitive to this "you lack a culture" charge.

Wanted Man

29th March 2010, 12:44

When I was in Europe all the people told me how great the USA was. I was actually surprised to hear this. Someone told me how luckly I was to have Bush as leader:blink:

What countries? It's impossible to generalise all of Europe.

The Ghost of Revolutions

29th March 2010, 19:42

What countries? It's impossible to generalise all of Europe.
Ireland, UK, France,Italy, Switzerland, and Germany. The conversation about bush happend in the UK.

RadioRaheem84

29th March 2010, 20:12

Has there been a general shift in Europe's overall thinking? Has the media been harping on how they should look more like the US economically in some ways?

Revolutionary Pseudonym

29th March 2010, 22:42

Ireland, UK, France,Italy, Switzerland, and Germany. The conversation about bush happend in the UK.

When was this …?

black magick hustla

30th March 2010, 00:34

black magick hustla

30th March 2010, 00:36

Maybe its just the fact that I live in a college town near detroit. So much disgusting shit is said about detroit and people tiptoe around the issue a lot. It is disgusting

Wanted Man

30th March 2010, 00:43

Ireland, UK, France,Italy, Switzerland, and Germany. The conversation about bush happend in the UK.

I see. That is indeed possible.

Has there been a general shift in Europe's overall thinking? Has the media been harping on how they should look more like the US economically in some ways?

What do you mean, "Europe's overall thinking"?

RadioRaheem84

30th March 2010, 03:10

I see. That is indeed possible.

What do you mean, "Europe's overall thinking"?

OK, let's start with your nation. I just keep reading about some politicians in European countries like France, Germany and the UK saying that they should be a bit more like America economically. Liberalize more. How do citizens feel about that?

Klaatu

30th March 2010, 04:41

america is unpopular in europe, though obama has strenghtened it popularity, europeans see america as a bully

Please don't think of all of us as bullies here. I, for one, oppose war, violence,
crime, and immorality. What you see in the media is really the worst of what
goes on here. This is sensationalism for it's own sake - and for profit's sake.
(One more demerit on capitalism.) And our violent movies, they are not at all
like everyday life in the US, although there is a growing number of kooks in
this country who seem to think this is all to be taken seriously - that is, they
are too stupid to understand that movies and media are made only as a
profit-making machine for media and Hollywood capitalists. The real USA
is better than that (for now anyway)

MarxSchmarx

30th March 2010, 08:34

It's a combination of racism ("yes, the blues are nice, but is it Beethoven?"), ignorance, and, well, self-congratulations. You don't hear this much in, for example, Africa or India.This is everywhere. I think some of the nastiest prejudices are in third world countries. In mexico gay people get beaten to death and "indian" is an insult for ignorant people.

The difference is that the prejudices you speak of are often internalized as a result of colonialism. In central america and the carribean, for example, the racism is really parroting American segregation. In countries like Mexico or Brazil a lot of the bigotry is among people who are somehow more "European"than the person they are diminishing - for instance, even poor European farmers have these attitudes imbued by the Spaniards that they are somehow more respectable than the professionals of indigenous descent. The same dynamic is true in parts of China where ethnic minorities are a majority of the population or in cosmopolitan cities of Africa with a large mixed population.

However in Europe these prejudices are not so much defenesive reactions to desparetely distinguish oneself from the "rest of my neighbors", so much as overt expressions of the inherent superiority of not only the individual or their ineage but their entire society and community at large.

Devrim

30th March 2010, 08:59

OK, let's start with your nation. I just keep reading about some politicians in European countries like France, Germany and the UK saying that they should be a bit more like America economically. Liberalize more. How do citizens feel about that?

I think there was a process of privatisation, which happened internationally dating from the period of Regan and Thatcher. In some countries this trend managed to develop more than in others. I think in some ways it has passes its ebb now.

There are of course still people who support privatisation, and there will still be more privatisations in the future.

I don't think it makes any sense to talk from a socialist point of view about how 'citizens' see these things. Society is divided into classes. The 'middle' class and upper classes tended to be very in favour of these things, particularly in the UK when they were basically sold on the cheap to the 'middles classes', who turned a quick buck on them.

In general privatisations have been used to attack wages and working conditions and increase profits, including by decreasing the quality of service in many parts of the old public sector. Of course, most working class people are against these things.

