Spanish Civil War

[Jacobinist]

This thread was created with the intention of sparking the age old debate between State communists and libertarian communists (aka anarchists).

The civil war which broke out in the summer of 1936 in Spain mobilized an international column of volunteers, inspired the world, and sparked off what is known as world war II in Europe. Spain remained divided 1 week after the initial coup attempt on July 18, left-wing Republican Spain controlling major cities, and Franco the rest. And so the Spanish 2nd Republic fought for its life; a melting pot of ideologies, Republican Spain soon found it self in a two front war againt Franco and the fascists, and an internal civil war. The rest is open to interpretation.

But these are concrete facts:

1) The weak Republican government failed to act on a tipoff on the eve of Franco's coup. In a panic, the Republican govt. opened the armories to militant trade unionists (CNT/FAI) and thus arming 30,000 workers. It was these very industrial workers who stopped the professional armies initial coup in the major cities of Barcelona, Valencia, Bilbao, and Saragoza (Saragoza fell rapidly, however). In Madrid, the Army remained loyal to the Republican government.

2) The Republican government was a bitterly divided coailition of left wing political parties formed under "El Frente Popular" (Popular Front) and was embargoed by all countries except Mexico and the USSR. The embargo led to a dependence on the PCE (Communist Party of Spain) for weapons and ammunition from the USSR. Charged outrageous sums for the munitions by the Soviet government, Republican Spain was soon bankrupt.

3) The initial 'Milicias' (People's Militias) came to form the initial de facto Republican army. Composed of trade unionists and loyalist Republicans, it was organized under anarchist philosophy and organization. Later to be cited as the problem by the PCE (Communist Party of Spain), it would later be reorganized into "El Ejercito Popular," a typical heirarchial kapitalist army.

4) The anarchists remained in firm control in Catalonia until the Barcelona May Days of 1937, when Government troops entered Barcelona in an attempt to restore centralized power (and the COMINTERN politics).

5) PCE communists regard other anti-fascist political organizations as fascist or otherwise Trotskyites. This was the case despite the 'Trotskyites' having been the main opponents of the initial coup (and the only reason ALL OF SPAIN DIDNT FALL IN THE FIRST WEEK!) and having faced fascist guns at the front for months on end. They were rewarded for their bravery with mass aressts and 'paseos' (firing squads).

6) The cowardly Republican government abandoned Madrid fearing it would fall and moved the capital to Valencia.

7) The PCE rose in popularity because of its access to munitions, highly capable and better equpped International Brigades, and by appealling to the petty bourgeoisie as a 'safer' alternative to the politics of the anarchists. As the PCE came to control the Republican government, it enforced Stalinist policy which was by this time, anti-revolutionary. The suppression of political parties, the use of the SIM (Secret Interior Police) to create a police state, and the continuing losses at the front, only demoralized Republican Spain, leading to its defeat.

Comments?

[syndicat]

1) The weak Republican government failed to act on a tipoff on the eve of Franco's coup. In a panic, the Republican govt. opened the armories to militant trade unionists (CNT/FAI) and thus arming 30,000 workers. It was these very industrial workers who stopped the professional armies initial coup in the major cities of Barcelona, Valencia, Bilbao, and Saragoza (Saragoza fell rapidly, however). In Madrid, the Army remained loyal to the Republican government.


not quite. The coup was in fact an open secret for a long time before it began. This is why the worker organizations had been arming for months before. After all, various right wing leaders had called for the army to overthrow the government weeks before the coup. In Barcelona, the CNT regional federation already had been talking about forming a labor army for months and had elected a workers defense committee to coorindate its hundreds of neighborhood defense groups.

The arms you refer to -- the 30,000 rifles at the San Andreu depot -- were not "handed over" to the CNT, they were seized by the workers. When the CNT defense organization surrounded that base, a corporal in the Spanish army fragged his officer and persuaded the other soldiers to surrender to the CNT defense groups.



2) The Republican government was a bitterly divided coailition of left wing political parties formed under "El Frente Popular" (Popular Front) and was embargoed by all countries except Mexico and the USSR.

almost but not quite. There were a number of countries such as Poland who sold arms to the Republic, but every government who sold arms to Spain, except Mexico, and including the USSR, cheated them right and left. See "Arms for Spain" by Gerald Howson.



