"You're white"

[the last donut of the night]

I'm sure many comrades, especially those in the USA, have seen or been part of a situation in which they are chastised (or see others being chastised) for acting in a "black" manner and being called out for not being Black, but white. For example, I for one would be freestyling a bit or just rapping a song I had heard, but I would be called out for not being Black, but being Latino (however, my skin can be quite light for what most people consider to be Latino). Or if one uses "black" slang (ill, mad, dope, etc) they are again called out for it. Now, I see that this shows a hidden sphere of racism in American society because it implies that Blacks have one way of living and whites have another. It implies that the behaviors of the two should be different and that they are somehow irreconcilable. Also, due to the already charged racism in America, these accusations are almost always said in a sneering, punishing tone. It's almost as if whites cannot act the way Blacks supposedly do because it's dirty, or shameful, or strange. Your thoughts on this matter?

However, I would like to point out that in this post, I am not defending white teenagers speaking in ebonics or acting "Black" as a way to let off their racism. I would like to see this as an observation of the use of "racial" culture among youth in the USA.

[¿Que?]

Believe it or not, blacks, whites and even Latinos tend to behave differently. Each has its own cultures and subcultures which are not homogeneous, and yet are collectively distinct from one another.

The question is not are there racial differences (in behavior, culture etc) but that these differences are not essential. What people mean when they say racial and gender differences are not essential, means that these differences do not constitute essential properties of gender and race. Thus, if you act white or black, you're still Latino.

You also have to remember that race categories are socially constructed. What does this mean? It does not mean that they don't exist. It basically means that they are created within a social context and usually imposed externally (that is, you don't have a choice as to what race you belong to).

So when you say

it implies that Blacks have one way of living and whites have another.
I think they do. But that simply by behaving as blacks do does not make you black, and if you are black, behaving as most whites do, will not make you not black. This is what I mean when I say differences between races are not essential.

[Crusade]

There's no other way around it, it's just wrong. I think this stems from "white culture" being called pretty much anything responsible. So this makes any minority cling to whichever identity they have. Some Black Americans think whites will "steal" hip hop culture from blacks like Rock music. Some are just racist and think every race needs to all have certain characteristics. Now on the white side of things(rofl) many whites see "black" culture is below whites and use "hip hop" as a clever decoy to attack black people. If whites are involved in hip hop too, that makes things very difficult. Then again in some cases, whites will only listen to white hip hop. I'm a huge fan of Eminem, but almost every(EDIT I'll say at least 40% of eminem fans) Eminem fan ONLY likes him and no one else. Then again there are black hip hop fans who only listen to black rappers, but that's admittedly much easier to do than just listening to one rapper all the time.

All explanations aside, it's wrong in every case and there's no justification for it.

EDIT

Also, there's nothing wrong with whites speaking in ebonics. I love it when people think calling someone a "wigger" is ok. I mean it literally means white nigger. What do you think I think of you for saying that? It's basically this generation's "nigger lover".

[Aeval]

Also, there's nothing wrong with whites speaking in ebonics. I love it when people think calling someone a "wigger" is ok. I mean it literally means white nigger. What do you think I think of you for saying that? It's basically this generation's "nigger lover".

I don't think that's quite right, people aren't taking the piss because they like what is considered to be black culture, they're doing so because these people are adopting it to look cool, and often getting it wrong. Like, there's a difference between someone who happens to like rap music and talk in the same way as their friends and someone who literally over-night starts using totally different slang and stuff just because they think it makes them look well cool.

Regarding the OP: People mocking you for rapping is just them being idiots, and I agree that you shouldn't say people can/can't do things based on the colour of their skin but I think this "you're not black" thing is really about class (and I guess sometimes age). Whenever I've heard people chastising others for "trying to be black" it really has been because that person is putting it on. I mean, here in Berlin for example you'll hear teenagers of all ethnicities chatting in weird slang and just dropping in the odd turkish word or whatever, and if one of them happens to not be of turkish descent what so ever then noone will bat an eyelid 'cause that's just actually how certain kids here speak.