Devrim

Devrim

2nd April 2010, 07:39

MarxSchmarx

2nd April 2010, 07:59

Often it is a reaction against supposed "American" values like racial pluralism and secular education (!). People with a secondary school degree and who were born after the war (at least in the north-west) do not, in general, appear to be particularly anti-american.This made me laugh out loud. America is probably the second most racist country I have been too, but only because I have been to Israel. Most Europeans of the generation being referred to can remember the time of official segregation. When I was in America I was quite shocked getting off the subway and seeing all the blacks walking in one dircetion and whites walking in another. Housing is still segregated in reality. You can still talk about 'black areas which is don't really exist anywhere in Europe.

Devrim

You need to look at some of the propaganda of the European right from the second world war. An amazing amount was dedicated to how American "buffalo soldiers", American jews, etc... would raid and pillage "white Europe", and how the American black culture has rendered it permanently substandard to its European original. There was a reason this nonsense was so effective in some quarters.

FurTher, there are less "black-areas" because the population of sub-Saharan African descent in Europe is not nearly as large as the population in America. I know for a fact there are indeed "black areas" in areas with large populations of people of sub-Saharan African descent, as in parts of Madrid. This is no longer uniquely American, and in several European cities you can go to parts of town that are all immigrant or non-indigenous, however with housing and schooling exactly as you describe (I've lived in such neighborhoods throughout Europe). The difference I find is that there is a strong social taboo in America against expressing preference for that segregation. But in Europe I find native people are more open to their dislike of immigrant concentrations.

Finally, I am yet to meet a person from Africa, east or south Asia, or indigenous Latin American living in Europe who strongly feels they are treated better than they would be in America. Middle Easterners (except Israelis and some Christians) and highly educated professionals from developing countries have, in my experience, been the exception. Still most in fact readily comment on the open racism they've encountered, whereas in America people are quick to point out how bad their acquaintances who emigrated to Europe have it. Perhaps in America it is more subtle and engrained, but frankly that just shows how much farther a lot of Europe has to go.

Devrim

2nd April 2010, 08:24

FurTher, there are less "black-areas" because the population of sub-Saharan African descent in Europe is not nearly as large as the population in America. I know for a fact there are indeed "black areas" in areas with large populations of people of sub-Saharan African descent, as in parts of Madrid. This is no longer uniquely American, and in several European cities you can go to parts of town that are all immigrant or non-indigenous, however with housing and schooling exactly as you describe (I've lived in such neighborhoods throughout Europe). The difference I find is that there is a strong social taboo in America against expressing preference for that segregation. But in Europe I find native people are more open to their dislike of immigrant concentrations.

I can't comment on Madrid, as I have never been there, but in general areas that are referred to as 'black' are in fact pretty mixed. If we look at the UK for example, there is only one borough, which is majority non-white, Tower Hamlets, and all of the other areas which are talked about as 'black areas' are in fat majority white. The suburbs of Paris, which are described as immigrant areas are the same. I don't know which cities you are talking about.

Devrim

Argument

2nd April 2010, 17:14

Americans are often seen as greedy, gun-loving, stupid, bad at Geography, arrogant, nationalistic, patriotic, racist, technophobic, conservative, self-centered, selfish, uncaring, suing, homophobic christian fundamentalists who don't care about the environment. The US government, especially under Bush, was seen as imperalistic, capitalistic, greedy, power-hungry, authoritarian, and the US wants to play World Police. Swedes tend to like US movies, though.

Are Arabs, Isrealis, North Africans, Turks etc. just looked down upon in Northern and Central Europe? What gives?Yes. I blame the US, you create a lot of trouble in the Middle east, then you refuse to accept the refugees, so they go to Sweden and other European countries. We have more Arabs than Black people here. The reason some people don't like them, well... Some are criminals, some live on welfare, and they bring new culture. The xenophobes don't like them. Personally, I think Sweden should bring in refugees, although I think other countries (like the US, Finland, the UK, etc) should accept more than they do today. Does the US even have 2% of the population from the Middle east? According to Wikipedia, only 0.6% of the population is Muslim! But I digress.

Swedes, on the other hand, tend to worship status quo and the state. Most people are reactionary, they don't want big changes. If the government doesn't take care of us, who will? That seems to be what most people think, at least. I think it's sad.

Argument

2nd April 2010, 17:30

Personally, I don't like US politics, though I don't mind Americans as a people. I've chatted with many Americans on MSN and AIM, and they seem alright. So, I dislike the US government, but the people I don't really mind.