The embargo led to a dependence on the PCE (Communist Party of Spain) for weapons and ammunition from the USSR. Charged outrageous sums for the munitions by the Soviet government, Republican Spain was soon bankrupt.


Right. Also, by pressuring the Socialists to send 70 percent of the gold to USSR long before the arms were even ordered, this caused a 50% decline in the value of the Spanish currency on world markets, greatly undermining the ability of Spain to buy equipment and food and other needed supplies.



3) The initial 'Milicias' (People's Militias) came to form the initial de facto Republican army. Composed of trade unionists and loyalist Republicans, it was organized under anarchist philosophy and organization. Later to be cited as the problem by the PCE (Communist Party of Spain), it would later be reorganized into "El Ejercito Popular," a typical heirarchial kapitalist army.


This is not quite correct. The problem of the militias was lack of coordination due to the fact there was not a unified command. This came about, not due to the anarchists, but due to efforts by Marxist and other parties to create their own armies. Also, the PCE wormed its way into control of the officer corps of the army and police and the army "political commissars". To some extent, they used dependence on USSR for arms for this. Also, they pressured officers to join the PCE in order to avoid harassment and get plum assignments.

The CNT's solution to this, as proposed early Sept 1936, was a unified people's militia under a single command, controlled by a National Defense Council formed by the UGT and CNT union federations...essentially a workers government. This proposal was veto'd by the Socialist and Communist parties. Soviet ambassador warned this proposal would "destroy the international legitimacy" of the Spanish Republic...as if that had done them any good!



4) The anarchists remained in firm control in Catalonia until the Barcelona May Days of 1937, when Government troops entered Barcelona in an attempt to restore centralized power (and the COMINTERN politics).

Yeah, it was actually thousands of a new heavily armed paramilitary police.



5) PCE communists regard other anti-fascist political organizations as fascist or otherwise Trotskyites. This was the case despite the 'Trotskyites' having been the main opponents of the initial coup (and the only reason ALL OF SPAIN DIDNT FALL IN THE FIRST WEEK!) and having faced fascist guns at the front for months on end. They were rewarded for their bravery with mass aressts and 'paseos' (firing squads).


Well, they didn't call the anarchosyndicalists trotskyites but they did say that they planned the same "end" for them as the anarchosyndicalists in Russia.



6) The cowardly Republican government abandoned Madrid fearing it would fall and moved the capital to Valencia.

7) The PCE rose in popularity because of its access to munitions, highly capable and better equpped International Brigades, and by appealling to the petty bourgeoisie as a 'safer' alternative to the politics of the anarchists. As the PCE came to control the Republican government, it enforced Stalinist policy which was by this time, anti-revolutionary. The suppression of political parties, the use of the SIM (Secret Interior Police) to create a police state, and the continuing losses at the front, only demoralized Republican Spain, leading to its defeat.



yep.

[Kléber]

4) The anarchists remained in firm control in Catalonia until the Barcelona May Days of 1937, when Government troops entered Barcelona in an attempt to restore centralized power (and the COMINTERN politics).
Well, the CNT/FAI was never absolutely in control, and since it subordinated itself to the Popular Front, the revolution could not really spread from Catalonia and it was only a matter of time before the right wing Republicans cynically used the PCE against the anarchists. But yes, the destruction of workers' power, like the failure to liberate Morocco, was due to the Popular Front and the USSR's failed attempt to appease Britain and France.

[syndicat]

Well, the CNT/FAI was never absolutely in control, and since it subordinated itself to the Popular Front, the revolution could not really spread from Catalonia

until the CNT flipflopped in Nov 1936, it was the only large radical formation in Spain to NOT support the Popular Front. It certainly did not "subordinate itself" to the Popular Front before Nov 1936, and even after joining the government in Nov 1936, rank and file resisted Popular Front encroachments, but it's true that that was the watershed point, because it was all downhill from there.

But the revolution certainly did take place in areas other than Catalonia. Eastern Aragon CNT unions built a workers governing power (defense council and regional congress). Throughout Valencia, Murcia and the center of the country there were vast expropriations of farm land and businesses. In Asturias the CNT and UGT formed a joint Workers Council to govern that region.

