Our rhetoric - and other such nonsense

[ContrarianLemming]

Is anyone else annoyed by the examples and rhetoric far leftists give? factory workers? steel mills? really? does anyone else think far left rhetoric is stuck in the 19th century? hell we talk like we are. Just look at the average examples given, we always use the same one: a factory worker, we LOVE factory workers don't we! we LOVE miners, we LOVE steel mill workers, in other works, we love jobs that boomed in the 19th century, jobs Mr Marx and Bakunin gabbed about. It's so anachronistic, i can't stand marxist propaganda because it's always heavy in all these images: steel mill workers taking over the mill or something, i for one have never seen a steel mill :(
And whats this bussiness about "workers councils" is that more leftist rhetoric or are we suggesting that those who can't work shouldn't have any say? When we say worker do we really mean "person"? Or how about "Worker's militia"? are you kidding me? Are we so steeped in this ancient rhetoric? It's like how some fundies use the word "thou" because that's how the bible is written.
Don't even get me started on "Proleteriat" I can't believe i actually use this word, or "Bourgeoisie" Why are we all speaking French? Don't tell me that it's just the proper term, it ain't, i think an objectivist fellow once said i was using "vile leftist rhetoric"
Or what of "peasants" i have, cross my hearth, seen folks here discussing whther or not "peasants" are a potential for revolutionary force, are you kidding me? peasants? Do we still talk about the Petit Bourgeoisie? Or are we worried yet that our rediculous lagnuage isn't really going to attract anyone to our ideology.

Apologies in advance, but we revlefts are steeped in some pretty annoying anachronistic bullsh!t, reciting the commie manifesto as if it's the word of God
I actually get so annoyed about this often, in fact i just said "the word of God" so i know i'm going to have to mention that i'm an atheist before i get fraking bum rushed for trolling simply because i used a religious term.

I really think an update on our middle age wording would be worth it, every little helps. i for one am going to start using the word "capitalist" not "bourgeoisie"

Aeon, Anarcho-Syndicalist (another french word with no meaning to common folk, how about "Anarcho-Unionism"? )

[Jimmie Higgins]

I suppose it's the context. This is a radical leftist website and so I don't see anything wrong with jargon most people here use when it is more exact. Maybe ease up in the learning section or when talking to someone who isn't familiar with your particular jargon or whatever.

If you are handing out fliers at a rally or at work that's full of jargon, then yes, that's silly. It's a good point to raise though, particularly now we should be orienting ourselves outward and trying to make our ideas as accessible (while still specific) as possible.

Edit: also I think some of supposed marginalization of industrial workers in modern society is exaggerated by academics and the media. Where I live things like the docks and truckers and shipping and manufacturing are still the most important parts of the economy. There are more service and public workers but the heart of the economy is still industrial - not that we should ignore or place less importance on Wal-mart or Starbucks or office workers.

[The Douche]

A lot of people don't know what "anarcho" means either.

And the fact that you think the left needs to stop talking about workers and peasants shows a generally first-world chauvenist attitude.

No there aren't really peasants or large numbers of indutrial workers in the first world anymore, but for the majority of the human population those words still do apply.

[Leo]

Is anyone else annoyed by the examples and rhetoric far leftists give? factory workers? steel mills? really? does anyone else think far left rhetoric is stuck in the 19th century? hell we talk like we are. Just look at the average examples given, we always use the same one: a factory worker, we LOVE factory workers don't we! we LOVE miners, we LOVE steel mill workers, in other works, we love jobs that boomed in the 19th century, jobs Mr Marx and Bakunin gabbed about. It's so anachronistic, i can't stand marxist propaganda because it's always heavy in all these images: steel mill workers taking over the mill or something, i for one have never seen a steel mill

And whats this bussiness about "workers councils" is that more leftist rhetoric or are we suggesting that those who can't work shouldn't have any say? When we say worker do we really mean "person"? Or how about "Worker's militia"? are you kidding me? Are we so steeped in this ancient rhetoric? It's like how some fundies use the word "thou" because that's how the bible is written.
Don't even get me started on "Proleteriat" I can't believe i actually use this word, or "Bourgeoisie" Why are we all speaking French? Don't tell me that it's just the proper term, it ain't, i think an objectivist fellow once said i was using "vile leftist rhetoric"
Or what of "peasants" i have, cross my hearth, seen folks here discussing whther or not "peasants" are a potential for revolutionary force, are you kidding me? peasants? Do we still talk about the Petit Bourgeoisie? Or are we worried yet that our rediculous lagnuage isn't really going to attract anyone to our ideology.