RadioRaheem84

2nd April 2010, 17:31

Stranger Than Paradise

2nd April 2010, 21:04

Devrim

2nd April 2010, 21:07

TheCultofAbeLincoln

2nd April 2010, 23:20

This made me laugh out loud. America is probably the second most racist country I have been too, but only because I have been to Israel. Most Europeans of the generation being referred to can remember the time of official segregation. When I was in America I was quite shocked getting off the subway and seeing all the blacks walking in one dircetion and whites walking in another. Housing is still segregated in reality. You can still talk about 'black areas which is don't really exist anywhere in Europe.

Devrim

Really? I've never been to Europe, but I have a cousin who's a linguist who tells me of neighborhoods just outside of Paris which are vastly more muslim than the general population. Also, reading stories about banning hijabs and minarts seems a bit foreign to me (whilst italians complaining about a loack of jobs due to immigration does ring a bell...)

I attended a high school which was 40% white, with the rest being a mixture of hispanic, muslim, black, jewish, and asian (including korean, chinese, japanese, filipino, indian, pakistani, vietnamese, and cambodian) and this was in a somewhat affluent neighborhood. While segregation does still exist, i couldn't imagine a ban on the hijab like France has done. I lived in a mainly christian area, went to a school which didn't allow headgear, but nobody would ever ask someone to take off a piece of religious apparrel, hijab or yarmulke alike.

Again I've never been to Europe, but it seems as though racism in America may be more subversive, while in Europe there is no real objection to preserving 'the culture' by making laws which are obviously discriminatory.

I mean, a ban on minarets in switzerland? In the christian area I lived, there were still several mosques a short drive away that never faced harrassment.

*Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying America is superior, just that it seems that the US faces a different set of issues than Europe does, and when we are judged it seems as though a double standard is in place at times. Again, not accusing you or anyone on this site, but I will say that in my experience with Europeans that I have known, it appears the US is more open to foreign cultures and more able to assimilate them into our own. This is not true of all the US, to be sure, there are many reactionary areas, and many areas that aren't that multi-ethnic. Shit, when I went to Montana I felt something was wrong, and finally came to the conclusion that it was the fact that everyone was white. No joke, I didn't see a single person of color. Weird.

TheCultofAbeLincoln

2nd April 2010, 23:27

Ironically the Northeast is very segregated and the South, especially Texas cities are surprisingly very integrated for the most part. Boston, in my opinion, is the most segregated city in America.

I responded before reading your quote, and yes I would say it's true.

It shocked me, I expected the opposite moving to TX, but I immediately changed my opinion once I settled down. I used to date a persian girl and we would go to the jewish run bar, across from the black run liquor store, next to the arab run head shop in one of the wealthiest counties in the US. It really was an eye opener.

Segregation still exists, but I wouldn't say it's along racial lines anymore. Yes, blacks and mexicans are over-represented in poor neighborhoods, but there are many poor whites in the same apts. If anything, it's only along class lines at this point.

(There still is a racial element to the culture, however, I can't deny that for a second. But in a way, I feel like TX was one of the more racially mature areas I lived in, believe it or not)

Argument

3rd April 2010, 00:42

My politics class is where I hear most of the opinions about America. To summarise, they see America as fairly backwards and laugh at these anti-healthcare groups. They think that America is very right wing and are proud of Britain because it isn't in their eyes. They're pretty similar to that social democrat smugness you describe.Isn't Britain very right-wing, though? From what I've seen, the Labour Party and the Conservatives seem equally bad nowadays... Both seem keen on controlling their citizens. London has a large quantity of surveillance cameras these days, right? I'll have to admit that I probably don't know nearly as much about UK politics as someone living there, though. Correct me if I'm wrong.

RadioRaheem84

3rd April 2010, 01:02

I responded before reading your quote, and yes I would say it's true.

It shocked me, I expected the opposite moving to TX, but I immediately changed my opinion once I settled down. I used to date a persian girl and we would go to the jewish run bar, across from the black run liquor store, next to the arab run head shop in one of the wealthiest counties in the US. It really was an eye opener.

Segregation still exists, but I wouldn't say it's along racial lines anymore. Yes, blacks and mexicans are over-represented in poor neighborhoods, but there are many poor whites in the same apts. If anything, it's only along class lines at this point.