[Jacobinist]

Thanks for the corrections. Almost had it down, almost!

But the coup being an open secret? I dont know Syndicat. I know CNT trade unionists discovered the plot months ahead of time, but I had never heard/read of it being an open plot, could you point me in the direction of some good literature?

Thx.

[Jacobinist]

Just as an addition, many PCE communists in Spain (they still exist) blame the CNT for officially accepting the defeat in Madrid as part of the Generalite. Apparently, and according to my souces (not very good Ill admit) the PCE wanted to continue the fight. What do you guys say about that?

[Kléber]

Just as an addition, many PCE communists in Spain (they still exist) blame the CNT for officially accepting the defeat in Madrid as part of the Generalite.
The Madrid organization of the CNT, including some prominent leaders like Cipriano Mera, did take part in the Casado-Besteiro junta (which styled itself the "Council of National Defense" and surrendered to Franco), but I don't know how broadly that action was supported in the rest of the country, since anarchism had been less influential in Madrid.


Apparently, and according to my souces (not very good Ill admit) the PCE wanted to continue the fight. What do you guys say about that?
Yes, even though Negrín fled the country after the coup, troops led by PCE member Luis Barceló wished to continue the war, and Communists were being rounded up by the army, so they tried to do a counter-coup and fought against the conciliationists through the streets of Madrid, but they were outnumbered, lost after a bitter fight and the officers were executed. Once the Republicans were done killing each other, the Nationalist troops took Madrid without a fight.

For the PCE to claim an honorable role throughout the war based solely on this episode would, of course, avoid the fact that they had done the same thing in 1937 - joined forces with right-wing Republicans to try and wipe out their rivals on the left.

[Comrade Gwydion]

About the 30,000 weapons, IIRC, the day of the right-wing coup, there had been three succesive presidents in republican Spain, as the first two didn't want to allow the militias to have these weapons they were both ousted by angry demonstrators.

And the maydays, or more precisely, the persecution of POUM and CNT-FAI members after the maydays, are a severe stain on the PCE and on the name 'communist'.

[syndicat]

Yes, even though Negrín fled the country after the coup, troops led by PCE member Luis Barceló wished to continue the war, and Communists were being rounded up by the army, so they tried to do a counter-coup and fought against the conciliationists through the streets of Madrid, but they were outnumbered, lost after a bitter fight and the officers were executed. Once the Republicans were done killing each other, the Nationalist troops took Madrid without a fight.

For the PCE to claim an honorable role throughout the war based solely on this episode would, of course, avoid the fact that they had done the same thing in 1937 - joined forces with right-wing Republicans to try and wipe out their rivals on the left.

The Republican army was totally demoralized, was running out of ammo, had little will to still fight. This came about largely because of the destructive way the CPE ran the army when they controlled it. This is discussed at length in "The Battle for Spain" by Antony Beevor. The CPE, to try to make propaganda coups, organized repeated mass infantry assaults. This led to massive loss of life, loss of equipment, and never really gained anything. The last of these battles, the Battle of the Ebro, basically destroyed the Republican army.

As Beevor points out, it would have been better to try a hardened defense and let the fascist army tear itself to pieces breaking thru. That plus guerrila war in the mountains. In 1937 Garcia Oliver proposed parachuting in a group of 200 anarchists with weapons into the mountains of Andalucia. at that time it was known there were 20,000 antifascists hiding out in the moutains, behind fascist lines. but the USSR veto'd this use of weapons as they didn't want to let the anarchists build an army.

the National Council for Defense probably over-estimated both the willingness of Franco to negotiate and the willingness or ability of the Republican army to still resist. But it was formed in reaction to an attempted PCE coup. At that time, the PCE nominally controlled a majority of the officers. But many of these officers abandoned the PCE at that moment and refused to support them.

the bit about PCE complaining of the CNT participating in the junta of defense is just party propaganda. there are those who say the PCE wanted the CNT and socialists to take over so the PCE could blame them for the defeat. but the die was already cast by that time.