On the other hand, when my (non German/Turkish) friends here start trying to talk and act like the German-Turkish youths then I'll happily mock them for it, 'cause they're a bunch of middle class, british people who grew up in totally different world, and who now don't even know anyone who genuinely talks like that, trying to look cool by adopting German, working-class youth slang, and they just sound ridiculous

[Sean]

Just say it. Wigger.

I personally find it uncomfortable when white people "act black". I dont think it mixes well at all. It makes me think for what Sartre said at the beginning of Fanon's kick ass book. We're full of apologises and apes of other culture but we dont do anything about it, so we really need to stick it up our collective middle class asses.

[counterblast]

Now, I see that this shows a hidden sphere of racism in American society because it implies that Blacks have one way of living and whites have another.

This isn't racism, this is reality.

This isn't to say all Black folks inherently live this way, or white folks inherently live another, but to overlook the disparities that presently exist between whiteness and Blackness, is presenting yourself with a very skewed (if not completely false) reality.

I would argue that the adaptation of Black culture and virtually every other non-white culture into whiteness is the real hidden sphere of racism at work in situations like this. The designation of "colored" (or, more recently, "ethnic") as "distinct" and "whiteness" as "normative" and "all-encompassing" is extremely problematic, because such a dichotomy reduces the significance of "colored" to contextual while upholding whiteness as a ubiquitous standard by which all else is measured.

[¿Que?]

The designation of "colored" (or, more recently, "ethnic") as "distinct" and "whiteness" as "normative" and "all-encompassing" is extremely problematic, because such a dichotomy reduces the significance of "colored" to contextual while upholding whiteness as a ubiquitous standard by which all else is measured.
I agree. Furthermore, I often hear white people tell me, "You're lucky for being Latino. Us white people have no culture. At least you have a culture." This to me is nothing more than a latent manifestation of exactly what you're talking about. The whole idea of white as normative and ethnic as other. These same people then talk about their Irish identity, or German identity, as if that were something different than the culture of those colored people.

[OldMoney]

These guys that say "your acting black" are reinforcing the negative steryotypes that the imperialist oppressors project upon African Americans. That they speak in ebonics, or rap n play basketball. What about all the black people who are educated, or the blacks in africa and arround the rest of the world who act totaly different than these steryotypes are they not the majority of blacks?



I personally find it uncomfortable when white people "act black". I dont think it mixes well at all.


I understand your dessire to not want to see your culture addapted by stupid imperialist white kids, but it just seems a little selfish. Its only culture, to truly erradicate racism we need to strive towards blending all cultures into one harmonized human experience. I love the dead prez, and I figure they prolly hate me because Im white, but I wont stop listening to thier music.

[Chambered Word]

It's absolutely hilarious to see pasty white kids try to be 'gangsta' in the same manner that it's funny to see cowards acting like they're tough. I don't think it's about racism in that case.

However, to say 'stop acting black' to someone who just likes hiphop is racist because it is implying that behaving in the manner of a black person is degrading. It's similar to the way girls are often allowed to play with trucks and dress like boys but double standards are applied to boys who want to play with dolls and/or dress in a feminine way.

I think telling someone not to act black is just a more subtle way of calling somebody a 'nigger lover', even if most people don't realize it.

[the last donut of the night]

This isn't racism, this is reality.

This isn't to say all Black folks inherently live this way, or white folks inherently live another, but to overlook the disparities that presently exist between whiteness and Blackness, is presenting yourself with a very skewed (if not completely false) reality.

I would argue that the adaptation of Black culture and virtually every other non-white culture into whiteness is the real hidden sphere of racism at work in situations like this. The designation of "colored" (or, more recently, "ethnic") as "distinct" and "whiteness" as "normative" and "all-encompassing" is extremely problematic, because such a dichotomy reduces the significance of "colored" to contextual while upholding whiteness as a ubiquitous standard by which all else is measured.

I think I agree. I don't think I was clear enough in my OP. What I was trying to say is that there is a trend among white youths to pick up these societal norms in which everything else is measured on how different from white it is. The scale is skewed and suddenly us Latinos and Blacks, are somehow different solely because the scale is not based on us. So what I am saying is that when some youths try to cross these cultural, if you say, differences, they are chastized for not fitting in with their whiteness. Not that I'm defending rich, white kids, I'm just observing this.