(There still is a racial element to the culture, however, I can't deny that for a second. But in a way, I feel like TX was one of the more racially mature areas I lived in, believe it or not)

Yeah. When I moved up to Boston to attend college, I was shocked to see that such a "liberal" and "progressive" city was so segregated and extremely class based. People just did not venture into neigborhoods that that weren't supposed to be in. I grew up in inner city Houston where I was used to eating burgers,Chinese for dinner, went to persian bars, dated a Mexican girl, hung out with Russians and Greeks at hooka bars eating Hummus. So when I wanted to try Brazilian food in Boston, some of my college mates thought that it was weird to venture off into Somerville where most of the good Brazilian resturants were at because they were on the Orange line (aka the poor areas). But I was used to running around the entire city of Houston looking for good deals, good meals and stuff to do regardless of the neighborhood. And most of my friends ranged from upper middle to lower middle to working class. People in Boston did not venture outside of their little areas, so they thought that I was strange for not staying in my little neck of the woods.

To all my international comrades, do not believe all the media hype about Texas. In the inner cities we have some of the most progressive elements in the country. If you visit the supposed "liberal" "progressive" bastion of the Northeast and the West Coast, you will see massive segregation, huge casms between the rich and poor, and sheer elitist hypocrisy. I've visited Philly, LA, NY and San Fran and none of them lived up to their "liberal" "progressiveness" quite like inner city Houston, Austin or Dallas.

RadioRaheem84

3rd April 2010, 01:08

Isn't Britain very right-wing, though? From what I've seen, the Labour Party and the Conservatives seem equally bad nowadays... Both seem keen on controlling their citizens. London has a large quantity of surveillance cameras these days, right? I'll have to admit that I probably don't know nearly as much about UK politics as someone living there, though. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I assumed that it was too but in Third Way positionist sort of way, as if third way pseudo social democracy is the new right wing and Tory Conservativism is just a bit to the right of that and openly elitist.

A brilliant documentary that illustrates my point is Adam Curtis's The Trap. New Labour is just Thatcherite Toryism-Lite, but in some ways is worse as while the Tories left the social programs that they didn't cut in tact, New Labour brought in "market efficiency" to the public sector. So not only did they give more power to the private sector, they also messed up the public sector with their technocratic BS.

Since then this created a whole slew of god awful technocratic wonks coming out of college thinking its cool to be "left" and work at a hedge fund.

CartCollector

3rd April 2010, 05:54

They think that America is very right wing and are proud of Britain because it isn't in their eyes.

Ask them this:
-Which country made it a right to not have any poll taxes in the 1960s?
-Which country places the burden of proof in libel cases on the prosecution to show that the libel was intentional (that is, innocent until proven guilty), instead of placing it on the defendant to show that they're innocent?
-Which country doesn't pay a few citizens an exorbitant amount of government money for doing nothing other than having the last name Windsor?

Mind you, America has its problems, but that doesn't mean Britain is a leftist utopia.

The Ghost of Revolutions

3rd April 2010, 06:29

[QUOTE=RadioRaheem84;1710121]Ironically the Northeast is very segregated and the South, especially Texas cities are surprisingly very integrated for the most part. Boston, in my opinion, is the most segregated city in America.

QUOTE]
I agree with the boston part but were I live in New Jersey it isn't segregated at all. I attended school with asians, blacks, hispanics, and portguese,jews, arbas, muslims, and many other groups. We all go to the same stores and restruants. It was very segragated but not anymore:)

syndicat

3rd April 2010, 07:24

if you read "American Apartheid" you'll learn that ghettoization of the black population was largly a product of the north...altho "racial zoning" (like the areas acts in South Africa) did exist in the south, but outlawed by Supreme Court in 1917. Ghettoization mostly happened during the period of the Great Migration...when 5 million African-Americans moved from the south to the cities of the north and west.

To take an example, prior to World War 2, the black population were only about 40 percent of south-central Los Angeles. it had always been a working class area but was racially mixed, white, Mexican, black. but with the huge influx of African Americans after WW2, racially restrictive convenants and systematic discrimination by landlords boxed the black population in. in southern towns and cities the white and black population often lived nearby.

however, class segregation has always been a feature of American cities. class sorting works through the real estate market...how much rent you can pay, or how much house you can afford to buy.

RadioRaheem84

3rd April 2010, 07:30

however, class segregation has always been a feature of American cities. class sorting works through the real estate market...how much rent you can pay, or how much house you can afford to buy.Yeah but even in Southern cities that class lines are a bit blurred sometimes. The super rich tend to seclude themselves in small enclaves in the city, while the rest of the city is divided among different sectors of the larger middle class. Houston for instance is becoming more class divided but it used to be difficult to really judge someone's net worth by looking at them. I guess the cheap cost of living allows for people to hide their income better.