[Kléber]

the National Council for Defense probably over-estimated both the willingness of Franco to negotiate and the willingness or ability of the Republican army to still resist. But it was formed in reaction to an attempted PCE coup.
There was no PCE coup, the notion that they were planning one was made up by the liberal traitors as an excuse to round up and shoot all the Communists of Madrid to show the junta's worthiness to Franco. The junta's success was assured by some opportunist Madrid anarchists (acting independently) who went along with it to get sectarian revenge for the events of 1937. In reality, the PCE was slavishly committed to the Popular Front and never would have betrayed the Republican government, whom it was under Comintern orders to support to the end. What officers like Barceló did, after initially pretending to support Casado, Besteiro, Miaja and co., was stage a failed counter-coup that would have restored the power of the central government in Valencia.



At that time, the PCE nominally controlled a majority of the officers. But many of these officers abandoned the PCE at that moment and refused to support them.
Yes, this is why the PCE's strategy of focusing on officers instead of the working class proved ultimately bankrupt.


the bit about PCE complaining of the CNT participating in the junta of defense is just party propaganda. there are those who say the PCE wanted the CNT and socialists to take over so the PCE could blame them for the defeat. but the die was already cast by that time.
I really doubt that, the PCE was committed to wiping out all its opponents on the left and taking over their military units. And it was a junta of surrender not defense.

[syndicat]

There was no PCE coup, the notion that they were planning one was made up by the liberal traitors as an excuse to round up and shoot all the Communists of Madrid to show the junta's worthiness to Franco.

any evidence for this claim? in reality they had no time to carry such a thing out, even if they wanted to, which they didn't. sounds like more Stalinist myth-making to me.

the fighting in Madrid was between military units, that is, between the PCE units, who were trying to attack the national defense junta, and Cipriano Mera's anarchist units, who were defending it. PCE lost and the party leaders then fled the country.

[Kléber]

any evidence for this claim? in reality they had no time to carry such a thing out, even if they wanted to, which they didn't. sounds like more Stalinist myth-making to me.
Well according to Wikipedia and Spartacus Schoolnet, who appear to be using The Spanish Civil War: Revolution and Counterrevolution by Burnett Bolloten, when Miaja joined the rebellion on March 6, 1939 he ordered the arrest of all Communists in the city.


the fighting in Madrid was between military units, that is, between the PCE units, who were trying to attack the national defense junta, and Cipriano Mera's anarchist units, who were defending it.
That's one way of looking at it. The PCE troops were defending the government in Valencia from a coup by liberal generals (and a right-wing socialist, Besteiro) who wanted to surrender to Franco. The anarchists under Mera weren't even part of the "national defense" junta, were they? Despite the fact that they did its dirty work.


PCE lost and the party leaders then fled the country.
According to Líster, the PCE leaders were packing their bags as soon as they heard about the rebellion in Madrid.

[Jacobinist]

Ok, can either one (or both) lay the chronological order of these final events, its all so confusing and contradicting. I got a few questions.

After La battalla del ebro had broken the Republicans army's back, this being november 38, and subsequent debacle and retreat of the army, what exactly happened politically?

To me this is the most complicated part of the war. Not that the war in Spain was ever simple to comprehend and grasp, its just that this late stage in the war, the effort wasn't so much focused on defeating the fascists as it was suppressing your brethren rivals. From my understanding of this, Catalonia fell because there was no longer a revolutionary spirit (the PCE had successfully suppressed it) to continue the fight. The Catalan people were both pissed at the fascists, the Republican Army (mostly PCE) and even mad at the anarchist leadership.

Valencia was essentially surrounded, and it here it gets confusing.

Can you clarify more entirely the situation?

[syndicat]

Well according to Wikipedia and Spartacus Schoolnet, who appear to be using The Spanish Civil War: Revolution and Counterrevolution by Burnett Bolloten, when Miaja joined the rebellion on March 6, 1939 he ordered the arrest of all Communists in the city.


okay, so you don't have evidence. you said they were rounded up and shot. now you say this general gave an order. who would have carried it out? was there even an attempt to do so?


The anarchists under Mera weren't even part of the "national defense" junta, were they?

Supposedly the anarchists were a part of the Council of Defense. Mera wouldn't have moved his troups to defend them otherwise.