[counterblast]

These guys that say "your acting black" are reinforcing the negative steryotypes that the imperialist oppressors project upon African Americans.

That they speak in ebonics, or rap n play basketball. What about all the black people who are educated, or the blacks in africa and arround the rest of the world who act totaly different than these steryotypes are they not the majority of blacks?

To attempt to depict Black folks as "educated" still essentializes Blackness as a fixed identity rather than realizing it as a culmination of shared ones, like whiteness.

As long as the Black or Brown or Yellow existence requires any sort of qualifier, it really doesn't matter if you're saying "Black folks are terrible at spelling" or "Black folks are just as articulate as white folks" -- both uphold an equally racist distinction that "imperialist oppressors project upon African Americans."

[the last donut of the night]

To attempt to depict Black folks as "educated" still essentializes Blackness as a fixed identity rather than realizing it as a culmination of shared ones, like whiteness.

As long as the Black or Brown or Yellow existence requires any sort of qualifier, it really doesn't matter if you're saying "Black folks are terrible at spelling" or "Black folks are just as articulate as white folks" -- both uphold an equally racist distinction that "imperialist oppressors project upon African Americans."

I also agree. I mean, a common argument against racism used by many bourgeois people is, "Oh no, we're just as good as white people, etc." Doesn't that imply that there's some level of whiteness others have to work ahead to reach this level?

[Klaatu]

I'm sure many comrades, especially those in the USA, have seen or been part of a situation in which they are chastised (or see others being chastised) for acting in a "black" manner and being called out for not being Black, but white. For example, I for one would be freestyling a bit or just rapping a song I had heard, but I would be called out for not being Black, but being Latino (however, my skin can be quite light for what most people consider to be Latino). Or if one uses "black" slang (ill, mad, dope, etc) they are again called out for it. Now, I see that this shows a hidden sphere of racism in American society because it implies that Blacks have one way of living and whites have another. It implies that the behaviors of the two should be different and that they are somehow irreconcilable. Also, due to the already charged racism in America, these accusations are almost always said in a sneering, punishing tone. It's almost as if whites cannot act the way Blacks supposedly do because it's dirty, or shameful, or strange. Your thoughts on this matter?

However, I would like to point out that in this post, I am not defending white teenagers speaking in ebonics or acting "Black" as a way to let off their racism. I would like to see this as an observation of the use of "racial" culture among youth in the USA.

I think this is just a "teen" thing. You know, innocent adolescence. Teens want to be "cool," but peer pressure all but disappears somewhere in adulthood, because adults have better things to worry about. People outgrow these things. ;)

[PHUNX]

you all seem to fail to realise that race like nationalism is an Illusion born out of human need to categorize things and has no basis in genetics i repeat there is No genetic basis for race. to categorize yourself or someone else as black or white only helps to further this illusion such definitions and the categorizations that follow from them are contradicted by the results of genetic research. no two people on the earth have the same genetic sequence (unless there identical twins or clones) and there are no genes that denote race In fact there are no characteristics, no traits, not even one gene that turns up in all members of one so-called race yet is absent from others.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9YMCKp5myI&feature=related

[PHUNX]

this video is much better is making my point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9IyroYm4n4&feature=related

[counterblast]

there is No genetic basis for race.


There is a social basis for it.

There may be no overall genetic variation between a group of workers and a group of CEOs, but that does not nullify the reality of class based society.

Liberal feel-good movies that argue "we're all the same so let's start acting like it", do nothing to address the social reality of racism.

[Sendo]

There is a social basis for it.

There may be no overall genetic variation between a group of workers and a group of CEOs, but that does not nullify the reality of class based society.

Liberal feel-good movies that argue "we're all the same so let's start acting like it", do nothing to address the social reality of racism.

Race is a bit more complex though. A capitalist is a capitalist anywhere on Earth, but a majority white male in America is quite a different thing in Korea or even in England or Mexico. Race is assigned from the outside, and people often make mistakes about categorization. Someone who is a dark white person could be a light black person to another.