When I went to Boston and New York Manhattan, I truly for the first time felt my class. I could tell there was a great big gap between me and the people there. Big wealth is really in your face there.

MarxSchmarx

3rd April 2010, 07:44

I can't comment on Madrid, as I have never been there, but in general areas that are referred to as 'black' are in fact pretty mixed. If we look at the UK for example, there is only one borough, which is majority non-white, Tower Hamlets, and all of the other areas which are talked about as 'black areas' are in fat majority white. The suburbs of Paris, which are described as immigrant areas are the same. I don't know which cities you are talking about.

Devrim

I don't have a good feel for the situation in Paris, I have actually never spent much time in France. Perhaps it is the case that the immigrant population in the suburbs is exaggerated, that is believable.

But since you bring up London, I was in Peckham for some time and although I've never looked up the statistic, I would be quite surprised if it was/is majority white.

Stranger Than Paradise

3rd April 2010, 09:15

Klaatu

3rd April 2010, 23:20

According to Wikipedia, only 0.6% of the population is Muslim!

Actually, most Muslims in the US are not from the Middle East.
More are from Southeast Asia, and there are more black Muslims
here than Arab Muslims. (I have a black friend who is Muslim)

Most Middle-Easterners here are Christian. (may have been persecuted
in their home countries)

Devrim

4th April 2010, 11:36

But since you bring up London, I was in Peckham for some time and although I've never looked up the statistic, I would be quite surprised if it was/is majority white.

The stats I cited refereed to boroughs. Of course within them there are concentrations of certain groups. Southwark is majority white (over 63%). Pekham isn't (about 32%)*. However, I would say that a third white means it is pretty mixed, and not a 'black area' like you see in the states.

Devrim

*Data from 2001: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/default.asp

Devrim

4th April 2010, 11:40

black magick hustla

4th April 2010, 21:08

Detroit is more than 90% black. Its tragic. White capitalists left and there is no capital flowing so you have an economy of unemployed, criminals, and liquor stores.

InuyashaKnight

5th April 2010, 03:12

I think the American government is to blame for dubbing down the American public.

MarxSchmarx

5th April 2010, 07:17

The stats I cited refereed to boroughs. Of course within them there are concentrations of certain groups. Southwark is majority white (over 63%). Pekham isn't (about 32%)*. However, I would say that a third white means it is pretty mixed, and not a 'black area' like you see in the states.

Devrim

*Data from 2001: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/default.asp

Fair enough, although given a few more generations, I suspect the trend in London will follow a "white flight" that was observed in many American metropolises, although I may be proven very wrong on this.

Indeed, I think the fact that a group as openly racist as the BNP has any serious national following is indicative of the fact that at least in America there is some social pressure on even the most reactionary segments to keep their opinions to themselves, and that such controls are far weaker in Britain - and my experience on the continet suggests they are weaker still there.

Devrim

5th April 2010, 08:08

One of the things that I find interesting about this thread is the way people are defending their own country, even if it only goes as far as saying it isn't as bad as the other.

Fair enough, although given a few more generations, I suspect the trend in London will follow a "white flight" that was observed in many American metropolises, although I may be proven very wrong on this.

Yes, I think you will.

Indeed, I think the fact that a group as openly racist as the BNP has any serious national following

It doesn't though. You may feel that from speaking to leftists, but in the last UK general election they polled 0.74% of the vote, hardly a serious national following. The BNP is a tiny party, which has become the bogey man of the left. Yes, it has some council seats. At the last local elections it took 10 seats (it has a total of 53 councillors), which compares to other well known political organisations such as 'Mebyon Kernow' who took 7. People not familiar with the UK political system should realise that councillors are often elected unopposed on votes not managing to reach treble figures.

is indicative of the fact that at least in America there is some social pressure on even the most reactionary segments to keep their opinions to themselves, and that such controls are far weaker in Britain - and my experience on the continet suggests they are weaker still there.

So people are polite in public, here I assume that we are not including groups like the Greensboro Baptist Church or the various KKKs, it doesn't mean that there is less racism and segregation in the US.

I am really genuinely surprised that people are suggesting even that the US is on the whole less racist than Europe.

Devrim

Klaatu

5th April 2010, 17:50

Detroit is more than 90% black. Its tragic. White capitalists left and there is no capital flowing so you have an economy of unemployed, criminals, and liquor stores.