Apologies in advance, but we revlefts are steeped in some pretty annoying anachronistic bullsh!t, reciting the commie manifesto as if it's the word of God
I actually get so annoyed about this often, in fact i just said "the word of God" so i know i'm going to have to mention that i'm an atheist before i get fraking bum rushed for trolling simply because i used a religious term.

I really think an update on our middle age wording would be worth it, every little helps. i for one am going to start using the word "capitalist" not "bourgeoisie"

Aeon, Anarcho-Syndicalist (another french word with no meaning to common folk, how about "Anarcho-Unionism"? )

Perhaps you should suggest that your organization should rename itself "Employees Charity Foundation" or something similar instead of "Workers Solidarity Movement" then.

Personally, I'd be more worried about whether the WSM talks to people about their politics before they recruit them.

[Lynx]

We should be plainspoken. We should be able to relate to the real life concerns of workers. Someone who has a family to feed has different concerns than a worker without dependents, or an older worker, or someone just beginning their working lives.

[ComradeOm]

And whats this bussiness about "workers councils" is that more leftist rhetoric or are we suggesting that those who can't work shouldn't have any say?You suggesting that the idea of workers (yes, workers) organising and supervising their own workplace and society is simply "leftist rhetoric"? I suppose its time to rewrite the history books again...


When we say worker do we really mean "person"?No we don't. When we say worker we mean "worker". I'm going to assume that you know what one of those is without having to consult a dictionary

And yeah, we distinguish between workers, capitalists, petit-bourgeoisie (shock horror, a French word!), peasants, etc, etc, because of a little thing called class analysis. I understand its not for everyone but you should at least attempt to understand it before deciding to educate the rest of us


Or how about "Worker's militia"? are you kidding me? Are we so steeped in this ancient rhetoric? It's like how some fundies use the word "thou" because that's how the bible is writtenWhat part of that phrase do you not understand? Do you honestly not know what a "militia" is? Or is the concept of armed workers organising their own defence so alien to you? Or do you really believe that all workers are as ignorant as yourself?


Don't even get me started on "Proleteriat" I can't believe i actually use this word, or "Bourgeoisie" Why are we all speaking French?Je ne sais pas. But then I have no problem with ordering for an a la carte menu before walking down the boulevard (stopping in to buy some lingerie), before turning down the cul-de-sac to indulge in some minor vandalism as I wait for my limousine. Inside I'll indulge in a little ménage à trois before staging a coup d'état against the state. Of course I'll probably end up with a bayonet in the gut as a souvenir. C'est la vie


Don't tell me that it's just the proper term, it ain't, i think an objectivist fellow once said i was using "vile leftist rhetoric"Good company you're keeping. You're aware that he probably would have said the same if you had waffled on about smashing the state (good strong English words) or redistributing the wealth, right?


Or what of "peasants" i have, cross my hearth, seen folks here discussing whther or not "peasants" are a potential for revolutionary force, are you kidding me? peasants?Why how foolish of us to have even considered the countless millions of peasants that are stupid enough to live outside of the 19th C. Don't they know that owning two cars and living in the suburbs is the way to go? Perhaps you should head to some S American or Asian nation and tell all those peasants that they're just a joke


Or are we worried yet that our rediculous lagnuage isn't really going to attract anyone to our ideology.I'm actually more concerned about the morons that the movement does attract


We should be able to relate to the real life concerns of workersThe assumption being that political theory (whether Marxist, anarchist, or anything in between) is not relevant to peoples' lives. Nothing could be further from the truth

[ZombieGrits]

Mad props to Comrade Om. I haven't seen a good beatdown like that in a looooong time :)

But really now, Aeon just has a bit to learn, we shouldn't hold it against him if he doesn't know what he's talking about

[Invincible Summer]

Is anyone else annoyed by the examples and rhetoric far leftists give? factory workers? steel mills? really? does anyone else think far left rhetoric is stuck in the 19th century? hell we talk like we are. Just look at the average examples given, we always use the same one: a factory worker, we LOVE factory workers don't we! we LOVE miners, we LOVE steel mill workers, in other works, we love jobs that boomed in the 19th century, jobs Mr Marx and Bakunin gabbed about. It's so anachronistic, i can't stand marxist propaganda because it's always heavy in all these images: steel mill workers taking over the mill or something, i for one have never seen a steel mill :(
And whats this bussiness about "workers councils" is that more leftist rhetoric or are we suggesting that those who can't work shouldn't have any say? When we say worker do we really mean "person"? Or how about "Worker's militia"? are you kidding me? Are we so steeped in this ancient rhetoric? It's like how some fundies use the word "thou" because that's how the bible is written.
Don't even get me started on "Proleteriat" I can't believe i actually use this word, or "Bourgeoisie" Why are we all speaking French? Don't tell me that it's just the proper term, it ain't, i think an objectivist fellow once said i was using "vile leftist rhetoric"
Or what of "peasants" i have, cross my hearth, seen folks here discussing whther or not "peasants" are a potential for revolutionary force, are you kidding me? peasants? Do we still talk about the Petit Bourgeoisie? Or are we worried yet that our rediculous lagnuage isn't really going to attract anyone to our ideology.