I see your comparison and I like it, but it does fail to capture some nuances of race and the fact that individual's behavior does have an effect. It is institutional, but not purely instutional like class is

[PHUNX]

There is a social basis for it.

There may be no overall genetic variation between a group of workers and a group of CEOs, but that does not nullify the reality of class based society.

Liberal feel-good movies that argue "we're all the same so let's start acting like it", do nothing to address the social reality of racism.

you've completely missed the point im not saying "we're all the same so let's start acting like it" im saying "we are all different so let be individuals" and not follow racial, national, cultural or gender stereotypes

[Devrim]

I think this is just a "teen" thing. You know, innocent adolescence. Teens want to be "cool," but peer pressure all but disappears somewhere in adulthood, because adults have better things to worry about. People outgrow these things. ;)
I think that this is key to this issue. What is often packeged as 'culture' is in fact youth culture. Most working class people, whatever 'culture' they come from have remarkably similar lives.

Devrim

[anticap]

Nothing human is alien to me. I deny that there are various exclusive "cultures" and that I can lay claim only to the one in which I was raised, or the one I currently live in. There is only human culture, and it's all mine.

Look into a crowd and you'll see unique individuals, but they're all human. Look at the global community and you'll see unique sub-communities, but they're all human communities.

I don't like "us/them" thinking, unless "they" are the enemy. The community across town is not my enemy, nor the one across the continent, nor across the ocean. The enemy is that minority, right in our midst, who oppresses us. Eliminate the enemy, who fans the flames of our alleged divisions for his own interests, and we can finally come together and be done with this nonsense.

[black magick hustla]

There is a social basis for it.

Liberal feel-good movies that argue "we're all the same so let's start acting like it", do nothing to address the social reality of racism.

of course not. however, tbh i think people like you make a conscious effort to demacrate those differences rather than actively try to dissolve them.

[Hiero]

you've completely missed the point im not saying "we're all the same so let's start acting like it" im saying "we are all different so let be individuals" and not follow racial, national, cultural or gender stereotypes


But the original problem is something that has to be dealt with when engaged in revolutionary praxis. Any revolutionary action has to take into account the system that created the fantasy that human's are different and belong to groups. This fantasy has real material results, in area like division of labour, the creation of racialised cities, entertainment, culture etc. I assume what counterblast is saying is that society is heavily racaised in some form of tiers maybe, where the platform which one speaks from is usually white. So saying "we are all the same let's just do" means to to do it in an ideaologically dominant fashion.

Though I see dada's point, persistant post-modernism/struturalism of Counter Blasts type can focus to much on this creation of imaginary people's and it's social/material manifestations and thus ignored the primary source of relationship between humans, that is relations of production.

Ultimatly a revolutionary shouldn't act like there are neutural platforms and see the multiple material and imagarinary relations that effect people's livelhoods.

[¿Que?]

Race categories are imposed externally. But it takes more than one person to label you a certain race. It takes quite a few. For this reason, race is considered a social construct. There are internal, subjective race identifications, but they don't hold sway in a system of racial stratification. Race issues are, therefore, not just about difference, but about inequality. The system is stratified in large part along racial lines. There are currently 1 million blacks incarcerated in the United States. I like to imagine one of these people waking up one day, only to realize the illusory nature of race. He goes up to the guard and says,"I have just realized that the racist system that has stolen by freedom is simply a social construct and therefore just an illusion. Well, it's been fun, but I'm going to go home now and see my family." Well, it's pretty rediculous to assume that this man would actually be allowed to go free. Therefore, race, as a social construct is a special kind of illusion. The real kind.

[Crusade]

of course not. however, tbh i think people like you make a conscious effort to demacrate those differences rather than actively try to dissolve them.

I don't think that's the case. I think counterblast's intention is to make sure the issue is addressed in it's entirety, instead of it being written off as merely an issue of class conflict or only a product of capitalism. For example, I was debating with someone on infowars (sorry) about racism and police brutality. Some guy told me racism isn't a problem anymore it's really about class now and me bringing up the idea of white police officers singling out and targeting black people is "divisive" and people like me are the reason racism is a problem. People on Revleft aren't anywhere close to that, but there's a tendency for a small percentage of the left to conveniently dismiss all forms of bigotry as merely a product of the other. This isn't just for racism, but also sexism and homophobia.