As it reads, your post makes it sound as if blacks were responsible for state of the city.
[/quote]

edited it out
oops

I am sorry!!!!!
-maldoror

CartCollector

6th April 2010, 02:10

The problem is, morality and personal behavior is partly determined by society. Was Detroit a shining, gleaming utopia with abundance for all before the drug problem happened? I'm guessing it wasn't. As was discussed in another thread, (http://www.revleft.com/vb/communism-prohibition-and-t132260/index.html) if you improve people's living conditions, they will be less likely to dope themselves to oblivion.

MarxSchmarx

6th April 2010, 06:39

One of the things that I find interesting about this thread is the way people are defending their own country, even if it only goes as far as saying it isn't as bad as the other.

What is being suggested is that a clepto-patriotism is operating among people you happen to disagree with. No one is "defending their own country" for the hell of it. If they are they belong in OI. This is absurd and it should be obvious that your comment is not made in good faith.

Fair enough, although given a few more generations, I suspect the trend in London will follow a "white flight" that was observed in many American metropolises, although I may be proven very wrong on this.Yes, I think you will.
Unless there are drastic social changes in the coming years, I doubt it. Many of the same problematic attitudes are there in the UK as there are in the states: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article851104.ece

is indicative of the fact that at least in America there is some social pressure on even the most reactionary segments to keep their opinions to themselves, and that such controls are far weaker in Britain - and my experience on the continet suggests they are weaker still there.So people are polite in public, here I assume that we are not including groups like the Greensboro Baptist Church or the various KKKs, it doesn't mean that there is less racism and segregation in the US. Exactly, which is why you don't ever, ever have neo-Nazi fuckwits in Europe.

Obviously the attention whores will make a big deal about what they are about, and the press has and continues to basically ignore them. When their racist message is part of the national discourse, and the BNP's is (whether people vote for them or not), something more is going on than the usual fringe freaking out. Note also that the prevailing media narrative of the American groups you mention is one of isolated clowns and creeps, whereas the BNP media narrative is one of a growing party.

I am really genuinely surprised that people are suggesting even that the US is on the whole less racist than Europe.
It's not that "the US is on the whole less racist than Europe." What it is is that the US racism is different. American racism is institutionalized, often unconscious, and esconded behind several codes like "Law and Order" that appeal to non-racists as well. As much of Europe lacks the institutionalized racism against people of African descent, the fairest comparison is in individual attitudes about individuals of a different race. On on this score, on the whole, my experiences have been that Americans are less racist than Europeans.Obviously we have had very different experiences in both places.

It's also worth pointing out that where Europe has a historical legacy of racism (as against the gypsies, for example), the institutionalization of racism has been at least as brutal and the pervasive prejudices at least as hard to change as xenophobia in America.

Devrim

6th April 2010, 07:00

What is being suggested is that a clepto-patriotism is operating among people you happen to disagree with. No one is "defending their own country" for the hell of it. If they are they belong in OI. This is absurd and it should be obvious that your comment is not made in good faith.

Read back through the thread. There are American posters on this thread who seem to be doing that to me.

Unless there are drastic social changes or the left gets its act together in the coming years, I doubt it. Many of the same problematic attitudes are there in the UK as there are in the states: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...icle851104.ece (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article851104.ece)

You do realise that this is the UK equivalent of Glen Beck*, don't you? It is owned by the same person as Beck's channel is too. There are many reasons why this will not happen, not least the completely different development of cities in America and Europe since the industrial revolution.

Interestingly enough though, even right-wing commentators seem to agree with me:

We may have avoided America’s worst problems of racial segregation, but we can’t afford to be complacent.

Exactly, which is why you don't ever, ever have neo-Nazi fuckwits in Europe.

No you do, but they are a very tiny minority, just as those groups are in the US.

When their racist message is part of the national discourse, and the BNP's is (whether people vote for them or not), something more is going on than the usual fringe freaking out. Note also that the prevailing media narrative of the American groups you mention is one of isolated clowns and creeps, whereas the BNP media narrative is one of a growing party.

I would say because that narrative serves the media and the leftists political agenda though.

Obviously we have had very different experiences in both places.Yes, it seems so. I would imagine that my experience of Europe is much wider than yours, but my experience of the US is very limited, two very short visits to Boston. Having said that it shocked me. I think I heard the word 'nigger' more in those two visit than I heard in, say two years, in London. I was also really shocked that housing was virtually segregated in some parts of the city.

Also I do know many American socialists, and I think that all of them perceive that race is a much bigger 'political issue' in the US.

As much of Europe lacks the institutionalized racism against people of African descent, the fairest comparison is in individual attitudes about individuals of a different race.