Anyway, this is not a particularly interesting or relevant event. The war was lost by that point. Franco's taking over was merely a matter of days. The Council of Defense was trying to buy some time so people could go into hiding and get some guarantees from Franco. The liberal officers thought they could get guarantees from their former comrades in arms, but that was a naive hope. And buying time proved to be impossible since Franco pretty much ignored them.

The takeover by the Council of Defense was in response to moves by Negrin and the Communists. The Communists were afraid that Negrin was going to surrender and started a process of mobilizing the officers and military units in the party. This was the event that provoked the Council of Defense because people thought the Communists were going to take over.

If you find this period at the end interesting...I don't...it is described in detail in "The Battle of Spain" by Beevor.

[ContrarianLemming]

OK i'm just wondering if i've got my facts about the revoluton correct here...

Fascist uprising, Anarchists are first to fight them back while the weak spanish governments collects its wits, anarchists also begin revolution in catalonia and aragon

Weak government turns to the USSR for support, they are now under the boot of stalin and spains communist party

Now proxy soviet controlled government begins arming anarchists along with the whole popular front, the communist party is represented on the battlefield by the UGT, the CNT-FAI represent the anarchists, the POUM represent the anti soviet marxists

Communist government is bitterly opposed to revolution, they say "war first, revolution after" they begin propaganda campaign against the POUM, calling them fascists and trotskyists

War is going badly, in an effort to end the revolution, the communist government offers a choice to the CNT: join the government or we stop arming you, the CNT agrees, the revolution and collectivization is effectively stopped in it's tracks, CNT rank and file members feel betrayed

The spanish loyalists lose the war, the anarchists and communist movements in spain are crushed and franco takes power, assisting the Axis in the war that would begin soon after

So theres been two proper anarchist revolutions and they were bothcrushed by marxists, either directly or indirectly, cheers fellas!
Am i correct?

[syndicat]

Now proxy soviet controlled government begins arming anarchists along with the whole popular front,

Nope. The arms of the CNT's militia were seized from the army. The Communists didn't gain control of the government til Negrin was put in office after the May Days events in 1937. The Soviet agents tried to keep arms away from anarchists.



the communist party is represented on the battlefield by the UGT, the CNT-FAI represent the anarchists, the POUM represent the anti soviet marxists

Not quite. Initially there was a militia of about 100,000. The CNT built its militia, PSUC (Communists) had theirs, PSOE-UGT had theirs, POUM had theirs.

But the militia began to be replaced by a conventional hierarchical army by Jan 1937.


Communist government is bitterly opposed to revolution, they say "war first, revolution after" they begin propaganda campaign against the POUM, calling them fascists and trotskyists

Not exactly. The Communists were opposed to the workers revolution -- the seizure of factories and means of production, democratic worker militias. But they also aimed at a revolution. They aimed to gain control of the state and thence state power for their party, and then nationalize the economy. Their aim was a bureaucratic class dominated state socialist revolution, and their approach to it was to do so in stages.



War is going badly, in an effort to end the revolution, the communist government offers a choice to the CNT: join the government or we stop arming you, the CNT agrees, the revolution and collectivization is effectively stopped in it's tracks, CNT rank and file members feel betrayed


Wrong. The Communists didn't control the government when the CNT (not "the anarchists") joined it in Nov 1936. It was Largo Caballero who made that offer. He wanted the CNT in the government partly in order to control them and partly to counter the Communists.

CNT joining government was in Oct-Nov 1936. That's when the revolution started going downhill, through Communists gaining control of the army and police army positions, resources being kept from the worker-managed industries, state uses credit to control and eventually seize the collectivized industries, but only after Left Socialists and CNT out of government.

[ContrarianLemming]

who were the UGT exactly? if the PSUC were the commies


Their aim was a bureaucratic class dominated state socialist revolution, and their approach to it was to do so in stages.i'm sure the communists said they wanted to eventually get to pure communism evetually, but i take that as BS


the CNT (not "the anarchists")

I think they were a de facto anarchist group, if they were moderate then the FAI kept them on he anarchist track, correct?