Apologies in advance, but we revlefts are steeped in some pretty annoying anachronistic bullsh!t, reciting the commie manifesto as if it's the word of God
I actually get so annoyed about this often, in fact i just said "the word of God" so i know i'm going to have to mention that i'm an atheist before i get fraking bum rushed for trolling simply because i used a religious term.

I really think an update on our middle age wording would be worth it, every little helps. i for one am going to start using the word "capitalist" not "bourgeoisie"

Aeon, Anarcho-Syndicalist (another french word with no meaning to common folk, how about "Anarcho-Unionism"? )

TBH I haven't heard anyone talk about steel mills or factories to the extent that you're suggesting.

What's more, it's not like Marxists kill people who don't use terms like "proletariat" or "bourgeoisie." You can say "working class" or "ruling class." There are no hard, fast rules.

There are still peasants in other parts of the world, but I suppose they're too anachronistic for you to care about.


What's your problem? Jeez.

[CartCollector]

If it's any help to you, prole.info created a pamphlet called "Abolish Restaurants," which is an anarcho-communist take on restaurant work.
http://www.prole.info/ar/index.html
No mention of factory work or obscure French words. You'll love it. Actually prole.info explicitly shares your concern of making sure that people understand that service industry and office workers are part of the proletariat. http://www.prole.info/texts/critiqueofworkerism.html

[anticap]

No there aren't really peasants or large numbers of indutrial workers in the first world anymore, but for the majority of the human population those words still do apply.

This.

Just because the manufacturing industry is shuffled off to countries with lower wages and looser regulations, while those jobs are replaced at home by the service industry, doesn't mean those issues are no longer valid. It just means that it's time to actually start thinking globally.

As long as you see stuff on shelves, it's being produced somewhere, even if the only jobs you see involve talking on the phone.

I do feel awkward using the lingo in many situations, however, so I'll use more universal terms. I've got no nostalgic attachment to terminology. Whatever catches a person's ear and makes them nod is the right language to use.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Factory jobs are still in existence so that is fair game. Same thing with peasants and mills. These things are still in existence so what are we supposed to call them? Are we not trying to recruit from factories and mills? Also we shouldn't use French anymore for what reasons? I admit when talking to people who have no idea what those words mean they should not be used.

What I really can't stand though is using the word "comrade". Why do so many on the left insist on using this word?

[ZombieGrits]

What I really can't stand though is using the word "comrade". Why do so many on the left insist on using this word?

cuz its a cool word! and because its a fairly dignified way of addressing someone that you don't really know, without the connotation of them being superior to you that "sir" carries

[manic expression]

What I really can't stand though is using the word "comrade". Why do so many on the left insist on using this word?
Because 50 Cent uses it...therefore it's cool. But if you don't like using "comrade", addressing a fellow revolutionary as "sister" or "brother" is a good option IMO.

And ComradeOm, I mean...damn...you're gonna be in the poor OP's nightmares! In French! :p

[Communist]

Words beat to death around here I can't stand.

whilst I mean, please. That sounds horribly pompous and ruling class. I understand it's popular in the UK, but I've never ever heard Deep Purple or the Sex Pistols (or even Black Sabbath) use it, so I know it can be avoided. Try while once in a whilst, k?

slander Oh man is there any other word for this? How about lie, libel, talk smack?

And whinny. What is that constant misspelling? The word is whiny, get it straight

Oh I see that actually is a word. My bad.

Carry on comrades, peasants and proletarians!

:lol:

[Common_Means]

It appears to me that the OP views the world only in terms of the global North. Ironic, seeing as how such views make his/her opinions obsolete.

[black magick hustla]

the op does address an important issue. i do think referring to the working classes, class division, etc is fundamental but no need to sound like you have a bad case of aspergers. i think i am kindof aspie and i am big on big words but tbh most people could are less.

[Robocommie]

Je ne sais pas. But then I have no problem with ordering for an a la carte menu before walking down the boulevard (stopping in to buy some lingerie), before turning down the cul-de-sac to indulge in some minor vandalism as I wait for my limousine. Inside I'll indulge in a little ménage à trois before staging a coup d'état against the state. Of course I'll probably end up with a bayonet in the gut as a souvenir. C'est la vie

Wow, that sounds like the perfect day.

[Belisarius]

Because 50 Cent uses it...therefore it's cool. But if you don't like using "comrade", addressing a fellow revolutionary as "sister" or "brother" is a good option IMO.