So we ignore the main form of American racism precisely because it is not so in anyway comparable with the US. If we talk about people's attitudes it doesn't really fit with the statistics either. For example the UK and the US have virtually identical numebers of inter-racial marriages (2.2%). This seems quite similar until you consider that in the US non-whites make up a much larger proportion of the population.

It's also worth pointing out that where Europe has a historical legacy of racism (as against the gypsies, for example), the institutionalization of racism has been at least as brutal and the pervasive prejudices at least as hard to change as xenophobia in America.

Nobody brought up Gypsies before. On this question you are right. I don't think it applies as much to the UK or even other countries in Western Europe, but when I worked at a car factory in central Europe I was really shocked by the attitude that even people who considered themselves socialists had towards Gypsies.

Devrim

*Now I have learnt who Glenn Beck is I am going to name drop as the Americans on here seem fascinated by him

bricolage

6th April 2010, 10:20

Unless there are drastic social changes in the coming years, I doubt it. Many of the same problematic attitudes are there in the UK as there are in the states: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article851104.ece

London, Birmingham, Blackburn and Leicester all have wards where whites make up less than 20 per cent of the population. In Southall Broadway, West London, just 11.9 per cent of the population is white.

I might be wrong but isn't Southall Broadway just a big high street? If so that seems a pretty weak example to use.

I think there was a 'white flight' to an extent in London when the Docklands got developed and people moved further east, even towards Essex. However I'd still guess this doesn't compare to America.

CartCollector

7th April 2010, 04:14

*Now I have learnt who Glenn Beck is I am going to name drop as the Americans on here seem fascinated by him
Haven't you seen his shows? Look them up on YouTube if you haven't. How can you NOT be fascinated by him? He really is, as he called himself, a political rodeo clown.

That said, I think Glenn Beck is like Fred on YouTube. Both of them, in their areas (the US and YouTube, respectively) are at once immensely popular and immensely hated. Outside of those areas, no one really cares.

GatesofLenin

7th April 2010, 05:19

Hard for the rest of the world to have respect for the USA when Fox News is the #1 tv station according to Neilson Research. Fox News??? Oh man, no wonder the States are viewed as a bunch of right-wing hillbillies. What a shame really. One of the richest countries in the world and you can't even provide basic healthcare. An average of 50,000+ Americans die each year because they can't afford to go to the hospital to get medical care. WTH? Seriously! Taxpayers in the US are paying for Iraqis to have healthcare including dental. Bet you didn't know that fact. It's true.
Being a Canadian, I love our free healthcare system. Yes, it's got problems but it's there if you need it. A national Dental care would put Canada over-the-top.

anticap

7th April 2010, 06:06

I've visited Philly, LA, NY and San Fran and none of them lived up to their "liberal" "progressiveness" quite like inner city Houston, Austin or Dallas.

While that may have been true in your experience, the future doesn't bode so well (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html).

One of the things that I find interesting about this thread is the way people are defending their own country, even if it only goes as far as saying it isn't as bad as the other.

You won't find that from me. I consider it a matter of principle to shit on the U$ at every opportunity, which are many. It may have something to do with the fact that I find it utterly ridiculous to identify oneself with a non-democratic country (which includes all of them). To refer to a country as "us" or "we" or "our" is absolutely nonsensical unless you're a member of the ruling class. So, by all means, wipe your ass with the U$, but please leave me a spot to wipe mine. And that goes for any and all other countries, not just the U$. All "your" [sic] countries are shit as well, and I hereby symbolically wipe my ass with the lot of them. :)

7th April 2010, 07:21

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ3RrqBqk14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKEDLy8rAwU

How Australians view america.. :thumbup1:

I liked bush better than obama, bush was hilarious (even though unintentionally), fundamentally they are both the same politicians with the same policies, besides theres all this false bullshit in the media surrounding obama and how he is 'differen't' and implementing 'change' where as thats not true - he's just another scummy politician that's made it to the top.

anticap

7th April 2010, 08:43

lj3iNxZ8Dww

Honestly, I found that response by Caitlin Upton to be unintentionally brilliant. I began referring to "Americans" as "US-Americans" after that.

Sure, I'm aware that "American" is shorthand for "United States of American," and that it isn't meant to imply that US-Americans are claiming title to all of the Americas, but it can be taken that way (and often is, by outsiders who don't understand what "American" refers to), and is therefore annoying enough to warrant the "US-" prefix, IMO.