Do you think it was a good thing that the CNT joined the government? do you think that the revolution should have waited? as far as i can see the anarchist FAI militas were effective

[Jacobinist]

"who were the UGT exactly? if the PSUC were the commies" - Aeon

One correction syndicat. The PSUC was the Catalan socialist party. The PSOE, or Spanish Workers Socialist Party, was the main block of the popular front, and thus the intial Republican government at the onset of the coup. The PCE (Spanish Communist Party, under the COMINTERN), was relatively small in these early stages, and was only a minor player at first.


"i'm sure the communists said they wanted to eventually get to pure communism evetually, but i take that as BS" - Aeon

You can take that to the bank. A political party taking order from the Stalin dominated Politburo, yup, take it to the bank.

"Do you think it was a good thing that the CNT joined the government? do you think that the revolution should have waited? as far as i can see the anarchist FAI militas were effective" - Aeon

On the first night of the fascist uprising, the CNT controlled the streets and the situation in large parts of Spain. They had the real power on the streets, but they assumed that political power meant nothing, and missed an oppurtunity.

And, no, the revolution cannot wait. When an entire people are eager to embark on the journey of socialism, voluntarily and willingly, it is no one's business to attempt to suppress it, much less a Georgian in Moscow. And yes, the Milicias were effective. They only needed arms and equipment. The fascist side throughout the war was superiorly armed, and I think that was the nail in the coffin of Republican Spain.

[syndicat]

A:
who were the UGT exactly? if the PSUC were the commies



General Union of Workers. At the beginning of the civil war they were controlled by the leftwing of the PSOE (Socialist Party), who were led by Largo Caballero. But the Communists also worked in the UGT and controlled the UGT in Catalonia. After the May Days in 1937, the Communists ousted the Left Socialists from control of the UGT (using their control of the police, to seize union halls and newspapers), and the UGT fell under Communist domination.

PSUC were the section of the Communist Party in Catalonia.


i'm sure the communists said they wanted to eventually get to pure communism evetually, but i take that as BS


Keeping in mind the distinction between socialism and communism in ML ideology, the CP's aim was "socialism", that is, a nationalized economy with the CP as the one-party ruler. But they intended to try to achieve this in stages. First stage was to rally the middle classes to support their proposal to rebuild the Republican State and a conventional and hierarchically disciplined army and police force. The later stage would be to use their control over the army and police to take state power.

J:
The PSUC was the Catalan socialist party. The PSOE, or Spanish Workers Socialist Party, was the main block of the popular front, and thus the intial Republican government at the onset of the coup.

PSUC -- Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia -- was formed from a merger of the Communist and Socialist parties in Catalonia. But the Stalinists immediately consolidated control over it. It affiliated to the Communist International. PSOE was not the initial Republican government. PSOE didn't take over the Republican government til early Sept. Initially the government was controlled by the middle class Republican parties.

On the first night of the fascist uprising, the CNT controlled the streets and the situation in large parts of Spain. They had the real power on the streets, but they assumed that political power meant nothing, and missed an oppurtunity.

This is not true. Their aim was that all economic and political power be in the hands of the proletariat. At a general plenary of delegates of the CNT of Catalonia day after the defeat of the army, whether to overgthrow the Generalitat in Catalonia was debated. The labor unions of Baix Llobregat (industrial region south edge of Barcelona, an industrial working class area) wanted to destroy the government and implement libertarian socialism. They debated it but the argument at the time mainly was that they were unsure what the situation was in the rest of Spain, and that they should delay that move til later.

After the CP began beating the drum for replacing the militias with a hierarchical army they would try to control, CNT changed its program at a national plenary Sept 3 1936 and adopted the position of the radicals in the CNT (Durruti and others), which proposed to the UGT that they overthrow the Republican state and set up a working class governing power, called a National Defense Council.

The problem is, Largo Caballero, the Left Socialists and Communists opposed this. So the UGT union veto'd it. That led to a new debate. Durruti wanted the CNT to take power on its own in the regions where they were strong enough to do so, where they were the majority. But that position apparently won out only in Aragon and not in Catalonia.

The national secretary of the CNT, Horacio Prieto, was a moderate (a treintista, opponents of the FAI) who supported the Popular Front from the beginning. He manipulated and maneuvered to get the CNT in the national government in November.