I know the point the other posters were making, but I don't think counterblast's posts were made to deliberately emphasize "racial" differences.

[black magick hustla]

I don't think that's the case. I think counterblast's intention is to make sure the issue is addressed in it's entirety, instead of it being written off as merely an issue of class conflict or only a product of capitalism. For example, I was debating with someone on infowars (sorry) about racism and police brutality. Some guy told me racism isn't a problem anymore it's really about class now and me bringing up the idea of white police officers singling out and targeting black people is "divisive" and people like me are the reason racism is a problem. People on Revleft aren't anywhere close to that, but there's a tendency for a small percentage of the left to conveniently dismiss all forms of bigotry as merely a product of the other. This isn't just for racism, but also sexism and homophobia.


I am taking counterblast's post in context with her other posts. The borderline solipsism of her fanatical "post-structuralism" dissolves any attempt to destroy this differences by assuming that its all a battle of subjectivities and end of histories and any attempt to give the issue an economic basis is replied with "that is just white shit". of course, I am a first generation mexican immigrant. so she cannot pull that card on me.

[Devrim]

of course, I am a first generation mexican immigrant. so she cannot pull that card on me.

You have just fallen for 'the White shit'. :)

Devrim

[Robocommie]

I agree. Furthermore, I often hear white people tell me, "You're lucky for being Latino. Us white people have no culture. At least you have a culture." This to me is nothing more than a latent manifestation of exactly what you're talking about. The whole idea of white as normative and ethnic as other. These same people then talk about their Irish identity, or German identity, as if that were something different than the culture of those colored people.

One of the greatest roadblocks to getting an honest dialogue about race and/or ethnicity in this country, I think, is the concept of "whiteness" and the old drive of assimilation it represents. It always drives me nuts when I hear people say, "I'm not really anything, I'm just American."

[¿Que?]

One of the greatest roadblocks to getting an honest dialogue about race and/or ethnicity in this country, I think, is the concept of "whiteness" and the old drive of assimilation it represents. It always drives me nuts when I hear people say, "I'm not really anything, I'm just American."
True that. I think that goes back to what counterblast was saying in regard to white as normative.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Yes I understand what the OP means. I have a friend who calls himself "the blackest white person" and in citing why he is "black" he reinforces all the false negative stereotypes about black people. He calls my black friend "white" because he does not live up to these stereotypes. It's completely racist and ridiculous.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Yeah, I laugh at people when they call me white. I tell them to kiss my Mexican ass.

[tornwarriorx]

I'm sure many comrades, especially those in the USA, have seen or been part of a situation in which they are chastised (or see others being chastised) for acting in a "black" manner and being called out for not being Black, but white. For example, I for one would be freestyling a bit or just rapping a song I had heard, but I would be called out for not being Black, but being Latino (however, my skin can be quite light for what most people consider to be Latino). Or if one uses "black" slang (ill, mad, dope, etc) they are again called out for it. Now, I see that this shows a hidden sphere of racism in American society because it implies that Blacks have one way of living and whites have another. It implies that the behaviors of the two should be different and that they are somehow irreconcilable. Also, due to the already charged racism in America, these accusations are almost always said in a sneering, punishing tone. It's almost as if whites cannot act the way Blacks supposedly do because it's dirty, or shameful, or strange. Your thoughts on this matter?

However, I would like to point out that in this post, I am not defending white teenagers speaking in ebonics or acting "Black" as a way to let off their racism. I would like to see this as an observation of the use of "racial" culture among youth in the USA.

Personally, I think this a case of descrimination against whites. Why shouldn't people be able to talk how they want? It's a matter of African Americans and other minority groups clinging to an identity based soley on race, which we would all agree, is a superficial construct. Personally, I happy to see that most whites do not cling to and identity based off of race, which is a huge step for society, a huge step up from racism. Now, the same is happening with other groups of people. It is for this reason that I dislike the Black Panthers, both the historic and the modern, because it promotes black nationalism. Black nationalism, like white nationalism, is a form of nationalism, and nationalism is an enemy of our cause.