And ComradeOm, I mean...damn...you're gonna be in the poor OP's nightmares! In French! :p
i must admit i don't like words like comrade or proletariat either, since we communists are the only ones who use it. just saying "hello" suffices, you don't need the "hello comrade". proletariat is just archaic, but luckily i see most people have started using the word working class.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Is anyone else annoyed by the examples and rhetoric far leftists give? factory workers? steel mills? really? does anyone else think far left rhetoric is stuck in the 19th century? hell we talk like we are. Just look at the average examples given, we always use the same one: a factory worker, we LOVE factory workers don't we! we LOVE miners, we LOVE steel mill workers, in other works, we love jobs that boomed in the 19th century, jobs Mr Marx and Bakunin gabbed about. It's so anachronistic, i can't stand marxist propaganda because it's always heavy in all these images: steel mill workers taking over the mill or something, i for one have never seen a steel mill :(
And whats this bussiness about "workers councils" is that more leftist rhetoric or are we suggesting that those who can't work shouldn't have any say? When we say worker do we really mean "person"? Or how about "Worker's militia"? are you kidding me? Are we so steeped in this ancient rhetoric? It's like how some fundies use the word "thou" because that's how the bible is written.
Don't even get me started on "Proleteriat" I can't believe i actually use this word, or "Bourgeoisie" Why are we all speaking French? Don't tell me that it's just the proper term, it ain't, i think an objectivist fellow once said i was using "vile leftist rhetoric"
Or what of "peasants" i have, cross my hearth, seen folks here discussing whther or not "peasants" are a potential for revolutionary force, are you kidding me? peasants? Do we still talk about the Petit Bourgeoisie? Or are we worried yet that our rediculous lagnuage isn't really going to attract anyone to our ideology.

Apologies in advance, but we revlefts are steeped in some pretty annoying anachronistic bullsh!t, reciting the commie manifesto as if it's the word of God
I actually get so annoyed about this often, in fact i just said "the word of God" so i know i'm going to have to mention that i'm an atheist before i get fraking bum rushed for trolling simply because i used a religious term.

I really think an update on our middle age wording would be worth it, every little helps. i for one am going to start using the word "capitalist" not "bourgeoisie"

Aeon, Anarcho-Syndicalist (another french word with no meaning to common folk, how about "Anarcho-Unionism"? )

You come across as very anti-French.

Like, at any moment you could call someone a "frog" or "cheese eating surrender monkey".

What are you going to call casserole in this new French purged world of yours?

[which doctor]

I admit to using the marxist jargon, but usually only with other people who are familiar with it. I think a word like working-class is synonymous with proletariat, but a word like bourgeoisie has a slightly different definition than ruling-class. You start having problems like these when you dumb down the message and it begins to lose its value. That people aren't familiar with these terms and ideas is the result of marxist left falling out of vogue for the past 75 years or so. What that we should remind ourselves is that this vocabulary was once in peoples vocabulary, and can be once again. And to paraphrase Lenin in What is to be done, you do not bring the intellectual to the level of the worker, but the worker to the level of the intellectual.


What I really can't stand though is using the word "comrade". Why do so many on the left insist on using this word?
Because we understand that we belong on a contiuum of histor that has used the word. But more importantly, it's also one of the more fun words to use.

[The Idler]

Yes there are dinosaurs on the left who use rhetoric.

[ComradeOm]

What I really can't stand though is using the word "comrade". Why do so many on the left insist on using this word?It has the advantage of being both gender and class neutral (as opposed to Mr, Mrs, Madam, etc) while being more fraternal than 'citizen'. Hence its adoption by the socialist movement during the late 19th C. Pretty important before the use of such honorifics declined sharply in the late 20th C

(For example, fifty years ago only my closest friends would have been on first name terms with me. Good acquaintances might use my surname but everyone else would know me as Mr Om. Or Comrade Om in certain circles)


But really now, Aeon just has a bit to learn, we shouldn't hold it against him if he doesn't know what he's talking aboutPeople can be wrong (God knows I often am) but there's no excuse for being a gobshite. It goes without saying that I never would have responded in such a way to a thread in the Learning forum

[mikelepore]

The statement that it's anachronistic to talk about factories, mines and mills is simply wrong. All the objects around us came from these sources. Where do you think computers and DVDs and cell phones and clothes and cars and furniture came from?

[CartCollector]

Where do you think computers and DVDs and cell phones and clothes and cars and furniture came from? They come from a magical clean automated factory that doesn't require human labor and gives off ice cream as a by-product. :p

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I understand what the OP means in a way. The way buzzwords and abstract ideas are used. To state workers councils as an example is wrong however. Workers councils are what they are.