This was a disaster. They did this ostensibly to make sure they got resources for their militias and collectiivized industries, but instead the gold was sent to Russia and the anarchists were increasingly frozen out of arms and resources. They also lost their independence of direction, and became subordinate to their alliance with Largo Caballero. Rather than the CNT setting the terms of the debate, they were then merely reacting to what others were doing.

[kiwigunner]

The Spanish civil war was just the opening stages of the 2nd world war. Most nations were involved under the ¨volunteer" banner. With each side came the chance to test new weapons of war and a lot of what happened in the Poland campaign and during the fall of France, was battle tested in the Spanish civil war.

Also during the spanish civil war air power came into effect, with mass bombing of civilains for the first time. In the end both sides didnt win, as the 6 years of war which followed was nothing short of hell on earth.

[Ramon Mercador]

The Trotzkyites deserved what they got.

Long live Stalin

[syndicat]

the Spanish civil war was essentially a revolutionary class war. It is simplisitic to try to reduce it a war between states.

[Jacobinist]

Yes, it was a class war. And reducing it to a nation-state perspective is what bourgeois media did during that era so as to block the true underpinning of the resistance against Franco: revolutionary spirit.

People weren't fighting for kapitalist democracy, they were fighting for what they perceived was the revolution (until a Georgian in Moscos ordered it to be suppressed).

[RED DAVE]

Ain't any friendly neighborhood stalinist going to defend the CP role in Spain? I mean, what's this world coming to? When I was a kid, half the songs we sang were Spanish Civil War songs via the CP, which implicitly supported the CPs role.

RED DAVE

[Jacobinist]

"There's a valley in spain called Jarama...."

[RED DAVE]

http://www.international-brigades.org.uk/british_volunteers/jarama_valley.mp3

I actually learned this song when I was a member of a group of friends that included Danny Nelson, son of Steve Nelson, who became the national commander of the Lincoln Battalion.

RED DAVE

[Jacobinist]

Yeah, its a great song. Are you familiar with Spanish language anarchist and republikan songs?

Awesome era wasnt it?

[RED DAVE]

Awesome! When I was growing up in Brooklyn, our milkman was a member of the Lincoln Battalion. And when I worked for the NYC Depart of Welfare, one of my buddies was also a vet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfFo9uWcjAk

RED DAVE

[S. Zetor]

Why don't you people mention any sources for all the information you provide? It's interesting and all what you write, but you can bet I'm not going to take for granted what some userID writes about history on an internet forum; I much rather prefer adequately sourced research literature, which I'm sure you people have read, so why not inform others on some of those sources?

[Jacobinist]

Well if you had actually read the thread, instead of just assuming that no sources were listed, than you would have found that Syndicat actually provided 2 sources:

"Arms for Spain" by Gerald Howson
The Battle for Spain" by Antony Beevor

And Kleber provides:
The Spanish Civil War: Revolution and Counterrevolution by Burnett Bolloten

But of course Im just a troll; what do I know?

[x359594]

Why don't you people mention any sources for all the information you provide?...I much rather prefer adequately sourced research literature...

A few more titles in addition to those listed above:

The Anarchists in the Spanish Civil War by Robert Alexander in two volumes (1,468 pages with bibliography of Spanish, French and English sources) from 1997.

The Revolution and Civil War in Spain by Pierre Broue and Emile Temime, English edition 1972. In my view this is the best overall history (I haven't read Bolleten's recent The Spanish Civil War: Revolution and Counterrevolution published in 1991.)

[syndicat]

It depends on what you want to know about. If you're interested in the military aspects, Beevor provides the best history. If you're interested in the question of military aid to both sides, Howson's history is the most well researched and documented. As far as how extensive worker expropriation was, it's best to combine Bolloten with Leval's "Collectives in the Spanish Revolution" and "Blood of Spain" by Ron Fraser.

I generally prefer things written by Spanish people, particularly participants, and oral histories. The advantage of "Blood of Spain" is that Fraser interviewed hundreds of people of all different ideologies.

The best history of the independent radical women's movement, Mujeres Libres, is "Free Women of Spain" by Martha Ackelsberg, also based in part on interviews.