Besides, it pisses off the hyper-patriotic nationalistic types. :thumbup1:

Devrim

7th April 2010, 09:36

Haven't you seen his shows? Look them up on YouTube if you haven't. How can you NOT be fascinated by him? He really is, as he called himself, a political rodeo clown.

That said, I think Glenn Beck is like Fred on YouTube. Both of them, in their areas (the US and YouTube, respectively) are at once immensely popular and immensely hated. Outside of those areas, no one really cares.

YouTube is banned in this country. Yes, I could access it if I wanted to, but I am really not that interested. I saw Fox News once, and was quite shocked at how right wing it was. Why should I bother to access you tube to watch an US c-list celebrity right winger. We have enough of our own here, thanks.

I also have no idea at all who 'Fred' is. Just when I thought I was getting up on US culture (I didn't know who Glenn Beck was until last week), and you destroy my illusions in one line. :(

Devrim

Devrim

7th April 2010, 10:50

I think there was a 'white flight' to an extent in London when the Docklands got developed and people moved further east, even towards Essex. However I'd still guess this doesn't compare to America.

It is also a very different phenomenon. The idea of 'white flight' is defined by Wiki as such:

White flight is the sociologic and demographic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics) term denoting a trend wherein whites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people) flee urban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_area) communities as the minority population increases, and move to other places like commuter towns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_town).

This is not at all what happened in East London. There basically everybody got moved out whatever there colour to make way for developments for the middle and upper classes. They certainly weren't leaving a Canary Wharf run full of poor black or Asian people.

Wiki aslo says this on the subject:

UNITED STATES
White flight has occurred, and occurs, in almost every large U.S. city,[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight#cite_note-26) begun consequent to the post–World War II baby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-World_War_II_baby_boom) and economic booms. Explosive suburban population growth, and racially integrated city populations were made feasible by the building of highways and parkways bypassing non-white neighborhoods to reduce travel time between town and the country.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight#cite_note-crabgrass-27)

UK
Trevor Phillips (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Phillips), head of the UK Commission for Equalities and Human Rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_for_Equalities_and_Human_Rights), and Mike Poulsen, an Australian academic, have claimed that White Britons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_British) and non-white Britons are becoming more segregated. However, researchers Ceri Peach, Danny Dorling, and Ludi Simpson have argued that segregation in the UK is either stable or declining.[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight#cite_note-21) Demographic data indicate trends of simultaneous ethnic minority dispersal and segregation. In the 1980s and 1990s, ethnic minority populations increased in both white-majority suburbs and towns and the inner city (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_city) districts of first immigrant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom_since_1922) settlement.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight#cite_note-22) In areas such as Newham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Borough_of_Newham) and Brent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Borough_of_Brent), White Britons have become a minority*, though they remain the single largest ethnic group.[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight#cite_note-23) Unlike in the United States, all major UK cities have white-majority populaces.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight#cite_note-24) Researcher Ludi Simpson says that the growth of ethnic minorities in Britain is due mostly to natural population growth (births outnumber deaths) rather than immigration, and that both white and non-white Britons are equally likely to leave mixed-race inner-city areas. In his opinion, these trends indicate counter urbanization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_urbanization) rather than white flight.[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight#cite_note-25)

*While this is true, it is still true that every borough in the UK is majority white with the exception of Tower Hamlets according to the 2001 census. There have been suggestions that this has changed recently though. We will have to wait till next year to see. The term 'White Britons' was one of three white groups on the last UK census, along with 'White Irish' and 'Other White'. According to that census 3.07% of Londoners were Irish, and obviously have a tendency to be concentrated in certain areas, and 'Other Whites' 2.66% of the total population of the UK. This too is concentrated in London, where there are estimated to be 120,000 Poles.

Devrim

CartCollector

8th April 2010, 06:21

I also have no idea at all who 'Fred' is. Just when I thought I was getting up on US culture (I didn't know who Glenn Beck was until last week), and you destroy my illusions in one line. :(

Devrim

Well the thing is, most Americans don't either, unless they spend lots of time on YouTube. That's why I mentioned him- so Americans could get a sense of what I meant.

Anyways, Fred is a young adult who makes vlogs about a fictional character he plays that has a voice that sounds like it's from Alvin and the Chipmunks and acts like a six year old. As you can expect, most people find this to be annoying and unamusing. But the thing is, he was the most popular person on YouTube for a long time, and is still firmly in the top ten most popular video makers. The comparisons that can be made to Glenn Beck are obvious.