In regard to overall political views, there is no neutral or objective history. The two overall histories by Spanish anarchist participants are "Anarchists in the Spanish Revolution" by Jose Peirats and Los anarquistas y el poder by Cesar Lorenzo (not translated). To understand the more radical faction of the CNT (the people called "anarcho-Bolsheviks" by Peirats and Lorenzo) you need to read these documents:

Abel Paz's biography of Durruti
Juan Garcia Oliver's memoir, El eco de los pasos
Towards a Fresh Revolution by Jaime Balius (a Friends of Durruti pamphlet)

An insider's look at the role of the CP is "Jumping the Line" by Bill Herrick, a member of the American CP in the Lincoln Battalian

For documents about the role and perspectives of the Communist International, there is "Spain Betrayed," a series of ducments translated from the Soviet archives

[Jacobinist]

Wow thanks a bundle Syndicat.

Great books and others I had never even heard of!

Thanks. :thumbup1:

[Jacobinist]

A question Synd, What do you think about the American Brigadier Milton Wolff? I've read his book and he seems highly critical of the Anarchists in the war, even accussing them of not willing to fight.

What about Orwell's Homage To Catalonia? This is one my favorite reads, what do you think of it? This is almost the exact oppisite of Wolff's version. Given it was in the revolutionary area of Spain while Wolff's was located within the regions heavily influenced by the PCE.

Thanks again.

[syndicat]

you've got to expect Wolff to defend the CP party line. That is what the Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Battalian have done ever since the revolution. The American CP systematically lied to the American public about the events in Spain. they claimed it wasn't a proletarian revolution or that it wasn't about socialism versus capitalism, but just defense of a liberal democratic regime.

The problem with Orwell's book is that it overemphasizes the importance of the POUM. this is to be expected since he is more familiar with the POUM as he was a member of the POUM militia. but the POUM only had significant following in Catalonia (mainly in 3 provincial cities of Catalonia, Tarragona, Lleida, and Gerona). On the other hand, I agree with his general view of the revolution and war.

[Astinilats]

Ain't any friendly neighborhood stalinist going to defend the CP role in Spain? I mean, what's this world coming to? When I was a kid, half the songs we sang were Spanish Civil War songs via the CP, which implicitly supported the CPs role.

RED DAVE

There is a good book on the subject, wrote by someone who was actually there and then became a historian of the war. It is Arthur Landis' Spain! The Unfinished Revolution. You can find a pdf copy of the book on this forum.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/spain-unfinished-revolution-t125390/index.html?p=1635265

[Jacobinist]

There is a good book on the subject, wrote by someone who was actually there and then became a historian of the war. It is Arthur Landis' Spain! The Unfinished Revolution. You can find a pdf copy of the book on this forum.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/spain-unfinished-revolution-t125390/index.html?p=1635265


Hey thats a good point. Im not too familiar, but is there a thread dedicated to online book sources?

[S. Zetor]

Well if you had actually read the thread, instead of just assuming that no sources were listed, than you would have found that Syndicat actually provided 2 sources:

"Arms for Spain" by Gerald Howson
The Battle for Spain" by Antony Beevor

And Kleber provides:
The Spanish Civil War: Revolution and Counterrevolution by Burnett Bolloten

I did read the thread and did notice the sources you mention, but the vast majority of the claims in the posts were not referenced in any way; for example your OP just states things as facts as if I should take them at face value. Why not tell where you read them, if the source is worthy (i.e. not an anonymous pamphlet published on the internet)?

Not that I would demand some kind of research style reference after every single claim, but in general with discussions such as this many people just tend to write whatever fits their personal politics, and you can't really rely on it unless you already know the writer is trustworthy and knows what he/she is talking about, or unless you yourself already have a good idea of what it's about.

Thanks for people who provided additional sources, will look into them!

[Jacobinist]

I did read the thread and did notice the sources you mention, but the vast majority of the claims in the posts were not referenced in any way; for example your OP just states things as facts as if I should take them at face value.

Well according to your OP;

"Why don't you people mention any sources for all the information you provide?...." -Zetor

the impression I got was a bit different.